Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

Polish Leppy 22

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I have no fears of anything resembling ISIS coming to town, but I do think we should straight up butcher them over there right now.

You and I both. However, after reading two books by Michael Scheuer (CIA Bin Laden Unit Head for 3 years in the 90's), we have only ourselves to blame if we ignore the threats again.

Bin Laden and his boys gave us several public warnings, issued his fatwa, praised attacks against the US all over the world, etc and we shrugged it off.

Do I think an ISIS march will take place next year in DC? Nah, but I do believe they're 100% serious in their intent when they claim they will fly their flag on top of the White House.
 

Emcee77

latress on the men-jay
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Wow. Didn't see that one coming. Michael Eric Dyson is a bright guy and highly respected (myself included), although I often disagree with him.

Michael Eric Dyson: Obama "Failed Us Not Only As Black People But He Failed The Nation" | Video | RealClearPolitics

Yeah, I think there are a lot of black intellectuals saying stuff like this. I heard this on the radio yesterday:

[Obama's] studied even-handedness disappoints some African-American observers. Paul Butler, who studies race and criminal justice at Georgetown Law school, wants to hear more outrage from the president about the conduct of a nearly all-white police force in a town that's two-thirds black.

"With the specter of urban insurrection in an American city that looks more like Fallujah than Ferguson, this is not the time to be detached," he says.

Others, however, defended Obama's cautious approach. Joshua Dubois, who used to head the White House Office of Faith-based and Neighborhood Partnerships, says now that the Justice Department is investigating the Ferguson shooting, it's important that the president not appear to be putting his thumb on the scale.

"There are a lot of folks who want President Obama to be all sorts of things: an activist, a marcher, a poet, a race theorist. But in this case, I need him to be the president," Dubois says. "I need him to make sure that this investigation is carried out in a full and fair way, and that that family and that community in Ferguson has closure in terms of the way the criminal justice system operates."

With Ferguson, Obama Forced To Confront Race Yet Again : NPR


I get that Obama's presidency has disappointed a lot of people of color, but he has a responsibility to be president of the entire country, not just a leader of black people and other racial minorities, and I appreciate that he treats that former responsibility as paramount.
 
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B

Buster Bluth

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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/X8uoE0n14iU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Just unreal.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
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wizards has begun posting about politics again, and he's still active in the Rumored Violations thread.

Vi8JI.gif
 

Rack Em

Community Bod
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Excellent, but I was offended that you didn't warn me what it was about!

That's rather microaggressive of you, don't you think? Check your privilege at the door and try not to offend me by being offended by my posts. K thanks.
 

ginman

shut your pie hole leppy
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That's rather microaggressive of you, don't you think? Check your privilege at the door and try not to offend me by being offended by my posts. K thanks.

I think its better if you just treat me more nicely.........I'm sensitive you know...sigh
 

phgreek

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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/X8uoE0n14iU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Just unreal.

which part.

I'm not of a mind to preach...never have been. If thats the part that is your issue...ok.

But from a practical perspective instead of convert them or kill them...
I'd say knock it off or die...

How radical Islam comes to terms with the "knock it off" part...who the hell knows, but I suspect it has alot to do with reconciling their perversion of Muhammad with true intent, OR changing the true intent to something we (world community) accept...call it a conversion or an awakening...but it is ultimately their choice to knock it off or die.

In that sense I got no problem with what he said....I just wouldn't turn it into a convert or die contest...My view is practice an acceptable form of faith, and don't threaten me for practicing mine...or die.
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
which part.

I'm not of a mind to preach...never have been. If thats the part that is your issue...ok.

But from a practical perspective instead of convert them or kill them...
I'd say knock it off or die...

How radical Islam comes to terms with the "knock it off" part...who the hell knows, but I suspect it has alot to do with reconciling their perversion of Muhammad with true intent, OR changing the true intent to something we (world community) accept...call it a conversion or an awakening...but it is ultimately their choice to knock it off or die.

In that sense I got no problem with what he said....I just wouldn't turn it into a convert or die contest...My view is practice an acceptable form of faith, and don't threaten me for practicing mine...or die.
Conversely what part of Christianity reflects the axiom... "knock it off or we will kill you?" Is that not a perversion of Christianity? Who is correct in deciding who is justified in doing what each other is claiming if they are compelled by their religion?

The problem is that Phil, and apparently you, like him, cannot understand that this opinion is just as fundamentalist as what is being argued against. Its actually the same thing.
 

BGIF

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Conversely what part of Christianity reflects the axiom... "knock it off or we will kill you?" Is that not a perversion of Christianity? Who is correct in deciding who is justified in doing what each other is claiming if they are compelled by their religion?

The problem is that Phil, and apparently you, like him, cannot understand that this opinion is just as fundamentalist as what is being argued against. Its actually the same thing.


Kill them all. The Lord will recognize His own.
The Albagensian Crusade. 1272

Religious killing goes back through antiquity. The Romans persecuted the Christians until the 4th Century and Constantine. Constantine's son and successor passed anti-pagan laws. Pagans were persecuted in The East and The West.

The Jews were extolled for most of 2000 years in Christianity as Christ Killers and that was the basis for pograms an Holocausts ( the word was first used in Richard the Lion-Heart's reign.


If any one of the race of the Saxons hereafter concealed among them shall have wished to hide himself unbaptized, and shall have scorned to come to baptism and shall have wished to remain a pagan, let him be punished by death.
Charlemagne's Capitulatio de partibus Saxoniae 782

Followed up by the Massacre at Verdun later that year making the point.

The Aragonese Crusade

The Great Crusades to the Holy Land

The Northern Crusades

Reconquista

Henry VIII and Thomas More burning heretic.

Henry VIII dispatching More and others to martyrdom.

St. Bartholomew's Massacre 1572

The Inquisition

The Conquistadors

Cromwell

Irish Penal Laws

Etc, etc, etc
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
The Albagensian Crusade. 1272

Religious killing goes back through antiquity. The Romans persecuted the Christians until the 4th Century and Constantine. Constantine's son and successor passed anti-pagan laws. Pagans were persecuted in The East and The West.

The Jews were extolled for most of 2000 years in Christianity as Christ Killers and that was the basis for pograms an Holocausts ( the word was first used in Richard the Lion-Heart's reign.



Charlemagne's Capitulatio de partibus Saxoniae 782

Followed up by the Massacre at Verdun later that year making the point.

The Aragonese Crusade

The Great Crusades to the Holy Land

The Northern Crusades

Reconquista

Henry VIII and Thomas More burning heretic.

Henry VIII dispatching More and others to martyrdom.

St. Bartholomew's Massacre 1572

The Inquisition

The Conquistadors

Cromwell

Irish Penal Laws

Etc, etc, etc
Yeah. I was going to get to all of these.
 

dshans

They call me The Dribbler
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... Etc, etc, etc

Damn right!

Is this the time to mention Manifest Destiny? Ostensibly a political construct (as religion tends to evince itself) with a heavy dose of "Better Than Thou, Kneel in Subjugation, Heathens – or Die" attitude.

Ahhh, The Glory of (whatever) God!

Mammon Über Alle!
 
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connor_in

Oh Yeeaah!!!
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Damn right!

Is this the time to mention Manifest Destiny? Ostensibly a political construct (as religion tends to evince itself) with a heavy dose of "Better Than Thou, Kneel in Subjugation, Heathens – or Die" attitude.

Ahhh, The Glory of (whatever) God!

Mammon Über Alle!

Steve Rogers: You know, the last time I was in Germany and saw a man standing above everybody else, we ended up disagreeing.
 

wizards8507

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Since this is the politics thread I figured I'd put this in here:

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/scottish-...-as--no--vote-triumphs-043827993.html#4pKWT5l

Two things:
Everyone's thoughts on the outcome?
The fact that Scotland had a turnout rate of over 80%!
I'm not thrilled that what the Scottish Nationalist Party was going for is kind of a socialist utopia, but it also shocks me that an entire nation of people would voluntarily submit themselves to a monarchy in the year 2014.

Ygritte said:
You think we're savages because we don't live in stone castles. We can't make steel as good as yours, it's true, but we're free. lf someone tried to tell us we couldn't lie down as man and woman, we'd shove a spear up his arse. We don't go serving some shit king who's only king because his father was. We CHOSE Mance Rayder to lead us. He was a crow, same as you, but he wanted to be free. You could be free, too. You don't need to live your whole life taking commands from old men. Wake up when you want to wake up. l could show you the streams to fish, the woods to hunt. Build yourself a cabin and find a woman to lie with in the night. You're a pretty lad. The girls would claw each other's eyes out to get naked with you. Walk. l could teach you how to do it. l know how to do it.

You know nothing, Jon Snow.
 
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Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
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Religious killing goes back through antiquity.

You might be interested in a book called "The Myth of Religious Violence: Secular Ideology and the Roots of Modern Conflict." The author, William Cavanaugh, currently teaches at DePaul, but he's an ND alum and has deep ties to the University. Here's a review from Bleeding Heart Libertarians (which is a great blog in its own right):

Calm down. You might like this post.

I’ve just finishing reading William Cavanaugh’s very bold and challenging new book, The Myth of Religious Violence. For Cavanaugh, the myth of religious violence, roughly, is “the idea that religion has a dangerous tendency to promote violence.” Against this claim, Cavauangh makes three core claims:

  1. There is no transhistorical and transcultural essence of religion. What counts as religious or secular in any given context is a function of political configurations of power.
  2. Such a transhistorical and transcultural concept of religion as non-rational and prone to violence is one of the foundational legitimating myths of Western society.
  3. This myth can be and is used to legitimate neo-colonial violence against non-Western others, particularly the Muslim world.

I think Cavanaugh’s arguments should be of great interest to libertarians, but let me explain the view first before I say why.

First, Cavanaugh does not deny that religious motives often lead to violence. Instead, again, he denies that there is any adequate social scientific definition of religion that is sufficiently transhistorical and universal to sustain the thesis that religion is somehow a unique cause of violence. Many of you will find this point at least a bit familiar from libertarian debates about whether Marxism is a religion (or Objectivism for that matter). The question is whether we even have a family resemblance notion of religion that includes Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Confucianism, Daoism, Hinduism, Shintoism and various ancestral religions which also excludes political ideologies like secular nationalism.

Cavanaugh analyzes – at great length – several attempts to defend the myth of religious violence and carefully deconstructs the definitions of religion at work in each case. For a historian, Cavanaugh is an exceptional logic-chopper. While reading the book, I often found myself forgetting that I wasn’t reading analytic philosophy.

Importantly, Cavanaugh is a theologically orthodox Roman Catholic and somewhat sympathetic to Catholic strains of socialist anarchism, like Dorothy Day. (See his talk criticizing Milton Friedman and defending that old an-soc saw, Mondragon). So his perspective as a critic of the modern liberal state is one that I suspect even very secular libertarians, who might otherwise believe the myth of religious violence, can at least appreciate.

The second chapter of the book argues that the very concept of “religion” as a generic category was a social and political invention that historically served to separate the stuff that power elites liked from stuff they didn’t like. The “secular” became the universal, the rational, the peaceful and, critically, the power and violence justifying. The “religious” became the private, the irrational, the dangerous and, critically, the stuff that could never justify power and violence.

Perhaps the most interesting chapter is Chapter 3, which argues that the “wars of religion” were not about religion as distinct phenomena in the West from politics, economics and other social domains. The Thirty Years War was about a great many things, for instance, and concluded with battles between Catholic France and Catholic Hapsburgs.

What the myth of religious violence does, Cavanaugh claims, is sanctify and justify the violence endemic and characteristic of the liberal democratic nation-state. Liberals since Locke have presented the liberal state as a solution to violent religious conflict. But Cavanaugh argues that the liberal state was not the early modern solution to religious wars. Instead, power grabs by monarchist absolutists were a critical cause of the “wars of religion.”

Cavanaugh argues that a review of historical scholarship of wars in 16th century Europe shows that many violent conflicts were caused by the project of European state building by attempting to collect taxes from an unwilling populace. He claims, interestingly, that this view has gained general acceptance among historians of the period. I like this line: “the rise of the state was one of the principal causes of the wars. The so-called wars of religion were the birth pangs of the state, not simply the crisis which required the state to step in as savior.”

So, the myth of religious violence serves to obscure that fact and incline us to relax in the presence of a dangerous concentration of power, namely the liberal state and the secular nationalism that socially sustains it.

Perhaps most importantly for present-day politics, the myth of religious violence is used to justify American imperialism in Muslim nations. Cavanaugh reviews works by Sam Harris, Chris Hitchens, Paul Berman and Andrew Sullivan, who claim that the Muslim obsession with irrational theocracy is a reason they cannot be reasoned with, but must be the subject of rational, modest liberal military violence. The myth of religious violence is thus used to justify military violence by distracting us from the dangerous violence of the liberal state and convincing us, tacitly, that Muslims in Iran, Iraq, etc. could have no rational grievance with the US government. As Cavanaugh writes:

Their violence—being tainted by religion—is uncontrolled, absolutist, fanatical, irrational, and divisive. Our violence—being secular—is controlled, modest, rational, beneficial, peace-making, and sometimes regrettably necessary to contain their violence.

Consider a line from Sam Harris’s The End of Faith about Muslims:

Certain beliefs place their adherents beyond the reach of every peaceful means of persuasion, while inspiring them to commit acts of extraordinary violence against others. There is, in fact, no talking to some people. If they cannot be captured, and they often cannot; otherwise tolerant people may be justified in killing them in self-defense.

Or Hitchens’s attitude towards Muslim terrorists:

We can’t live on the same planet as them, and I’m glad because I don’t want to. I don’t want to breathe the same air as these psychopaths and murders [sic] and rapists and torturers and child abusers. It’s them or me. I’m very happy about this because I know it will be them. It’s a duty and a responsibility to defeat them. But it’s also a pleasure. I don’t regard it as a grim task at all.

Note the role of the myth of religious violence here: it makes Muslims an incomprehensible alien species that cannot only be handled with the power of the liberal state. Their violence is irrational. It has no rational source. Were the violence to come from non-religious actors, Hitchens would almost certainly have given a more sober analysis. Instead, he said the following: “Cluster bombs are perhaps not good in themselves, but when they are dropped on identifiable concentrations of Taliban troops, they do have a heartening effect.” In God is Not Great, Hitchens repeatedly blames religion for violence – religion kills – but as Cavanaugh says, “The problem with religion is that it kills for the wrong reasons. Killing for the right reasons can be not only justifiable but pleasing.”

Cavanaugh’s conclusion is this:

The myth of religious violence should finally be seen for what it is: an important part of the folklore of Western societies. It does not identify any facts about the world, but rather authorizes certain arrangements of power in the modern West. It is a story of salvation from mortal peril by the creation of the secular nation-state.

What are the advantages of abandoning the myth? Several: (1) it would free valuable empirical work on the nature of violence and its connection to ideological systems from bad scientific categories, (2) it would help us see that “Western-style secularism is a contingent and local set of social arrangements and not the universal solution to the universal problem of religion.” (3) It would rid the West of “one significant obstacle to understanding the non-Western, especially Muslim, world.” (4) It would “help to eliminate one of the justifications for military action against religious actors.” And finally: (5) It would aid in ridding Americans of ‘one of the principal obstacles to having any serious public dialogue over the causes of opposition to U.S. policies abroad.”

I figure libertarians will like (2), (4) and (5). So I recommend engaging Cavanaugh’s work.

The book will cause cognitive dissonance for secular libertarians. You typically want to both demystify the liberal state and adopt the myth of religious violence. Cavanaugh isn’t saying you can’t do both. However, given that many secular libertarians believe the myth of religious violence, Cavanaugh’s work will challenge you to revise this belief. While you may want to resist, at least becoming aware of a significant challenge to the myth of religious violence will help you see past one more rationale for irresponsible state power.

If you don’t have time to read the book, go here to see Cavanaugh talk about them.
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
Great read Whiskeyjack. Although I love Hitchen's wit and writing his effusive antitheism is tough to defend. I posted an article by Sam Harris in the Israel/Palestine thread which fits in nicely with the narrative above. I won't quote any book author but will add my additional commentary through the following:
"Right In Two"-Tool

Angels on the sideline,
Puzzled and amused.
Why did Father give these humans free will?
Now they're all confused.

Don't these talking monkeys know that
Eden has enough to go around?
Plenty in this holy garden, silly monkeys,
Where there's one you're bound to divide it.
Right in two.

Angels on the sideline,
Baffled and confused.
Father blessed them all with reason.
And this is what they choose.
And this is what they choose...

Monkey killing monkey killing monkey
Over pieces of the ground.
Silly monkeys give them thumbs,
They forge a blade,
And where there's one
they're bound to divide it,
Right in two.
Right in two.

Monkey killing monkey killing monkey.
Over pieces of the ground.
Silly monkeys give them thumbs.
They make a club.
And beat their brother, down.
How they survive so misguided is a mystery.

Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven conscious of his fleeting time here.

Cut and divide it all right in two

Fight over the clouds, over wind, over sky
Fight over life, over blood, over prayer,
overhead and light
Fight over love, over sun,
over another, Fight for each other,
for the ones who are rising.

Angels on the sideline again.
Benched along with patience and reason.
Angels on the sideline again
Wondering when this tug of war will end.

"The fault, Dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves"
 
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