Political Correctness thread

connor_in

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What are you guys complaining about, exactly? What you're describing is exactly how free speech is supposed to work. Kaepernick is allowed to make any statement he wants and we're all allowed to call him an ignorant ass clown who should shut up.


That's exactly how it's supposed to work. If I disagree with you, I say "I think you should shut up." It doesn't mean I'm trying to exercise State power to make you shut up.

Just to be clear, I did not reference the State in my comment. I was just marking the hypocritical stance many seem to have regarding freedom of speech (what's the old quote "Freedom for me, but not for thee"). Note, however, that there ARE those who do want the State to make other shut up in regards to certain items. Thus, trying to enact PC laws (see Great Britain).
 

connor_in

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I am complaining about people that silence and shame those who disagree with them. I think they have every right to support Kaep's action but I think they should stop telling those that disagree with them on other issues to shut up.

+1
 

yankeehater

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SF is in a tough position. When they cut him because he sucks, people who support him will say it is because he took a so-called stance.
 

wizards8507

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Just to be clear, I did not reference the State in my comment. I was just marking the hypocritical stance many seem to have regarding freedom of speech (what's the old quote "Freedom for me, but not for thee"). Note, however, that there ARE those who do want the State to make other shut up in regards to certain items. Thus, trying to enact PC laws (see Great Britain).
State power is the only context in which "freedom of speech" is relevant.
 

Bishop2b5

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Right, this is my whole problem. They're the first people to jump down Roy Hibbert's throat when he makes a "no homo" joke, the first people that rage against Curt Schilling for being conservative, the first people that complain about Chris Broussard saying "this is how I read and interpret the Bible"...

...then Kaepernick gives a completely ridiculous opinion deserving of scorn, and we're supposed to "respect it." Just sheer idiocy.

The hypocrisy from these people is astounding. They're tolerant of those they agree with and demand everyone else be tolerant of those views too. Things they don't agree with? Umm, tolerance is not needed. Incredibly, disgustingly hypocritical.
 

ACamp1900

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Hating America and all it stands for is a good thing...... ;)
 

irishff1014

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Go that far throwing out the N word just shows how immature people are. But I would hate to be his teammate because he wouldn't hear much from me that's for sure.
 

phgreek

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SF is in a tough position. When they cut him because he sucks, people who support him will say it is because he took a so-called stance.

Does SF have a history of cutting people for reasons outside football? If not, I'd trust the people making personnel decisions to do so on the basis of who makes the team better. Shrug.
 

NDohio

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Does SF have a history of cutting people for reasons outside football? If not, I'd trust the people making personnel decisions to do so on the basis of who makes the team better. Shrug.

And you are thinking logically. If people want to make an issue of it, they will, and logic goes out the window.
 

NDohio

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And oh yeah, does anyone else remember that CK was fined last year for calling an opponent the N word...
 

GowerND11

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That sucks...I don't agree with him, and I don't buy his BS about the American flag = Confederate flag. But he has a right not to be forced to accept any symbol.

I can agree with you that he is making a stretch absolutely. However, I think people are taking his protest too far by saying he is going after the military. He never once said anything negative about them, so that's the same stretch as him equating the two flags.

He had/has the right to do so l, and I don't blame him for taking the opportunity to do it in a public fashion like he did. Kaep is getting blasted by a lot of people for the fact that he was raised by white parents. But his point has never been about himself and any oppression he has faced directly, but rather as an ongoing percieved problem (truthful or not) in the minority community. And let's not act like he wasn't ridiculed for his skin color while his parents were white. That had to be hard for him. What I will say is, perception is reality, therefore the black communities in America do believe the government and police are out to get them. We can't just say, "Oh well that's just silly, they're totally wrong." Instead we need to find a solution for this problem they deal with.
 

IrishLax

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I can agree with you that he is making a stretch absolutely. However, I think people are taking his protest too far by saying he is going after the military. He never once said anything negative about them, so that's the same stretch as him equating the two flags.

He had/has the right to do so l, and I don't blame him for taking the opportunity to do it in a public fashion like he did. Kaep is getting blasted by a lot of people for the fact that he was raised by white parents. But his point has never been about himself and any oppression he has faced directly, but rather as an ongoing percieved problem (truthful or not) in the minority community. And let's not act like he wasn't ridiculed for his skin color while his parents were white. That had to be hard for him. What I will say is, perception is reality, therefore the black communities in America do believe the government and police are out to get them. We can't just say, "Oh well that's just silly, they're totally wrong." Instead we need to find a solution for this problem they deal with.

What I bolded is my problem. He was given a platform after his protest to expand on why he wasn't standing... and after he finished his statement, someone asked him point blank "what specifically would you like to see done"... and he had no answer.

He paused, then said "well, I'd like to see a lot of things changed... ramble ramble ramble..." and then jumped to everyone's favorite cause du jour about police brutality. But even with that, he didn't suggest a single specific law, action, etc. to be put in place. Just that it was all "unjust" and that he would stand after "change."

I have no respect for activists who don't work towards discreet, attainable, thoughtful goals. If you don't have those you're not an activist, you're a complainer.
 

IrishinSyria

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What I bolded is my problem. He was given a platform after his protest to expand on why he wasn't standing... and after he finished his statement, someone asked him point blank "what specifically would you like to see done"... and he had no answer.

He paused, then said "well, I'd like to see a lot of things changed... ramble ramble ramble..." and then jumped to everyone's favorite cause du jour about police brutality. But even with that, he didn't suggest a single specific law, action, etc. to be put in place. Just that it was all "unjust" and that he would stand after "change."

I have no respect for activists who don't work towards discreet, attainable, thoughtful goals. If you don't have those you're not an activist, you're a complainer.

I kind of agree but on the other hand dude's a football player so I'm not super interested in his policy suggestions anyway. He's using his status as a public figure to draw attention to/show solidarity with a broader movement. I'm ok with him deferring to the leaders of the BLM movement as to what exactly should be done.

I certainly don't think he's the best spokesman for the movement and I don't really think he thought out his actions or his responses to questions about them, but I don't necessarily think he should be expected to be the one coming forward with solutions.

e. and yeah going after him for being raised by white parents and thus not black or something is super fucked and kind of just serves to QED his point.

e2. huh. looks like we got rid of the old word filter. Big win for first amendment values on IE.
 
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IrishinSyria

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I have thoughts on this (I go to grad school at UC) and mostly I agree with it but the letter was super hyperbolic for someone in his position. This is a response one of my female friends posted. I leave it here without comment as food for thought:

I am a survivor of sexual and domestic violence. Often, it is important to me to talk about those experiences candidly and openly with almost anyone. But sometimes, and with some people, it is scary and makes me upset to talk about sexual and domestic violence, because sometimes and in some discussions, the way those things are talked about brings me back to the time it was happening to me. It makes it hard to concentrate or engage when I'm being reminded of a really terrible time in my life.

I really appreciate settings that acknowledge when sexual or domestic violence is going to be a topic of conversation before it comes up. I appreciate when friends, professors, and others let me know what's coming, so that I can prepare to engage and concentrate on the topic, knowing that it will be a little harder for me than some other people. Sometimes, I cannot get myself to concentrate. I do not learn, and I cannot engage with the topic. I've been really lucky to be given the opportunity to step out for the day, and to approach the subject at a different time, or in a different setting, when and where I can engage with the issues of domestic and sexual violence rigorously and safely (kind of like how movies tell you there's going to be a lot of blood, because blood makes some people sick--if you're talking about war in class, you don't necessarily need to see a gory movie to engage with a discussion of war). I have never once been excused from the topic. I've never been told I get to ignore it. I've been given the opportunity to approach it differently, and prepare for it more fully, so that I can present my perspective and ideas fully. Sometimes it's as simple as seeing on the syllabus that the topic of the day is "rape," and having access to the materials that will be discussed. Sometimes it's a quick note at the beginning of the discussion. It's just giving me a head's up, and a little bit of freedom in choosing how best to engage.

That's what a trigger warning is, and what it does. When you (or, for instance, an educational institution that I happen to attend) say, blanketly, you do not support trigger warnings, you are saying that you don't care if some people engage rigorously in some topics. You are saying that you don't mind if some perspectives get left out of the discussion, because you don't want to let people prepare for hard discussions. That isn't rigor, it's not "academically freeing," and it's not something to aspire to. It's intellectually and practically lazy.
 

IrishBroker

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What I bolded is my problem. He was given a platform after his protest to expand on why he wasn't standing... and after he finished his statement, someone asked him point blank "what specifically would you like to see done"... and he had no answer.
He paused, then said "well, I'd like to see a lot of things changed... ramble ramble ramble..." and then jumped to everyone's favorite cause du jour about police brutality. But even with that, he didn't suggest a single specific law, action, etc. to be put in place. Just that it was all "unjust" and that he would stand after "change."

I have no respect for activists who don't work towards discreet, attainable, thoughtful goals. If you don't have those you're not an activist, you're a complainer.

Like most other hashtag warriors. Reminds me of #Kony2012... There is nothing noble or courageous by a multi millionaire taking a "stand" in public.

Ask Kap this: How does disrespecting the Anthem help black people?

It doesn't. Because "activists" like this don't REALLY wanna help. Nor do they have solutions. If they did they'd be like Warrick Dunn, or Ray Lewis, or Thomas Davis...etc. Boots on the ground actually getting involved with community. People like Kap want the notoriety of the movement, but don't want to put in the work.

He's a clown. Instead of making this about you, get out there and make it about the black community.
 

IrishinSyria

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The more I think about it, the more I think its weird that people are criticizing Kap for his action. Like athletes take symbolic stands pretty frequently and we usually celebrate them for it without asking how much they've involved themselves in a cause or if they have any solutions for the problem they're pointing to.

John_Carlos%2C_Tommie_Smith%2C_Peter_Norman_1968cr.jpg


ethiopian_medalist_if_i_go_backx_maybe_they_will_kill_me.jpg_1718483346.jpg
 

IrishLax

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The more I think about it, the more I think its weird that people are criticizing Kap for his action. Like athletes take symbolic stands pretty frequently and we usually celebrate them for it without asking how much they've involved themselves in a cause or if they have any solutions for the problem they're pointing to.

John_Carlos%2C_Tommie_Smith%2C_Peter_Norman_1968cr.jpg


ethiopian_medalist_if_i_go_backx_maybe_they_will_kill_me.jpg_1718483346.jpg

I think it's pretty reasonable he's being criticized considering that every American since the dawn of this country is taught to stand at attention and remove their caps during the national anthem. This is a cultural norm and intrinsic part of being American. Not doing show is a sign of disrespect for the country, and has never been tolerated much less celebrated.
 

IrishBroker

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Also, it was a much different time back then.

We are a different nation, who has come a long way, and there is no comparison to back then.

Putting Kap up there with Tommie Smith and Juan Carlos isn't a good comparison. First Olympic athletes don't live like Kap lives, and second, the society those men lived in was far different than ours.

Doesn't mean we are done making progress, but I find the comparisons to movements of the past a little absurd
 

GoIrish41

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Like most other hashtag warriors. Reminds me of #Kony2012... There is nothing noble or courageous by a multi millionaire taking a "stand" in public.

Ask Kap this: How does disrespecting the Anthem help black people?

It doesn't. Because "activists" like this don't REALLY wanna help. Nor do they have solutions. If they did they'd be like Warrick Dunn, or Ray Lewis, or Thomas Davis...etc. Boots on the ground actually getting involved with community. People like Kap want the notoriety of the movement, but don't want to put in the work.

He's a clown. Instead of making this about you, get out there and make it about the black community.

Kap's actions help black people because he has initiated a conversation. He is using his notoriety to draw attention to something he feels is important ... and it is working, at least it seems to be working here in this thread.

I find his protest brave and noble more than clownish. He's not doing it without some risk to his career and he is doing it for a cause that he hopes will help people.
 

IrishinSyria

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I think it's pretty reasonable he's being criticized considering that every American since the dawn of this country is taught to stand at attention and remove their caps during the national anthem. This is a cultural norm and intrinsic part of being American. Not doing show is a sign of disrespect for the country, and has never been tolerated much less celebrated.

Slavery and the National Anthem: The Surprising History Behind Colin Kaepernick’s Protest | FOX40

“I cannot stand and sing the anthem. I cannot salute the flag. I know that I am a black man in a white world.”

That’s not Colin Kaepernick, the San Francisco 49ers quarterback whose refusal to stand during the National Anthem has invited criticism from all corners of the sports world.

That’s Jackie Robinson, beloved baseball pioneer and civil rights activist, writing in his 1972 autobiography, “I Never Had It Made.”

Obviously, Kaepernick's no Robinson, but the sentiment's not new.

In some ways, the defining feature of professional sports in the US is the pageantry and the symbolism. Year in and year out we watch the same games over and over. We infuse them with meaning by placing great weight in the symbols that surround the games: the national anthem, the jerseys, the trophies, etc... Somebody turning that symbolism on its head to express a disfavored view should not simply be tolerated- it should be expected.

Like don't get me wrong: I wore the flag of our country on my sleeve in a war zone. The symbolism attached to the flag and the anthem means a lot to me. I don't agree *at all* with Kaepernick's comparison of Old Glory to the flag flown by traitor slaveholders. But I don't expect him to be a one man think tank. He's famous because symbolism. He used symbolism to make a point. I don't entirely agree with the point, but I don't begrudge the man for taking advantage of the platform he has to express a message that's important to him.
 

NDRock

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Also, it was a much different time back then.

We are a different nation, who has come a long way, and there is no comparison to back then.

Putting Kap up there with Tommie Smith and Juan Carlos isn't a good comparison. First Olympic athletes don't live like Kap lives, and second, the society those men lived in was far different than ours.

Doesn't mean we are done making progress, but I find the comparisons to movements of the past a little absurd

That's true but I'm sure that argument was made when Smith and Carlos made their protest. I don't think their actions were universally appreciated by most Americans.
 

gkIrish

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Kap's actions help black people because he has initiated a conversation. He is using his notoriety to draw attention to something he feels is important ... and it is working, at least it seems to be working here in this thread.

I find his protest brave and noble more than clownish. He's not doing it without some risk to his career and he is doing it for a cause that he hopes will help people.

He has not initiated a conversation about a cause. The conversation you allege he has initiated was already happening.

He has initiated conversation about his actions. Completely different. No one is talking about the underlying issue more because of this. He has almost hijacked the conversation about the underlying issue.
 

IrishBroker

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Kap's actions help black people because he has initiated a conversation. He is using his notoriety to draw attention to something he feels is important ... and it is working, at least it seems to be working here in this thread.

I find his protest brave and noble more than clownish. He's not doing it without some risk to his career and he is doing it for a cause that he hopes will help people.

You're saying that before Kap, this conversation wasn't already happening? With all due respect, that's false.

And his career is basically over. I mean, he lost his starting job to Blaine Gabbert. LOL. In fact, I wouldn't put it past him to have done this to get himself outta San Fran. He has nothing to lose.

I have no issue with someone who wants to change this country and find solutions to problems...but he doesn't have any. Protest is meaningless without solutions and actions.

Get out in the community and do something. Spend the hours.
 

IrishinSyria

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Also, it was a much different time back then.

We are a different nation, who has come a long way, and there is no comparison to back then.

Putting Kap up there with Tommie Smith and Juan Carlos isn't a good comparison. First Olympic athletes don't live like Kap lives, and second, the society those men lived in was far different than ours.

Doesn't mean we are done making progress, but I find the comparisons to movements of the past a little absurd

I (mostly) agree, and don't mind substantive criticism of his message. What troubles me is people attack him personally for making the statement in the way he did. I think we've made tremendous progress as a country. I think we still have a long ways to go. I'm not sure at what point I'd feel comfortable saying for someone else that enough progress has been made that they should just be happy with the current state.

I think viewed in their most positive light, Kaepernick's actions are an invitation to a national discourse. Attacking him for being wealthy and for having white parents (not saying you've done either) is, like, the least encouraging response ever and suggests that maybe we haven't come as far as a country as I'd like to think we have.
 

IrishinSyria

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He has not initiated a conversation about a cause. The conversation you allege he has initiated was already happening.

He has initiated conversation about his actions. Completely different. No one is talking about the underlying issue more because of this. He has almost hijacked the conversation about the underlying issue.

Was it happening in the context of the NFL though? To the extent he's managed to get sports media to consider issues of racial injustice, I'd call that a huge win for public discourse.

To tie this into the UChicago letter, the NFL was operating as a huge safe space where nobody had to think about what was going on outside the stadium.
 

GoIrish41

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You're saying that before Kap, this conversation wasn't already happening? With all due respect, that's false.

And his career is basically over. I mean, he lost his starting job to Blaine Gabbert. LOL. In fact, I wouldn't put it past him to have done this to get himself outta San Fran. He has nothing to lose.

I have no issue with someone who wants to change this country and find solutions to problems...but he doesn't have any. Protest is meaningless without solutions and actions.

Get out in the community and do something. Spend the hours.

I am not saying that.

What have you done today to help solve national problems? Perhaps this is his contribution. It got folks talking more about the topic.
 

gkIrish

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Was it happening in the context of the NFL though? To the extent he's managed to get sports media to consider issues of racial injustice, I'd call that a huge win for public discourse.

To tie this into the UChicago letter, the NFL was operating as a huge safe space where nobody had to think about what was going on outside the stadium.

Was ESPN not talking about race prior to this? That's really what we are talking about, right?

Literally no one is talking about race right now. Everyone is talking about whether what he did was disrespectful or not.
 
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