Qustion regarding our QB depth

[DCirishfan]

Please note that I like Tommy a bunch and am just posing a question. I am sure I will barbaqued per ususal but I feel the need to ask.

Is it not reasonable, at this point in BK's tenure, to expect to have a better qb OPTION than TR?

I fully understand all the circumstances regarding GK and EG but still find it slightly depressing that with years here TR is crowned starter being that he is what he is talent wise.

That is all

 

[WakeUpEchoes]

Respectfully, disagree. I think we are better off than 90% of other college football teams if they had the Golson circumstances. Our BACKUP QB went 12-4 his first two seasons. We know his limitations, but I can't think of any other team where if they lost their starting QB, they would still be a top 15 team (arguably top 10).

Tommy has been a godsend in disguise the past two seasons and I'm comfortable with our QB depth at this point given the circumstances.

 

[T Town Tommy]

There are a lot of teams that would take Rees in a minute. The coaches know what he can and cannot do at this point. Put him in the best position to be successful and let him play. As far as depth, it obviously took the big hit with EG and GK but it is what it is. Gotta dance with the one you brung... and for now that is TR. He will be fine. Just hold your breathe when he throws the 20 yard out.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Is it not reasonable, at this point in BK's tenure, to expect to have a better qb OPTION than TR?

No. When BK arrived in 2010, this is what he inherited:

SR ---
JR Crist
SO ---
FR Hendrix, Rees, Massa

Thus, if Crist didn't pan out, he was screwed. Crist was a bust, which resulted in our underachieving offense over the past three years. If it weren't for Tommy's remarkably precocious freshman and sophomore campaigns, Kelly might not even be our coach right now. See this article on Tommy's performance for more. Even very good QBs usually suck as underclassmen; we were very lucky with Tommy.

I fully understand all the circumstances regarding GK and EG but still find it slightly depressing that with years here TR is crowned starter being that he is what he is talent wise.

How can you be fully aware of the circumstances and still blame BK? He stole Golson from UNC for the 2011 class, and had him on track to be one of the most dangerous QBs in the nation. Then the kid got caught cheating multiple times, and is now suspended. BK also stole Kiel-- the #1 QB in the nation-- from LSU at the last minute, and then Kiel transferred because he was afraid to compete against all the badass QBs Kelly had in development. Where did Kelly go wrong in there?

Erm, I'm probably doing this wrong. FIRE KELLY! HARRUMPH FULLBACKS!

 

[DCirishfan]

Fair points, makes me feel somewhat better.

 

[DCirishfan]

No. When BK arrived in 2010, this is what he inherited:



Thus, if Crist didn't pan out, he was screwed. Crist was a bust, which resulted in our underachieving offense over the past three years. If it weren't for Tommy's remarkably precocious freshman and sophomore campaigns, Kelly might not even be our coach right now. See this article on Tommy's performance for more. Even very good QBs usually suck as underclassmen; we were very lucky with Tommy.



How can you be fully aware of the circumstances and still blame BK? He stole Golson from UNC for the 2011 class, and had him on track to be one of the most dangerous QBs in the nation. Then the kid got caught cheating multiple times, and is now suspended. BK also stole Kiel-- the #1 QB in the nation-- from LSU at the last minute, and then Kiel transferred because he was afraid to compete against all the badass QBs Kelly had in development. Where did Kelly go wrong in there?

Erm, I'm probably doing this wrong. FIRE KELLY! HARRUMPH FULLBACKS!

Good points but did Gunner transfer knowing that EG was gone? If not I don't agree with the badass recruit angle, he clearly would have a leg up hypothetically given his age and pedegree I would think.

 

[Meacon Irish]

Gunner transferred at the beginning of spring practice. The Golson thing didn't go down until the end of the semester.

 

[WestCoast]

Erm, I'm probably doing this wrong. FIRE KELLY! HARRUMPH FULLBACKS!

I don't think this is fair. There is nothing in the original posters question that implies this is where he was going. I think his question is fair, and your factual points are appropriate except for the condescending attitude. The idea of a discussion board is to discuss points/thoughts/issues, even if the point/thought/issue is easily answered.

The original question is fair. And the answer to the question is general sense is actually "yes", a coach in his 4th year should have solid to excellent options at every position including QB... on paper. But as was pointed out, sometimes life happens and sometimes those things are beyond your control.

One the one hand, the negative aspect of where NDFB is right now (without last years' starting QB and the #1 So. signee gone) with the QB situation is not Kelly's fault, but that fact he has been developing the back-up(s) is a positive in his column. I don't think the prior staff placed as much emphasis on developing the 2s and 3s.

As an aside, sometimes coaches/CEO/directors/leaders do get fired for failing to produce results even though that failure was largely due to circumstances beyond their control. It is their job to right the ship. Sometimes the powers that be don't give them enough time or don't believe in their system. That's life too.

 

[PANDFAN]

No. When BK arrived in 2010, this is what he inherited:



Thus, if Crist didn't pan out, he was screwed. Crist was a bust, which resulted in our underachieving offense over the past three years. If it weren't for Tommy's remarkably precocious freshman and sophomore campaigns, Kelly might not even be our coach right now. See this article on Tommy's performance for more. Even very good QBs usually suck as underclassmen; we were very lucky with Tommy.



How can you be fully aware of the circumstances and still blame BK? He stole Golson from UNC for the 2011 class, and had him on track to be one of the most dangerous QBs in the nation. Then the kid got caught cheating multiple times, and is now suspended. BK also stole Kiel-- the #1 QB in the nation-- from LSU at the last minute, and then Kiel transferred because he was afraid to compete against all the badass QBs Kelly had in development. Where did Kelly go wrong in there?

Erm, I'm probably doing this wrong. FIRE KELLY! HARRUMPH FULLBACKS!

as usual, whiskey bringing the facts

 

[stlnd01]

Kelly has recruited a top-tier QB for every class he's had full opportunity to work on. It is unfortunate that the first one screwed up and the next wimped out, leaving us with the current situation. But it's hardly Kelly's fault.

And - as others have pointed out - few programs have the luxury of a backup QB with 14 (or whatever it is) wins under his belt and the kind of big-game experience Rees has accumulated.

It'll be OK.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I don't think this is fair. There is nothing in the original posters question that implies this is where he was going. I think his question is fair, and your factual points are appropriate except for the condescending attitude.

It was a fair question, and I didn't mean to come off as condescending (though in retrospect, I can see how my response could be interpreted that way.)

There's an inside joke over at onefootdown about blaming Kelly for everything. So whenever a poster defends him, someone invariably responds (in OFD's designated sarcasm font) "FIRE KILL! HARRUMPH FULLBACKS!"

That's what I was shooting for. Didn't mean to imply that OP is a member of the ND Taliban. Now that Domer4Ever guy? Totally NDNation.

 

[Emcee77]

Is it not reasonable, at this point in BK's tenure, to expect to have a better qb OPTION than TR?

It's definitely reasonable. A lot of stuff had to happen for Rees to be our starter this year.
In addition to all the stuff that's already been mentioned re: Kiel and Golson, Rees had to beat out Hendrix in order to be the starter. Hendrix is a great athlete, he was the highest rated QB in his class (not that that's saying much ... I mean he was the only one who was nationally rated, basically) and, if you'd asked anyone in January 2010 who among the three QBs in that class would be the starter in Fall 2013, anyone would have said Hendrix. So I can see why you might be depressed ... Rees is our starter because one guy didn't live up to expectations, one guy is suspended and one guy didn't have the chest. That's quite a bit of misfortune. But none of it is BK's fault, and give Rees credit for making the most of his talent. I'm sure he'll show us this year why he's been able to stay ahead of Hendrix.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

No. When BK arrived in 2010, this is what he inherited:



Thus, if Crist didn't pan out, he was screwed. Crist was a bust, which resulted in our underachieving offense over the past three years. If it weren't for Tommy's remarkably precocious freshman and sophomore campaigns, Kelly might not even be our coach right now. See this article on Tommy's performance for more. Even very good QBs usually suck as underclassmen; we were very lucky with Tommy.



How can you be fully aware of the circumstances and still blame BK? He stole Golson from UNC for the 2011 class, and had him on track to be one of the most dangerous QBs in the nation. Then the kid got caught cheating multiple times, and is now suspended. BK also stole Kiel-- the #1 QB in the nation-- from LSU at the last minute, and then Kiel transferred because he was afraid to compete against all the badass QBs Kelly had in development. Where did Kelly go wrong in there?

Erm, I'm probably doing this wrong. FIRE KELLY! HARRUMPH FULLBACKS!

^This. All of it.

Weis did a great job recruiting QBs for two years in a row (Clausen, Crist). After that...

Had Crist panned out, this would be a totally different situation. But, as I saw as an Irish and Kansas fan, Dayne is not a good D1 quarterback. Weird, but that's what happened.

 

[Onemanwolfpack]

Please note that I like DCIrishfan a bunch and am just posing a question. I am sure I will barbaqued per ususal but I feel the need to ask.

Is it not reasonable, at this point in BK's tenure, to expect to have a better fan OPTION than DCIrishfan?

I fully understand all the circumstances regarding DCIrishfan and WestCoast's support of him but still find it slightly depressing that with years here the fans being pissy about the performance of Brian Kelly.

That is all

 

[WestCoast]

It was a fair question, and I didn't mean to come off as condescending (though in retrospect, I can see how my response could be interpreted that way.)

There's an inside joke over at onefootdown about blaming Kelly for everything. So whenever a poster defends him, someone invariably responds (in OFD's designated sarcasm font) "FIRE KILL! HARRUMPH FULLBACKS!"

That's what I was shooting for. Didn't mean to imply that OP is a member of the ND Taliban. Now that Domer4Ever guy? Totally NDNation.

Sorry, I didn't get the inside joke. I missed the fullbacks part, probably should have clued me in.

 

[Kak7304]

Sorry, I didn't get the inside joke. I missed the fullbacks part, probably should have clued me in.

The Unofficial OFD Lexicon - One Foot Down

"Fire Kelly"

See: Harumph! Fullbacks!


"Harumph! Fullbacks!"

This OFD battle cry has been used for some time and is generally in reference to a certain splinter-cell of the fan base whose mother ship may or may not reside somewhere on the interwebs. This curmudgeonly, lunatic fringe portion of fans are generally more concerned with things like "tradition" than the actual on-field product.

For the sake of brevity, this term can be shortened to either base word.

Acceptable alternate spelling: Harrumph! Fullbacks!

One foot down also has a column "Five wide fullbacks." They enjoy poking fun at the more batsh*t crazy sect of our fanbase.

 

[CHIDomer9]

The QB depth, or lack of it, is a result of Gunner Kiel. No one was upset when Kelly got the #1 QB in 2012 class to come to Notre Dame. But when you swing for the fences like that, there are risks. Had Kiel been the #30 QB in his class, maybe things would be different. A 5* recruit expects to play, is sold on being the man and will generally have his pick of other programs if he decides to transfer. I think that was always the risk with Kiel -- a risk worth taking.

Maybe if ND had taken the #30 QB in that class he would still be here and our perceived depth would be better, but that player's upside would pale in comparison to Kiel's.

 

[kmoose]

Please note that I like Tommy a bunch and am just posing a question. I am sure I will barbaqued per ususal but I feel the need to ask.

Is it not reasonable, at this point in BK's tenure, to expect to have a better qb OPTION than TR?

I fully understand all the circumstances regarding GK and EG but still find it slightly depressing that with years here TR is crowned starter being that he is what he is talent wise.

That is all

And what is he, talent-wise?

 

[Emcee77]

And what is he, talent-wise?

Ha, great question. For all we know, Rees could come out this year and show us Chris Leak or Graham Harrell or any of a number of QBs who were knocked for lacking arm strength but got results on the field. We always assumed that Rees, a coach's son who threw it around a lot in high school, was the guy who came in closer to his ceiling, and Hendrix was the raw project. Well, Hendrix's rawness notwithstanding, maybe we didn't really know how high Rees's ceiling is. I think he will surprise some people.

 

[ulukinatme]

Please note that I like Tommy a bunch and am just posing a question. I am sure I will barbaqued per ususal but I feel the need to ask.

Is it not reasonable, at this point in BK's tenure, to expect to have a better qb OPTION than TR?

I fully understand all the circumstances regarding GK and EG but still find it slightly depressing that with years here TR is crowned starter being that he is what he is talent wise.

That is all

First, check out some of the early posts I found during Tommy's recruitment. Lot of prophetic stuff in there and some interesting things considering the careers of Tommy's predecessor's and his projected playing ability: http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/201...my-rees-notre-dame-signee-22.html#post1093548

Anyway, to answer your question, I think Tommy is a fine QB in his own right. He's certainly not the dual threat that Everett was, but he's a better QB than he gets credit for. People have a hard time shaking the images of his Sophomore campaign out of their head, despite the fact he played very well as an underclassman and he was not named the starter for the season. He also played with an offensive line that was still a work in progress. Tommy was on par or better than many of our QBs that played as Sophomores and were more highly regarded or recruited.

We probably would have better options if Gunner Kiel stuck around, or if Hendrix would have come on earlier (Signs show improvement for this year and he'll most likely have to go in for Tommy a bit at least). Then of course theres the Golson fiasco. Tommy really has been a blessing in disguise. Had Crist not gotten injured or performed as expected, either Tommy or Andrew would be getting their first starts possibly this season with Golson out. That would be scary. Instead Tommy comes in with a season and a half of full games under his belt, and 3 full years in Kelly's system.

Can you imagine if he didn't early enroll? That set quite a chain of events into motion. Early enrolling helped lead him to the backup spot his freshman year. He takes over when Crist goes down, finishes the year 4-0 and then a bowl win over Miami, breaking the losing streak to USC. He struggles in a couple games his Sophomore season, but otherwise performs fairly well as a 2nd year player after taking over as starter once Crist gets benched. He spells Golson as needed last season, performing well when coming off the bench again. He's now coming into his Senior year where he's named the starter for the first time from the beginning, full confidence from his team and coaching staff. I think we'll do well this year, I believe in Reesus.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Good points but did Gunner transfer knowing that EG was gone? If not I don't agree with the badass recruit angle, he clearly would have a leg up hypothetically given his age and pedegree I would think.

I suspect that Kiel's transfer was due primarily to an inability to pass Rees, not Golson. Had he been the #2, Kiel would have been one injury (or suspension) away from starting; I think he would have stayed under those circumstances. But he couldn't pass Rees on the depth chart, and few blue-chip QBs are content to sit at #3 on anyone's depth chart.

 

[IrishLax]

First, check out some of the early posts I found during Tommy's recruitment. Lot of prophetic stuff in there and some interesting things considering the careers of Tommy's predecessor's and his projected playing ability: http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/201...my-rees-notre-dame-signee-22.html#post1093548

Anyway, to answer your question, I think Tommy is a fine QB in his own right. He's certainly not the dual threat that Everett was, but he's a better QB than he gets credit for. People have a hard time shaking the images of his Sophomore campaign out of their head, despite the fact he played very well as an underclassman and he was not named the starter for the season. He also played with an offensive line that was still a work in progress. Tommy was on par or better than many of our QBs that played as Sophomores and were more highly regarded or recruited.

We probably would have better options if Gunner Kiel stuck around, or if Hendrix would have come on earlier (Signs show improvement for this year and he'll most likely have to go in for Tommy a bit at least). Then of course theres the Golson fiasco. Tommy really has been a blessing in disguise. Had Crist not gotten injured or performed as expected, either Tommy or Andrew would be getting their first starts possibly this season with Golson out. That would be scary. Instead Tommy comes in with a season and a half of full games under his belt, and 3 full years in Kelly's system.

Can you imagine if he didn't early enroll? That set quite a chain of events into motion. Early enrolling helped lead him to the backup spot his freshman year. He takes over when Crist goes down, finishes the year 4-0 and then a bowl win over Miami, breaking the losing streak to USC. He struggles in a couple games his Sophomore season, but otherwise performs fairly well as a 2nd year player after taking over as starter once Crist gets benched. He spells Golson as needed last season, performing well when coming off the bench again. He's now coming into his Senior year where he's named the starter for the first time from the beginning, full confidence from his team and coaching staff. I think we'll do well this year, I believe in Reesus.

I always circle back to this. What if Hendrix enrolled early but not Rees? I don't know if Tommy ever takes a snap. Tommy got thrust into the starting role because because the only other options were a QB in Hendrix who had taken few reps in either high school or practice... and 2 Luke Massa.

What if Crist doesn't get hurt? I also don't know if he ever takes a snap. Crist likely would've been a 3-year starter with moderate-to-minimal success... he wouldn't have left early, because he wasn't good enough to be a pro. Last year would've been the last year of Crist as a 5th year senior. Coming into this season you would potentially have had Golson, Hendrix, Rees, Kiel(?), Zaire(?) fighting for that starting gig. I'm not sure if either Kiel or Zaire would've been recruited... but probably Kiel. How would Rees possibly beat out any of those guys if he didn't have a HUGE leg up in reps, game experience, and command of the offense?

It's just weird to think about. Rees is the least physically gifted of any of the guys we've recruited and that's why he needed a break to have a chance. Not that different than 6th round pick Tom Brady if you really think about it. If Bledsoe doesn't get hurt, does Brady ever start an NFL game? Seriously... Bledsoe is one of the top 15 or so greatest QBs of all time... he was the franchise QB of the Patriots, had won a super bowl, made a bunch of pro bowls... and were it not for getting knocked out with internal bleeding in Week 2 of the 2001 season there is no chance Brady sees the field. Bledsoe went on to play 5 more years with 4 of them being at a high level. What are the chances Tom Brady would've hung around in the league as an unheralded 6th round pick for 6 years+ without the break that got him on the field in the 2001 season?

Football is a strange game.

 

[NDWorld247]

I suspect that Kiel's transfer was due primarily to an inability to pass Rees, not Golson. Had he been the #2, Kiel would have been one injury (or suspension) away from starting; I think he would have stayed under those circumstances. But he couldn't pass Rees on the depth chart, and few blue-chip QBs are content to sit at #3 on anyone's depth chart.

Did he even try though? He couldn't have realistically thought the coaches would move him to #2 after a year running the scout team and all three QBs ahead of him returning. What bothered me about Kiel's transfer is he did it before Spring practice even started. If his decision was truly depth chart driven, he would have given it a go in the spring, saw where he ended up on the depth chart, and then made a decision.

I think his transfer had a lot more to do with his relationship with Martin than his position on the depth chart.

Edit: And I don't mean to completely dismiss depth chart being the issue. Seeing the returning starter with 3 more years of eligibility likely played a big factor. I'm more inclined to believe his gripe with the depth chart is the path to #1 rather than the path to #2. No 5-star in the country would be happy with sitting for 4 years. Les Miles was right. He didn't have the chest.

 

[Irish YJ]

In general:
We were a product of a perfect crap storm the past 4-5 years. One blue chip bust (DC), one blue chip transfer (GK), and a semi blue chip suspension (EG). That's a lot to go through for one team.

Rees: We are lucky
I can't say that I'm a huge fan of TR from a skill perspective, but I am a huge fan of his heart, his determination,and his loyalty. After GKs signing, and EGs performance, or his arrest..... he could have easily transferred to a MAC team, and had instant success. Not to mention would be the big man on campus... instead he hung in there, helped the team in any way he could, and now is stepping up to lead our team after all the above..... He's an ND man in my opinion. This is coming from the same guy who used to beg for EG and GK.....

QB recruiting in general:
Honestly I haven't been a huge fan of our QB recruiting in general, but I'm not overly concerned either. BK landed and lost EG and GK, landed MZ (perhaps a better EG, 4th rated dual threat), and has a verbal from a mid level (12th rated) pro style in 2014. So long as 2015 is a good year in this space, I think we will be fine. I do think BK needs to land "the guy" in 2015.

GK:
Depth or relationships or happiness or lack of chest or ........ Doesn't matter. We took a risk on a guy that de-committed multiple times. If this was a shock to any of us....... To bad he didn't wait around though. Good chance he'd be starting instead of sitting. Anyway, he gone. IMO, the next Jeff George.

 

[Patulski]

Ha, great question. For all we know, Rees could come out this year and show us Chris Leak or Graham Harrell or any of a number of QBs who were knocked for lacking arm strength but got results on the field. We always assumed that Rees, a coach's son who threw it around a lot in high school, was the guy who came in closer to his ceiling, and Hendrix was the raw project. Well, Hendrix's rawness notwithstanding, maybe we didn't really know how high Rees's ceiling is. I think he will surprise some people.

It is interesting that in this fall camp both Hendrix and Kelly talked about how far Hendrix has come in terms of understanding the game, but Hendrix still has been unable to beat out Rees.

 

[T Town Tommy]

I know the Big East isn't the greatest conference in CFB, but Kelly did win the conference title one year using four different QBs. He somehow finds a way to get what he can out of his QBs. The Irish will be fine this season.

 

[Patulski]

Bledsoe is one of the top 15 or so greatest QBs of all time... he was the franchise QB of the Patriots, had won a super bowl, made a bunch of pro bowls...

Here's an interesting article about Bledsoe and being replaced as a starter on a team that goes to a Super Bowl.

 

[Rudy89]

I love tommy but I'm concerned how he will do without targets like Floyd and Eifert this year. I know there was more than jus those two guys but they are big targets and they helped make up for some of Tommy's shortcomings.

 

[Meacon Irish]

I love tommy but I'm concerned how he will do without targets like Floyd and Eifert this year. I know there was more than jus those two guys but they are big targets and they helped make up for some of Tommy's shortcomings.

On the contrary, I think he'll do even better without a Floyd or Eifert. When he had Michael and Tyler, he would just stare them down until throwing the ball. He wouldn't even look at his second or third options. Without a 100% #1, go-to-guy, I feel like he's much more likely to check through his progressions and find the open man.