Rumored Violations

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GoIrish41

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Correction, this person isn't on council but knows someone who is. And if you don't think this kind of stuff gets leaked then you're living in fantasy land.

So the person on the council told the person who put this on a message board ... I see no difference between that and just skipping the middle man and posting it himself. I was under the impression that the institution's desire for a spotless reputation compelled them to do everything that they are doing with regard to this investigation. Leaking this flies in the face of all of that, IMHO. But, that may be just my view from Fantasy Land.
 

palinurus

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Thanks. Hopefully they meet on Mondays and they get this cleared up today.

Also, I find it kinda ironic that they take academic integrity so seriously that immediate suspensions and harsh statements (vacating wins, etc) were rushed, but they have no sense of urgency in getting the counsel decisions made. I mean, this is a big deal for the university. Why didn't they call the counsel members and get an idea of when the soonest possible time for them to meet? In my opinion, there is no reason to simply not rush the meeting because of sticking to a schedule. Get this finalized one way or the other.

Yeah, I kind of agree. Except they may be concerned that, if they rush it, they'll get an earful of "sure, when it's the football team involved, it's all hands on deck; otherwise, some lowly lit student is left to wonder for a month whether his future is destroyed." This way the university can say, "We did it the way we always do it; no rush; thorough review; fair consideration."
 

Booslum31

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Correction, this person isn't on council but knows someone who is. And if you don't think this kind of stuff gets leaked then you're living in fantasy land.

I hear ya Shade but you have to admit that things have been pretty tight on this thing. There are over 4,000 posts of conjecture here as proof. If you think about the profile of those that might sign up to be on these types of committees...they probably take their Credo (which would include descretion) pretty damn seriously.
 

BGIF

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So the person on the council told the person who put this on a message board ... I see no difference between that and just skipping the middle man and posting it himself. I was under the impression that the institution's desire for a spotless reputation compelled them to do everything that they are doing with regard to this investigation. Leaking this flies in the face of all of that, IMHO. But, that may be just my view from Fantasy Land.

You're not alone.

Jenkins press release spoke of integrity.
 
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dwshade

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I hear ya Shade but you have to admit that things have been pretty tight on this thing. There are over 4,000 posts of conjecture here as proof. If you think about the profile of those that might sign up to be on these types of committees...they probably take their Credo (which would include descretion) pretty damn seriously.

The one thing that has been a constant in this is that Russell was not accused of cheating and that he would be reinstated. I'm sure people take their role on these committee's seriously but we're talking about top of the line ND football players here. No way people aren't talking to a friend or friends. That's just human nature especially when you are talking about college students.
 

magogian

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From a poster over at II. This is too important to be kept to one site:

I'm a member of the Council of the College of Engineering and our annual meeting was this past Thursday through Saturday. At the dinner on Thursday, I sat at a table with an executive from Student Affairs. We talked at length about what is going on and the process.

Although I am going to intentionally leave out any reference to this person or their title, I will pass along what was discussed. Note that no names were mentioned, so I can't give you specifics on each player.

1st - the evidence that lead to this investigation was discovered by a faculty member, but there is no evidence to suggest that any University employee at any level was involved. This was strictly an issue between student tutors and students. This means that the need to vacate wins is highly unlikely but not impossible.

2nd - the 5 football players are not the only students involved.

3rd - the investigation was completed early last week.

4th - the judicial process in accordance with the Honor Code didn't begin until late last week upon conclusion of the investigation (i.e. the gathering of evidence).

5th - the judicial process is anticipated to take 5 - 7 business days at most, which means concluding no later than this Thursday. The panel includes faculty, administration and students. Because of student involvement, it couldn't have begun prior to last Tuesday when classes began regardless of how quickly the investigation concluded. For everyone complaining that this is taking too long, you need to relax. There was absolutely nothing ND could have done to speed this up without breaking their own pre-established rules which would itself be an NCAA violation.

6th - there appear to be 2 alleged infractions: Cheating (having someone else do a student's work) and Silence (knowing of the infraction but not reporting). The first would require an F for the course and possible one semester expulsion for a first offense. The second would most likely be a slap on the wrist and "time served". In other words, the players that cheated would be out at least 3 - 6 games if not the full season. Those that were Silent would likely be reinstated immediately.

7th - any student-athletes involved will receive the EXACT same punishment as any students involved for the same offense. In other words, no more and no less punishment with the obvious exception being playing time.

Based upon my conversation with this person, I'm cautiously optimistic that only 1 or 2 actually are accused of cheating. The majority appear to have known but not reported.

Now to the on-campus rumor mill. Russell isn't one accused of cheating. It was his ex-girlfriend that was the tutor and thus he knew what was going on. It appears that Williams and/or Daniels are the likely suspects, but this is pure rumor. It also appears to have occurred several semesters prior to now.

As for the critics of the University, I shall affectionately and collectively refer to them as Jon Snow because "You know nothing!" ND is handling this EXACTLY as they should in accordance with the Honor Code.

My conclusion is that we'll know tomorrow or at worst by Thursday and most of the 5 will be playing against Michigan. This is purely my guess based upon the discussions I had.
 

dwshade

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That I buy, because I've been getting second/third hand information the same way.

What I didn't buy was someone on the council/committee making a post on a public forum.

That was my bad. I read his post wrong the first time.
 

Grahambo

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So the person on the council told the person who put this on a message board ... I see no difference between that and just skipping the middle man and posting it himself. I was under the impression that the institution's desire for a spotless reputation compelled them to do everything that they are doing with regard to this investigation. Leaking this flies in the face of all of that, IMHO. But, that may be just my view from Fantasy Land.


Sadly, everything gets leaked. Even some national security type information.


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ep1987

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Nothing was 'leaked' per se.

The investigation into academic fraud has been announced by the university and it was obviously going to follow protocol.

The only new information is that not everybody involved is accused of cheating; failure to report dishonesty is also being looked at.

If the rumours are true about KR's involvement then regardless of standard practice this is why Notre Dame will suffer in recruiting. Knowing that your GF was possibly overstepping her proof-reading duties (in some cases with fellow athletes) and not informing administration is what 99.9% of people would have done.
 

palinurus

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Nothing was 'leaked' per se.

The investigation into academic fraud has been announced by the university and it was obviously going to follow protocol.

The only new information is that not everybody involved is accused of cheating; failure to report dishonesty is also being looked at.

If the rumours are true about KR's involvement then regardless of standard practice this is why Notre Dame will suffer in recruiting. Knowing that your GF was possibly overstepping her proof-reading duties (in some cases with fellow athletes) and not informing administration is what 99.9% of people would have done.


Gee, I don't agree. I think it's good to have high standards and I would promote this to recruits, but esp. to their parents. Besides, I don't think kids will decide against going to Notre Dame for fear that they may have to cover up cheating by someone they know and don't want to be put on the spot. I bet lots of schools have such a code; just damn few of them actually enforce it.
 
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dang227

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Nothing was 'leaked' per se.



The investigation into academic fraud has been announced by the university and it was obviously going to follow protocol.



The only new information is that not everybody involved is accused of cheating; failure to report dishonesty is also being looked at.



If the rumours are true about KR's involvement then regardless of standard practice this is why Notre Dame will suffer in recruiting. Knowing that your GF was possibly overstepping her proof-reading duties (in some cases with fellow athletes) and not informing administration is what 99.9% of people would have done.


Yep. You don't think Urban, Hoke, et al will use this to negatively recruit ND even more. It is absolutelyridiculous someone would miss a game just because they knew someone else cheated.


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palinurus

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Yep. You don't think Urban, Hoke, et al will use this to negatively recruit ND even more. It is absolutelyridiculous someone would miss a game just because they knew someone else cheated.


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I may be wrong, but how would that negative recruiting go? Hoke: "You don't want to go to Notre Dame. They have moral standards there. Come to Michigan." ?

Not really being a smartass, but I think you can promote high standards, or sink to the dregs with mostly everyone else.
 

dang227

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I may be wrong, but how would that negative recruiting go? Hoke: "You don't want to go to Notre Dame. They have moral standards there. Come to Michigan." ?



Not really being a smartass, but I think you can promote high standards, or sink to the dregs with mostly everyone else.


I am all for moral standards. Big part of the reason I love ND but I think this is taking it a little far. I can see impressionable high school kids be scared off by things like this. Just my 2 cents.


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ginman

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Poster on II says he is student involved with council. Says everything should be wrapped up by Thursday, maybe earlier. Says this involved other students other than just football players. Two offenses being looked at are cheating and not divulging knowing of cheating. Cheating would mean automatic F for course so any player would be done. For not divulging knowing it would essentially be "time served." Meaning player could then be reinstated. From his comments Russell appears to be OK as it was his ex-girlfriend who was tutor in question. Williams and Daniels are an unknown at this time. Says these infractions occurred several semesters ago. Thinks some of the five will be playing against Michigan.

no rush
 

IrishFaninTX

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Just saw on Facebook a guy posted that K Russell and DD have both been cleared and will be back tomorrow. The guy said he heard it from an alum who has connections. TIFWIW!
 

woolybug25

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I may be wrong, but how would that negative recruiting go? Hoke: "You don't want to go to Notre Dame. They have moral standards there. Come to Michigan." ?

Not really being a smartass, but I think you can promote high standards, or sink to the dregs with mostly everyone else.

It would go like this:

Hoke: "Man, Notre Dame is a fine school. Have you considered how much more rigorous they are on athletes?"

Recruit: "Yeah, but that's what I want. Education is important to me".

Hoke: "I hear you, and that's why a lot of people come to Michigan. We are a great academic institution. I think we are just as good as Notre Dame in that department (insert some exaggerated stat or ranking that puts them near us). The big difference is that we protect our athletes. You know what they did to KRussel last year, right?

Recruit: "Well... he cheated, didn't he?"

Hoke: "Haha... hell son... he just had knowledge of another player cheating. Can you believe that?!?!"

Recruit: "wow"

Hoke: "Well, it's not a first for them... they suspended their starting QB after he took them to a title game. We put players first here at Michigan, son."

That's pretty much how that conversation goes. You can insert Urban, Saban, Dantonio, Sark and anybody else we recruit against. You're crazy if you think 17 year old recruits will conceptualize integrity. They don't give two sh!ts about that.
 
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koonja

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Just saw on Facebook a guy posted that K Russell and DD have both been cleared and will be back tomorrow. The guy said he heard it from an alum who has connections. TIFWIW!

Not picking on you because I've passed along more than enough rumors about being players being cleared.

But at this point, I have more faith in my ability to please a women than any of these source's timelines actually coming true.
 

TheSunIsRising

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It would go like this:

Hoke: "Man, Notre Dame is a fine school. Have you considered how much more rigorous they are on athletes?"

Recruit: "Yeah, but that's what I want. Education is important to me".

Hoke: "I hear you, and that's why a lot of people come to Michigan. We are a great academic institution. I think we are just as good as Notre Dame in that department (insert some exaggerated stat or ranking that puts them near us). The big difference is that we protect our athletes. You know what they did to KRussel last year, right?

Recruit: "Well... he cheated, didn't he?"

Hoke: "Haha... hell son... he just had knowledge of another player cheating. Can you believe that?!?!"

Recruit: "wow"

Hoke: "Well, it's not a first for them... they suspended their starting QB after he took them to a title game. We put players first here at Michigan, son."

That's pretty much how that conversation goes. You can insert Urban, Saban, Dantonio, Sark and anybody else we recruit against. You're crazy if you think 17 year old recruits will conceptualize integrity. They don't give two sh!ts about that.

That can't be verbatim. Surely he would refer in his recruiting pitch to the fact that he 'wears hot dog water as cologne'.
 

peoriairish

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He played baseball for ND in the 70's.

I know. He has some solid connections. I was saying it somewhat facetiously cause we like to bash on BBNG. But him confirming it makes me believe it as true as well.
 

ginman

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Not picking on you because I've passed along more than enough rumors about being players being cleared.

But at this point, I have more faith in my ability to please a women than any of these source's timelines actually coming true.

Well, I would hope so!
 

palinurus

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It would go like this:

Hoke: "Man, Notre Dame is a fine school. Have you considered how much more rigorous they are on athletes?"

Recruit: "Yeah, but that's what I want. Education is important to me".

Hoke: "I hear you, and that's why a lot of people come to Michigan. We are a great academic institution. I think we are just as good as Notre Dame in that department (insert some exaggerated stat or ranking that puts them near us). The big difference is that we protect our athletes. You know what they did to KRussel last year, right?

Recruit: "Well... he cheated, didn't he?"

Hoke: "Haha... hell son... he just had knowledge of another player cheating. Can you believe that?!?!"

Recruit: "wow"

Hoke: "Well, it's not a first for them... they suspended their starting QB after he took them to a title game. We put players first here at Michigan, son."

That's pretty much how that conversation goes. You can insert Urban, Saban, Dantonio, Sark and anybody else we recruit against. You're crazy if you think 17 year old recruits will conceptualize integrity. They don't give two sh!ts about that.

I said I might be wrong, and I might be crazy, but if I'm the parent listening to that, I say, "Coach Hoke, it sounds like you all cut a lot of corners when it comes to standards and principle. Get the fuck out of my house, you piece of shit Michigan catamite."
 

jimmymac

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Not sure if it matters, but saw KVR in the student center studying today. Felt a little creepy lol and not sure if note but he was there
 
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