Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

Polish Leppy 22

Well-known member
Messages
6,594
Reaction score
2,009
That's just it. No one is looking around going "those policies Greece has are A+, we should look into them!"

We can look at successful countries and learn from them though. It's that simple.

I don't agree with Sanders on trying to be Scandinavia. But you're kidding yourself if you say we can't learn a thing or two from other developed nations. Tickledown isn't leading the pack when it comes to empowering the middle class.

Bluto was quick to defend Greece and slow to criticize their policies, leading one to believe the policies weren't to blame for their pitfall. Almost like saying, "Well, we can do the welfare state better than them if we just eliminate corruption and cronyism."
 

Polish Leppy 22

Well-known member
Messages
6,594
Reaction score
2,009
How about we just put the middle class first again so we can afford to go to college, get jobs that pay well, use our massive wealth to secure health care for people, etc. It's not rocket science. The rest of the developed world is moving past us as we are enamored with tickledown "well if we just let our corporations have everything they want then we'll be better off!" malarkey.



A bit more complicated than that.



Ever heard of a scare tactic? Or a pundit talking out of his ass?



So, so stupid.



More like "let the rest of us work our tails off for a smaller piece of the pie while the oligarchy on Long Island continues to gobble up a larger and larger share of the wealth. Let us continue to be nickled and dimed and get less in return. Let us be so blinded by patriotism that we don't see other countries beating us on social standards. We're #1! We're #1!"

1) Get a cup of coffee.

2) Who is against a strong middle class, lower tuition costs, and better health care? Not this guy. The premise that a larger federal government or more centralized power is the answer to our problems is laughable.

3) No, it's not that complicated. Don't make it harder than it is.

4) Anyone who passed 5th grade math knew long ago the Greeks (and many of their neighbors) would be in BIG financial trouble. The same person can look at our situation and say we have a rough road ahead if we don't change course.

5) So, so stupid? The smartest guy on IE puffs his chest yet again. Please.

6) These aren't the best of times in the US and I hope it ends soon, but the victim mentality isn't going to improve your situation or anyone else's.
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
I assumed it must be the anniversary of the National Defense Highway System that had you in your cups.

Despite your numerous rants at Eisenhower causing the demise of metropolitan America two pieces of legislation by FDR in 1938 and 1944, The Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1938 And The Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1944, while Ike was busy running a world war, set the groundwork for the Interstate Highway System. Eventually the plan meant to connect regions of the country together, much to the chagrin of the railroads, was corrupted by politicians, regional and city planners, and developers eager to create jobs in highways, roads, housing, and industry in their backyard furthering their careers and bank accounts.

100% agree. And even the bill Eisenhower passed was altered drastically by lobbyists.
 

pkt77242

IPA Man
Messages
10,805
Reaction score
719
Stupid article is stupid.

1. "Trickle down theory" isn't a real economic theory advocated by any significant group. It is little more than a pejorative strawman.
While the name isn't a real economic theory for most, the ideas behind it are real and believed by many people. That if you lower taxes on the rich or "job creators" that they will use the money in a way that will boost the economy and help the common person. Look at the Republicans in Congress right now.
2. The summary shows that this study is worthless: "In fact, researchers found that when the top earners in society make more money, it actually slows down economic growth. On the other hand, when poorer people earn more, society as a whole benefits."

Here's why. This study is meaningless unless you know what caused the top earners to make more money compared to when the bottom earners earned more. For example, inequality in the US has accerated during the Obama administration despite Obama's efforts to target inequality (increased taxes on the rich, etc.). In short, the attempt to make society "more equal" correlates with greater inequality.

In other periods in the US and for other countries, when income tax rates (across all brackets) are reduced and taxes on capital are reduced (often benefitting the rich more than the poor), you often (albeit not always) see lessening inequality as a result of increased economic growth.
Um, nope. The report and a report by the OECD show how the middle class and the poor are losing ground.
“Indeed, empirical estimations using more detailed data for Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development countries [34 of the world’s richest nations] suggest that, in line with other forthcoming IMF work, more lax hiring and firing regulations, lower minimum wages relative to the median wage, and less prevalent collective bargaining and trade unions are associated with higher market inequality.”
Shockingly that looks a lot like the U.S. right now.

As to the growing income inequality, it isn't shocking. Even though we raised some taxes on the wealthiest Americans, their income is growing at a significantly faster rate, and many of the richest Americans didn't get their taxes really changed at all because we didn't do anything to capital gains. Combined with the fact that the middle class and the poor aren't seeing any real gains in income the gap continues to grow. That is all basic math.

As to the bold, do you have links with the data?


3. Income inequality isn't what causes poor economic growth. Rather, severe income inequality is mainly a symptom of bad economic fundamentals, e.g., lack of private property rights and rule of law, authoritarian regimes, oligarchical control of the economy, corrupt over regulated states that prevent small and mid-sized players from succeeding (those without the political connections or money to get their licenses, etc.) and so forth.
Income inequality is also a symptom of how corporations treat their employees and of the greed (individuals and corporations) in the U.S. It is a symptom of publicly owned corporations that feel a need to increase profits every quarter, where being profitable isn't enough. Also as I already posted
“Indeed, empirical estimations using more detailed data for Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development countries [34 of the world’s richest nations] suggest that, in line with other forthcoming IMF work, more lax hiring and firing regulations, lower minimum wages relative to the median wage, and less prevalent collective bargaining and trade unions are associated with higher market inequality.”

What a shocker, trying to get rid of Unions is harming the average worker.

Pay low-income families more to boost economic growth, says IMF | Business | The Guardian

ETA: Sorry if this was a little disorganized, I was up all night with my sick daughter.
 
Last edited:

magogian

New member
Messages
1,467
Reaction score
155
Thanks for pointing me to the full paper. What a joke, lol.

There is an important reason this paper is merely an "IMF Staff Discussion Note" and not published in a peer-reviewed journal.

The model (Table 1 on page 7) is crap. It is unclear if they controlled for the convergence hypothesis. They say that controlling for human and physical capital doesn't affect their "main findings." So, umm OK, why didn't you demonstrate that? (In the relevant literature, human and physical capital are two of the most important determinants of economic growth.) And they don't even mention political or economic freedoms/institutions, which are also critically important to control for. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, half of their main findings (and even their Net Gini) aren't even statistically significant!

Thanks for wasting my morning on this crap.
 
Last edited:

connor_in

Oh Yeeaah!!!
Messages
11,433
Reaction score
1,006
CJzp-M9UwAANegK.png
 

phgreek

New member
Messages
6,956
Reaction score
433
This is interesting:

Obama commutes sentences of 46 federal prisoners

I think the origin of the strict laws needs to be understood...It seems to me there were nearly unanimous calls from communities to attack crack in order to save themselves...ie the communities called in an air strike on crack specifically...just my memory of the crack explosion....and the response to it.

So yea, it was overdone, and needs addressed. I do not like commuting sentences, but in this case it seems like a reasonable idea...the execution of the "program"...well, I won't hold my breath.
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,120
I would like to see the candidates talk about the water crisis in California and what can be done to rise to the challenge both now and in the future. There has been much debate over the past couple of years about building pipelines to carry tar sands oil from Canada to the U.S. Gulf Coast for processing. If we are going to build pipelines in this country, maybe it should be to move water instead. Much of the Mid-Atlantic Region has seen record rainfall over the past month. Meanwhile, California is experiencing a sustained drought that threatens the nation's food supply and a large segment of our economy. I want to hear a candidate talk about big ideas that would create jobs to build and maintain a nationwide system to move water where it is needed. This, in my mind, is the type of infrastructure that helps to ensure sustained prosperity across the country.

And, while we are at it, we should rebuild our electrical grid and incorporate sustainable energy sources into it to set the country up for success moving forward. Think of the jobs that could be created if we made the decision to become the world leader in renewable engergy. I've also read that our water systems beneath our cities are aging and failing -- I know, for example, that is a major problem in cities like Baltimore. Now should be the time to start the process of fixing it. Roads, highways and bridges are crumbling across the country. Put people to work rebuilding them. We must set the next generations up for success, and that begins with infrastructure.

I know all of this is going to cost big money, but I also think that the number of people who could be put to work in a full court press on infrastructure renewal could make the economy hum again, by putting lots of people to work with decent paying jobs. More people in better jobs increases incoming taxes, and fewer dollars are paid out in the "welfare state" programs that the GOP dispises so much. I am disgusted that my generation will be the first in which our children will not, on average, do as well as their parents. We decline as a society when we stop taking bold steps to get better and to hold onto the massive infrastructure advantages this country has enjoyed for more than a century.

This has always seemed like a no brainer to me. Why are we not doing this already? Thoughts?
 
Last edited:

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
I would like to see the candidates talk about the water crisis in California and what can be done to rise to the challenge both now and in the future. There has been much debate over the past couple of years about building pipelines to carry tar sands oil from Canada to the U.S. Gulf Coast for processing. If we are going to build pipelines in this country, maybe it should be to move water instead. Much of the Mid-Atlantic Region has seen record rainfall over the past month. Meanwhile, California is experiencing a sustained drought that threatens the nation's food supply and a large segment of our economy. I want to hear a candidate talk about big ideas that would create jobs to build and maintain a nationwide system to move water where it is needed. This, in my mind, is the type of infrastructure that helps to ensure sustained prosperity across the country.

And, while we are at it, we should rebuild our electrical grid and incorporate sustainable energy sources into it to set the country up for success moving forward. Think of the jobs that could be created if we made the decision to become the world leader in renewable engergy. I've also read that our water systems beneath our cities are aging and failing -- I know, for example, that is a major problem in cities like Baltimore. Now should be the time to start the process of fixing it. Roads, highways and bridges are crumbling across the country. Put people to work rebuilding them. We must set the next generations up for success, and that begins with infrastructure.

I know all of this is going to cost big money, but I also think that the number of people who could be put to work in a full court press on infrastructure renewal could make the economy hum again, but putting lots of people to work with decent paying jobs. More people in better jobs increases incoming taxes, and fewer dollars are paid out in the "welfare state" programs that the GOP dispises so much. I am disgusted that my generation will be the first in which our children will not, on average, do as well as their parents. We decline as a society when we stop taking bold steps to get better and to hold onto the massive infrastructure advantages this country has enjoyed for more than a century.

This has always seemed like a no brainer to me. Why are we not doing this already? Thoughts?

That would mean that they would have to debate an actual topic and provide honest ideas. I don't see it happening.

Re: Water Pipelines. California, Nevada and every other wasteful state in the union using up more than their share of water can get fuq'd if they think they have the right to take water from the Great Lakes. They have been overpopulating, overusing and overfarming their regions for decades. Michigan shouldn't have to solely take on their burden.

They need to fix their underlying problems. Like better farming practices, not having million-watt cities in the middle of the effing desert and quit planting Asiatic grasses all over arid climates. Until then, they can all lay in the bed they made for themselves.
 

zelezo vlk

Well-known member
Messages
18,011
Reaction score
5,049
As I understand, since everyone is already for infrastructure maintenance and development that there's nothing to gain politically by bringing it up. I could be wrong.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,120
That would mean that they would have to debate an actual topic and provide honest ideas. I don't see it happening.

Re: Water Pipelines. California, Nevada and every other wasteful state in the union using up more than their share of water can get fuq'd if they think they have the right to take water from the Great Lakes. They have been overpopulating, overusing and overfarming their regions for decades. Michigan shouldn't have to solely take on their burden.

They need to fix their underlying problems. Like better farming practices, not having million-watt cities in the middle of the effing desert and quit planting Asiatic grasses all over arid climates. Until then, they can all lay in the bed they made for themselves.

I do not disagree about reforming practices to find efficiencies, but we are all in that bed together as we are all interconnected. California has the 7th biggest economy in the world on its own. I do not think it would be smart to just shrug our collective shoulders and say screw them.
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
Cack's Water Policy Posts
wizards went off on this topic previously. I posted the following response starting at Post 237. BusterBluth and Whiskeyjack added some great info as well. Worth checking out I think.

We definitely cannot say screw you to California. Our nationwide economy depends on them and their ability to have water. We definitely need to revamp the efficiency and amount used.
 
Last edited:

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
Cack's Water Policy Posts
wizards went off on this topic previously. I posted the following response starting at Post 237. BusterBluth and Whiskeyjack added some great info as well. Worth checking out I think.

We definitely cannot say screw you to California. Our nationwide economy depends on them and their ability to have water. We definitely need to revamp the efficiency and amount used.

Here's my point. It doesn't have to be California. They do not have a unique trait that means we must focus all of our agriculture there. We could give those subsidies to states with common growing ability with better access to water. We can tell Las Vegas that they need to pay proportionally for building the most wasteful city outside of Dubai. These are all fixes that wont kill our economy and royally fuck the resources of the state I live in.

The water ills of the country are not Michigan's problem. We shouldn't have to fix them, and if we do, we should be paid proportionally for those fixes.

It's bullshit that everyone keeps telling us in Michigan that we need to "take one for the team" in order to save California, provide crystal clear pools in Vegas and keep Acamp's Kentucky Blue Grass green. If they want our water, they should have to make changes first. Their economy and way of life is structured on false pretenses that cannot exist without the aid of others. That by definition, is a false economy.
 

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
This is interesting:

Obama commutes sentences of 46 federal prisoners

I think the origin of the strict laws needs to be understood...It seems to me there were nearly unanimous calls from communities to attack crack in order to save themselves...ie the communities called in an air strike on crack specifically...just my memory of the crack explosion....and the response to it.

So yea, it was overdone, and needs addressed. I do not like commuting sentences, but in this case it seems like a reasonable idea...the execution of the "program"...well, I won't hold my breath.

Here is something kinda weird with this story. One of the people that had their sentence commuted was the mother of Damaryius Thomas from the Broncos.

Denver Broncos Demaryius Thomas dreams of reuniting his estranged family
 

connor_in

Oh Yeeaah!!!
Messages
11,433
Reaction score
1,006
And it begins already...


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Obama says sanction relief staggered, conditional:
<a href="https://t.co/IHbR6eLQiL">https://t.co/IHbR6eLQiL</a>
<a href="https://twitter.com/HassanRouhani">@HassanRouhani</a> says immediately OFF
<a href="https://t.co/eReDqcpjMH">https://t.co/eReDqcpjMH</a></p>— el Sooper ن (@SooperMexican) <a href="https://twitter.com/SooperMexican/status/620923526623666176">July 14, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,120
Cack's Water Policy Posts
wizards went off on this topic previously. I posted the following response starting at Post 237. BusterBluth and Whiskeyjack added some great info as well. Worth checking out I think.

We definitely cannot say screw you to California. Our nationwide economy depends on them and their ability to have water. We definitely need to revamp the efficiency and amount used.

I remember those posts. Great topic. But we drilled down a little on water this morning, but that was only part of my original post. Broadly looking at revamping infrastructure (including water, renewable energy, sewerage, roads bridges, etc.) was the overarching point. Today water is a huge issue out west, but we have plenty of problems that require our focus. These cooincidently all have the potential to become major job creaters for our economy. These are the types of issues we need to take on as a country, and given the ramping up of the election, these are the topics that I'd like to see politicians focusing on to steer the conversation to something more than Hillary is shrill and corrupt, and the GOP candidates are out of touch with the country and have no new ideas. We are better than that, and it is high time we, as a country, started talking about substantial issues that affect everyone.
 

RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
Messages
8,622
Reaction score
2,724
Cack's Water Policy Posts
wizards went off on this topic previously. I posted the following response starting at Post 237. BusterBluth and Whiskeyjack added some great info as well. Worth checking out I think.

We definitely cannot say screw you to California. Our nationwide economy depends on them and their ability to have water. We definitely need to revamp the efficiency and amount used.

Waukesha fights for a share of Lake Michigan's water | Marketplace.org

Most of Wisconsin can't touch Lake Michigan yet Go Irish thinks we should pipe it to California? Why not build desalination plants to provide California water? Not economical? Oh, then maybe your 7th largest economy in the world is exploiting other places and should pay up for services received instead of legislating for free access. Farming has never been a risk free endeavor and I'm appalled that anyone would think government should try to make it one.
 

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
Waukesha fights for a share of Lake Michigan's water | Marketplace.org

Most of Wisconsin can't touch Lake Michigan yet Go Irish thinks we should pipe it to California? Why not build desalination plants to provide California water? Not economical? Oh, then maybe your 7th largest economy in the world is exploiting other places and should pay up for services received instead of legislating for free access. Farming has never been a risk free endeavor and I'm appalled that anyone would think government should try to make it one.

giphy.gif
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,120
Waukesha fights for a share of Lake Michigan's water | Marketplace.org

Most of Wisconsin can't touch Lake Michigan yet Go Irish thinks we should pipe it to California? Why not build desalination plants to provide California water? Not economical? Oh, then maybe your 7th largest economy in the world is exploiting other places and should pay up for services received instead of legislating for free access. Farming has never been a risk free endeavor and I'm appalled that anyone would think government should try to make it one.

Lots of assumptions in this post about things that I simply did not say. Did I mention Lake Michigan? Did I mention providing free water to California? Did I poo poo desalinasation plants or suggest that there was no room to rework water rights issues? Did I suggest that government should try to make farming a "free endeavor?"

The point here is that, economically, as goes California, so goes the rest of the country. We need to stop thinking small and selfish and realize that we are all tied together. We should go back to being the country that we once were ... where we take on big problems and figure them out. Isn't everyone sick of the bickering and the do-nothing bullshit?
 

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
Lots of assumptions in this post about things that I simply did not say. Did I mention Lake Michigan? Did I mention providing free water to California? Did I poo poo desalinasation plants or suggest that there was no room to rework water rights issues? Did I suggest that government should try to make farming a "free endeavor?"

The point here is that, economically, as goes California, so goes the rest of the country. We need to stop thinking small and selfish and realize that we are all tied together. We should go back to being the country that we once were ... where we take on big problems and figure them out. Isn't everyone sick of the bickering and the do-nothing bullshit?

I don't think he was implying that you did, but I think its also over-simplistic to simply say "As California Goes, As Does The Country". The better question is, "Does it have to"? If the 7th largest economy in the world is that easily susceptible, then that in and of itself, something we need to address. The reality is that your original comment about this being a topic worthy of debate is dead on. The conversation needs to happen, and that conversation most likely, needs to include how we start the process of diversifying that economy into other states. As our country is too heavily focused in regions that cannot support their own infrastructure needs.
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
I would love for California to figure out desalination. I would love for them to stop yanking so much water out if the ground that they stop sinking. I would love for some other states figure out how to grow fruits and veggies year round. I am not arguing that at all and agree with you guys RDU and woolybug25. However California's entire agricultural economy as well as it's citizens in the southern half have ALWAYS relied on water pulled from outside the state or extraction of groundwater at unsustainable rates. People are freaking out about not being able to water their lawns...... Obviously ACamp need his pool.

My larger point is can we sustain it? Is it possible to continue like this without MAJOR restructuring of infrastructure. No definitely not. And leaving California alone to fix it's own problems will be disastrous. We definitely need California to start doing it ASAP and I don't think any other state should be required to help but I need my fruits....
 
Last edited:
C

Cackalacky

Guest
How long before the Great Plains runs out of water? - The Washington Post

Ogallala Aquifer - yeah water is a problem in more than California. Not to mention the Mississippi delta dead zone thanks to farmers. But they are a protected class so it is OK to screw the environment in fact. Enviros are only concerned with more extraneous assaults on humanity.

Ehhhhh clean fresh water is a problem everywhere. Plenty of environmentally conscious people are aware of it. Politicians and the common lay person in developed countries however don't give two shits. I had a whole class on global water sources. It's a definite concern.
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,120
I don't think he was implying that you did, but I think its also over-simplistic to simply say "As California Goes, As Does The Country". The better question is, "Does it have to"? If the 7th largest economy in the world is that easily susceptible, then that in and of itself, something we need to address. The reality is that your original comment about this being a topic worthy of debate is dead on. The conversation needs to happen, and that conversation most likely, needs to include how we start the process of diversifying that economy into other states. As our country is too heavily focused in regions that cannot support their own infrastructure needs.

I don't think he was implying it either. I think he stated it, naming me by name as the person who is suggesting draining Lake Michigan for the benefit of California.

Anyway, I agree with your post. If diversifying the economy into other states is the answer (or part of AN answer), then the conversation should begin. During the Depression and following WWII, the country began massive infrastructure projects that changed our society in a positive way. Peoples' lives improved as a result. But, much of that infrastructure is crumbling and/or is approaching obsolescence. In my view now is the time to take another look at it, before not good enough becomes a national emergency. I believe we have grown complacent as a society when it comes to these problems. We have taken our eye off the ball and taken for granted the infrastructure that was put in place by previous generations. We have grown, and technology has surpassed that infrastructure. My original post was to apply more focus in these areas, which could have long-term benefits (a solid foundation for our children and future generations) as well as immediate benefits (massive job growth and increased national prosperity). I don't want to get bogged down in one potential solution or the other or even one of the infrastructure issues or the other, but am more interested in a national debate beginning. This is why I framed my post in terms of presidential candidates sparking these conversations. I want someone who is going to think big about substantive issues that affect all Americans. I think most of us are weary of the bickering and pointless political ideological arguments and have an appatite for leaders who want to guide the conversation in a productive direction. I'd like to see the focus on these issues to be similar to the focus we once had on putting a man on the moon. I fear that if we do not we will decline as a nation. Many would argue that that decline has already begun. I think it can be turned around.
 

Bluto

Well-known member
Messages
8,146
Reaction score
3,979
Pools if properly covered are way less water intensive than lawns. So go on A Camp, bask and indulge in the indoor outdoor lifestyle all Californians will defend to the death with the fervor of Texas ranchers being forced to pay back taxes owed to the Federal Government.
 

ACamp1900

Counting my ‘bet against ND’ winnings
Messages
48,947
Reaction score
11,225
Pools if properly covered are way less water intensive than lawns. So go on A Camp, bask and indulge in the indoor outdoor lifestyle all Californians will defend to the death with the fervor of Texas ranchers being forced to pay back taxes owed to the Federal Government.

I like fresh water, so I drain it once a month and re fill it...
 
Top