Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

Bishop2b5

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Measure to break California into 3 states removed from November ballot after court ruling
https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/18/us/california-three-states-initiative-court/index.html

Cali Supreme Court shuts down ballot even though it has plenty of enough sigs.

"For the People"... not

Even if everyone in Cali wanted this and the people of the state agreed to divide into two or three different states, wouldn't the US have to approve it? I mean that you couldn't just decide to be three different states and insist that the US Senate accept two senators from each, for instance.
 

NorthDakota

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Even if everyone in Cali wanted this and the people of the state agreed to divide into two or three different states, wouldn't the US have to approve it? I mean that you couldn't just decide to be three different states and insist that the US Senate accept two senators from each, for instance.

I think the Feds have a say.

California should probably be broken up in all honesty, tough to anticipate that kind of population showing up. Texas probably should too. Tough to represent areas of that size and population in a fair fashion.
 

Bluto

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Measure to break California into 3 states removed from November ballot after court ruling
https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/18/us/california-three-states-initiative-court/index.html

Cali Supreme Court shuts down ballot even though it has plenty of enough sigs.

"For the People"... not

Some billionaire jerk off wrote and bank rolled the entire effort to get this on the ballot and it only requires a couple hundred thousand signatures (about 1% of the population) to do so. It really isn’t about being “for the people”. It’s more a case of some asshole with too much money thinking he’s got a great idea engaging in a winner takes all approach, which makes this and many of the other propositions floated and some that have passed perfect examples of how not to develop good policy/engage in good governance. I am of the opinion that ballot propositions should be done away with completely in the State. Unfortunately, what was a good idea has been perverted by wealthy special interests and or wealthy individuals.
 
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ACamp1900

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Some billionaire jerk off wrote and bank rolled the entire effort to get this on the ballot and it only requires a couple hundred thousand signatures (about 1% of the population) to do so. It really isn’t about being “for the people”. It’s more a case of some asshole with too much money thinking he’s got a great idea engaging in a winner takes all approach, which makes this and many of the other propositions floated and some that have passed perfect examples of how not to develop good policy/engage in good governance. I am of the opinion that ballot propositions should be done away with completely in the State. Unfortunately, what was a good idea has been perverted by wealthy special interests and or wealthy individuals.

You mean you don't like amending our state Constitution every couple years??
 

IrishLax

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Even if everyone in Cali wanted this and the people of the state agreed to divide into two or three different states, wouldn't the US have to approve it? I mean that you couldn't just decide to be three different states and insist that the US Senate accept two senators from each, for instance.

Yes, you have to actually have your state admitted to the Union by Congress. If this had all passed, basically they'd notify Congress that they want to split into 3 states and that the state itself consents to getting split into 3 states.

Then Congress would vote on whether to allow that.
 

Irish YJ

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Some billionaire jerk off wrote and bank rolled the entire effort to get this on the ballot and it only requires a couple hundred thousand signatures (about 1% of the population) to do so. It really isn’t about being “for the people”. It’s more a case of some asshole with too much money thinking he’s got a great idea engaging in a winner takes all approach, which makes this and many of the other propositions floated and some that have passed perfect examples of how not to develop good policy/engage in good governance. I am of the opinion that ballot propositions should be done away with completely in the State. Unfortunately, what was a good idea has been perverted by wealthy special interests and or wealthy individuals.

So it's great when billionaire jerk offs like Soros bank roll lib efforts globally, but when someone pushes an agenda in-state, it's silly. lol.

Ballot propositions are about the purest form of people voting directly for what they want. IIRC they got 600k votes. If it's so silly, why not let the vote happen and die on the vine. If on the other hand it is what people want, you're telling me that politicians know better and have the right to abort it before it gets a chance?
 

Ndaccountant

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So it's great when billionaire jerk offs like Soros bank roll lib efforts globally, but when someone pushes an agenda in-state, it's silly. lol.

Ballot propositions are about the purest form of people voting directly for what they want. IIRC they got 600k votes. If it's so silly, why not let the vote happen and die on the vine. If on the other hand it is what people want, you're telling me that politicians know better and have the right to abort it before it gets a chance?

It totally ignores the beauty of representative democracy. Unrestrained democracy provides no safeguards for the rights of the individual, leaving him defenseless against the mob. Democracy is not freedom. When your natural rights to life, liberty, and property are subject to the whims of a majority, you have no rights at all.
 

Bluto

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So it's great when billionaire jerk offs like Soros bank roll lib efforts globally, but when someone pushes an agenda in-state, it's silly. lol.

Ballot propositions are about the purest form of people voting directly for what they want. IIRC they got 600k votes. If it's so silly, why not let the vote happen and die on the vine. If on the other hand it is what people want, you're telling me that politicians know better and have the right to abort it before it gets a chance?

I didn’t say anything about Soros so let’s be perfectly clear, I do not think he or any other individual should be allowed to horde the amount of wealth that enables and empowers such stupidity. Most on the right think otherwise. That is the fundamental problem.

Yes, I think most politicians do know more about crafting good public policy than the average citizen. In this specific case given how the State was proposed to be divided I can guarantee that every member of the State legislature knows more about California’s water distribution system than the Buffon behind this ballot measure and based on questionares about water in the State more than the average citizen in California. Unfortunately, legislators are now overly reliant on organizations and individuals with deep pockets so they turn to this direct ballot measure nonsense to relieve themselves from having to make tough decisions based on the evidence at hand.
 
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Irish YJ

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It totally ignores the beauty of representative democracy. Unrestrained democracy provides no safeguards for the rights of the individual, leaving him defenseless against the mob. Democracy is not freedom. When your natural rights to life, liberty, and property are subject to the whims of a majority, you have no rights at all.

Our representative democracy.... beauty is not a word at this time I'd use to describe it. Inefficient is probably the best word. Nothing is getting done, pork is the game, and partisan politics is the name.

This initiative has zero to do with anything limiting life, liberty, and property.
 

Irish YJ

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I didn’t say anything about Soros so let’s be perfectly clear, I do not think he or any other individual should be allowed to horde the amount of wealth that enables and empowers such stupidity. Most on the right think otherwise. That is the fundamental problem.

Yes, I think most politicians do know more about crafting good public policy than the average citizen. In this specific case given how the State was proposed to be divided I can guarantee that every member of the State legislature knows more about California’s water distribution system than the Buffon behind this ballot measure and based on questionares about water in the State more than the average citizen in California. Unfortunately, legislators are now overly reliant on organizations and individuals with deep pockets so they turn to this direct ballot measure nonsense to relieve themselves from having to make tough decisions based on the evidence at hand.

Politics for a long time have been about as inefficient and partisan driven as possible. Nothing is getting done.

Water deals can be cut. All states do it.

California in particular, while being one of the heaviest taxed states, has one of the worst school systems, and largest homeless problems. Also the highest debt to income ratio in the US, and is also one of the 10 worst states fiscally.

But hey, anyone that is unhappy with the above must be a jerk off for wanting a change.
 

IrishLax

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Classic example today of why I always give some side-eye to the idea that "big government" is a solution to anything...

I got a letter today from the IRS saying we didn't pay our taxes and here are your late fees and blah blah blah...

But, we absolutely did pay our taxes, and I have receipts and records to prove it. Including the transfer of funds to the IRS.

How is it even possible that we filed our taxes and paid them electronically the same day... using a big name brand service, which should be fool proof... and you have no record of payment. How do you just lose track of the money? It should be physically impossible.

Reminder, the IRS gets ripped off for almost half a trillion dollars a year.

If the government can't even do the one thing government's are supposed to be able to do well, how can they be trusted to do anything else better than John Q citizen or private enterprise?
 

Irish YJ

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Classic example today of why I always give some side-eye to the idea that "big government" is a solution to anything...

I got a letter today from the IRS saying we didn't pay our taxes and here are your late fees and blah blah blah...

But, we absolutely did pay our taxes, and I have receipts and records to prove it. Including the transfer of funds to the IRS.

How is it even possible that we filed our taxes and paid them electronically the same day... using a big name brand service, which should be fool proof... and you have no record of payment. How do you just lose track of the money? It should be physically impossible.

Reminder, the IRS gets ripped off for almost half a trillion dollars a year.

If the government can't even do the one thing government's are supposed to be able to do well, how can they be trusted to do anything else better than John Q citizen or private enterprise?

Sounds like they need to make the IRS bigger so that they have more people to keep track of their payments....
 

NorthDakota

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Classic example today of why I always give some side-eye to the idea that "big government" is a solution to anything...

I got a letter today from the IRS saying we didn't pay our taxes and here are your late fees and blah blah blah...

But, we absolutely did pay our taxes, and I have receipts and records to prove it. Including the transfer of funds to the IRS.

How is it even possible that we filed our taxes and paid them electronically the same day... using a big name brand service, which should be fool proof... and you have no record of payment. How do you just lose track of the money? It should be physically impossible.

Reminder, the IRS gets ripped off for almost half a trillion dollars a year.

If the government can't even do the one thing government's are supposed to be able to do well, how can they be trusted to do anything else better than John Q citizen or private enterprise?

I'm with you. How about we privatize the IRS?
 

Ndaccountant

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Our representative democracy.... beauty is not a word at this time I'd use to describe it. Inefficient is probably the best word. Nothing is getting done, pork is the game, and partisan politics is the name.

This initiative has zero to do with anything limiting life, liberty, and property.

The solution to the ills of today is not mob rule. That is what stupid things like ballot measures promote.
 

Irish YJ

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The solution to the ills of today is not mob rule. That is what stupid things like ballot measures promote.

The ills of today don't seem to get get solved by our government either. We elect these fine folks who end up doing nothing but playing partisan games and widening the divide.

I'd have concern of a ballot measure which tried to limit freedoms, but....the ballot in question, is more a vote of no-confidence of the existing state government, and the frustration from a segment of the population who are not being represented.

When all you have is two choices, which neither represents your beliefs, a ballot sometimes is the only way to go. This moment in time is a perfect picture of why our democracy is not beautiful. It's turned into a joke, and not because of the person elected.
 

Irish YJ

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California's Supreme Court thinks the people of my state are irrelevant – We can't even vote on a breakup
California's Supreme Court thinks the people of my state are irrelevant – We can't even vote on a breakup | Fox News

The right of Californians to self-government and democracy suffered a serious blow Wednesday when the state Supreme Court ordered that a proposition asking voters if they want to break the most populous state in the nation into three states must be removed from the November ballot.

The state’s highest court ruled that while ballot measures can be used to amend the California constitution, more significant revisions to the constitution require action by the state Legislature.

Ruling on a lawsuit by an environmental group seeking the block the vote on breaking up the state, the court wrote that “the potential harm in permitting the measure to remain on the ballot outweighs the potential harm in delaying the proposition to a future election.”

But in fact, it appears that the proposition was yanked off the ballot because it was too big a threat to the established power structure of state government in Sacramento.

Consider the irony. The initiative easily qualified for the ballot – with over twice the number of required signatures, from every county in the state – because many voters believe they don’t have a say in how they are governed, and believe their elected representatives don’t represent them. It’s clear they are right.

The elites in Sacramento were afraid of their failures being exposed and couldn’t face the scathing rebuke they could have received from voters in November. So they flexed their political muscle and went running to the courts to avoid the light being shined on the truth.

That truth is that the state Legislature has failed the people of California. Here are 10 reasons why:

1) Californians no longer have a say in how we are governed. We are pawns in the hands of a few powerful elites that don’t have our best interests in mind.

2) State government takes in record amounts in taxes, and rewards the average Californian with oppressive regulations, failing schools, crumbling infrastructure and unaffordable housing.

3) The state prides itself on being the fifth-largest economy in the world, yet that means nothing to people living in bankrupt towns and to citizens in communities where they can’t drink water out of their taps.

4) While the state continues to build an expensive, unwanted high-speed rail to nowhere, the average Californian is just trying to get to work every day on roads that are in disrepair and in areas where unchecked growth has created utter gridlock.

5) Our urban areas suffer from crime, homelessness, filth and human waste on the streets. U.S. News & World Report recently ranked California 50th in overall quality of life.

6) People are leaving California in record numbers – in search of lower taxes, greater opportunity and futures that are successful and sustainable.

7) Businesses are departing California seeking business-friendly states where they can invest and expand.

8) Many retirees can no longer justify staying in California, where their fixed incomes aren’t sufficient. Housing and other costs of living are lower in other states such as Florida, Nevada and Texas.

9) Millennials – our future – love the California weather and lifestyle, but can’t afford to stay in the state. So they are taking their dreams, their talents, their ambitions and their future family roots elsewhere.

10) California will remain ignored in presidential elections because candidates will assume whoever the Democrats nominate will carry the state. Candidates for federal office on both sides of the political aisle will continue to come to the state to throw their parties and pick our pockets, not really caring what our problems or ideas are, and with no intent to take solutions back to Washington. Electoral relevance was another goal of the ballot proposition that will not be realized.

In spite of all the “what-ifs” about the proposition to break up the state, they pale in comparison to all the “what is” in California. Right now we have utter failure. And the trail of responsibility leads right back to the halls of the state Capitol.

State officials knew they couldn’t answer for these failures or risk this threat to their power, so they went to the courts, cried “foul” and won. The state Supreme Court has, in effect, deemed the people of California irrelevant.

But the people of California see this for exactly what it is. It is the validation that we were on to something truthful. That we were accurate in knowing that Sacramento does not have our best interests in mind. We were right. And this ruling proves it.

Opponents of the ballot proposition believed a question like this should more appropriately be handled in the courts and via the legislative process. They said this was too important an issue to trust to the hands of the voters. They couldn’t be more wrong.

I trust my neighbors and fellow citizens in California far more than the ruling class in Sacramento to know what the needs and priorities of my community are. I trust those who love this state like I do to know how to improve it, to address its problems and to find practical solutions for the problems that state government has created. I trust I’m not alone in believing that California can do better.

Six judges just silenced California voters. I, for one, will not forget this injustice and hope my fellow Californians won’t either. They have been wronged. And they should be outraged.

When the courts usurp the rights and the voice of the people it is a dark day for democracy. Liberties that are revoked are rarely reinstated.
 

Irish#1

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This has to be a power play by the "Elite", right? What is the harm in adding that question to the ballot? It wouldn't automatically make it law.

The solution to the ills of today is not mob rule. That is what stupid things like ballot measures promote.

This process has been in place in every state for ages. I haven't seen any evidence of "mob rule" laying waste to a state.
 
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greyhammer90

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The argument was that a vote to split California into 4 separate states was effectively a vote to alter the Constitution of the state of California (almost certainly true). The guy who submitted this for the ballot was somehow attempting to classify a dissolution of the state of California as a "law", and not as a restructuring or altering of the state Constitution. An initiative to alter the state constitution has to be approved by the legislature before going up for public vote. Based on the language I've seen from the order, the Supreme Court appears to have essentially issued an injunction delaying the vote until a proper determination of the classification of this initiative can be made, so that they can be sure that it's actually following the requirements of the law and isn't being railroaded in on a much less stringent procedure. They've determined that the delay of the vote to make sure that it went through proper procedure is more important than getting the vote done this exact year. Because the harm would be pretty bad if this was done incorrectly.

But hey, those elites amirite?
 
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BleedBlueGold

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Relevant to the Democratic Socialist referenced above and some good food for thought on the fact that communism/socialism in their purest forms has never worked anywhere. There are socialist principles that are worth discussing and potentially adopting, but true socialism would be a disaster. I bolded some interesting points -- https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffre...dic-countries-are-not-socialist/#637dda8274ad

Just now seeing this article. Fantastic. As I was reading, I found myself trying to re-name what the Left wants. The author did it for me (and much better than anything I could've came up with.) "Compassionate Capitalism" is perfect.

You'll still get people on the Right who will argue about the entitlements, higher taxes, etc. But at least we'd all be able to move on from the Socialism vs Democratic Socialism B.S. argument that gets us nowhere when trying to actually discuss issues and solutions.
 

Legacy

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...it ought to be the happiness and glory of a representative to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence, and the most unreserved communication with his constituents. Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion, high respect; their business, unremitted attention. It is his duty to sacrifice his repose, his pleasures, his satisfactions, to theirs; and above all, ever, and in all cases, to prefer their interest to his own. But his unbiassed opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. These he does not derive from your pleasure; no, nor from the law and the constitution. They are a trust from Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable. Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
Edmund Burke
 

Bluto

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Politics for a long time have been about as inefficient and partisan driven as possible. Nothing is getting done.

Water deals can be cut. All states do it.

California in particular, while being one of the heaviest taxed states, has one of the worst school systems, and largest homeless problems. Also the highest debt to income ratio in the US, and is also one of the 10 worst states fiscally.

But hey, anyone that is unhappy with the above must be a jerk off for wanting a change.

No he is (along with many of the other tech barons) a jerkoff for proposing something that would do little to solve any of those issues you listed above and would only serve to further complicate the matter. In some instances it might make things worse. The proposal takes one of the richest parts of and two of the biggest economic drivers of the state (LA and the Bay Area) and makes two states out of those areas. It then takes most of the poorest counties in the State based on poverty rates (the central valley and Imperial county) and clusters those all together along with Orange County and San Diego County to form another State.

As to the water issue, sure water deals can be “cut” but in the inter mountain West good luck cutting any deals for someone else’s water. It no longer happens. LA municipal water owns the rights to water in the Owens Valley. San Francisco owns the rights to the water in the Hetch Hetchy. Those would now be in another State. Take a look at the rest of the water delivery system in California and if you find anything comparable by all means let me know. Sorting out the water rights and environmental protections for the watersheds that supply water to each of the individual water rights for each individual source in each proposed State would in and of its self take decades of litigation and cost hundreds of millions of dollars.

Please feel free to explain to me how any of that is going to address the issues you listed above. With all that in mind if this genius truly wanted to do something constructive he could throw some of his billions into engaging with legislators and the public to foster a constructive dialogue to help develop legislation that would make sensible reforms to CEQA and or Prop 13, which is the root of most of California’s problems in that it promotes the use of one time fees and a boom and bust cycle of public finance. Instead he chooses to toss hand grenades. I get it good public policy isn’t sexy, dramatic, big time or whatever...
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Harvard law professor Adrian Vermeule just published an article at The Josias titled "According to Truth":

One of the most curious features of life under political liberalism—for present purposes, the doctrine that the central task of politics is to promote individual autonomy and to secure its preconditions—is that all politics and political conversation happens at one step removed, one meta-level up. Instead of pursuing substantive excellence and justice, we have circuitous conversations about statistical properties like “diversity”; instead of deciding what ought to be permitted, what condemned, we debate “civility”; instead of discerning truth, we quarrel over “religious liberty”; instead of protecting the most vulnerable, we conceal our vices and crimes under the rubric of “choice,” in both market and non-market spheres (although to be fair there are almost no non-market spheres left any more). When we ask about Truth, liberalism answers “What is ‘Truth’? Your truth is not someone else’s truth, and it is no more legitimate to make your truth into public policy than it would be to force your taste in ice cream upon everyone else. All this is solely of private concern.”


Many have observed this, and traced its causes and consequences, including a number of important recent diagnoses of the fragility or even failure of liberalism. It seems to me that some of these diagnoses, acute though they may be, have left out or at least underplayed something simple but important: a deep human revulsion at this muffled, perpetually repressed, and indirect anti-political politics. One cannot perpetually stand at a remove from the substance of our common life, pursuing a shadowy half-life of consumerism in the commercial Market while seeing the civic Forum through a glass darkly. Human nature wearies, sickens, and eventually rebels. The Second Vatican Council speaks of man’s restless desire to “live fully according to truth.” It seems to increasing numbers of people that living fully means living according to the truth not only in the family and local community and marketplace, but in the polity as a whole. Liberalism, in its myopia, has left this out of its calculations, and as a result the liberal order is not ultimately compatible with the deepest desires and beliefs of its subjects. The Achilles’ heel of liberalism is this hunger for the real as expressed in politics, the hunger to come to grips with the substance of the common good.

The most interesting conversation I’ve had lately in an academic setting was with a colleague—a man of the left who thinks of himself as “secular,” but who is in fact animated by a vibrant faith in the progress of history—who asked me to lunch and pressed the question “in a fully Catholic polity, the sort you would like to bring about, what would happen to me, a Jew”? (Nothing bad, I assured him). This was no second-order discussion of “political liberty” or “rights” or “overlapping consensus.” This was a passionate concrete question about the fate of an individual, a people, and the shape that a polity might take, all inseparably linked. It was, at last, after all the academic workshops on “procedural justice” and “tolerance,” a genuinely political conversation.

We are witnessing, with increasing tempo on many fronts, the outbreak of rebellions against anti-political politics. This is a phenomenon of both the “left” and the “right.” That very fact suggests that the left-right dimension is no longer, if it ever was, a particularly useful guide to our politics, and that we need categories more relevant than the seating-chart of the French National Assembly. Trump, Brexit, the recent electoral results in Austria, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Poland and elsewhere — none of these are easy to fit into a standard left-right frame.

One way of understanding the fault-lines emerging in many liberal polities is to cast them as a conflict between liberal elites of the “center” of the one hand, and “populists” who contest the center’s fanaticism on the other, as witness the coalition of left and right populists in Italy. It is sometimes suggested that the main issue is economic — that populism is a reaction by the have-nots against the self-dealing of the haves. In a somewhat more sophisticated variant, the idea is that populism reacts against not only the economic superiority of the haves, but their insufferable cultural smugness, born of conviction of their own merit.

Although all this unquestionably captures something, I don’t think it is the whole story, in part because it leaves out the essentially spiritual dimension of the hunger for the real, of the desire to live fully in the Forum as well as the Market. Consider the offspring of liberalism that goes by the name of “progressivism.” (Let me bracket here inevitable and interminable controversies about taxonomy—whether progressivism counts as a species of the liberal genus, as a corrupted version of true liberalism, or what have you. In my view progressivism is a descendant of classical liberalism, especially in its Lockean and Millian variants, and may justly be termed “liberalism” in the same way that the child traditionally takes on the family name of the father—even if, as in this case, the child and the father are often at odds. Yet these taxonomic and genetic questions are not critical for the questions I pursue here.) In some versions, at least, progressivism gets one big thing exactly right: It attempts to grapple with the real, to make politics and our common life fully and vibrantly political again. And it does so because of the animating faith of its adherents, complete with liturgies and sacraments and hope for salvation and an account of final things, of the end times. To be clear, I believe it to be a corrupted and heretical faith, an odd and distinctive mix of Pelagianism and Gnosticism, but it has this one excellent quality, that it hopes to escape the spectral underworld of liberal politics.

From this point, there two ways to go wrong. The politics of reality might be, from anyone’s own standpoint, the wrong politics, substantively speaking. A stock liberal claim is that this possibility is so fearsome that everyone prefers or at least ought to prefer public “neutrality”—as among religious views, visions of justice, or any of the other things that people care about most deeply. On this claim, all are risk-minimizers, and liberalism will emerge in equilibrium as the cautious second choice of all. Yet it quickly becomes apparent that this “neutrality” is just another substantive view about who should be allowed into the Forum for what purposes, and what may be said there. The hunger for the real might then make people so desperate, so sick of the essential falsity of liberalism, that they become willing to gamble that the Truth (what liberals would call “their version of truth”) will prevail—or at least willing to gamble on entering into coalition with other sorts of anti-liberals, as in the Italian coalition of “populists” of left and right. In an even better version, the willingness to take one’s chances with post-liberalism is not the spirit of the desperate gambler, but is rather the spirit of faith—never certain, but inspiring and inspired by theologically-inflected hope. This last answer is hardly confined to, say, Catholic traditionalists. The faith in the triumph of an secularized-but-providential history that animates so many strands of progressivism manifestly also fills its adherents with a (warped) version of theological hope. Of course it is true—it’s obvious—that there are versions of non-liberalism that are worse than liberalism. At a certain point, however, people can no longer abide perpetually living in fear of the worst-case scenario. A “liberalism of fear” is ultimately intolerable for creatures fashioned to live in hope.

There is another and somewhat more subtle way that things can go wrong. Liberalism muffles the political in second-order concepts like “civility” and “tolerance” and “choice,” and the hunger for real politics rightly rebels against this. But it does not follow that these concepts have no value at all, when rightly placed within a larger ordering to good substantive ends. If civility, tolerance, and their ilk are bad masters, and tyrannous when made into idols, they may still be good servants. The shibboleths of liberalism all have chastened, nonliberal counterparts, justified in nonliberal terms. J.F. Stephen, the withering Victorian critic of John Stuart Mill, was clear-minded about this, pointing out the many reasons why a prudent sovereign ordering affairs to the common good might choose for that very reason to leave particular matters to individual choice, or might be reluctant to employ the “rough engine” of the law even where serious wrongs occur. “Free trade” and “the free market” are idols, but merchants benefit the community and must be given a duly regulated scope within which to ply their trade. “Civility” and “tolerance” may be cryptic terms in which to measure and regulate the substantive bounds of the views and conduct that will be permitted in a rightly ordered society, but such a society will also value charity, forbearance, and prudence. Hence rejecting liberalism doesn’t entail that men should be allowed to assault teenagers wearing offensive hats. Most generally, as Aquinas observed, a well-ordered society will not use law to suppress all vices and to prescribe all virtues, except to the extent conducive to the common good. Such a society, after throwing down the idol of Liberty, will allow liberties. But even where the nonliberal order happens to reach the same conclusions as a liberal order, it justifies them in different ways and on different grounds.

My main suggestion is not so much about what should be done, but about the constraints that man’s political nature places on what can be done. Ought implies can. The prerequisite for successful political arrangements is that they must in the long run be compatible with the ineradicable human impulse to live fully in a political community ordered towards the truth. As Joseph de Maistre observed, following Aquinas and Aristotle, “before the formation of political societies, man was not a complete man.” Now this impulse to live fully in the civic community of the Forum, not merely in the half-way life of liberalism, is alarming in many ways, but it cannot be denied altogether. It follows that in one way or another it must be controlled and and channeled into substantively admirable directions; there is no alternative. The hunger for a real politics must, in some way or another, be sated. Better that it be sated through a sacramental feast.

I loved his point about the problem with liberalism making things like civility, tolerance, "The Market", etc. into first order goods. They're bad as masters, tyrannous as idols, but can be effective servants provided they're properly subjugated to the Common Good. No society can truly prescind from the substantive question of what the Common Good looks like.
 

Irish YJ

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No he is (along with many of the other tech barons) a jerkoff for proposing something that would do little to solve any of those issues you listed above and would only serve to further complicate the matter. In some instances it might make things worse. The proposal takes one of the richest parts of and two of the biggest economic drivers of the state (LA and the Bay Area) and makes two states out of those areas. It then takes most of the poorest counties in the State based on poverty rates (the central valley and Imperial county) and clusters those all together along with Orange County and San Diego County to form another State.

As to the water issue, sure water deals can be “cut” but in the inter mountain West good luck cutting any deals for someone else’s water. It no longer happens. LA municipal water owns the rights to water in the Owens Valley. San Francisco owns the rights to the water in the Hetch Hetchy. Those would now be in another State. Take a look at the rest of the water delivery system in California and if you find anything comparable by all means let me know. Sorting out the water rights and environmental protections for the watersheds that supply water to each of the individual water rights for each individual source in each proposed State would in and of its self take decades of litigation and cost hundreds of millions of dollars.

Please feel free to explain to me how any of that is going to address the issues you listed above. With all that in mind if this genius truly wanted to do something constructive he could throw some of his billions into engaging with legislators and the public to foster a constructive dialogue to help develop legislation that would make sensible reforms to CEQA and or Prop 13, which is the root of most of California’s problems in that it promotes the use of one time fees and a boom and bust cycle of public finance. Instead he chooses to toss hand grenades. I get it good public policy isn’t sexy, dramatic, big time or whatever...

California politicians have had a very long time to fix these issues. Perhaps it's better that you explain how relying on the same people doing the same things will fix these issues. One of the primary arguments for splitting the state is to decentralize the power from Sacramento, and killing the old status quo elites. More or less, putting leadership in the new states where they can be closer to, and represent their constituents best interests.

Don't make the water issue out to be some unsolvable problem. A lot of states rely on other states. Hell, Cali already relies on the Colorado river IIRC. It's a problem many states face, and figure out.

Let's be honest, Cali politicians, and politics in general are a mess. Compare state legislatures.... for instance with TX, which is closest in size. TX legislators meet every other year for 90 days. Their legislators are part time, and have day jobs. 75% of them are businessmen, farmers, or in the medical profession. 19% are lawyers. In California, the legislature is essentially in continuous session and only about 18%of the legislators worked in business or medicine before being elected. Most were in government, worked as attorneys, or were community organizers.

So TX politicians spend only 12% of the time and cost that CA politicians do, and have a much better overall fiscal condition, much better infrastructure, much less taxes, less corrupt, and much higher job growth. So tell me again why Cali residents should have so much faith in their government?

https://www.mercatus.org/statefiscalrankings

https://californiapolicycenter.org/the-california-budget-crisis-causes-and-recommendations/
 
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zelezo vlk

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A reminder from our friend Belloc

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">“The state exists for the family, not the family for the state.”<br>— Hilaire Belloc <a href="https://t.co/xp9vK7vxbJ">pic.twitter.com/xp9vK7vxbJ</a></p>— Wrath Of Gnon (@wrathofgnon) <a href="https://twitter.com/wrathofgnon/status/846571317084110849?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 28, 2017</a></blockquote>
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