Politics

[NDinFL]

Sincerely, how many months have you spent out of the state of Ohio, buster?

 

[jason_h537]

Is a bad educational system not going to produce students with inferior educations? Private schools outshine public schools in nearly every instance. This educational system is not about actually educating children. Do you deny that our public school system is a disaster? You'd have to live on the moon to not notice that. The government runs the system, why does the government not incur the blame? We live in an age where public school unions are actually suing to stop voucher programs that gives the "disadvantaged" kids the statistically-proven best chance for success. It's akin to a plantation getting the state to return runaway slaves. Gotta make that cash, homie--keep em in da district.

Secondly, for cops and firefighters....don't be fcking oblivious. Of course the government has a role. That doesn't mean we overpay overweight policeman to jack it for 30 years on their way to too costly pension. But the government has a role, no one is saying they don't and when you do to that argument you look like an idiot every time. You look like you don't have a real response. "Oh so now we're gunna live in a world where there isn't government!!" No. For the record, in the rare comparison of private police authority vs public police authority, the private enterprise demolishes the public ones. That would be airline screeners. The only airport in the country that has a private service has the best safety and performance record in the country.

Please do not lecture me on how schools are financed. I am knowledgeable on the subject. But you are mistaken if you think those other schools are good schools, or something resembling an efficient system. They aren't. And you're being ignorant to the fact that suburban schools and urban schools are two totally different beats, property values are one of many difference. Still though, when an inner city child is placed in a private school he outperforms his peers (exponentially as the grade increases). We don't allow choice. We don't allow the money to follow the child. We don't allow competition. Regulated competition, the cornerstone of capitalism and the free market, has crushed the price equilibrium of nearly every good and service since its inception. It has continually produced a better product.....but we don't see it in schools. We don't see it (as much) in health care. We don't see it where competition is replaced by programs.

Yes public schools are struggling because of constant cuts to their funding. Less teachers, out of date text books, poor facilities, the list goes on and on. Your answer is to cut even more from private schools for vouchers. Vouchers that do not cover the entire tuition to private schools, and private schools can deny any student they want. What does that mean. Poor underprivileged children who have received a poor education will be rejected from private schools. Then the public schools will be cut even more to pay for vouchers which is still a government program.

Private schools are great, I would love to be able to send my kid to a private school. Unfortunately the average American family can not afford that. No **** that kids in private schools outperfrom non private school kids, they can afford to do so. Now how do you expect the average American family to send their kids to private schools? Vouchers? They should pay for it themselves? So instead of government money goping to improve public schools, we should spernd it on paying private schools that do not have to open their doors to anyone they do not want. Great solution.

Right cops and firefighters are different. They are different because you understand the benefits. So you scapegoat Unions for the problems in both. Listen Unions are a problem, they are not the only problem. Unions created the 40 hour work week, minimum wage, paid holidays, overtime, child labor laws, the list goes on and on. Unions are there to fight for the rights of workers. Believe it or not workers have to fight for their rights. Yes, several unions have gone to far, but so have corporations, why don't you talk about that ever?

I am glad you understand how schools work but ignore how the United States created the blueprint for how public education works and ignore the years of cuts by the party you support. Then blame schools for trying to function without funding. Your answer privatization. There is no way that can go wrong, or create a greater disparity between those that have and have not.

A decent politician can come up with a program that gets the government to tackle a problem, a great politician develops a policy that gets the free market to solve he problem.

Wow, thats deep, name the last great politician based on this line you keep using?

I quite literally talked to them. But you present an untrue choice for them. They are choosing a welfare check (a large one) over working at Wendy's, because they were never given a real education. I don't really blame them so much. As much as I clamor away at irresponsibility, it's really just a lack of education. I've known people in these situation who have woken up and desired a real path to success, and I'm calling that responsibility, and I'm calling for more of it in this so-called society.

So you volunteered at a school once and talked to some stupid kids and now you know the truth. Have you ever seen a welfare check? How much do you think they get? What responsibility have you ever taken in your life. Honestly, how hard have you ever worked in your life? Have you ever wanted for anything? Have you ever sacrificed to pay a bill? Have you ever went to bed hungry? You make huge assumptions based on one experience in your life as far as I can tell.

Mitt Romney is a self-made man as much as the majority of Americans are. He was born with a great set of cards, and he took that and made the most of it. His primary social activity at Harvard was to organize weekend study sessions so people could get straights A's. When you graduate in the top 5% of your class, simultaneously, in both Harvard Law with a JD and Harvard Business with an MBA....I can't not call you a self-made man.

Guys like George Bush spent their time at Yale doing cocaine. He is not a self-made man.

So what you are telling me is that two men born privileged, both white, both wealthy, both were dealt a great set of cards, both received ivy league educations, and both made it to a point in life that they could become president. But one was a self made man and the other isn't. That says to me that regardless of what either man did with their life, they are going to be successful. How is that different from the point I was making?

The greatest determination of success in the United States is the class you were born in. That flies in the face of the responsibility/hard work rhetoric you have been spitting out. Or maybe it is just a lazy gene that we have yet to discover

Well you should probably be aware that the US Army pays for my school because my father fought and died for this country and his benefits were transferred to me.

I do go to a state school. Where have you heard me say that states should provide an education? And let's not pretend like I go to an efficient school. I am almost entirely unhappy these days with Ohio State's management of my major. And yet, with universities being primarily public sector endeavor, only 15 of the top 50 American universities are public ones. Hmmm. 70% of the upper echelon universities are private ones. Capitalism has crushed price equilibriums everywhere, and higher education will be no exception. It is already very obviously happening, and it will hit critical mass when the bubble bursts--we can teach the rudimentary classes via computer programs. There has been great progress on this front (in the incentivized private sector) and one day it will overtake the whole thing. People doubted capitalism and technology before, they will doubt this too.

So you are getting a free ride off of the government. Your dad put in the work and you are reaping the benefits. That is what I heard. How is what you are doing not a government handout? Is it because your father died? Is it because you benefit from it?

Why did you go to a state school? Did you not work hard enough to get into a private school? Could you not afford a private school? Is the government money you receive not enough? Perhaps had you taken greater responsibility over your actions you wouldn't have to deal with Ohio State's management of your major. Or maybe, you were given an opportunity. One that many people depend on to get a good education.

Well don't try to put me in some imaginary corner in which all government action is inherently evil. That is fcking stupid, and sadly enough too often the comeback you people try to present.

Maternity leave is the best example you can come up with? That's pretty weak. And again, it's not so much the program, as it is the level of government instituting the program. The higher the level, the bigger the bureaucracy, the less efficiency, the more failure.

That is stupid but you put yourself in that position. You come here talking about "you people" depend on the government, lack responsibility, free market has all the answers. It is stupid to think that the government doesn't have a role. Yes, perhaps maternity leave is weak. How about the government program that pays for the education of its slain soldiers? Is that a bad program? Is that government waste?

A classic Statist move: look at statistics from the most broad angle, or one that fits my predetermined belief.

Is it possible that this comes from other factors? Let's see where they live, and who they are. Are they simply "white, christian, classic GOP" voters being hypocrites?!? HAHAHA I BET IT IS!!! ......

Did you know that prisons use the academic scores of 4th grade black males to determine if they should start planning for prison room expansion? Really. It's horrible, but true. What if he said the same about poverty in blacks and where they might reside...surely, it won't pop up in those states, it has to be the hypocritical white christian GOPers....

Well wait a minute. That doesn't explain Texas.... What about just the overall location of poor people?

Looks like Native Americans, Hispanic-Americans, and African-Americans too me. How did they vote by county though?

OMGZZZZZZZ IT MATCHES!!!!! (In the original red states)

*Florida is easily explained: that's American retirement home.

And this proves what? That Black, Latinos, and Native Americans are moochers? That the south has a disproportionate number of people in poverty? What is the point? All I see is red states predominately do not pay taxes and yet are going to vote Romney. The midwest, west, and northeast tend to pay taxes in higher numbers and are voting Obama.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Maybe so, but I lived in Poland for four years and they had nearly 20% unemployment in their country of 40 million people...and yet they were able to pay for improvements on their roads while I was there. They had better public transportation than we do overall, even with the dilapidated conditions of most of their buses and trains, not to mention horrible weather most of the year, as well.

There are ways to do it, if people would actually look for solutions that are beneficial to both sides. Instead, our entire country's government seems to be more concerned about pandering their party and not helping the actual voters, for whom they work for.

I dislike the entire political process, and I am not sure I want to vote in this election, to be honest, because I don't think either man is right for the job.

Doesn't the unemployment number let you know thatsomething is wrong?

 

[woolybug25]

haha, I opened this thread off of a month haitus of doing so after reading today's front page on Romney's 47% gaffe. I opened it simply to see if Buster was flipping his $hit in here.

Sure enough... lol

 

[Bogtrotter07]

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Rls8H6MktrA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Wow, it is so cool to see a blast from the past. Milton Friedman; that video was probably from when I was a young man! Heck, he has been gone for the better part of a decade! (2006) Did you see the cool styles shirt, jeans, and hair worn by the student. Did you see that the student actually had a book, not a portable electronic device in his hand?

As to Milton Friedman, he is wrong on a simple fact in his premise. The greatest accumulation of wealth for the average man came not at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century, it came from the depth of the great depression through the Second World War to the post war boom. Every other point he makes fails. I read Free to Choose before most posters on this board were born. He ignored some facts and quite a bit of human nature then, and his mantra has not improved with age. In one regard he was Ayn Rand before Ayn Rand was Ayn Rand. Political operators picked and chose from his massive volume of work, and used what they wanted, ignoring the rest. When looked at through his entire body of work, that miffed old man, who's face twisted ever so slightly, was a more accurate depiction, than the kindly old man selling personal responsibility. If he were right the paranoid schitzoprenic that I used to help out by delivering meals needs to take more responsibility for his life.

When my father was a young man he walked back and forth from the trolly line to high school, at the old St. Johns High School every day. He never belonged to a union, but he never forgot this:

The Toledo Auto-Lite strike was a strike by a federal labor union of the American Federation of Labor (AFL) against the Electric Auto-Lite company of Toledo, Ohio, from April 12 to June 3, 1934.

The strike is notable for a five-day running battle between roughly 6,000 strikers and 1,300 members of the Ohio National Guard. Known as the "Battle of Toledo," the clash left two strikers dead and more than 200 injured.[1][2] The strike is regarded by many labor historians as one of the three most important strikes in U.S. history

The city of Toledo was financially devastated by the Great Depression. The Willys-Overland automobile company, the city's largest employer, declared bankruptcy. The Ohio Bond and Security Bank, the city's largest bank, collapsed, along with most of the city's banks and savings and loan associations. Near bankruptcy, the city of Toledo laid off hundreds of workers, including 150 police. Unemployment in the city reached 70 percent.

The "Battle of Toledo"

On the afternoon of Wednesday, May 23, the sheriff of Lucas County decided to take action against the picketers. In front of a crowd which now numbered nearly 10,000, sheriff's deputies arrested Budenz and four picketers. As the five were taken to jail, a deputy began beating an elderly man.[1][10][17][18]

Infuriated, the crowd began hurling stones, bricks and bottles at the sheriff's deputies. A fire hose was turned on the crowd, but the mob seized it and turned the hose back on the deputies. Many deputies fled inside the plant gates, and Auto-Lite managers barricaded the plant doors and turned off the lights. The deputies gathered on the roof and began shooting tear gas bombs into the crowd. So much tear and vomit gas was used that not even the police could enter the riot zone. The mob retaliated by hurling bricks and stones through the plant's windows for seven hours. The strikers overturned cars in the parking lot and set them ablaze. The inner tubes of car tires were turned into improvised slingshots, and bricks and stones launched at the building. Burning refuse was thrown into the open door of the plant's shipping department, setting it on fire. In the early evening, the rioters attempted to break into the plant and seize the replacement workers, security personnel and sheriff's deputies. Police fired shots at the legs of rioters to try to stop them. The gunfire was ineffective, and only one person was (slightly) wounded. Hand-to-hand fighting broke out as the rioters broke into the plant. The mob was repelled, but tried twice more to break into the facility before they gave up late in the evening. More than 20 people were reported injured during the melee. Auto-Lite president Clement O. Miniger was so alarmed by the violence that he ringed his home with a cordon of armed guards.[1][10][19][20][21]

At 5:30 a.m. on Thursday, May 24, 900 Ohio National Guardsmen, most of them teenagers,[22] arrived in a light rain. The troops included eight rifle companies, three machine-gun companies and a medical unit. The troops cleared a path through the picket line, and the sheriff's deputies, private security guards and replacement workers were able to leave the plant.[1][10][20][21][23][24]

Later that morning, Judge Stuart issued a new injunction banning all picketing in front of the Auto-Lite plant, but the picketers ignored the order.[1][20]

During the afternoon of May 24, Charles Phelps Taft II, son of the former president, was sent to Toledo by President Roosevelt to act as a special mediator in the dispute.[23] AFL president William Green sent an AFL organizer to the city as well to help the local union leadership bring the situation under control.[1]

During the late afternoon and early evening of May 24, a huge crowd of about 6,000 people gathered again in front of the Auto-Lite plant. Around 10 p.m., the crowd began taunting the soldiers and tossing bottles at them. The militia retaliated by launching a particularly strong form of tear gas into the crowd. The mob picked up the gas bombs and threw them back. For two hours, the gas barrage continued. Finally, the rioters surged back toward the plant gates. The National Guardsmen charged with bayonets, forcing the crowd back. Again the mob advanced. The soldiers fired into the air with no effect, then fired into the crowd—killing 27-year-old Frank Hubay (shot four times) and 20-year-old Steve Cyigon. Neither was an Auto-Lite worker, but had joined the crowd out of sympathy for the strikers. At least 15 others also received bullet wounds, while 10 Guardsmen were treated after being hit by bricks.[1][3][21][23][25]

A running battle occurred throughout the night between National Guard troops and picketers in a six-block area surrounding the plant.[1][25] A smaller crowd rushed the troops again a short time after Hubay and Cyigon's deaths, and two more picketers were injured by gunfire. A company of troops was sent to guard the Bingham Tool and Die plant, a squad of sheriff's deputies dispatched to protect the Logan Gear factory, and another 400 National Guardsmen ordered to the area. Nearly two dozen picketers and troopers were injured by hurled missiles during the night.[1][23] The total number of troops now in Toledo was 1,350, the largest peace-time military build-up in Ohio history.[1][3][11]

In the early morning hours of Friday, May 25, Auto-Lite officials agreed to keep the plant closed in an attempt to forestall further violence.[23]

Also on May 25, Clement Miniger was arrested after local residents swore out complaints that he had created a public nuisance by allowing his security guards to bomb the neighborhood with tear gas. Louis Budenz, too, was arrested—again on contempt of court charges.[23] Meanwhile, rioting continued throughout the area surrounding the Auto-Lite plant. Furious local citizens accosted National Guard troops, demanding that they stop gassing the city. Twice during the day, troops fired volleys into the air to drive rioters away from the plant. A trooper was shot in the thigh, and several picketers were severely injured by flying gas bombs and during bayonet charges. In the early evening, when the National Guard ran out of tear gas bombs, they began throwing bricks, stones and bottles back at the crowd to keep it away.[11][26]

Tensions worsened during the day. The AFL's Committee of 23 announced that 51 of the city's 103 unions had voted to support a general strike.[1][11]

That evening, local union members voted down a proposal to submit all grievances to the Automobile Labor Board for mediation. The plan had been offered by Auto-Lite officials the day before and endorsed by Taft. But the plan would have deprived the union of its most potent weapon (the closed plant and thousands of picketing supporters) and forced the union to accept proportional representation. Union members refused to accept either outcome.[1][11][23][25] Taft suggested submitting all grievances to the National Labor Board instead, but union members rejected that proposal as well.[1]

On Saturday, May 26, the violence began to die down somewhat. Troopers began arresting hundreds of people, most of whom paid a small bond and won release later the same day. Large crowds continued to gather in front of the Auto-Lite plant and hurl missiles at the troops, but the National Guard was able to maintain order during daylight hours without resorting to large-scale gas bombing. During the day, Ted Selander was arrested by the National Guard and held incommunicado. Despite the pleas of Muste and Lamb, Taft refused to use his influence to have Selander freed or his whereabouts revealed. With two of the AWP's three local leaders in jail, the AWP was unable to mobilize as many picketers as before.[1][11][27][28] Although a crowd of 5,000 gathered in the early evening, the National Guard was able to disperse the mob after heavily gassing the six-block neighborhood.[2]

That morning, Taft led a round of negotiations involving the union, officials of all three companies, and National Guard leaders. Union officials demanded that the plants remain closed during arbitration and that troops be withdrawn. But at Taft's urging, they agreed to lower their wage demands to a 10 percent increase.[2][28]

On Sunday, May 27, almost all picketing and rioting within the now eight-block-wide zone surrounding the Auto-Lite plant ceased.

This is what gets lost in the smarmy political machinations, the removed economists facts and figures and the rhetoric thrown back and forth. And my father heard stories from his grandparents of the English army guarding food exported from Ireland as a third of the country starved to death. Nassau Senior, a leading British economist said that he had figures that only a million had starved to death, and that would not be nearly enough . . . in the great hunger, Brittian's planned genocide of Ireland. See? There it happens every fifty years or so. Basing jail cell availability on African-American 4th grade test scores? The spirit is still alive. Looks like it will be front and center for this election, too.

 

[autry_denson]

Milton Friedman; that video was probably from when I was a young man! In one regard he was Ayn Rand before Ayn Rand was Ayn Rand. Political operators picked and chose from his massive volume of work, and used what they wanted, ignoring the rest. When looked at through his entire body of work, that miffed old man, who's face twisted ever so slightly, was a more accurate depiction, than the kindly old man selling personal responsibility. If he were right the paranoid schitzoprenic that I used to help out by delivering meals needs to take more responsibility for his life.

The irony is that in some of his most famous policy stances Friedman would be considered a radical leftist. Can you imagine a politician promoting a guaranteed minimum income for every American? Friedman did so. His negative income tax provided incentives for everyone to work more hours at higher wages, while also providing a safety net in the form of a guaranteed income for everyone. Pieces of the plan can be found in today's earned income tax credit, the expansion of which has been vehemently opposed by conservatives over and over.

One enormous difference between Friedman's ideals and today's dominant conservative ideals is that Friedman's were based on a genuine concern for expanding well-being and prosperity and his policy ideas were technocratic ways to implement his theoretical convictions. (Incidentally, some of his ideas, like the NIT, turned out to be beautiful in theory and ineffective in practice, as we found out from the set of income maintenance experiments conducted in the early 1970s). Today's dominant conservative ideals are designed to divide the nation and hoard resources and opportunities for a small segment of society - Friedman would be disgusted, just like some of today's most prominent intellectual and thoughtful conservatives are disgusted:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/18/opinion/brooks-thurston-howell-romney.html

p.s. I think we all do well to think about others' arguments and take seriously the idea that they may contain some kernels of truth, even if we disagree with the conclusions or the interpretations. Buster has written some things that are persuasive in this thread, as have other posters arguing from the right. But Buster: I think you could benefit from stepping back and considering other arguments more than anyone else on here. Several of the more thoughtful posters have engaged your lengthy posts - before you write the next one, take a break and think hard about whether some of their ideas may be at least partially right. Allow yourself to rethink your core arguments, it will probably help you clarify some things. It will definitely make the rest of us think more carefully about your arguments if they contain even a bit of recognition that some of the opposing viewpoints are reasonable.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

"There is nothing closer to eternal life than a government program." --- Reagan

 

[BobD]

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Personally, I think he’s a kind, decent man who says stupid things because he is pretending to be something he is not — some sort of cartoonish government-hater. But it scarcely matters. He’s running a depressingly inept presidential campaign. Mr. Romney, your entitlement reform ideas are essential, but when will the incompetence stop?


Frank Bruni is off today.

(some people say I am off every day.)

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Hey guys, I heard Obama said something untrue and hilarious as well on video.




























He said Mitt Romney still has a chance to win.

 

[pkt77242]

Is a bad educational system not going to produce students with inferior educations? Private schools outshine public schools in nearly every instance. This educational system is not about actually educating children. Do you deny that our public school system is a disaster? You'd have to live on the moon to not notice that. The government runs the system, why does the government not incur the blame? We live in an age where public school unions are actually suing to stop voucher programs that gives the "disadvantaged" kids the statistically-proven best chance for success. It's akin to a plantation getting the state to return runaway slaves. Gotta make that cash, homie--keep em in da district.

Secondly, for cops and firefighters....don't be fcking oblivious. Of course the government has a role. That doesn't mean we overpay overweight policeman to jack it for 30 years on their way to too costly pension. But the government has a role, no one is saying they don't and when you do to that argument you look like an idiot every time. You look like you don't have a real response. "Oh so now we're gunna live in a world where there isn't government!!" No. For the record, in the rare comparison of private police authority vs public police authority, the private enterprise demolishes the public ones. That would be airline screeners. The only airport in the country that has a private service has the best safety and performance record in the country.

And the military. Good God. Talk about waste.

Please do not lecture me on how schools are financed. I am knowledgeable on the subject. But you are mistaken if you think those other schools are good schools, or something resembling an efficient system. They aren't. And you're being ignorant to the fact that suburban schools and urban schools are two totally different beats, property values are one of many difference. Still though, when an inner city child is placed in a private school he outperforms his peers (exponentially as the grade increases). We don't allow choice. We don't allow the money to follow the child. We don't allow competition. Regulated competition, the cornerstone of capitalism and the free market, has crushed the price equilibrium of nearly every good and service since its inception. It has continually produced a better product.....but we don't see it in schools. We don't see it (as much) in health care. We don't see it where competition is replaced by programs.

The free market does make a better system. A decent politician can come up with a program that gets the government to tackle a problem, a great politician develops a policy that gets the free market to solve he problem.



Good for her. Honestly.



I quite literally talked to them. But you present an untrue choice for them. They are choosing a welfare check (a large one) over working at Wendy's, because they were never given a real education. I don't really blame them so much. As much as I clamor away at irresponsibility, it's really just a lack of education. I've known people in these situation who have woken up and desired a real path to success, and I'm calling that responsibility, and I'm calling for more of it in this so-called society.



Mitt Romney is a self-made man as much as the majority of Americans are. He was born with a great set of cards, and he took that and made the most of it. His primary social activity at Harvard was to organize weekend study sessions so people could get straights A's. When you graduate in the top 5% of your class, simultaneously, in both Harvard Law with a JD and Harvard Business with an MBA....I can't not call you a self-made man.

Guys like George Bush spent their time at Yale doing cocaine. He is not a self-made man.



Well you should probably be aware that the US Army pays for my school because my father fought and died for this country and his benefits were transferred to me.

I do go to a state school. Where have you heard me say that states should provide an education? And let's not pretend like I go to an efficient school. I am almost entirely unhappy these days with Ohio State's management of my major. And yet, with universities being primarily public sector endeavor, only 15 of the top 50 American universities are public ones. Hmmm. 70% of the upper echelon universities are private ones. Capitalism has crushed price equilibriums everywhere, and higher education will be no exception. It is already very obviously happening, and it will hit critical mass when the bubble bursts--we can teach the rudimentary classes via computer programs. There has been great progress on this front (in the incentivized private sector) and one day it will overtake the whole thing. People doubted capitalism and technology before, they will doubt this too.



Well don't try to put me in some imaginary corner in which all government action is inherently evil. That is fcking stupid, and sadly enough too often the comeback you people try to present.

Maternity leave is the best example you can come up with? That's pretty weak. And again, it's not so much the program, as it is the level of government instituting the program. The higher the level, the bigger the bureaucracy, the less efficiency, the more failure.

You can't use that as a method to judge schools. Public schools have a much different mandate than a private school like Harvard, Yale, Stanford, ND, etc. Their mandate is to educate the people of that state and most have requirements set by the state on who they must admit. I know that in AZ if you are a graduating senior in HS and you have a 3.0 in your core courses or a certain SAT/ACT score they have to accept you. No offense but the idea that you can compare them is just crazy.

Also if you want to look at the private sector and schools, lets take a look at the University of Phoenix. For profit schools is one of the worse things that can happen. They have inflated prices and give an inferior education. Do you want to go there? I didn't think so.

I would write more on this but work is calling.

 

[pkt77242]

Is a bad educational system not going to produce students with inferior educations? Private schools outshine public schools in nearly every instance. This educational system is not about actually educating children. Do you deny that our public school system is a disaster? You'd have to live on the moon to not notice that. The government runs the system, why does the government not incur the blame? We live in an age where public school unions are actually suing to stop voucher programs that gives the "disadvantaged" kids the statistically-proven best chance for success. It's akin to a plantation getting the state to return runaway slaves. Gotta make that cash, homie--keep em in da district.

Secondly, for cops and firefighters....don't be fcking oblivious. Of course the government has a role. That doesn't mean we overpay overweight policeman to jack it for 30 years on their way to too costly pension. But the government has a role, no one is saying they don't and when you do to that argument you look like an idiot every time. You look like you don't have a real response. "Oh so now we're gunna live in a world where there isn't government!!" No. For the record, in the rare comparison of private police authority vs public police authority, the private enterprise demolishes the public ones. That would be airline screeners. The only airport in the country that has a private service has the best safety and performance record in the country.

And the military. Good God. Talk about waste.

Please do not lecture me on how schools are financed. I am knowledgeable on the subject. But you are mistaken if you think those other schools are good schools, or something resembling an efficient system. They aren't. And you're being ignorant to the fact that suburban schools and urban schools are two totally different beats, property values are one of many difference. Still though, when an inner city child is placed in a private school he outperforms his peers (exponentially as the grade increases). We don't allow choice. We don't allow the money to follow the child. We don't allow competition. Regulated competition, the cornerstone of capitalism and the free market, has crushed the price equilibrium of nearly every good and service since its inception. It has continually produced a better product.....but we don't see it in schools. We don't see it (as much) in health care. We don't see it where competition is replaced by programs.

The free market does make a better system. A decent politician can come up with a program that gets the government to tackle a problem, a great politician develops a policy that gets the free market to solve he problem.



Good for her. Honestly.



I quite literally talked to them. But you present an untrue choice for them. They are choosing a welfare check (a large one) over working at Wendy's, because they were never given a real education. I don't really blame them so much. As much as I clamor away at irresponsibility, it's really just a lack of education. I've known people in these situation who have woken up and desired a real path to success, and I'm calling that responsibility, and I'm calling for more of it in this so-called society.



Mitt Romney is a self-made man as much as the majority of Americans are. He was born with a great set of cards, and he took that and made the most of it. His primary social activity at Harvard was to organize weekend study sessions so people could get straights A's. When you graduate in the top 5% of your class, simultaneously, in both Harvard Law with a JD and Harvard Business with an MBA....I can't not call you a self-made man.

Guys like George Bush spent their time at Yale doing cocaine. He is not a self-made man.



Well you should probably be aware that the US Army pays for my school because my father fought and died for this country and his benefits were transferred to me.

I do go to a state school. Where have you heard me say that states should provide an education? And let's not pretend like I go to an efficient school. I am almost entirely unhappy these days with Ohio State's management of my major. And yet, with universities being primarily public sector endeavor, only 15 of the top 50 American universities are public ones. Hmmm. 70% of the upper echelon universities are private ones. Capitalism has crushed price equilibriums everywhere, and higher education will be no exception. It is already very obviously happening, and it will hit critical mass when the bubble bursts--we can teach the rudimentary classes via computer programs. There has been great progress on this front (in the incentivized private sector) and one day it will overtake the whole thing. People doubted capitalism and technology before, they will doubt this too.



Well don't try to put me in some imaginary corner in which all government action is inherently evil. That is fcking stupid, and sadly enough too often the comeback you people try to present.

Maternity leave is the best example you can come up with? That's pretty weak. And again, it's not so much the program, as it is the level of government instituting the program. The higher the level, the bigger the bureaucracy, the less efficiency, the more failure.

You can't use that as a method to judge schools. Public schools have a much different mandate than a private school like Harvard, Yale, Stanford, ND, etc. Their mandate is to educate the people of that state and most have requirements set by the state on who they must admit. I know that in AZ if you are a graduating senior in HS and you have a 3.0 in your core courses or a certain SAT/ACT score they have to accept you. No offense but the idea that you can compare them is just crazy.

Also if you want to look at the private sector and schools, lets take a look at the University of Phoenix. For profit schools is one of the worse things that can happen. They have inflated prices and give an inferior education. Do you want to go there? I didn't think so.

I would write more on this but work is calling.

 

[connor_in]

Captain America heeds call to be 'Ultimate' president – USATODAY.com

 

[Mr. Larson]

OOOPS! Video of a Romney addressing donors at a fund raiser held in the home of Marc Leder back in May.

PBS NewsHour briefly touched on this last night...just located the video and a few articles on the topic.

Discuss....

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/sjET1LGw5vM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

SECRET VIDEO: Romney Tells Millionaire Donors What He REALLY Thinks of Obama Voters | Mother Jones

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/18/opinion/brooks-thurston-howell-romney.html?_r=1

 

[RallySonsOfND]

Romney isn't wrong AT ALL on what he said. People respond to incentives. So somebody living off the government is going to continue to vote for those politicians who support that.

It is pathetic that almost 50% of our population doesn't pay federal income taxes. When I was overseas and people asked me about the US and our government and all that, they were appalled when I told them that almost 50% of our population doesn't pay income taxes, but we still have politicians claim the rich don't pay their fair share. GET REAL.

If the capital gains tax is pushed north you WILL see a huge decline in investment in this country. If the tax on dividends is pushed up, you will see a large chunk pulled out of the stock market. Dividends and capital gains are what a lot of people live off of when they get older. I know my grandparents do. Raise those taxes, they'll pull all that money out.

And get rid of the inheritance tax. Completely.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Our nation's problem is that we consume too much, and make too little.

Ergo, eliminate the tax on income, and replace with a consumption tax.

 

[Bubba]

Our nation's problem is that we consume too much, and make too little.

Ergo, eliminate the tax on income, and replace with a consumption tax.

I can agree with this. Or, at least significantly reduce the income tax and make it a flat rate.

I also think we need to incentivize production in our own country... whether that means higher fees/taxes on imports or some sort of tax break for manufacturing in the US.

 

[Quinntastic]

What I find most interesting about this thread is that everyone has their mind made up, their opinions set and really nothing that any one else could say or do is going to drastically change that. The Romney supporters aren't going to flip to Obama's side and vice versa. So why are you guys wasting all of this time and energy internet-yelling at each other? It's fruitless.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

I can agree with this. Or, at least significantly reduce the income tax and make it a flat rate.

I also think we need to incentivize production in our own country... whether that means higher fees/taxes on imports or some sort of tax break for manufacturing in the US.

Cutting employment taxes would make it a lot cheaper to hire people, that's for sure.

But the way the Fed's going, our inflation is going to far outpace any increases in production anyway...And the one commodity that benefits most (oil) is the one thing we don't really make.

 

[Cali_domer]

What I find most interesting about this thread is that everyone has their mind made up, their opinions set and really nothing that any one else could say or do is going to drastically change that. The Romney supporters aren't going to flip to Obama's side and vice versa. So why are you guys wasting all of this time and energy internet-yelling at each other? It's fruitless.

Lol, every time I see this pop up to the top that is my exact thought.

 

[woolybug25]

Romney isn't wrong AT ALL on what he said. People respond to incentives. So somebody living off the government is going to continue to vote for those politicians who support that.

It is pathetic that almost 50% of our population doesn't pay federal income taxes. When I was overseas and people asked me about the US and our government and all that, they were appalled when I told them that almost 50% of our population doesn't pay income taxes, but we still have politicians claim the rich don't pay their fair share. GET REAL.

If the capital gains tax is pushed north you WILL see a huge decline in investment in this country. If the tax on dividends is pushed up, you will see a large chunk pulled out of the stock market. Dividends and capital gains are what a lot of people live off of when they get older. I know my grandparents do. Raise those taxes, they'll pull all that money out.

And get rid of the inheritance tax. Completely.

You completely missed the point of why his comments were contraversial. It's not that he said that too much of our country is dependent on aid, it was that he said that those people don't vote for him. So in turn, it's not his job to care about them.

Pretty startling to hear a guy that has been labeled to only want to help the rich literally say it himself.

I'm guessing that he wasn't thrilled about the latino comments to come out either. It was pretty much the only demographic that people thought he could make late inroads in, but that ship has now sailed.

 

[Redbar]

p.s. I think we all do well to think about others' arguments and take seriously the idea that they may contain some kernels of truth, even if we disagree with the conclusions or the interpretations. Buster has written some things that are persuasive in this thread, as have other posters arguing from the right. But Buster: I think you could benefit from stepping back and considering other arguments more than anyone else on here. Several of the more thoughtful posters have engaged your lengthy posts - before you write the next one, take a break and think hard about whether some of their ideas may be at least partially right. Allow yourself to rethink your core arguments, it will probably help you clarify some things. It will definitely make the rest of us think more carefully about your arguments if they contain even a bit of recognition that some of the opposing viewpoints are reasonable.[/QUOTE]


I appreciate your post, every word of it is very reasonable and I as much as anyone would love for this to be the way. In a perfect world or even perfect virtual world, intellectuals could set aside bias and explore profound issues without anger or prejudice and admit the kernel of truth in each others arguments to arrive at more perfect conclusions. My only concern is that in the real world kernels of truth lead to things like suicide bombings, wars, genocide, federal building bombings, church shootings, and the demonization and targeting of large segments of the population.
Here in Louisiana we had a politician who was intelligent, articulate, and did a good job of presenting kernels of truth for consumption. The only problem was the conclusions he drew required a suspension of morality and human decency. Unfortunately, most people have the intellect to process and present copious truths, but lack the maturity, sensitivity, or desire to place them in their proper context. I agree that we all need to work on this. Which is why I am sure you invoked the virtuous concept of reflection. I would only add that I think it at least as important to know the premise and the ultimate goal of any political discussion. If the premise is all men are created equal, and if the ultimate goal is to promote the general welfare, I would think these kernels of truth would lead us eventually to where we all want to be. Maybe those are some big if's.

 

[enrico514]

I can agree with this. Or, at least significantly reduce the income tax and make it a flat rate.

I also think we need to incentivize production in our own country... whether that means higher fees/taxes on imports or some sort of tax break for manufacturing in the US.

Smartest comment made in this entire thread.

 

[woolybug25]

 

[Bluto]

Good one Wooly. Romney is a douche bag. "If only he were Mexican". That
made me want to kick his damn head off.

 

[Bluto]

Our nation's problem is that we consume too much, and make too little.

Ergo, eliminate the tax on income, and replace with a consumption tax.

Unfortunately consumption is what drives the economy no?

 

[connor_in]

p.s. I think we all do well to think about others' arguments and take seriously the idea that they may contain some kernels of truth, even if we disagree with the conclusions or the interpretations. Buster has written some things that are persuasive in this thread, as have other posters arguing from the right. But Buster: I think you could benefit from stepping back and considering other arguments more than anyone else on here. Several of the more thoughtful posters have engaged your lengthy posts - before you write the next one, take a break and think hard about whether some of their ideas may be at least partially right. Allow yourself to rethink your core arguments, it will probably help you clarify some things. It will definitely make the rest of us think more carefully about your arguments if they contain even a bit of recognition that some of the opposing viewpoints are reasonable.

I appreciate your post, every word of it is very reasonable and I as much as anyone would love for this to be the way. In a perfect world or even perfect virtual world, intellectuals could set aside bias and explore profound issues without anger or prejudice and admit the kernel of truth in each others arguments to arrive at more perfect conclusions. My only concern is that in the real world kernels of truth lead to things like suicide bombings, wars, genocide, federal building bombings, church shootings, and the demonization and targeting of large segments of the population.
Here in Louisiana we had a politician who was intelligent, articulate, and did a good job of presenting kernels of truth for consumption. The only problem was the conclusions he drew required a suspension of morality and human decency. Unfortunately, most people have the intellect to process and present copious truths, but lack the maturity, sensitivity, or desire to place them in their proper context. I agree that we all need to work on this. Which is why I am sure you invoked the virtuous concept of reflection. I would only add that I think it at least as important to know the premise and the ultimate goal of any political discussion. If the premise is all men are created equal, and if the ultimate goal is to promote the general welfare, I would think these kernels of truth would lead us eventually to where we all want to be. Maybe those are some big if's.[/QUOTE]

Here's the thing...the R argument or the D argument are not necessarily wrong...they just lead us down to two different outcomes...the American people in their infinite wisdom pendulum between the two and pick a meandering journey down the center

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[enrico514]

Unfortunately consumption is what drives the economy no?

You can't consume more than you make/produce year after year. The economy will take a hit... sooner rather than later.

 

[ND NYC]

that video is/will be Romneys Waterloo.
talk about a self inflcted wound.
ouch.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Moocher states:

Oh, sorry. Here's the Buster translation:

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL...MOOCHERSTATES: