Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
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    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

Emcee77

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I know the SCOTUS ruling which is why ALL religious statuary is allowed now. But my point is that with that ruling comes the consequences. Its quite possible that Oklahoma, who already has cases out from other religious groups wanting to put statues up that they are choosing to ignore the SCOTUS ruling to prevent having to deal with the unintended consequences of displaying ALL religious iconography on state grounds.

My final point being is that the SCOTUS ruling is a bad one IMO and religious iconography has no business or legal reason for being on state grounds.

Local governments don't have to put up any and all religious statues anyone wants them to put up just because there is a statue of the Ten Commandments there. It depends on the context.

I was honestly kind of stunned to see the kind of language Oklahoma has in its constitution prohibiting any public support of religion, direct or indirect. It's really broad and goes way beyond what the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment requires. I wasn't expecting that in the state of Oral Roberts.
 
C

Cackalacky

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Local governments don't have to put up any and all religious statues anyone wants them to put up just because there is a statue of the Ten Commandments there. It depends on the context.

I was honestly kind of stunned to see the kind of language Oklahoma has in its constitution prohibiting any public support of religion, direct or indirect. It's really broad and goes way beyond what the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment requires. I wasn't expecting that in the state of Oral Roberts.

Maybe I am misunderstanding....why would local governments not have to put up others if they put up the 10 Commandments? I know they couch it in historical context or other methods of framing it other than as religious iconography. But they would effectively be discriminating against other religions if they refuse to display them as prominently as they display the 10 Commandments and that is prohibited by the establishment clause of the constitution. The government shall not promote or prefer one religion over another.
 

Emcee77

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Maybe I am misunderstanding....why would local governments not have to put up others if they put up the 10 Commandments? I know they couch it in historical context or other methods of framing it other than as religious iconography. But they would effectively be discriminating against other religions if they refuse to display them as prominently as they display the 10 Commandments and that is prohibited by the establishment clause of the constitution. The government shall not promote or prefer one religion over another.

It's just not that simple. In the Texas case, the decision hinged on the fact that, in context, the display didn't predominantly endorse the religious message of the statue of the Commandments; the statue sent a historical message about moral foundations. But that's a context-specific inquiry that has also come out differently (on the same day as the Texas decision, the Court held that a Kentucky display of the Ten Commandments had to come down).

Another way is if the government adopts the message as government speech. In 2009 the Supreme Court allowed a donated statue of the Ten Commandments to stand in a park in Utah without requiring the local government to put up another statue donated by Summum, a religious sect. Under the Free Speech Clause, the government has its own right to speak, and it does not have to speak with perfect neutrality. (Government speech does still have to comport with the Establishment Clause; this particular case was presented and decided only on Free Speech grounds, probably because the Court had already said that a statue of the Ten Commandments was kosher under the Establishment Clause in the Texas case.)

Now, if the government has a section of a park where it allows people to put up their own religious displays, it has to open that area up to everybody. That might be what you are thinking of.
 
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IrishinSyria

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It's just not that simple. In the Texas case, the decision hinged on the fact that, in context, the display didn't predominantly endorse the religious message of the statue of the Commandments; the statue sent a historical message about moral foundations. But that's a context-specific inquiry that has also come out differently (on the same day as the Texas decision, the Court held that a Kentucky display of the Ten Commandments had to come down).

Another way is if the government adopts the message as government speech. In 2009 the Supreme Court allowed a donated statue of the Ten Commandments to stand in a park in Utah without requiring the local government to put up another statue donated by Summum, a religious sect. Under the Free Speech Clause, the government has its own right to speak, and it does not have to speak with perfect neutrality. (Government speech does still have to comport with the Establishment Clause; this particular case was presented and decided only on Free Speech grounds, probably because the Court had already said that a statue of the Ten Commandments was kosher in the Texas case.)

Now, if the government has a section of a park where it allows people to put up their own religious displays, it has to open that area up to everybody. That might be what you are thinking of.

The government speech argument seems weak at best.
 
C

Cackalacky

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It's just not that simple. In the Texas case, the decision hinged on the fact that, in context, the display didn't predominantly endorse the religious message of the statue of the Commandments; the statue sent a historical message about moral foundations. But that's a context-specific inquiry that has also come out differently (on the same day as the Texas decision, the Court held that a Kentucky display of the Ten Commandments had to come down).

Another way is if the government adopts the message as government speech. In 2009 the Supreme Court allowed a donated statue of the Ten Commandments to stand in a park in Utah without requiring the local government to put up another statue donated by Summum, a religious sect. Under the Free Speech Clause, the government has its own right to speak, and it does not have to speak with perfect neutrality. (Government speech does still have to comport with the Establishment Clause; this particular case was presented and decided only on Free Speech grounds, probably because the Court had already said that a statue of the Ten Commandments was kosher under the Establishment Clause in the Texas case.)

Now, if the government has a section of a park where it allows people to put up their own religious displays, it has to open that area up to everybody. That might be what you are thinking of.

Don't get me wrong, and I know there is a lot of nuance in legal cases that fails to get translated when discussing but I just don't buy that that is the intent by displaying the 10 commandments. Its quite obvious religious and the intent is quite obvious to display a central tenet of Christianity. And Americans have been trying this since I can remember but have been rebuffed most every time.

It seems to me this is a very narrow interpretation (not you but he the courts) that it gets to be displayed which I why I think it is a bad one IMO. What would the standard or justification be for meeting historical context of moral foundations? Its likely a strict standard that only a few would meet. Certainly other societies have had moral codes not based on Christianity. If they reject others, then it is at least a tacit confirmation of Judeo Christian principles. Right?
 

Emcee77

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Don't get me wrong, and I know there is a lot of nuance in legal cases that fails to get translated when discussing but I just don't buy that that is the intent by displaying the 10 commandments. Its quite obvious religious and the intent is quite obvious to display a central tenet of Christianity. And Americans have been trying this since I can remember but have been rebuffed most every time.

It seems to me this is a very narrow interpretation (not you but he the courts) that it gets to be displayed which I why I think it is a bad one IMO. What would the standard or justification be for meeting historical context of moral foundations? Its likely a strict standard that only a few would meet. Certainly other societies have had moral codes not based on Christianity. If they reject others, then it is at least a tacit confirmation of Judeo Christian principles. Right?

Well, generally the test for religious displays is endorsement. Would a reasonable person believe that the government is endorsing a particular religious message by displaying certain religious symbols?

To illustrate: In Allegheny County, PA, there was a nativity scene in a courthouse at Christmastime. Near the scene was an associated sign that said something like Glory to God for the birth of our Savior (not sure exact words). SCOTUS said that violates the Establishment Clause because it endorses the message that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior. Take it down.

In Pawtucket, RI, some years prior to the Pennsylvania case, the town put up a Christmas display in a shopping district at Christmastime. The text said, Season's Greetings, and there were images of Santa Claus, a Christmas tree ... and a nativity scene. SCOTUS said there was no Establishment Clause violation because there was no endorsement. Those are just familiar Christmas symbols to celebrate the season; there isn't really a religious message being sent, at least not in a proselytizing or evangelical way. Display can stay up.

I'm kind of oversimplifying this; not every judge endorses the endorsement test. Scalia and Thomas are sticking with the old-fashioned coercion test. I think in the Kentucky case Souter used the three-pronged Lemon test, which is not well-suited to these types of cases. Breyer used the no-test test in the Texas case; I don't know how that is supposed to help us figure out what the law is. O'Connor developed the endorsement test in the Rhode Island case, and imo it's the best and fairest one for these cases, but I'm not sure the Court really agrees on it. But anyway this is basically how these cases tend to go.
 
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Huntr

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I love when clueless politicians do these.

Jindal's #AskBobby twitter thing. Hilarious.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/AskBobby?src=hash">#AskBobby</a> Do you think that you bring more shame to Louisianans or to other Rhodes Scholars?</p>— jeremydnichols (@jeremydnichols) <a href="https://twitter.com/jeremydnichols/status/615998693045481472">June 30, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/AskBobby?src=hash">#AskBobby</a> are snails bugs. Answer me, Governor</p>— patrick (@pattymo) <a href="https://twitter.com/pattymo/status/615998527144132608">June 30, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/AskBobby?src=hash">#AskBobby</a> when you're elected will you bring your pet alligator to the White House?</p>— Kerry B. Faler (@kerrybee) <a href="https://twitter.com/kerrybee/status/615998422026317824">June 30, 2015</a></blockquote>
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connor_in

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ts0S8Nq.png
 

Whiskeyjack

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ND Professor Patrick Deneen just published an article titled "Getting Beyond the 'Right to Be Wrong'":

Now that the decision has been rendered, the question is now “What next?” The outcome was not surprising; what happens next, however, is as predictable as it is troubling. Religious liberty is destined for the same fate as traditional marriage. As many perceptive defenders of faith have long understood, advances in official recognition of same-sex relations—including, but not limited to, marriage, adoption, employment law, education, tax law, etc.—would necessarily come into conflict with religious belief, believers, and institutions. Some prescient thinkers began organizing for this eventuality by advancing the case for strengthening religious liberty as a bulwark.

However, things have shifted radically since those efforts began. In the recent Indiana RFRA fiasco, we witnessed a coalition of same-sex activists and major corporations combining to eviscerate the Indiana law protecting conscience rights. The activists succeeded in tarring the very words “religious liberty” with the same poisonous taint with which the words “Jim Crow” are heard. Newspapers began reporting on “so-called” religious liberty or simply putting the words in scare-quotes, in order to indicate that they understood the words to be code for something else.

The plain fact of the matter is that not only did traditional marriage lose in Obergefell, but as several of the dissenting opinions ominously intoned, so did religious liberty receive notice of its demise. Defenders of each have partly failed to mount an effective defense, however, because both defenses have misunderstood the very nature of liberalism. Failing to see the way their defenses play by the rules of liberalism has blinded many from seeing that their defenses can’t win on liberal grounds.

Architects of the strategy to enshrine religious liberty protections into federal and state law believed liberalism’s self-description: a form of governance that was neutral to ultimate ends and allowed the greatest possible individual and institutional liberty in pursuit of ends diversely understood, so long as those forms of pursuit did not constitute harm to others. The liberal state was thus understood to be neutral to ultimate ends, allowing a flourishing of various, diverse, distinct, and plural ideas of the good. Liberalism, by this reckoning, is organized around “the fact of pluralism.”

This belief underlies one of the first works that laid out the rationale for bolstering religious liberty protections: The Right to be Wrong, by Beckett Fund founder Kevin “Seamus” Hasson. As Hasson’s subtitle—“Ending the Culture War Over Religion in America”—suggested, if the warring parties could simply agree to let believers believe without interference or preference, we could secure peace in our time. The liberal state could be the neutral arbiter, permitting wide and diverse religious beliefs, protecting the right to be wrong.

This view has come to the dominant position of those defending religious liberty. However, it was premised on a belief that liberalism itself could be understood to be “contentless,” itself holding no opinion toward the various ways that religious believers might be “wrong.” This belief continues to animate the work and efforts of those who work on behalf of religious liberty. These advocates have been surprised at the illiberalism of their opponents, that is, those who would deny expression of some forms of belief—particularly regarding opposition to same-sex marriage. Yet, this reaction is only warranted if liberalism was what they thought it was.

Liberalism, however, was never “contentless,” and its toleration was always limited to specific kinds of belief that would conform to deeper liberal anthropological assumptions. At the very outset of the liberal tradition promoting religious toleration, John Locke famously excluded Catholics from toleration because of their acknowledgment of a “foreign potentate.” Religious belief was acceptable to the extent that it gave primary acknowledgement of the state’s authority to determine the limits of toleration, and presumptively either that it was private (worship) or that its public expression comported with the basic assumptions and tenets of liberalism.

Liberalism has always been defined by a particular anthropology: that human envisioned in the state of nature—autonomous, self-owning, driven by interest, appetite, and will. It is a nominalist philosophy that pits humans against the natural order, encouraging them to become “masters and possessors of nature.” It is a materialist and economistic system of belief that shapes a people to become consumers. It is a voluntarist philosophy that teaches us that all relationships are chosen, fungible, born of utility, and revisable. It advances a view of liberty understood to be the absence of constraint rather than the cultivation of virtue that leads to forms of self-government. In short, it is hardly neutral.

Liberalism has always had a rich and thick content, and more aptly should be compared to…a religion. Indeed, liberalism is nothing but the reinstitution of a form of civil religion that mimicked many features of Christianity, including a recognition of separate spheres of church and state, an emphasis upon the dignity of the individual, and the presumption of a pre-political social state. But liberalism, in fact, advanced a re-definition of those features, the institution of a new form of belief that gradually replaced the religious forms that it mimicked. The purported decline of religious believers so prevalent in our time simply masks the fact that they have become full members of the Church of Liberalism, and demand fealty to the religion of the state. It is completely understandable to see why so many smart people have worked tirelessly to secure religious liberty, but it is also tragic that they have often done so working blindly, unaware that their pleas do not work within a neutral set of political procedures, but from within the established Church of Liberalism.

Indeed, what we have seen in recent weeks, months, and years are titanic efforts by a variety of religious believers and allies to develop reasonable arguments in defense of long-held beliefs regarding conjugal marriage. Those arguments have been answered—first in the public sphere, and now in the guiding opinion of Justice Kennedy—simply by the word “love.” Accusations are now ubiquitous that continued belief in the privileged place of conjugal marriage is based upon mere irrational faith, animus, and bigotry. The reaction of defenders of same-sex marriage has been, quite simply, an invocation of faith commitment, without need for or even ability to make rational argument. Opponents to that position are heretics who must be suppressed, and claims to religious liberty—the right to be wrong—will be accorded all the respect that Christians were once given in the Colosseum.

It is time for those who work on behalf of religious liberty to recognize the true nature of our situation. I deeply respect and admire their work, but regrettably I believe it will fail. We live in a State with an established religion, and any beliefs that contradict that faith must and will be eliminated. We must cease to ask for the “right to be wrong,” and instead insist upon the right of Truth.
 

yankeehater

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I heard someone speaking about the SCOTUS decision and their point was marriage used to be about the children and this is no longer the case. They also brought up the fact this will bring about more fatherless homes. Here are some statistics they discussed and stated this will only increase.

U.S. Fatherless Statistics
Fatherless Stats

1. 43% of US children live without their father [US Department of Census]

2. 90% of homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes. [US D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census]

3. 80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes. [Criminal Justice & Behaviour, Vol 14, pp. 403-26, 1978]

4. 71% of pregnant teenagers lack a father. [U.S. Department of Health and Human Services press release, Friday, March 26, 1999]

5. 63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes. [US D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census]

6. 85% of children who exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes. [Center for Disease Control]

7. 90% of adolescent repeat arsonists live with only their mother. [Wray Herbert, “Dousing the Kindlers,” Psychology Today, January, 1985, p. 28]

8. 71% of high school dropouts come from fatherless homes. [National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools]

9. 75% of adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes. [Rainbows f for all God’s Children]

10. 70% of juveniles in state operated institutions have no father. [US Department of Justice, Special Report, Sept. 1988]

11. 85% of youths in prisons grew up in a fatherless home. [Fulton County Georgia jail populations, Texas Department of Corrections, 1992]

12. Fatherless boys and girls are: twice as likely to drop out of high school; twice as likely to end up in jail; four times more likely to need help for emotional or behavioral problems. [US D.H.H.S. news release, March 26, 1999]
 
B

Buster Bluth

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I have to be honest, I just don't understand the marriage equality angle at all here. Those who are against gay marriage often use polygamy as a slippery slope, I just don't see it.

I guess if you think gay marriage destroyed marriage, then you will jump to that conclusion more easily. For me, polygamy is something completely different. Honestly they'd have a better argument with incestual marriages.

The difference between polygamy and marriage is obvious: two. Two people form a marriage. You aren't born a polygamist, you are born straight or gay. So two straight people can get marriage, or two gay people can. It seems pretty simple and I don't really have any doubts that courts would see it that way too.
 

Irish YJ

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Depends on how attractive they are, because you might want to run away.

I'm picking my own two wives brother.
Couple hot, batshit crazy girls.
I kid.. about the batshit crazy... So long as they can cook, clean, mow the grass, and enjoy Dukes of Hazard reruns I'm good :)
 

GoIrish41

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I heard someone speaking about the SCOTUS decision and their point was marriage used to be about the children and this is no longer the case. They also brought up the fact this will bring about more fatherless homes. Here are some statistics they discussed and stated this will only increase.

U.S. Fatherless Statistics
Fatherless Stats

1. 43% of US children live without their father [US Department of Census]

2. 90% of homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes. [US D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census]

3. 80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes. [Criminal Justice & Behaviour, Vol 14, pp. 403-26, 1978]

4. 71% of pregnant teenagers lack a father. [U.S. Department of Health and Human Services press release, Friday, March 26, 1999]

5. 63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes. [US D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census]

6. 85% of children who exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes. [Center for Disease Control]

7. 90% of adolescent repeat arsonists live with only their mother. [Wray Herbert, “Dousing the Kindlers,” Psychology Today, January, 1985, p. 28]

8. 71% of high school dropouts come from fatherless homes. [National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools]

9. 75% of adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes. [Rainbows f for all God’s Children]

10. 70% of juveniles in state operated institutions have no father. [US Department of Justice, Special Report, Sept. 1988]

11. 85% of youths in prisons grew up in a fatherless home. [Fulton County Georgia jail populations, Texas Department of Corrections, 1992]

12. Fatherless boys and girls are: twice as likely to drop out of high school; twice as likely to end up in jail; four times more likely to need help for emotional or behavioral problems. [US D.H.H.S. news release, March 26, 1999]
How will gay marriage increase fatherless homes. I am confused.
 

yankeehater

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If two women marry, where is the male?

The statistic is not whether there are two parents only if there is a male influence/role model in the house.

During the interview, someone fired off the loving household point. He shot back that means you are assuming a single parent household is not loving.
 

BobbyMac

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Interesting. I've always looked at stats like that from the out of wedlock angle vs. simply fatherless households. It's obvious the Ward and June Cleaver model works best. I failed at it, so I won't throw stones.

I also just picked this up finally. Anyone with an opinion on Hedges? Whiskey, seems up your alley...

WagesofRebellionFINAL-horz.jpg
 

pkt77242

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I heard someone speaking about the SCOTUS decision and their point was marriage used to be about the children and this is no longer the case. They also brought up the fact this will bring about more fatherless homes. Here are some statistics they discussed and stated this will only increase.

U.S. Fatherless Statistics
Fatherless Stats

1. 43% of US children live without their father [US Department of Census]

2. 90% of homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes. [US D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census]

3. 80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes. [Criminal Justice & Behaviour, Vol 14, pp. 403-26, 1978]

4. 71% of pregnant teenagers lack a father. [U.S. Department of Health and Human Services press release, Friday, March 26, 1999]

5. 63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes. [US D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census]

6. 85% of children who exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes. [Center for Disease Control]

7. 90% of adolescent repeat arsonists live with only their mother. [Wray Herbert, “Dousing the Kindlers,” Psychology Today, January, 1985, p. 28]

8. 71% of high school dropouts come from fatherless homes. [National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools]

9. 75% of adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes. [Rainbows f for all God’s Children]

10. 70% of juveniles in state operated institutions have no father. [US Department of Justice, Special Report, Sept. 1988]

11. 85% of youths in prisons grew up in a fatherless home. [Fulton County Georgia jail populations, Texas Department of Corrections, 1992]

12. Fatherless boys and girls are: twice as likely to drop out of high school; twice as likely to end up in jail; four times more likely to need help for emotional or behavioral problems. [US D.H.H.S. news release, March 26, 1999]

Not to put a damper on your point but what does this have to do with gay marriage? Did any of these studies compare fatherless homes to two female households?
 

IrishinSyria

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Not to put a damper on your point but what does this have to do with gay marriage? Did any of these studies compare fatherless homes to two female households?

I second this, but with a motive to damper. Those stats mean nothing in the current context because fatherless basically means single-parent. Says nothing about lesbian couples. I don't think having a dick is the secret to good parenting.

edit: also, even if it was just smoke-and-mirrors with stats, it's a dumb, and quite frankly cruel, argument to make. Obergefell wasn't about the right to adopt, it was about the right to get married. The gay couples in question could ALREADY ADOPT CHILDREN*! So can single parents! When it comes to children, the question wasn't "should we allow gays to adopt", it was "should we punish children adopted by gay parents by denying them the benefits of having married parents."


*or do a turkey baster baby
 
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connor_in

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I have to be honest, I just don't understand the marriage equality angle at all here. Those who are against gay marriage often use polygamy as a slippery slope, I just don't see it.

I guess if you think gay marriage destroyed marriage, then you will jump to that conclusion more easily. For me, polygamy is something completely different. Honestly they'd have a better argument with incestual marriages.

The difference between polygamy and marriage is obvious: two. Two people form a marriage. You aren't born a polygamist, you are born straight or gay. So two straight people can get marriage, or two gay people can. It seems pretty simple and I don't really have any doubts that courts would see it that way too.

First off, I am not for polygamy, I put the article here to spark the conversation because, yes, many people argued SSM would start the slippery slope to this and beyond and this article shows someone trying to test the waters already and I wanted to see what people here would say. Next I have to ask why do say that marriage is two people. Where do you get that definition? Is it in the US Constitution? Could a vain person marry himself/herself for a one person marriage?

I admit part of this is smart-assery on my part, but I do have to ask why limit marriage to two? There are religions that practice polygamy throughout the world and so it is not an uncommon thing. In fact, it probably has been more common worldwide than SSM. Also, I gotta ask, the incestual marriage you are referring to, you are at least referring to both people being of legal age, correct?
 

Ndaccountant

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First off, I am not for polygamy, I put the article here to spark the conversation because, yes, many people argued SSM would start the slippery slope to this and beyond and this article shows someone trying to test the waters already and I wanted to see what people here would say. Next I have to ask why do say that marriage is two people. Where do you get that definition? Is it in the US Constitution? Could a vain person marry himself/herself for a one person marriage?

I admit part of this is smart-assery on my part, but I do have to ask why limit marriage to two? There are religions that practice polygamy throughout the world and so it is not an uncommon thing. In fact, it probably has been more common worldwide than SSM. Also, I gotta ask, the incestual marriage you are referring to, you are at least referring to both people being of legal age, correct?

I'll bite. For fiscal reasons, it almost has to be two people. When you think of the fiscal protections spouses receive (social security, health insurance, divorce, etc), it's very difficult to project a scenario where there could be legal and rational ways to make it work with multiple partners. For example, is a woman divorcing a man who has 5 wives entitled to 50% of assets? 20%?

Instead, where the argument should be, is whether or not polygamy is decriminalized.
 

connor_in

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I'll bite. For fiscal reasons, it almost has to be two people. When you think of the fiscal protections spouses receive (social security, health insurance, divorce, etc), it's very difficult to project a scenario where there could be legal and rational ways to make it work with multiple partners. For example, is a woman divorcing a man who has 5 wives entitled to 50% of assets? 20%?

Instead, where the argument should be, is whether or not polygamy is decriminalized.

Continuing to play devil's advocate...why not divide by the number of members of the marriage? Why would that have any problems with legalities and rationality? By the way, in your example it would actually be 16.7% as 1 man + 5 wives = 6 members of the marriage. 100 divided by 6 = 16.7 (I know, I know, math are hard)
 

IrishinSyria

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Continuing to play devil's advocate...why not divide by the number of members of the marriage? Why would that have any problems with legalities and rationality? By the way, in your example it would actually be 16.7% as 1 man + 5 wives = 6 members of the marriage. 100 divided by 6 = 16.7 (I know, I know, math are hard)

Not every asset is divisible, and not every legal right that comes with marriage relates to property.

If one partner in a polygamous relationship dies and the rest want to split, who gets the child? If one partner gets in a crash and is unresponsive, who makes their medical decisions? You can go on and on with this...marriage is a set of rules designed to give legal rights to two people. You'd have to completely rewrite those rules to accomodate polygammy in a way that just wasn't true for gay marriage. It might have been different 100 years ago when the woman played a subordinate legal role in the marital relationship, but those rules have, for the most part, been displaced for completely unrelated reasons.

No matter how many times people bring up polygammy, it's just not a good or realistic argument. Maybe in 100 years marriage will have completely changed and it will make sense, but for the foreseeable future it's a non-starter.
 

Emcee77

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I have to be honest, I just don't understand the marriage equality angle at all here. Those who are against gay marriage often use polygamy as a slippery slope, I just don't see it.

I guess if you think gay marriage destroyed marriage, then you will jump to that conclusion more easily. For me, polygamy is something completely different. Honestly they'd have a better argument with incestual marriages.

The difference between polygamy and marriage is obvious: two. Two people form a marriage. You aren't born a polygamist, you are born straight or gay. So two straight people can get marriage, or two gay people can. It seems pretty simple and I don't really have any doubts that courts would see it that way too.

Thank you. I've been saying this for weeks.
 
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