RIP Muhammad Ali

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Bogtrotter07

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Muhammad Ali, boxing champion and global good-will ambassador, dies at 74

Muhammad Ali, boxing champion and global good-will ambassador, dies at 74

Muhammad Ali, the charismatic three-time heavyweight boxing champion of the world and Olympic gold medalist who transcended the world of sports to become a symbol of the antiwar movement of the 1960s and ultimately a global ambassador for cross-cultural understanding, died Friday night at a hospital in Phoenix, where he was living. He was 74.
 

GoIrish41

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GoldenDome

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Young, successful and outwardly charismatic black man in a culture of institutional racism purely because the color of his skin is a great recipe for hatred.
 
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koonja

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Rope-a-dope!

That's a sweet video, I've never seen Ali perform anything, this was about as much video as I've ever seen of him. So I'm intrigued by him as a 'performer' because of that shake at the end lol.
 

ACamp1900

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The "coward" label is only warranted if you were brave enough to serve, by choice or draft. Civilians shouldn't be able to call the guy a coward IMO, and they should can the "well I totally would have went" BS to defend their stance if they choose that.

Ali was many things, and although a group of people are entitled to call him a coward, I'm certainly not, and won't here.

I don't think anyone here called him anything.. To be clear.... Lax shared his experiences with that topic, and since I had similar experiences I shared mine... He obviously had a great impact on many... Rip
 

kmoose

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Great boxer, coward of a man.

Nonsense! That man stood toe to toe in the ring with guys who could take your head off with one punch. I disagree with his conscientious objector stance, and I wish he had not done it. But he was no coward.
 

dshans

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I'm not here to debate Clay/Ali's place in the annals of "The Sweet Science" history. While I admit that there is some "science" connected to just how to pummel one's opponent to best bounce the brain about brain pan, it is far, far from sweet.

I am clearly not a fan of boxing. To strain, strive and train to be the best is admirable.

His choice to align himself with The Nation of Islam, change his name, and resist [I reject the term "dodge" in his case] the Draft was personal.

His resistance and his rationale behind it was not cowardly; it was heroic and inspirational to many, myself included. He was stripped of his hard and well earned title. He was exposed to the very real possibility of incarceration in a federal prison.

He stood his ground.

No rope-a-dope.
 

dwshade

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Our families grew up in the same city, Louisville. I moved to Atlanta in high school. Probably about 25 years ago I was back in Louisville visiting my grandmother who was ill and in the hospital. Ali's aunt was in the next room where he was visiting her. I was in my grandmother's room with two aunts and my cousin who was only 8 years old at the time. As Ali was leaving his aunt he stopped at the door of our room and looked in. He smiled and gave a wave. My cousin was in awe (as we all were) and Ali noticed my cousin and gave him a wink. He couldn't have been more gracious. Just a sweet gentleman.
 

Bishop2b5

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I had just watched the Ali/Foreman fight last week for probably the 20th time. It's an absolute masterpiece of both strategy and tactics. I can well remember being 14 when the fight took place and genuinely fearing that Foreman might actually kill Ali in the ring. The idea that Ali could win that fight or even go the distance was unthinkable. Even now having watched the fight so many times, I'm still amazed at the amazing talent and brilliance of the man in a ring. RIP Champ.
 

woolybug25

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Great boxer, coward of a man.

I think it's cowardly to not have the will power to not speak ill of someone immediately in their passing. Most people are taught that you respect people who pass, especially someone that added so much to society. It's the kind of courtesy you give others, as you should expect it from others for yourself.

It shows a lack of class.





I've met the man on many occasions and wish I could have met him before the onset of Parkinson's. I won't speak to him as a man (see above), but he was once the most famous man on the planet. RIP champ.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Ali was before my time, so I have no opinion on his an athlete. But growing up, I was taught by grandfather (who was a veteran) that Cassius Clay was a draft dodger and a coward.

Since then, always been interesting to see how many people have a completely opposite opinion of him.

Okay, now I have some words.

Lax you know I love you like a brother; no disrespect for you or you Grandfather.

I knew a couple of investors from the original syndicate that put together the financing to bring Cassius from a skinny Golden Gloves Champion to an Olympic Champion and then the unanimous World Heavyweight Champion.

Ali was always a complex man. He was entirely shaped by a lifetime of being told what he couldn't do. Which, for a young black man in Louisville, KY, in the '40's and '50's was a whole lot. Regardless of any of his views, and whether you look at them in the context of their time, or with 20/20 hindsight, he was a thinking man, of character, who always went with his principles, and followed through with his commitments. I don't know if he ever gave less than his best. Which is reason for admiration alone.

I know for a fact, from first hand witness accounts that he put up with things that nobody on this board would tolerate, and most wouldn't believe could ever happen.

There is a story about Ali returning from Rome, with the Gold Medal, American's waving flags with great adulation, and then being refused a seat in a diner in his home town, Louisville, for an off-rush hour breakfast with his management team. The story goes on to outline how he threw his Gold Medal in the Ohio River. The story is a bit more complicated than that, and the insult(s) Ali faced were worse, much more prevalent, and pernicious than that, but it captures the idea.

What Ali represented in small part, (this is a way oversimplification) from the view I have always had, is a strong persona, with the drive and ego to fight his way to the absolute top of his profession. It wasn't good enough for him to win, there had to be no doubt about it. And he had to do it with perfection and style.

And his style - it became the embodiment of his drive to the top, and his many other complex feelings, and the hurt he experienced at being treated like a second class citizen. I think the love for him as a boxer, and the hate expressed toward him as an independent black man were so intolerable that they fed the fire within him, and resulted in the absolute incredible athleticism, and flamboyant showman that emerged.

But I know he really had a difficult time with a number of things. As he explored Islam, he explored true Islam, which is a religion of peace. He found great comfort in his good friend Malcom X. He was there for all that subterfuge between the warring Muslim factions, saw FBI involvement, government dirty tricks, and was astute enough to see who was benefiting from the Viet Nam war, and who was paying for it.

Beyond any conversation about communism, dominoes, patriotism, or any other pro government position, the perception was that African-American males were being drafted disproportionately, killed by the bushels, compared to their white counterparts.

The truth is that the poor and under-educated, were dying at much higher rates than the children of wealthy upper-class families. We can debate for hours what 'really' happened but the perception of the day prevailed. And that is what is important.

In my advanced early education, it was because of the anti-war stance of Ali, and believe me he suffered greatly from decisions he made to follow his conscience, that I learned that Ho Chi Min was a great fan of Democracy, and the US. He tried to establish good communications and a relationship with the US from the Wilson Administration to the Truman Administration, with no response from the US. In fact the Proclamation of Independence of the Democratic Republic of Viet Nam was modeled closely after the American Declaration of Independence.

So he saw the war as unnecessary and inexpedient. Further, he had a pretty good idea of who was profiting from the war. It didn't help that news reports were coming out that Ladybird Johnson owned a significant amount of First Boston Bank shares, which in turn bought Bell Helicopter out of receivership. Bell of course made all of our favorites, the Huey (UH1). Every Huey that got shot down over Viet Nam, in fact made the President of the United States richer. These are historical facts that are beyond dispute, and were unknown to most Americans at the time.

I remember that my father was mildly against Ali resisting induction at the time, but once he found out about the business dealings, he changed his tune totally.

So it was a complex time, and Ali was a complex, intelligent man.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Great boxer, coward of a man.



For a time, Ali continued to face public pressure to accept service. During his four years of court battles, he was given opportunities to recant, apologize and join the military in an entertainment capacity — to perform for the troops and cameras and show off his own signature persona. He declined, and some of his allies turned against him.

Without recanting your post, you show yourself off as an idiot.

I volunteered and I fought. Not because I believed in some patriotic dogma, but because I first tried to better myself, and then when I was dragged into it, I fought for my brothers, and myself. No one else. None of us ever called someone who chose not to fight a coward.

Ever.

Ironically, and I wasn't going to say anything, Ali had a really low IQ as tested. I am clear today that it would turn out that cultural bias was a major problem with getting an accurate score. But never the less, Mohammed's IQ was tested in the mid-seventies, which puts him in the bottom three percent of the population.

Mohammed Ali was for many decades the most recognized sports personality on the planet, and for quite a while the most recognized American throughout the world. He had a significant effect on the civil rights movement, anti-war movement, the war on poverty and a myriad of other human rights issues. Studies show he actually improved perception of the US abroad, even while he was embroiled in opposition with the government.

To summarize :

  • Ali was man that could have been considered 'mentally disabled,' had a greater positive affect on the world than almost anyone else, during his lifetime.
  • Ali stood for his convictions even when he was offered many easy outs. He wouldn't abandon his principles or positions, no matter how much wealth they threw at him.
  • They caved, showing their dubious integrity. The charges against Ali were dismissed. He won in every legal sense.

So before you make any kind of judgement about anyone and call him names, let alone try to demean his character, think first.

Otherwise someone may say about you, "That Pumpdog is a great poster, but he is much more stupid than the mentally disabled!"
 

NDokie13

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No man who steps into the ring with the likes of a Sonny Liston, George Foreman, or Earnie Shavers is a coward. I'd rather get hit with a baseball bat than take a straight shot to the jaw from any one of those guys.
 

IrishLax

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Okay, now I have some words.

Lax you know I love you like a brother; no disrespect for you or you Grandfather.

I knew a couple of investors from the original syndicate that put together the financing to bring Cassius from a skinny Golden Gloves Champion to an Olympic Champion and then the unanimous World Heavyweight Champion.

Ali was always a complex man. He was entirely shaped by a lifetime of being told what he couldn't do. Which, for a young black man in Louisville, KY, in the '40's and '50's was a whole lot. Regardless of any of his views, and whether you look at them in the context of their time, or with 20/20 hindsight, he was a thinking man, of character, who always went with his principles, and followed through with his commitments. I don't know if he ever gave less than his best. Which is reason for admiration alone.

To clarify, I wasn't trying to say that I -- personally -- think he is a coward. My first post was a little ambiguous. I was trying to say that I basically know nothing about the guy, and accordingly don't have an opinion one way or another. (If I had written "told" instead of "taught" that would probably have read more clearly)

And that, knowing nothing about the guy, it's always been very interesting to me to see how many people regard him as a literal hero, and then others like my grandfather view him as a villain. It's not something whimsical like "are you a Kobe fan?"... it's extremely strong opinions that are diametrically opposed, and both sides seem to be concretely based in certain actions or facts.

He's probably one of the most interesting sports figures of all time, I'm just sad he wasn't of my era and I know so little about either his career or actions outside the ring.
 

BGIF

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Ali was before my time, so I have no opinion on his an athlete. But growing up, I was taught by grandfather (who was a veteran) that Cassius Clay was a draft dodger and a coward.

Since then, always been interesting to see how many people have a completely opposite opinion of him.


Your post was crystal clear except to the few that just had to ... .


As was the following post by GoIrish41:
That was certainly the opinion of a lot of folks back then. Others saw him as a man of great principle. He was a very controversial figure. His path to beloved national icon was a bumpy one. It took some years out of the spotlight before many softened their stance on him. He was an amazing fighter though. Of that there is no doubt. And his interviews with Howard Cosell were extremely entertaining.

ACamp nailed it:
He obviously had a great impact on many... Rip
 

dwshade

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Former boxer Alfredo Evangelista, who lost to Ali in 1977, said it best.

"He had a heart as large as the vacuum he leaves behind. I would say he was an even better human being than a boxer."
 

vmgsf

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No man who steps into the ring with the likes of a Sonny Liston, George Foreman, or Earnie Shavers is a coward. I'd rather get hit with a baseball bat than take a straight shot to the jaw from any one of those guys.

Prior post. Reps. Ali was not a coward. Period. End of discussion unless you are brain dead.
 

ARALOU

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I can weigh in on this. I remember, vividly, the controversy surrounding his refusal to join. I even resented it until I heard family members arguing about it during the holidays (1969 or 70 I think). One was condemning Ali, another was saying he was behind him. The one on his side had just returned from Nam. Saw extensive combat. He said the war was against people that are fighting for their lives. He said he saw no leaders in the battlefield. He said someone out of harms way is profiting from this war at the expense of american lives. I thought it was strange that a person that volunteered to go had changed his mind. The other had registered for Selective Service but joined the reserves. Which at that time effectively kept him out of Viet Nam. Is there a difference? I wasn't old enough to have to go there. I would like to think that I would have but I surely didnt want to. I wasn't facing the danger others faced. I also recall that not everyone had to go. You were rated by certain conditions or social standing even. I can certainly understand WWII veterans opinion on it and have/had family members in that category. That war and draft conditions was totally a different story.

I think Ali was a great boxer. Probably the best I will ever see. I think he was a fine human being. I even think that later in life he probably regretted some of his decisions, I think I even heard that he said that. What decisions he regretted I do not know. Maybe the decision not to join, maybe not. One thing is for sure. He shared an opinion of the war with many others back then. Many did not join that war. They just didnt have the fame he had and were not in the news for moving to Canada. I did find it somewhat controversial that he incited an entire country to chant "Ali, kill him," during one of his epic fights, against his peaceful religious beliefs. That may have been just for show.

For the record, I have a son in the army. He is an infantry SSG. He is likely facing yet another deployment very soon. Likely Iraq. So I have a staunch support for military operations. I think in Ali's case I can give him a pass. Especially in hindsight. May he rest in peace.
 

Irish#1

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That's a sweet video, I've never seen Ali perform anything, this was about as much video as I've ever seen of him. So I'm intrigued by him as a 'performer' because of that shake at the end lol.

No man who steps into the ring with the likes of a Sonny Liston, George Foreman, or Earnie Shavers is a coward. I'd rather get hit with a baseball bat than take a straight shot to the jaw from any one of those guys.

When Ali was fighting, the heavyweight division was rocking. If you want to see some entertaining boxing, watch both of his fights with Smokin' Joe Frazier and his first with Ken Norton. While the Thrilla in Manila gets a lot of talk, his fights with Frazier are typically considered the biggest of his career. Thrilla was exceptional because many thought he was well past his prime, yet he had another one left in the tank.

I was 18 when Ali refused to serve. He took a lot of heat for changing his name and not serving, but in the end it may have had a bigger impact on our culture more than anything in the last 50 years.
 

IrishLion

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Fun Fact: Rope-A-Dope is kind of a myth. But the fact that it was perpetuated and encouraged by Ali and the world at large is a testament to Ali's persona outside of the ring... People just rolled with it because it was Ali.

A great fighter, and a man who stood up for what he believed in the face of the government itself.

It's one thing to dodge the draft and drop off the radar... you might call that cowardly.

It's another thing to refuse to serve based on your beliefs, to stand up and shout about it to the world, and to take all of the backlash, criticism, and punishment that comes with it. You CAN NOT call that cowardly. Any man who is willing to put himself through that, at that time, is the very opposite of a "coward."

I think the time that has passed, and how the world is today, help that conclusion become more clear. I can absolutely understand how people at the time would have viewed him as a coward for refusing to serve when called upon. But knowing what we know now, and being able to step back and look at the lessons of history and of individuals who have fought for what they believe, might change some things if people could/would reevaluate.

"I'm the greatest, I'm a bad man, and I'm pretty!"
 
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Bogtrotter07

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I can weigh in on this. I remember, vividly, the controversy surrounding his refusal to join. I even resented it until I heard family members arguing about it during the holidays (1969 or 70 I think). One was condemning Ali, another was saying he was behind him. The one on his side had just returned from Nam. Saw extensive combat. He said the war was against people that are fighting for their lives. He said he saw no leaders in the battlefield. He said someone out of harms way is profiting from this war at the expense of american lives. I thought it was strange that a person that volunteered to go had changed his mind. The other had registered for Selective Service but joined the reserves. Which at that time effectively kept him out of Viet Nam. Is there a difference? I wasn't old enough to have to go there. I would like to think that I would have but I surely didnt want to. I wasn't facing the danger others faced. I also recall that not everyone had to go. You were rated by certain conditions or social standing even. I can certainly understand WWII veterans opinion on it and have/had family members in that category. That war and draft conditions was totally a different story.

I think Ali was a great boxer. Probably the best I will ever see. I think he was a fine human being. I even think that later in life he probably regretted some of his decisions, I think I even heard that he said that. What decisions he regretted I do not know. Maybe the decision not to join, maybe not. One thing is for sure. He shared an opinion of the war with many others back then. Many did not join that war. They just didnt have the fame he had and were not in the news for moving to Canada. I did find it somewhat controversial that he incited an entire country to chant "Ali, kill him," during one of his epic fights, against his peaceful religious beliefs. That may have been just for show.

For the record, I have a son in the army. He is an infantry SSG. He is likely facing yet another deployment very soon. Likely Iraq. So I have a staunch support for military operations. I think in Ali's case I can give him a pass. Especially in hindsight. May he rest in peace.

Really outstanding post!

Thank your son for his service for me! Let me know if he deploys back. I would like to welcome him home!

Sounds like your whole family has served the country with distinction!

See. You hit closer to the bull's-eye than almost anyone. Some want to make it a racial, or socio-economic thing. It is much more nuanced than that.

After they decided (whomever they were) that they were going full potato on Viet Nam, and they realized a few thousand advisors would have to end up a half-a-million ground troops, it was decided that certain criterion for acceptance would have to change.

Since there were a high number of deferments for college (Clinton, oh and for not inhaling), and other medical reasons, (Limbaugh, boils on his ass, Cheney, unfit physically, after seven years of football, and the college deferments ran out), and (Bush, cocaine).

Clearly this happened on both sides of the aisle, but rarely among the poor.

So what did the nation's best and brightest decide to do? Increase the number of birthdays taken in the lottery, and risk an early public outcry? Hell, no! They decided to carve off a huge chunk of those candidates that were not deemed fit for duty, previously.

What group would this be? Those testing with IQ's two standard deviations below the average range. This group wasn't even classified 1-Y previously; which was those who would be taken in the event of a military emergency.

So, there were some from this group that worked out fine in the military. But this group provided more kia's and earlier than any other group. By nature, they were sitting ducks.

And the risk of these soldiers costing other lives was greater, too? Would you as an experienced veteran want to continue to go into combat when you knew the force was being dumbed down?

Anyone who really knows Ali's story knows how much he had to expose, and how it was that he was morally against this, what his reasons were. Thanks for your addition to the conversation!
 

Legacy

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Great boxer, coward of a man.

Great boxer. Better man.

From the SCOTUS blog.

Muhammad Ali, conscientious objection, and the Supreme Court’s struggle to understand “jihad” and “holy war”: The story of Cassius Clay v. United States

You’ve probably heard that in 1971 the Supreme Court reversed Muhammad Ali’s conviction for refusing to be inducted into the Selective Service. But why did it do so? What was the legal issue on which the case turned? And what, if anything, did the criminal case have to do with Ali losing his championship and being precluded from fighting for more than three years?

Here’s a brief summary of the legal machinations. I am deeply indebted to former Georgetown Law professor Tom Krattenmaker, one of Justice John Marshall Harlan’s clerks in the October Term 1970, from whom I learned some of the information below about the Court’s internal deliberations in the Clay case. The remainder of this post is derived from the public record and from the memos available in the Blackmun and Brennan papers.

An excerpt:
2. Ali’s conscientious objection claim: The twists and turns of the administrative process

In February 1966, the Selective Service informed Ali that he was, for the first time, eligible for military service. Ali then applied for a conscientious objector exemption, asserting that he was a pacifist who was religiously opposed to fighting in war. His local draft board rejected the claim, and he appealed to the Kentucky State Appeal Board.

The matter was then referred to the Department of Justice for an advisory recommendation, as the regulations of the time prescribed. The FBI interviewed dozens of persons, including members of Ali’s family and many of his friends, neighbors, and business and religious associates. DOJ then convened a hearing before a designated “hearing officer,” Lawrence Grauman, a well-respected former Kentucky state judge. Judge Grauman concluded that Ali had a sincere religious objection to war in any form, and he recommended that the service grant Ali status as a conscientious objector.

DOJ, however, did not forward Judge Grauman’s report to the appeal board, or even tell Ali what the judge had concluded. Instead, DOJ wrote its own letter to the appeal board, advising that it should reject Ali’s conscientious objector claim. (As Hampton Dellinger explains, DOJ and President Lyndon Johnson were under considerable public pressure to make certain that Ali either served in the military or went to prison.)

As noted below, DOJ suggested three distinct grounds for the board to rule against Ali – a fact that became the basis for the Court’s ultimate disposition. The appeal board promptly denied Ali’s claim, but it did not offer any reasons for its decision.

On April 28, 1967, Ali reported to the Selective Service induction center in Houston, where he was living at the time, but he refused to submit to induction. Ali’s refusal had two major consequences: loss of his boxing license and championship, and criminal prosecution.

3. Stripped of his livelihood . . . and his crown

Mere hours after Ali’s refusal, the chairman of the New York State Athletic Commission, Edwin Dooley, announced that the Commission had withdrawn Ali’s license to fight on the ground that licensing a man who refused induction was “detrimental to the best interests of boxing”; the commission also withdrew its recognition of Ali as world heavyweight champion. Within days, every important state boxing commission in the nation had followed suit, effectively preventing Ali from fighting in the United States.

Although it might seem very surprising now, much of the public at the time welcomed the commission’s decision. For instance, as Dellinger recounts, white sports writers almost universally condemned Ali (with the principal, noteworthy exceptions of Howard Cosell, Bob Lipsyte, and Larry Merchant). A bitter and dismissive editorial in Sports Illustrated in May 1967 was, unfortunately, representative of the way that many white Americans viewed Ali and the Nation of Islam:

Without his gloves on, Ali is just another demagogue and an apologist for his so-called religion, and his views on Vietnam don’t deserve rebuttal. . . . It is, of course, purposeless to dwell on the good Ali could have done for black and white alike if he hadn’t aligned himself with the Muslims. But if indeed he does go to jail, Ali can achieve the martyrdom he seeks only if it is shown that he is sacrificing himself for the sake of a principle worthy of the name.

4. Prosecution for draft-dodging

Meanwhile, a grand jury indicted Ali for draft evasion; and on June 20, 1967, a jury in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Texas found Ali guilty after deliberating for twenty-one minutes. Federal judge Joe Ingraham sentenced Ali to five years in prison and a $10,000 fine. The judge also required Ali to surrender his passport pending appeal . . . which meant that Ali could not fight overseas, either.

Ali appealed to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit, which affirmed his conviction. Ali then petitioned the Supreme Court for certiorari. The Justices reportedly voted to deny cert.; before the Court issued the decree, however, Solicitor General Erwin Griswold informed the Court that the defendants in a number of pending cases, including Ali’s, had been the subject of FBI wiretapping that might have been unconstitutional under the Court’s then-recent Fourth Amendment decisions. The Court remanded the cases back to the trial courts to decide whether the convictions were tainted by virtue of unlawful wiretaps. In Ali’s case, the district judge subsequently decided that the surveillance – Ali was overheard in taps of phones belonging to Elijah Muhammad and Martin Luther King, Jr. – had no bearing on Ali’s conviction. The court of appeals again affirmed, in the summer of 1970. Ali once more asked the Court to review his conviction.

Ali: "My principles are more important than the money or my title." and

"I didn't want to submit to the army and then, on the day of judgment, have God say to me, 'Why did you do that?' This life is a trial, and you realize that what you do is going to be written down for Judgment Day."

"Allah's the Arabic term for God. Stand up for God, fight for God, work for God and do the right thing, and go the right way, things will end up in your corner."
 
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