Sep 7 | Michigan

[TomHaverford]

His defenses were pretty good with the New York Giants

Those were Bill Parcell's teams, and Lawrence Taylor is only the greatest defensive player to ever play in the NFL.

I'm just breaking balls here. I know Belicheck is a great coach, I just don't think he's the almighty like everybody else seems to think.

Belicheck was a failure as a head coach in Cleveland and it was looking that way in New England. His first year with the Patriots he was 5-11, and the second year they started off 0-2. Bledsoe goes down, Brady makes his first start in the 3rd game of the 2001 season and the rest is history. Brady took the 31st ranked defense all the way to the Super Bowl in 2011. Great coaches need great players, but I think the guys genius is pretty much over-played.

 

[Emcee77]

Didn't know where to put this but a great read.

Y! SPORTS

Lucc, this was a classic undersell. This is one of the most interesting ND articles I've read in a long time. Love that the staff got insight from Belichick, who is probably the best in the business.

 

[Cackalacky]

Does anyone else think Gardner has a rather long throwing motion. He seems to have to bring the ball back before he goes forward with it. (I am a poor-wannable-scout, so that is why I am asking)

Its odd to me too. Not all the time but there are times where its like a shot put.

 

[wizards8507]

Does anyone else think Gardner has a rather long throwing motion. He seems to have to bring the ball back before he goes forward with it. (I am a poor-wannable-scout, so that is why I am asking)

I don't put much stock in throwing motion and release point and all that at the college level. Case in point: Tim Tebow. Also, Tajh Boyd throws like a shortstop.

 

[aubeirish]

who was Bill Belicheck before Tom Brady? A guy that was fired by the Cleveland Browns and who was 5-11 in his first year in New England.

For all of Belicheck's "defensive genius", he hasn't had a real defense in New England since about 2004. That defense sucks and has sucked for a while now.

He had to replace a lot of personnel every year due to guys seeking better contractual opportunities or retirement. They were not the top defense throughout the years, but they always foundd a way to get the job done with what they have. To me that is the sign of fantastic coaching.

 

[TomHaverford]

He was so dang hard to tackle though.

Yeah, most RB's that play QB are. There's a reason why no college teams recruited Denard to play QB and why not one NFL team gave him a look at QB, and why he was also picked in the 5th round.

a) he cannot throw the ball at all.
b) he's 5'10.5, 195 pounds.
c) he's not a smart football player.

Incredible athlete, but his x's and o's/knowledge of the game is subpar (which is why he went in the 5th round).

 

[Emcee77]

Denard was truly a terrible QB ... but one of the most electric runners I've ever seen. Horribly misused by Hoke and Borges. I really wish he would have transferred when RichRod left.

 

[TomHaverford]

He had to replace a lot of personnel every year due to guys seeking better contractual opportunities or retirement. They were not the top defense throughout the years, but they always foundd a way to get the job done with what they have. To me that is the sign of fantastic coaching.

They get the job done with what they have because they play in a lousy division and they have one of the top 5 greatest QB's that has ever touched a football. Brady has masked a lot of deficiencies in New England for years. You can win the division and get into the playoffs just because of him. They've had trouble in the playoffs with the Ravens and they haven't been able to get past the Giants in Super Bowls because of lack of defense and outside threats at WR.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Yeah, most RB's that play QB are. There's a reason why no college teams recruited Denard to play QB and why not one NFL team gave him a look at QB, and why he was also picked in the 5th round.

a) he cannot throw the ball at all.
b) he's 5'10.5, 195 pounds.
c) he's not a smart football player.

Incredible athlete, but his x's and o's/knowledge of the game is subpar (which is why he went in the 5th round).

So why would he start over Gardner since he was awful according to you? Could it be that Gardner has a long throwing motion, in addition to making bad reads, which leads to overthrowing and interceptions?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

who was Bill Belicheck before Tom Brady? A guy that was fired by the Cleveland Browns and who was 5-11 in his first year in New England.

Wait, so our resident UM fan thinks Belicheck's success is entirely due to TOM BRADY!?

 

[IrishLax]

How is he NOT Vince Youngish?

Devin Garnder has the athletic build of a 4/5 WR. He's a tad smaller than Young, but not much. They've basically got the same speed/athletic profile. Young also sucked at reading defenses and was a sketchy passer, much like Gardner.

The difference, IMO, is that Young had TONS of skill position talent around him. Gardner has a good OL, average RBs, and below average WRs for a BCS level team. So if you take away his individual playmaking ability, I don't know how effective he'll be. I doubt he's able to go all Andrew Luck and calmly move through progressions and make tight, timely throws to the correct guy. If he CAN do that OR the running game is awesome, then I think we're in a world of trouble defensively. Hopefully our O is ready to go for this game, I think we might need 28+ to win it.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

Uhhh Muck Fichigan

That is all I have to add to this conversation

 

[aubeirish]

Yeah, most RB's that play QB are. There's a reason why no college teams recruited Denard to play QB and why not one NFL team gave him a look at QB, and why he was also picked in the 5th round.

a) he cannot throw the ball at all.
b) he's 5'10.5, 195 pounds.
c) he's not a smart football player.

Incredible athlete, but his x's and o's/knowledge of the game is subpar (which is why he went in the 5th round).

In that sense, you are absolutely right. He wasn't a great passing QB. Mostly a scrambler... Can Gardner be more dangerous than him right now, we'll see. He has the potential that's for sure. Only 31.5 hours before our questions are answered haha.

 

[TomHaverford]

Denard was truly a terrible QB ... but one of the most electric runners I've ever seen. Horribly misused by Hoke and Borges. I really wish he would have transferred when RichRod left.

he should have converted to WR/RB as soon as they decided they were going to change the system up. He had 1st round type skills at that position but virtually no experience playing those positions.

Urban Meyer wanted him badly at Florida to play the "Percy Harvin" role, and for good reason. Electrifying talent with the ball in his hands in space.

 

[IrishLax]

who was Bill Belicheck before Tom Brady? A guy that was fired by the Cleveland Browns and who was 5-11 in his first year in New England.

For all of Belicheck's "defensive genius", he hasn't had a real defense in New England since about 2004. That defense sucks and has sucked for a while now.

This is almost bannable level stupid. I mean holy hell dude... Bellichik makes Brady, not the other way around. See: season with Matt Cassel at QB.

 

[Patulski]

Denard could effectively extend passing plays? That's news to me. Gardner is 1,000,000 times better at scrambling and extending pass plays than Denard ever was. Gardner is more dangerous and harder to defend because of this. Denard was one of the most one dimensional QB's that has ever played the game. For all of his athletic gifts as a runner, he was one of the worst scrambling QB's that I have ever seen. Denard didn't know how to keep his eyes downfield to keep safeties from coming off WR's and coming up to stop him from running. He hardly ever scrambled, and when he did decide to tuck and run it was almost always too late. He also ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS sat and sat and sat in the backfield and tried to make something happen with his arm almost as if to prove he could be a passer instead of just taking off and living to fight another down.

Gardner makes bad reads often and that's what has lead to almost all of his interceptions, but he definitely has more accuracy and more talent as a passer. He can push the ball down the field, some of the throws he makes on outs to the sidelines...that takes a big arm. He routinely makes throws in games that Denard Robinson could never dream of making, he's got much more arm talent. His size is also a big advantage, he's 6-4, 215 pounds, Denard was 5-10.5, 195. Literally the only thing Denard had on Devin was 4.4 speed.

It's so funny to see how quickly the UM fans are throwing Denard Robinson under the bus.

And the hyperbole makes it even better: "Gardner is 1,000,000 times better at scrambling".

Uh-huh.

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[T Town Tommy]

Wait, so our resident UM fan thinks Belicheck's success is entirely due to TOM BRADY!?

Yeah... almost too stupid to respond to that. None of the other NFL teams have came after those countless free agents that played for BB. Outside of maybe Pittsburgh, NE has had about as many more guys leave and sign elsewhere in the last ten years. And yet... he still won a lot of Super Bowls.

 

[ryno 24]

So fun fact other than against Pitt (which went into double overtime) Kelly has not won a game in which he has given up more than 20 points. Kind of a scary proposition, but also that is how good his defenses have been

 

[Luckylucci]

Lucc, this was a classic undersell. This is one of the most interesting ND articles I've read in a long time. Love that the staff got insight from Belichick, who is probably the best in the business.

Haha, I thought it was pretty awesome as well. Just didn't take the time to elaborate. Knew most would thoroughly enjoy it.

 

[TomHaverford]

In that sense, you are absolutely right. He wasn't a great passing QB. Mostly a scrambler... Can Gardner be more dangerous than him right now, we'll see. He has the potential that's for sure. Only 31.5 hours before our questions are answered haha.

Denard wasn't really a scrambler. He was a running QB. There is a difference between scrambling off a pass play to pick up yards or buy time for the WR's and get the ball out vs. running on option/read plays or running QB draws/designed runs. Denard was terrific at the latter, horrible at the former.

 

[Cackalacky]

Uhhh Muck Fichigan

That is all I have to add to this conversation

Uhh yeah. I am listening to this on repeat for the next 31 hours

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[T Town Tommy]

Denard wasn't really a scrambler. He was a running QB. There is a difference between scrambling off a pass play to pick up yards or buy time for the WR's and get the ball out vs. running on option/read plays or running QB draws/designed runs. Denard was terrific at the latter, horrible at the former.

If he would have tied his shoes he may have only thrown three INTs against the Irish.

 

[woolybug25]

This is almost bannable level stupid. I mean holy hell dude... Bellichik makes Brady, not the other way around. See: season with Matt Cassel at QB.

Not to mention his blatant ability to ignore the fact that Tom Brady was awful at Michigan. The entire time he was there the fans were calling for Henson to start. Brady was picked in the 6th round for a reason.

 

[NDWorld247]

Those were Bill Parcell's teams, and Lawrence Taylor is only the greatest defensive player to ever play in the NFL.

I'm just breaking balls here. I know Belicheck is a great coach, I just don't think he's the almighty like everybody else seems to think.

Belicheck was a failure as a head coach in Cleveland and it was looking that way in New England. His first year with the Patriots he was 5-11, and the second year they started off 0-2. Bledsoe goes down, Brady makes his first start in the 3rd game of the 2001 season and the rest is history. Brady took the 31st ranked defense all the way to the Super Bowl in 2011. Great coaches need great players, but I think the guys genius is pretty much over-played.

The 2001 St. Louis Rams might disagree with you.

I love this observation from Bill:

What Belichick saw was a system of sound principles but one that fell short in allowing players to use those principles to react to what they were seeing in the moments before a snap. Notre Dame's teaching was a bit regimented.

This staff has always struck me as very rigid. I'm not questioning them, but there comes a point where you have to let your players play.

 

[TomHaverford]

This is almost bannable level stupid. I mean holy hell dude... Bellichik makes Brady, not the other way around. See: season with Matt Cassel at QB.

Oh, you mean the season where Brady tore his ACL and the Pats didn't make the playoffs?

Pats were 16-0 in the regular season the year before, and Cassell was throwing to a Randy Moss still in his prime and a Wes Welker that was just entering his prime. He threw for 21 TD's vs. 11 INT's throwing to those guys. Brady threw for 50 TD's and 8 picks the year before.

Fact: before Brady, Belicheck was a failure in Cleveland and 5-13 in New England.
Fact: Belicheck has never made the playoffs in New England without Tom Brady at QB.

 

[wizards8507]

This is almost bannable level stupid. I mean holy hell dude... Bellichik makes Brady, not the other way around. See: season with Matt Cassel at QB.

That team was really good. They finished 11-5. First 11-5 team to miss the playoffs in something like 25 years. The Chargers won the west at 8-8. The '08 Patriots fell victim to a fluke combination of tiebreakers and unbalance divisions, which had nothing to do with Belichik's inability to coach a Cassel-led team.

 

[phork]

who was Bill Belicheck before Tom Brady? A guy that was fired by the Cleveland Browns and who was 5-11 in his first year in New England.

For all of Belicheck's "defensive genius", he hasn't had a real defense in New England since about 2004. That defense sucks and has sucked for a while now.

For all of Kelly's "offensive genius" he hasn't had a real offense at ND either.

Yeah, most RB's that play QB are. There's a reason why no college teams recruited Denard to play QB and why not one NFL team gave him a look at QB, and why he was also picked in the 5th round.

a) he cannot throw the ball at all.
b) he's 5'10.5, 195 pounds.
c) he's not a smart football player.

Incredible athlete, but his x's and o's/knowledge of the game is subpar (which is why he went in the 5th round).

Denards running ability was to find the tiniest crack and he was gone. I haven't seen anyone able to do that like he did. Gardner by all accounts is an upgrade in every facet except the escapability. Gardner with actual WRs would terrify me, and a running game not headed by Fitz Touissant.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Not to mention his blatant ability to ignore the fact that Tom Brady was awful at Michigan. The entire time he was there the fans were calling for Henson to start. Brady was picked in the 6th round for a reason.

Michigan sucked then and they suck now.

But... back to the game at hand for me.

 

[woolybug25]

Excellent work, Lax.

Getting back to my earlier point, Kelly's 5-8 record against DT quarterbacks is certainly alarming, but who were those losses to? 3 to Andrew Luck, 2 to Denard Robinson, 1 to EJ Manuel, 1 to BJ Daniels, and 1 to Ricky Dobbs. So 6/8 came against two 1st round draft picks and arguably the most explosive CFB player of recent memory. The loss to Dobbs (Navy's best QB since Staubach) was Diaco's first time coaching against the triple option (and the loss clearly wasn't due to an incurable schematic weakness given all the service academies we've whipped since), and USF game was apparently played in the Twilight Zone.

Point being, we don't face a single QB this year who's even remotely as dangerous as Luck, Robinson or Manuel. Gardner has shown nothing yet that indicates he belongs in their company. Maybe he breaks out and launches himself into the Heisman conversation against us on Saturday night. But without a dynamic performance from Gardner, I don't see how UM beats us.

Question... why are we categorizing Andrew Luck as a dual threat QB? He played in a pro set offense and was a pocket passer. Am I missing something (per usual)?

 

[TomHaverford]

Denards running ability was to find the tiniest crack and he was gone. I haven't seen anyone able to do that like he did. Gardner by all accounts is an upgrade in every facet except the escapability. Gardner with actual WRs would terrify me, and a running game not headed by Fitz Touissant.

I agree with this.

Gallon is pretty good and Dileo is a nice complimentary WR, but both of these guys lack size badly. Gallon is 5'8, Dileo is 5'9. Makes the margin of error for a QB really small, they don't have the same kind of catch radius or ups as a 6'3, 6'4 WR.

I'm with you on Fitz Toussaint. I think he'd be a nice back-up RB in previous years at Michigan, but he's not starting material. I'm hoping Derrick Green seizes the job at some point this year.

Michigan is still trying to get the talent level back. Not quite there yet.