Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
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    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

IrishinSyria

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I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned, and I only thought about it today. Can a minister, priest or rabbi refuse to perform a marriage ceremony for a gay couple in states where gay marriage is legal without running into the same legal problems a florist, photographer, etc. would for refusing to provide their services?

It depends on the statutory language, but in general they're fine. I keep mentioning Texas's code, but it carves out a specific exception from its general civil rights protections for organizations whose primary purpose is religious.
 

Emcee77

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I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned, and I only thought about it today. Can a minister, priest or rabbi refuse to perform a marriage ceremony for a gay couple in states where gay marriage is legal without running into the same legal problems a florist, photographer, etc. would for refusing to provide their services?

It depends on the statutory language, but in general they're fine. I keep mentioning Texas's code, but it carves out a specific exception from its general civil rights protections for organizations whose primary purpose is religious.

Right, Indiana too added that exception in the amendment. It had to; I'd have a hard time believing that any statute that required a cleric to perform a ceremony that his religion forbids is constitutional.

This is digressing a bit, but to me there is a huge difference between providing a paid service that just happens to be related to a religious ceremony on the same terms you would provide it to anyone in any context, and actually performing or participating in the ceremony.

So, I have very little sympathy for a baker or printer asked to provide a cake or invitations for a gay wedding. No one asks such a vendor to approve or participate in the ceremony; they just have to give over the stuff and say thanks for the business. I'm uncomfortable with this type of discrimination.

I may have some sympathy for a photographer or a florist, depending on the precise facts. These vendors are not just providing goods; they are likely providing a service that requires the exercise of creative, artistic judgment to at least some extent (maybe not the florist; depends how involved she gets in consulting with the wedding participants). The law recognizes, at least in the different context of personal service contracts vs. contracts for the sale of goods, a difference between compelling someone to perform a personal service and compelling someone to sell something. I might import a similar concept into my analysis of a wedding RFRA case, if I were the judge.

I have almost total sympathy for the cleric; compelling him to perform a ceremony that doesn't comport with his religion is just running roughshod over the first amendment.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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I may have some sympathy for a photographer or a florist, depending on the precise facts. These vendors are not just providing goods; they are likely providing a service that requires the exercise of creative, artistic judgment to at least some extent (maybe not the florist; depends how involved she gets in consulting with the wedding participants). The law recognizes, at least in the different context of personal service contracts vs. contracts for the sale of goods, a difference between compelling someone to perform a personal service and compelling someone to sell something. I might import a similar concept into my analysis of a wedding RFRA case, if I were the judge.

It's not clear that creative professionals are going to be allowed even narrow exemptions for Right of Conscience concerns. Compelling speech is Orwellian, except when it's done in the name of tolerance apparently.

I have almost total sympathy for the cleric; compelling him to perform a ceremony that doesn't comport with his religion is just running roughshod over the first amendment.

Whoa. You sympathize with bigots, Emcee? Be careful whom you associate with. We can't allow the First Amendment to hinder the punishment of ThoughtCrime.

Here's an article titled "Bigotry, the Bible and the Lessons of Indiana" from America's newspaper of record:

THE drama in Indiana last week and the larger debate over so-called religious freedom laws in other states portray homosexuality and devout Christianity as forces in fierce collision.

They’re not — at least not in several prominent denominations, which have come to a new understanding of what the Bible does and doesn’t decree, of what people can and cannot divine in regard to God’s will.

And homosexuality and Christianity don’t have to be in conflict in any church anywhere.

That many Christians regard them as incompatible is understandable, an example not so much of hatred’s pull as of tradition’s sway. Beliefs ossified over centuries aren’t easily shaken.

But in the end, the continued view of gays, lesbians and bisexuals as sinners is a decision. It’s a choice. It prioritizes scattered passages of ancient texts over all that has been learned since — as if time had stood still, as if the advances of science and knowledge meant nothing.

It disregards the degree to which all writings reflect the biases and blind spots of their authors, cultures and eras.

It ignores the extent to which interpretation is subjective, debatable.

And it elevates unthinking obeisance above intelligent observance, above the evidence in front of you, because to look honestly at gay, lesbian and bisexual people is to see that we’re the same magnificent riddles as everyone else: no more or less flawed, no more or less dignified.

Most parents of gay children realize this. So do most children of gay parents. It’s a truth less ambiguous than any Scripture, less complicated than any creed.

So our debate about religious freedom should include a conversation about freeing religions and religious people from prejudices that they needn’t cling to and can indeed jettison, much as they’ve jettisoned other aspects of their faith’s history, rightly bowing to the enlightenments of modernity.

“Human understanding of what is sinful has changed over time,” said David Gushee, an evangelical Christian who teaches Christian ethics at Mercer University. He openly challenges his faith’s censure of same-sex relationships, to which he no longer subscribes.

For a very long time, he noted, “Many Christians thought slavery wasn’t sinful, until we finally concluded that it was. People thought contraception was sinful when it began to be developed, and now very few Protestants and not that many Catholics would say that.” They hold an evolved sense of right and wrong, even though, he added, “You could find scriptural support for the idea that all sex should be procreative.”

Christians have also moved far beyond Scripture when it comes to gender roles.

“In the United States, we have abandoned the idea that women are second-class, inferior and subordinate to men, but the Bible clearly teaches that,” said Jimmy Creech, a former United Methodist pastor who was removed from ministry in the church after he performed a same-sex marriage ceremony in 1999. “We have said: That’s a part of the culture and history of the Bible. That is not appropriate for us today.”

And we could say the same about the idea that men and women in loving same-sex relationships are doing something wrong. In fact the United Church of Christ, the Episcopal Church and the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) have said that. So have most American Catholics, in defiance of their church’s teaching.

And it’s a vital message because of something that Indiana demonstrated anew: Religion is going to be the final holdout and most stubborn refuge for homophobia. It will give license to discrimination. It will cause gay and lesbian teenagers in fundamentalist households to agonize needlessly: Am I broken? Am I damned?

“Conservative Christian religion is the last bulwark against full acceptance of L.G.B.T. people,” Gushee said.

Polls back him up. A majority of Americans support marriage equality, including a majority of Catholics and most Jews. But a 2014 survey by the Public Religion Research Institute showed that while 62 percent of white mainline Protestants favor same-sex marriages, only 38 percent of black Protestants, 35 percent of Hispanic Protestants and 28 percent of white evangelical Protestants do.

And as I’ve written before, these evangelical Protestants wield considerable power in the Republican primaries, thus speaking in a loud voice on the political stage. It’s no accident that none of the most prominent Republicans believed to be contending for the presidency favor same-sex marriage and that none of them joined the broad chorus of outrage over Indiana’s discriminatory religious freedom law. They had the Iowa caucuses and the South Carolina primary to worry about.

Could this change? There’s a rapidly growing body of impressive, persuasive literature that looks at the very traditions and texts that inform many Christians’ denunciation of same-sex relationships and demonstrates how easily those points of reference can be understood in a different way.

Gushee’s take on the topic, “Changing Our Mind,” was published late last year. It joined Jeff Chu’s “Does Jesus Really Love Me?” published in 2013, and “Bible, Gender, Sexuality: Reframing the Church’s Debate on Same-Sex Relationships,” by James Brownson, which was published in 2013.

Then there’s the 2014 book “God and the Gay Christian,” by Matthew Vines, who has garnered significant attention and drawn large audiences for his eloquent take on what the New Testament — which is what evangelicals draw on and point to — really communicates.

Evaluating its sparse invocations of homosexuality, he notes that there wasn’t any awareness back then that same-sex attraction could be a fundamental part of a person’s identity, or that same-sex intimacy could be an expression of love within the context of a nurturing relationship.

“It was understood as a kind of excess, like drunkenness, that a person might engage in if they lost all control, not as a unique identity,” Vines told me, adding that Paul’s rejection of same-sex relations in Romans I was “akin to his rejection of drunkenness or his rejection of gluttony.”

And Vines said that the New Testament, like the Old Testament, outlines bad and good behaviors that almost everyone deems archaic and irrelevant today. Why deem the descriptions of homosexual behavior any differently?

Creech and Mitchell Gold, a prominent furniture maker and gay philanthropist, founded an advocacy group, Faith in America, which aims to mitigate the damage done to L.G.B.T. people by what it calls “religion-based bigotry.”

Gold told me that church leaders must be made “to take homosexuality off the sin list.”

His commandment is worthy — and warranted. All of us, no matter our religious traditions, should know better than to tell gay people that they’re an offense. And that’s precisely what the florists and bakers who want to turn them away are saying to them.

Did you catch that? "Conservative Christian religion is the last bulwark against full acceptance of LGBT people", so their "church leaders must be made 'to take homosexuality off the sin list.'" Things could get uncomfortable for your wife if she's on the wrong side of this Kulturkampf.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Can't wait until the activists "progress" to the point where this discussion is applied to the First Amendment. You have the freedom of speech, yes, but you cannot offend "xyz group."

See: The United Kingdom.
 
B

Buster Bluth

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It's not clear that creative professionals are going to be allowed even narrow exemptions for Right of Conscience concerns. Compelling speech is Orwellian, except when it's done in the name of tolerance apparently.

Whoa. You sympathize with bigots, Emcee? Be careful whom you associate with. We can't allow the First Amendment to hinder the punishment of ThoughtCrime.

Here's an article titled "Bigotry, the Bible and the Lessons of Indiana" from America's newspaper of record:

Did you catch that? "Conservative Christian religion is the last bulwark against full acceptance of LGBT people", so their "church leaders must be made 'to take homosexuality off the sin list.'" Things could get uncomfortable for your wife if she's on the wrong side of this Kulturkampf.

To be fair, the "be made" wasn't in the quote of what the interviewee said. So it could have been said in a better context, ie that churches simply need to calm down about gays as they have about other topics, and not necessarily implying some draconian government intervention.

I'm of the opinion that churches will change for the same reason the GOP will change on immigration: they'll adapt to the people who make up the country/congregation. Last I checked, there aren't any churches in the South saying slavery is an appropriate Christian practice like they were 150 years ago. As acceptance of gay marriage moves from 50%+, to 60%+, to 70%+, etc, churches will change like they always have.

Generally I think it's unfortunate that plenty of Christians are using anti-gay stances as a rallying position for a religion built on the teachings of a guy who spent a decent chunk of his time on Earth going around showing love and compassion to different factions of society that were ostracized by its ignorant masses.
 

Whiskeyjack

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To be fair, the "be made" wasn't in the quote of what the interviewee said. So it could have been said in a better context, ie that churches simply need to calm down about gays as they have about other topics, and not necessarily implying some draconian government intervention.

Attributing that phrasing to Bruni makes it worse, because he's a columnist for the most influential (and closely edited) periodical in our country. The fact that the NYT is comfortable making such statements is chilling.

I'm of the opinion that churches will change for the same reason the GOP will change on immigration: they'll adapt to the people who make up the country/congregation. Last I checked, there aren't any churches in the South saying slavery is an appropriate Christian practice like they were 150 years ago. As acceptance of gay marriage moves from 50%+, to 60%+, to 70%+, etc, churches will change like they always have.

That's what Protestants do. Fortunately the Catholic Church doesn't put eternal Truth up for a vote whenever the zeitgeist changes. Though it's telling that Bruni thinks a poll of American Catholics somehow matters here. Note that the Church has at many times throughout its 2,000-year history been under much more intense political pressure to compromise its doctrines on sex and marriage (the English Reformation, for one), and yet it has never caved. In my eyes, that consistency is strong circumstantial evidence that the Church really is protected from teaching error by the Holy Spirit.

Generally I think it's unfortunate that plenty of Christians are using anti-gay stances as a rallying position for a religion built on the teachings of a guy who spent a decent chunk of his time on Earth going around showing love and compassion to different factions of society that were ostracized by its ignorant masses.

I agree it's unfortunate that many Christians are choosing to define themselves against the LGBT community, because Jesus certainly didn't operate that way. But He said, "Go and sin no more," not "Do whatever feels right," or "Sexual autonomy is a basic human right!"

It's frustrating that Progressives like Bruni point to the liberal theological accommodations that the Mainline Protestant denominations made over the last few decades without also noting that those churches have all but collapsed, and will be effectively extinct in this country within a generation. Suggesting that orthodox Christians follow their example is an invitation to suicide.

It's also frustrating that most Progressives make no effort to understand why orthodox Christians oppose inherently sterile sexual acts. There's a vast and coherent intellectual history behind it that equitably condemns contraception and no-fault divorce just as vigorously as masturbation and homosexual acts. But when one side in this debate insists on defining themselves precisely by those acts, essentially building their collective identity around it, any opportunity for productive discourse is foreclosed. Because the ancient Christian doctrines on sex and marriage are thereby rendered "discriminatory" (and therefore fair game for government coercion), while the Roman Church is literally unable to change it without shredding the Bible and destroying its own authority.

Perhaps it's inevitable that a growing % of American Catholics will come to reject to Church's core doctrines on sex and marriage. But they'll eventually become Protestants (or "Nones"), and the Church will remain unchanged (though increasingly hounded out of the public square).
 

IrishLax

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<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/2bqEn8AXzJ4?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

connor_in

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On the video ... Hilarious!

On the surprisingly tame comments ... Only so much hate to go around and that hate s transitioning to Hillary.

The first two politicians ever to get hate from the governed

shocked.gif
 

wizards8507

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Ted Cruz needs to get out of the race and endorse Rand Paul before it's too late. Going in with the anti-establishment grassroots of the GOP split against a unified establishment wing will spell disaster for the party and the country.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.
 

IrishJayhawk

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Yep...those two families have done such a bangup job over the past 20+ years we need to keep the party going.

Nauseating. Jeb Bush should have a D behind his name.

Jeb Bush is a very typical Reagan republican. The right has moved so far to the right that you don't even remember what center is anymore. Guys like George HW Bush and Bob Dole would be called RINOs in this crazy republican atmosphere.
 

wizards8507

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Jeb Bush is a very typical Reagan republican. The right has moved so far to the right that you don't even remember what center is anymore. Guys like George HW Bush and Bob Dole would be called RINOs in this crazy republican atmosphere.
You can't view the modern Republican party in the typical right-left spectrum any more. The divide is between the libertarian types and the big government types. What you're describing is the religious right of Santorum/Huckabee or the "cowboy conservatives" like Cheney and Perry. But the guys with actual traction as national candidates fall out of the spectrum entirely. When Rand Paul did his "Stand with Rand" speech against drone strikes on American citizens overseas, he was actually taking a position to the left of Barack Obama and against the will of much of his party. Yet he's labeled too extreme to be a viable national candidate.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.
 
B

Buster Bluth

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You can't view the modern Republican party in the typical right-left spectrum any more. The divide is between the libertarian types and the big government types.

This strikes me as the narrative created solely by libertarians.

I don't think guys like Jon Huntsman, Jr. or John Kasich are the big government types, yet they'd have no shot at a GOP nomination because the primaries are too heavily influence by social views.
 

connor_in

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Don't know if we should use this or the horserace thread, but since this started as an election thread, I will put it here...

Do Democrats REALLY want HRC as the President of the United States?

(If you want, you can also answer whether you think she can be a president for "everyday americans" as she states in her video.)
 

RDU Irish

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This strikes me as the narrative created solely by libertarians.

I don't think guys like Jon Huntsman, Jr. or John Kasich are the big government types, yet they'd have no shot at a GOP nomination because the primaries are too heavily influence by social views.

If there were a viable Libertarian third party you would have folks like Huntsman, Paul(s), Johnson (WI), and many others that would probably be carrying that flag instead of an R. Given the dynamics of the two party system, you are forced to carry one banner or the other if you want to have a snowball's chance in hell of 1) being elected, 2) being effective in DC. Ron Paul is probably the best example.
 
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