Post Game Thoughts - Michigan State

IrishLax

Something Witty
Staff member
Messages
37,545
Reaction score
28,995
Older thread but couple things

1) Our WRs = clueless. Those screen passes they couldnt have ran worse after receiving the ball. Looks like they didnt even try to use the blocker as a shield or run off the blockers hip. Whoever is coaching the WRs really needs to be evaluated

2) Defense Im really wondering is more lucky than good. MSU really wasnt a very good executing team. That QB missed a LOT of throws and run defense wise, didnt look like ND defended the off tackle runs well at all. Didnt see a lot of good execution at all. Defense needs a lot of help to really be considered a good defense. Possible? Maybe. But definitely not right now. Dline no one is standing out or even up at that.

3) Hainsey @ RT really needs help at pass protection. A good pass rushing DE is going to eat his lunch all night if he doesnt get a lot better or a lot of help with another player chipping in on blocking

4) MSU is a really dirty team. That safety #23 was thug-a-liscious all game. Cant expect much from Michigan residents I guess.

5) Talent and physical wise, no comparison. Significant size difference on both sides of the ball Line wise in NDs favor. Looked kinda like ND vs Navy.

6) Wimbush telegraphs the heck out of his target. Crystal ball predicts a lot of picks in his future if he doesnt change his evil ways.

7) Those are some weak duck kickoffs. Isnt there a walk on somewhere that can kick better than that?

8) Run-The-Ball-Left-Side-Every-Play. Repeat after me...there is no right side. There is no right side...

9) Good news three weeks off to practice vs USC.

10) NDs cheerleaders couldnt be any less attractive. Im hoping for the fellas sake that St Mary's has some hotties cos these ND girls look like the back of your balls

I came into the game thinking that but frankly I thought they executed about as well as they could AND got some calls to go their way and they still only had 2 scoring drives (one of which was a freak big play). They had 200+ of their yards after we went prevent. The LBs didn't play well and it didn't really matter because our DBs were excellent all game. DL was fine.

I thought the defense looked really fraudulent through the first three games and I'm now convinced that while they're going to give up lots of yards most teams are going to struggle to put up more than 21 on ND AND they're going to create a lot of impact plays like we haven't seen since... '02?
 

jspags10pg

Active member
Messages
937
Reaction score
199
Older thread but couple things

1) Our WRs = clueless. Those screen passes they couldnt have ran worse after receiving the ball. Looks like they didnt even try to use the blocker as a shield or run off the blockers hip. Whoever is coaching the WRs really needs to be evaluated

2) Defense Im really wondering is more lucky than good. MSU really wasnt a very good executing team. That QB missed a LOT of throws and run defense wise, didnt look like ND defended the off tackle runs well at all. Didnt see a lot of good execution at all. Defense needs a lot of help to really be considered a good defense. Possible? Maybe. But definitely not right now. Dline no one is standing out or even up at that.

3) Hainsey @ RT really needs help at pass protection. A good pass rushing DE is going to eat his lunch all night if he doesnt get a lot better or a lot of help with another player chipping in on blocking

4) MSU is a really dirty team. That safety #23 was thug-a-liscious all game. Cant expect much from Michigan residents I guess.

5) Talent and physical wise, no comparison. Significant size difference on both sides of the ball Line wise in NDs favor. Looked kinda like ND vs Navy.

6) Wimbush telegraphs the heck out of his target. Crystal ball predicts a lot of picks in his future if he doesnt change his evil ways.

7) Those are some weak duck kickoffs. Isnt there a walk on somewhere that can kick better than that?

8) Run-The-Ball-Left-Side-Every-Play. Repeat after me...there is no right side. There is no right side...

9) Good news three weeks off to practice vs USC.

10) NDs cheerleaders couldnt be any less attractive. Im hoping for the fellas sake that St Mary's has some hotties cos these ND girls look like the back of your balls

Except when Deon runs it into the endzone, untouched, from 9 yards out, right? F that noise.
 

Henges24

BUCKETHEAD
Messages
4,805
Reaction score
1,581
Older thread but couple things
4) MSU is a really dirty team. That safety #23 was thug-a-liscious all game. Cant expect much from Michigan residents I guess.

Youch man. Btw, "#23" isn't from Michigan but nice cheap shot anyways.

As for the rest of your post....

<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/HX7pvh1mIqImc" width="380" height="260" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/HX7pvh1mIqImc"></a></p>
 

dwshade

Banned
Messages
3,338
Reaction score
123
Youch man. Btw, "#23" isn't from Michigan but nice cheap shot anyways.

As for the rest of your post....

<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/HX7pvh1mIqImc" width="380" height="260" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/HX7pvh1mIqImc"></a></p>

Same here.
 

IrishLion

I am Beyonce, always.
Staff member
Messages
19,128
Reaction score
11,077
1) Our WRs = clueless. Those screen passes they couldnt have ran worse after receiving the ball. Looks like they didnt even try to use the blocker as a shield or run off the blockers hip. Whoever is coaching the WRs really needs to be evaluated

The screen game was trash the first three weeks. If you want to make the smoke and bubble screens work, you have to set them up with other playcalls beforehand... ND didn't set them up in the first three weeks, and so they generally took too long to develop and allowed the defense to blow them up.

I thought they were much better against MSU. They called them with better timing, and Claypool had one really good one.

The bolded is funny because there was another Claypool screen where he would have had 10+ and a first down if he cut inside, but he stayed TOO faithful to his blocker's hip, and got strung out and tackled.

I'm encourage by what appears to be development from Chip Long. Timing of plays and feel for the game seemed better against Sparty than it had the first three games.

2) Defense Im really wondering is more lucky than good.

They've been the beneficiaries of lucky bounces... but doesn't it say something about the defense improving and being a "good defense" that they take advantage of those lucky bounces?

Also, you can't attribute Crawford's strip/recovery at the goalline, nor Love's pick-6, to luck. That was GOOD, well-prepared, opportunistic defense. Love knew to jump the route based on game prep, and Crawford raked the ball from behind and then hustled for the recovery, just like they teach you when you practice creating turnovers during the week.

10) NDs cheerleaders couldnt be any less attractive. Im hoping for the fellas sake that St Mary's has some hotties cos these ND girls look like the back of your balls

Now you're just being picky.
 

BobbyMac

Staff & Stuff
Staff member
Messages
33,950
Reaction score
9,294

I wonder if they also turned in the play on Smythe's diving catch? David Dowell left his feet, launched at Durham's head and may have made helmet to helmet contact while Smythe was obviously defenseless. Regardless if he made contact or not, plays like this and Chris Frey's intentional spear should be dealt with after the game if the crew doesn't see catch it live... even if in Dowell's case, you didn't make contact because you fortunately missed.

See it here:

https://youtu.be/t31TDps9RZU?t=4527

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NotreDame?src=hash">#NotreDame</a> HC Brian Kelly discussed targeting, Jordan Genmark Heath, the trenches and much more. (Free) <a href="https://t.co/gPHJGBptci">https://t.co/gPHJGBptci</a></p>— Irish Sports Daily (@ISDUpdate) <a href="https://twitter.com/ISDUpdate/status/912737079796355073">September 26, 2017</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
Last edited:

IrishLion

I am Beyonce, always.
Staff member
Messages
19,128
Reaction score
11,077
^I was yelling to my friend about that play during a wedding reception while we watched on a cell phone.

Smythe not only made an amazing catch, but he also showed an amazing instinct for self preservation with the way he tucked himself in immediately as he fell.
 

ozzman

Well-known member
Messages
1,536
Reaction score
1,602
I wonder if they also turned in the play on Smythe's diving catch? David Dowell left his feet, launched at Durham's head and may have made helmet to helmet contact while Smythe was obviously defenseless. Regardless if he made contact or not, plays like this and Chris Frey's intentional spear should be dealt with after the game if the crew doesn't see catch it live... even if in Dowell's case, you didn't make contact because you fortunately missed.

See it here:

https://youtu.be/t31TDps9RZU?t=4527

As that play was happening, when Smythe went up, I thought he was going to be murdered. It looked like it was inevitable. How was he able to make the ground and get down was amazing.
 

snoopdog

New member
Messages
1,346
Reaction score
55
It will be interesting to see how State does against a decent Iowa team this weekend.

Actually I hope state fires on all cylinders and crushes the hawkeyes
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
Brian Fremeau's week 4 article at Football Outsiders focuses on ND:

Like most that work with football analytics, my first interest in diving into numbers was to uncover information that the standard box score wasn't able to provide. I've discussed the origin story of the FEI ratings on several occasions, including as a podcast guest last week with Ed Feng's Football Analytics Show, and how the value of turnovers in particular drove me to collect data to better evaluate the results of a given game. A fumble or interception can be costly for an offense, but the variable costs of those turnovers can have a wildly variable impact on the results of a game.

Notre Dame defeated Michigan State on Saturday night by a final score of 38-18, a game in which the Irish jumped out to a 14-0 lead early on and were comfortably ahead for most of the remainder of the contest. That's one way to describe a 20-point victory. Another way is a glance at the team stats in the game. Michigan State outgained Notre Dame by 141 total yards (496 to 355) and earned five more first downs (26 to 21), but lost the turnover battle by three (two fumbles and an interception thrown by the Spartans, no turnovers by the Irish). Those numbers suggest that perhaps Michigan State would have won if not for the turnovers, a very different narrative altogether. Is the truth somewhere in between?

This game was a great example of several of the steps I take when breaking down possession data. My first step is to discard garbage time data altogether, and in this instance, my numbers don't count any of the drives recorded after 6:28 left in the third quarter. At that point in the game, Notre Dame held a 35-10 lead and had just forced a Michigan State punt.

By eliminating from consideration every drive after that point, I'm eliminating some of Michigan State's most "effective" drives in terms of yards accumulated -- 19 plays, 81 yards, and a turnover on downs; seven plays, 71 yards, and touchdown with around three minutes left in the game; nine plays, 82 yards as time expired. Over the whole game, the Spartans' offensive drives traversed nearly 500 yards, but nearly half of that came in garbage time. Notre Dame accumulated 73 percent of its yardage prior to garbage time. Even before we consider the impact of turnovers, the shift in perspective on the success each team had moving the ball in non-garbage time is significant, and highlights how misleading overall yardage and first down totals can be.

That said, the Irish were the beneficiary of three turnovers in their favor, and the value of two of them in particular was significant. I calculate the value of each turnover based on field position value, a combination of the value forfeited by the team with the ball and the value generated on the resulting field position of the team that took the ball away. On average across college football, each turnover is worth around four points in the exchange -- the offense coughs up half of that value in their lost scoring opportunity, and the resulting field position (often favorable, but not always) for the opponent accounts for the rest.

Against Michigan State, however, Notre Dame generated a total of 18.2 points in field position and scoring value on three turnovers, a 50 percent increase in value over what was expected. That's because two of the turnovers were exceptionally noteworthy in value lost and generated. The first was a pick-six on Michigan State's first offensive possession of the game. The Spartans were across midfield and faced a third-and-6 at the Irish 45-yard line. An incomplete pass would not have given Michigan State a scoring opportunity, but they still could have pinned Notre Dame deep with a punt, generating some potential value for Michigan State in the field position exchange. Instead, Irish cornerback Julian Love jumped the route and returned the ball for a touchdown, crediting the turnover with both the value of the score itself and eliminating the field position exchange value. In total, that turnover generated 7.8 points in scoring opportunity value by my game splits calculations.

The second turnover by Michigan State was more typical in terms of value generated. The Irish forced a fumble on another third-and-6 for Michigan State, this time in Michigan State territory. The offensive value lost by Michigan State on the drive-killing event was minimal, but the field position exchange setting up the Irish at the Spartans' 24-yard line was worth 3.9 points of scoring opportunity value.

The third turnover was another killer for Sparty. After Notre Dame capitalized to take a 21-7 lead, Michigan State marched downfield with a 74-yard drive, but the Irish forced a fumble at the goal line and jumped on the ball in the end zone for a touchback. In this case, the resulting field position exchange wasn't particularly beneficial, but the value of the turnover itself in terms of Michigan State's offensive value lost was huge. That play was worth 6.5 points in scoring opportunity value, and the Irish capitalized on it by driving the length of the field on the ensuing possession to extend the lead to 28-7 before the half.

The Irish had never previously capitalized on a turnover advantage in the Brian Kelly era (2010 to present) anywhere near as large as the one they had on Saturday night. That kind of turnover value success isn't likely to repeat itself often, of course, but defenses that generate some kind of net scoring value each game will find great success in the win column. Notre Dame is on a short list of teams that have generated net scoring value on defense in each of four games against FBS competition to date.

Notable FEI rankings: Georgia at 2, USC at 7, ND at 11, Stanford at 12, and Miami at 18.
 

Dizzyphil

Well-known member
Messages
4,094
Reaction score
1,541
I wonder if they also turned in the play on Smythe's diving catch? David Dowell left his feet, launched at Durham's head and may have made helmet to helmet contact while Smythe was obviously defenseless. Regardless if he made contact or not, plays like this and Chris Frey's intentional spear should be dealt with after the game if the crew doesn't see catch it live... even if in Dowell's case, you didn't make contact because you fortunately missed.

I thought so as well. I had to find this to see if it could be enforced as a penalty. It reads - to me at least - that in the NCAA, you have to hit someone before it is ruled.

What do you think after reading this?

https://www.sbnation.com/college-fo...ulebook-helmet-crown-head-to-head-defenseless


<iframe id="rufous-sandbox" scrolling="no" allowtransparency="true" allowfullscreen="true" style="position: absolute; visibility: hidden; display: none; width: 0px; height: 0px; padding: 0px; border: medium none;" title="Twitter analytics iframe" frameborder="0"></iframe>
 

Legacy

New member
Messages
7,871
Reaction score
321
Brian Fremeau's week 4 article at Football Outsiders focuses on ND:



Notable FEI rankings: Georgia at 2, USC at 7, ND at 11, Stanford at 12, and Miami at 18.

From LinkedIn:
Brian Fremeau
Director of Facilities, Campus Crossroads Complex at University of Notre Dame
South Bend, Indiana AreaHigher Education

Current
University of Notre Dame, Football Outsiders, ESPN Insider, and Blue & Gold Illustrated

Previous
University of Notre Dame, Bethel College
Education
School of the Art Institute of Chicago
Websites
Professional Summary

From BCF Toys:
The Fremeau Efficiency Index (FEI) is a college football rating system based on opponent-adjusted drive efficiency. Preseason projected ratings are a function of five-year program ratings, recent recruiting success, and returning offensive and defensive experience. Win likelihoods for every regular season FBS game based on team ratings are used to produce the projected distribution of season-long results for each team. The remaining columns represent the percent likelihood each team will go undefeated (0L), lose once (1L), lose twice (2L), and so forth against its regular season schedule.
 

NDTH91

Well-known member
Messages
1,092
Reaction score
204
Fun fact: Brian Fremeau was my boss when I was a student working in LaFortune. Very nice guy.
 

calvegas04

Well-known member
Messages
11,881
Reaction score
8,465
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FVpX9wmaWxE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

philipm31

Well-known member
Messages
1,863
Reaction score
84
So the requirement of being legit is beating Alabama? So there are potentially no legit teams in college football?

Pretty much. Remember how people said that ND was NOT legit because they got blasted by Bama? Me too. Remember how people said that Clemson was a legit team BECAUSE they did beat Bama? Me too.

BUT what I meant is that UGA is not in anyway a legit CFB team. IF they were to beat Bama, then yes, I would say they are legit. But they simply are not a solid enough team to even compete with them. I think they score more than Vandy did against Bama, but it will not be close in the SECCG, at all.
 

BGIF

Varsity Club
Messages
43,946
Reaction score
2,922
Pretty much. Remember how people said that ND was NOT legit because they got blasted by Bama? Me too. Remember how people said that Clemson was a legit team BECAUSE they did beat Bama? Me too.

BUT what I meant is that UGA is not in anyway a legit CFB team. IF they were to beat Bama, then yes, I would say they are legit. But they simply are not a solid enough team to even compete with them. I think they score more than Vandy did against Bama, but it will not be close in the SECCG, at all.


So, there's only one legit team in college football. Shut down the season. No need to play the games.
 
Top