Russia Invades Ukraine

BrownerandFry

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This is a good explainer from The Hill on his poll numbers after the invasion of Ukraine:


Basically, shouldn't read too much into polls now, and the ones that really matter will be months from now. Regardless, they are nowhere close to regime change driven by the citizenry... they are much closer to that driven by oligarchs, which is why he has made the strategic moves he has recently. Putin's best exit strategy is to get a ceasefire with Ukraine that he can branded as a "win" that also includes removing sanctions. An extended military campaign or extended sanctions is likely to backfire on him over time as propaganda has a shelf life. For example, things like an extended absence of Russia from FIFA will grate on people. As will economic collapse, loss of jobs, loss of food, loss of American tech, etc. Taking the long view, if people look back at Russia pre-invasion and then contrast it to Russia post-invasion no amount of propaganda will be able to whitewash that things relatively suck and they will put the blame on Putin.
This may be a minority position, but it seems that the security interests of
Ukraine
US
NATO/EU

may be better served by a weakened, less credible, more suspect Putin,
getting stares from the Kleptocrats
the parents of the dead soldiers
the parents of the conscripts

We may all be better off with him remaining as the titular leader, albeit as a spayed cat.
 

Sea Turtle

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This is a good explainer from The Hill on his poll numbers after the invasion of Ukraine:


Basically, shouldn't read too much into polls now, and the ones that really matter will be months from now. Regardless, they are nowhere close to regime change driven by the citizenry... they are much closer to that driven by oligarchs, which is why he has made the strategic moves he has recently. Putin's best exit strategy is to get a ceasefire with Ukraine that he can branded as a "win" that also includes removing sanctions. An extended military campaign or extended sanctions is likely to backfire on him over time as propaganda has a shelf life. For example, things like an extended absence of Russia from FIFA will grate on people. As will economic collapse, loss of jobs, loss of food, loss of American tech, etc. Taking the long view, if people look back at Russia pre-invasion and then contrast it to Russia post-invasion no amount of propaganda will be able to whitewash that things relatively suck and they will put the blame on Putin.
So they annex Crimea and his popularity soars. 58% approved of the Ukraine war and only 23% opposed it. Kind of tells you the mindset of the Russian people.

This may be Putin's war but the Russian people seem happy to ride along.
 

IrishLax

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So they annex Crimea and his popularity soars. 58% approved of the Ukraine war and only 23% opposed it. Kind of tells you the mindset of the Russian people.

This may be Putin's war but the Russian people seem happy to ride along.
The sanctions post-Crimea had virtually no effect on the Russian people or Putin. They absolutely, 100% have been conditioned over the years to favor Russian territorial expansion. They will absolutely view conquest -- militarily or otherwise -- as a positive. Most of them support war in Ukraine.

It will only hurt Putin when the people who support the war start seeing prolonged negative effects from the war. Then they will say "Why did we invade Ukraine? The economy is shit now, everything is worse, etc." Then they will start to question thing. And then they will change their opinion.

The average Russian has absolutely no idea what is happening in Ukraine right now, nor any reason to think to question it. The picture being painted for them is that they are at war with Nazis to liberate people and that it is going exceptionally well.
 

PerthDomer

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The sanctions post-Crimea had virtually no effect on the Russian people or Putin. They absolutely, 100% have been conditioned over the years to favor Russian territorial expansion. They will absolutely view conquest -- militarily or otherwise -- as a positive. Most of them support war in Ukraine.

It will only hurt Putin when the people who support the war start seeing prolonged negative effects from the war. Then they will say "Why did we invade Ukraine? The economy is shit now, everything is worse, etc." Then they will start to question thing. And then they will change their opinion.

The average Russian has absolutely no idea what is happening in Ukraine right now, nor any reason to think to question it. The picture being painted for them is that they are at war with Nazis to liberate people and that it is going exceptionally well.
The body bags have to rise, the sanctions need more time, and the population needs time. If Putin keeps losing 10k plus soldiers a month while giving up territory and the economy keeps wobbling it'd still probably take months.

The thing is, their military is incompetent. There's no way they can pull out of the Kiev area, reconstitute their forces, and move them to other fronts faster than the Ukranians can do so. So not only will the retreating forces around Kiev lose a ton of men/supplies, Ukraine will reinforce the south or east faster than the Russians.

The East is also WW1 level fortified. It'll take a lot of dead Russians to make any gains there.
 

Irish#1

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The sanctions post-Crimea had virtually no effect on the Russian people or Putin. They absolutely, 100% have been conditioned over the years to favor Russian territorial expansion. They will absolutely view conquest -- militarily or otherwise -- as a positive. Most of them support war in Ukraine.

It will only hurt Putin when the people who support the war start seeing prolonged negative effects from the war. Then they will say "Why did we invade Ukraine? The economy is shit now, everything is worse, etc." Then they will start to question thing. And then they will change their opinion.

The average Russian has absolutely no idea what is happening in Ukraine right now, nor any reason to think to question it. The picture being painted for them is that they are at war with Nazis to liberate people and that it is going exceptionally well.
Just need to give the sanctions enough time that the shelves in the stores have nothing but baking soda and white vinegar. Support will wane.
 

Ndaccountant

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Just need to give the sanctions enough time that the shelves in the stores have nothing but baking soda and white vinegar. Support will wane.
While sanctions will have significant consequences, I am not sure it's going to be as negative as some may think. It will take time for additional trading partners to emerge, but there are many countries that are not imposing sanctions and can provide substitutes in time. Just look at the visual below to see all the other countries Russia can deal with. This doesn't mean the sanctions won't have an impact, but the longer this goes on, the greater the chance other countries develop increased trading relationships.


54644781-10550811-image-a-137_1645789878123.jpg
 

IrishLax

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While sanctions will have significant consequences, I am not sure it's going to be as negative as some may think. It will take time for additional trading partners to emerge, but there are many countries that are not imposing sanctions and can provide substitutes in time. Just look at the visual below to see all the other countries Russia can deal with. This doesn't mean the sanctions won't have an impact, but the longer this goes on, the greater the chance other countries develop increased trading relationships.


54644781-10550811-image-a-137_1645789878123.jpg
That map shows that virtually every developed, major economy -- except the BRIC block that already existed -- is imposing sanctions.
 

IrishLax

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Impossible to think sanctions will not severely limit Russia.
It will be a little brother to China on the international scale,
and a Venezuela-type shrunken economy on the domestic scale.

Here is a real good read, by a Russian journalist who interviewed Russian elites:

“Now we're going to f*ck them all.” What's happening in Russia's elites after a month of war

“All these personal sanctions cement the elites. Everyone who was thinking about a new life understands that, for the next 10-15 years at least, their lives are concentrated in Russia, their children will study in Russia, their families will live in Russia. These people feel offended. They will not overthrow anyone, but will build their lives here," says a high-ranking source in one of the sanctioned state companies.

tldr -
Short-term: Lots of rah rah Russia
Mid to Long-term: Nowhere to go
I take most of this at face value, especially this part:
Though officially Russia is conducting not a war but a "special operation," Russian state propaganda is working at full capacity. State channels are airing almost exclusively news programs based on defense ministry briefings and other official information, as well as propaganda talk shows. The population is being brainwashed into believing that Russia is fighting Nazis who themselves had prepared an attack on the Donbass. To cause even more fear, stories are being told about Ukrainian biolaboratories, where biological weapons against the Slavs were allegedly being created with the support of the United States.

Propaganda is a hell of a drug. Works on everyone, not just unique to Russians. If you control the information, you control the people.
 

NorthDakota

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That map shows that virtually every developed, major economy -- except the BRIC block that already existed -- is imposing sanctions.
Will be interesting to see how they (the Russian govt) handle things and how the Russian people handle things. Comes down to priorities I suppose and how long it goes on.

Also, probably a stupid question....but what is to stop a country like India or China just importing stuff on Russia's behalf if this becomes a long term thing.
 

Irish#1

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Do you have a source for this because I cant actually believe it.
CNN is reporting that the assault on Kyiv has abated. It doesn't mention withdrawing al the way to Belarus. Talks have resumed.
 

notredomer23

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Do you have a source for this because I cant actually believe it.
Liveuamap.com does a good job of real time updates. Essentially all that red in the highlighted area is gonna be repositioned to Donbas and Luhansk in the coming weeks I'd guess. Maybe more. Unclear what they will do in Kharkiv where Ukraine can now reposition too.

I don't think they've been pushed back to Belarus yet, but the Ukrainians have taken back 50+ towns/cities in the last couple days including Hostemel which I think was a major point of interest for the Russians.
1648830617346.png
 

BrownerandFry

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Liveuamap.com does a good job of real time updates. Essentially all that red in the highlighted area is gonna be repositioned to Donbas and Luhansk in the coming weeks I'd guess. Maybe more. Unclear what they will do in Kharkiv where Ukraine can now reposition too.

I don't think they've been pushed back to Belarus yet, but the Ukrainians have taken back 50+ towns/cities in the last couple days including Hostemel which I think was a major point of interest for the Russians.
View attachment 3050506
One wonders if an old sports buzzword is apropos:

"Mo" seems to have shifted to the Ukrainian Freedom Fighters. Seems

the next question is do the Russian INVADERS have any player or play to reclaim "Mo?"
 

PerthDomer

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One wonders if an old sports buzzword is apropos:

"Mo" seems to have shifted to the Ukrainian Freedom Fighters. Seems

the next question is do the Russian INVADERS have any player or play to reclaim "Mo?"
You also have to wonder if Russia really wants troops in the east to hear from New comrades about getting shredded in Kiev. Ukraine's geography also lets them reposition to the south/east faster than Russia. So they can make a push with their Kievan defenders before the Russians reinforce East/South. Russia's best strategy now seems to be throwing bodies at the Donna's and hoping to overwhelm the Ukranians. That can't be great for morale either.
 

NDdomer2

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hmm well i guess there could also be one other reason for leaving.

i for one thought an agreement would have been reached or a victory from russia at this point.

The next month should be interesting.
 

NorthDakota

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hmm well i guess there could also be one other reason for leaving.

i for one thought an agreement would have been reached or a victory from russia at this point.

The next month should be interesting.
Same. Either way, still horrible what's been happening. I had read that Russia has conscripted another 130K. Curious if that's a signal of anything further (if true). Is that replacing losses or letting them free up more (apparently poorly) trained troops?

Big kudos to Ukraine. Maybe fighting between countries that don't have American style airpoewer is just bloody. Maybe Russia is just that incompetent too.
 

PerthDomer

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Same. Either way, still horrible what's been happening. I had read that Russia has conscripted another 130K. Curious if that's a signal of anything further (if true). Is that replacing losses or letting them free up more (apparently poorly) trained troops?

Big kudos to Ukraine. Maybe fighting between countries that don't have American style airpoewer is just bloody. Maybe Russia is just that incompetent too.
April 1 is conscription day, so this is normal for them. The new conscripts need quite a bit of training before they can be used. Their issue is the old conscripts are supposed to be able to cycle out soon and likely get retained through stop loss. They're also preferentially sending professional troops from other borders to the front and using conscripts to man those areas. The issue is they're to the point they either need to lean heavily on conscripts, reserves, or mercenaries. As this progresses the losses will get more and more politically painful as they shift to conscripts who officially aren't there (and who aren't great at fighting)
 

NorthDakota

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April 1 is conscription day, so this is normal for them. The new conscripts need quite a bit of training before they can be used. Their issue is the old conscripts are supposed to be able to cycle out soon and likely get retained through stop loss. They're also preferentially sending professional troops from other borders to the front and using conscripts to man those areas. The issue is they're to the point they either need to lean heavily on conscripts, reserves, or mercenaries. As this progresses the losses will get more and more politically painful as they shift to conscripts who officially aren't there (and who aren't great at fighting)
I did not know that. The more ya know..but...I figured they wouldn't just give kids guns and wish them good luck. Sorta figured that means they'd just use them for training and boring assignments in the calm areas of Russia.

End of the day, Russia has a decent number of people and what not. Hope they all get it figured out. Sad deal over there.
 

BrownerandFry

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Putin is acting like a D-1 coach to build up his roster

EARLY ENTRY (cf. Sonny Styles) CONSCRIPTS 150,000
(premature conscription)

GRAD TRANSFERS
WAGNER Group, experienced, veterans*

UNERGRAD TRANSFERS
Syrians

Vlad got roster issues

*The Geneva conventions are a nice concept, though occasionally honored in the breach.
If our company in Vietnam had ever caught any Wagner Group operatives,
well, I mean, DAMN!
 

NorthDakota

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Putin is acting like a D-1 coach to build up his roster

EARLY ENTRY (cf. Sonny Styles) CONSCRIPTS 150,000
(premature conscription)

GRAD TRANSFERS
WAGNER Group, experienced, veterans*

UNERGRAD TRANSFERS
Syrians

Vlad got roster issues

*The Geneva conventions are a nice concept, though occasionally honored in the breach.
If our company in Vietnam had ever caught any Wagner Group operatives,
well, I mean, DAMN!
I'm confused by your post. Do we respect captured enemy combatants or not?
 

PerthDomer

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Putin is acting like a D-1 coach to build up his roster

EARLY ENTRY (cf. Sonny Styles) CONSCRIPTS 150,000
(premature conscription)

GRAD TRANSFERS
WAGNER Group, experienced, veterans*

UNERGRAD TRANSFERS
Syrians

Vlad got roster issues

*The Geneva conventions are a nice concept, though occasionally honored in the breach.
If our company in Vietnam had ever caught any Wagner Group operatives,
well, I mean, DAMN!
Their real issue is that every new soldier they throw in is less good than the ones they lose and they don't have unlimited equipment. Russia really can't achieve much more strategically, but the nature of how information flows likely means Vlad won't figure that out for a few months when they're down to seeing if they have any walk ons who can fill bout the roster.
 

BrownerandFry

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Christ's Vicar, Pope Francis, gets direct and unequivocal about Putin's invasion:


"some potentate, sadly caught up in anachronistic claims of nationalist interests, is provoking and fomenting conflicts"

and much much more. Let your light shine Francis, let your light shine!
 
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