Police State USA

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We have about 10 million arrests made per year, yet 25% of crimes are solves by arrest meaning 75% of crimes go unsolved and the criminal is still on the loose. With the 10 million arrests, even more police contacts that do not end in arrest or ends in civil citation we are still cherry picking cases and running with a narrative police are overall racist and trigger happy. When I say "cherry picking", the amount of contact per incident is so small there is not a better word of phrase than cherry picking. Do I think police can do better, sure. But I sort of see this like Lumberg getting upset about a cover sheet on a TPS report when my other million TPS reports had a cover letter. Sure the shooting of anyone is tragic no matter the age, and a lot more tragic than a TPS report but people are wanting to overhaul the whole system over a few things they can cherry pick and label as systemic racism or bad policing.

This is misleading. First, please provide your source for these numbers. Second, 75% of crimes going unsolved doesn't mean the criminal is still out there. Many "criminals" are repeat in nature and account for more than one crime. They may get caught for one crime but had 5 others reported but never formally charged.

And what constitutes a "crime" that goes unsolved? Comparing the death of unarmed civilians to missing the cover on a report is not conveying a good message. Maybe there is a better analogy that shows you value human life to a greater degree?
 

Cackalacky2.0

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Your quote was "and bought cheeseburgers on his way to jail." The implication being that he was given special treatment. The PD holding him, having no facilities for feeding him where they were, simply sent someone out for food at a nearby restaurant. Even Snopes says you're misrepresenting what happened.

Your implication would be wrong. I think only on this board could the words “ they bought him cheeseburgers on his way to jail” could be misinterpreted to mean he recieved special treatment when they in fact did buy him a cheeseburger while awaiting extradition. If you think he was treated the way he should have been I agree I would also say if you think that many people killed by cops would have preferred their kids be treated this way instead of being killed I would also agree
 
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Cackalacky2.0

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The entirety of my posts today have centered around how cops are inconsistent with the application of their public services which we have seen can many times end up in what I consider extrajudicial killings and a denial of their due process. Sitting in the rooms listening to people tell their stories leads me to understand this idea in great detail.
 

Blazers46

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This is misleading. First, please provide your source for these numbers. Second, 75% of crimes going unsolved doesn't mean the criminal is still out there. Many "criminals" are repeat in nature and account for more than one crime. They may get caught for one crime but had 5 others reported but never formally charged.

And what constitutes a "crime" that goes unsolved? Comparing the death of unarmed civilians to missing the cover on a report is not conveying a good message. Maybe there is a better analogy that shows you value human life to a greater degree?

Misleading? You are hung on the stat that 75% of crime go without an arrest but you totally dismiss that 10 million people are arrested, meaning there are at least 10 million confrontations that lead to arrest... which does not include the contacts nobody is arrested or the contacts for civil citations such as police stops/tickets/warnings.

My analogy was not comparing TPS reports... it was just saying and implying that we have probably over 10 million cases of police contacts that does not lead a civilian dead but we cherry pick the ones that produce a narrative that police are trigger happy or racist or whatever the flavor is for the day.

I spent 15 years in civil service as a social worker for a variety of agencies working with prisons and police departments so these stats I can just spit with no source... but here is the first thing that popped up on google.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191261/number-of-arrests-for-all-offenses-in-the-us-since-1990/
 

RDU Irish

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The entirety of my posts today have centered around how cops are inconsistent with the application of their public services which we have seen can many times end up in what I consider extrajudicial killings and a denial of their due process. Sitting in the rooms listening to people tell their stories leads me to understand this idea in great detail.


What an absurd standard - all 800,000 cops should be expected to perform to exactly the same standard in every situation? Maybe you could point out any profession or public servant class that is "consistent with the application of their services"? I think you are an engineer or something so I get that you think everything in the world can be a logical process but we aren't breeding RoboCops here.

Your own example of the church shooter shows that complying with police greatly increases your chance of surviving the encounter - STFU and do what you are told even if in the middle of murdering people and you MOST LIKELY walk out of there alive.

I also don't mouth off to food service workers for fear they will spit on my food. Damn sure not mouthing off to a cop who can detain me just for shits.

To be fair - I agree with the concept of police being better trained to de-escalate and grapple more effectively while thinning that herd of power tripping dicks like the guy who roughed up the ND player outside the Linebacker a few years ago. However, IIRC the body cams are supported by po-po b/c more often than not it exonerates them of ridiculous claims from a-holes and d-bags. Wish Live PD was still on - boy that got canned quick after Saint Floyd went down.
 

NEIIrish

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I firmly believe we need to pay cops double or triple what they're currently making in order to attract better people. I also think it starts with basically firing almost all police leadership across the country and having a completely different style of incentive-based policing that isn't about collars/fines/tickets.

While federal agents aren't choir boys and have a whole slew of faults of their own... they don't nearly the incidence rate -- even in armed or dangerous confrontations -- of regular local cops. That comes down to intelligence, training, and career motivation. So I'd start there, and I'd also do what a lot of other countries do where any mental health/erratic behavior call is responded to by a cop AND a trained mental health professional who can deescalate the situation. Pay cops more, change incentives, fire bad leadership, and hire mental health professionals and you'd probably cut police shootings in half within 2-3 years.

You cant really compare the amount of interaction Fed agents have with civilians and make an argument that they have less instances of use of force. The feds aren't interacting at anywhere near a rate like city level cops do. Plus when the feds kill innocent people they burn down whole facilities with woman and children in them so they got that going for them.
 

Blazers46

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The entirety of my posts today have centered around how cops are inconsistent with the application of their public services which we have seen can many times end up in what I consider extrajudicial killings and a denial of their due process. Sitting in the rooms listening to people tell their stories leads me to understand this idea in great detail.

Again... over 10 million people arrested per year, there are about 50 million police contacts per year. Comparatively speaking the incident per contact ratio is so tiny that its almost not a thing. I have been in many rooms where civilians have complained about police mistreatment and their STORY does not even come close to police body and dash cams (which they often do not realize is on) or police survielance. I have been accused of many many things I know I have not done from having sex with inmates/clients to taking people to rooms to beat them up to saying racist things. I am not saying every story is false but every story is just that... a story until you actually have facts tied to it. Hell, now being a retial store owner we have many google reviews and other complaints that were bent and twisted. Every system is flawed in every profession. Every human is flawed. A perfect system will never exist.
 

IrishLax

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You cant really compare the amount of interaction Fed agents have with civilians and make an argument that they have less instances of use of force. The feds aren't interacting at anywhere near a rate like city level cops do. Plus when the feds kill innocent people they burn down whole facilities with woman and children in them so they got that going for them.

Right, which is why I said their incidence rates are lower. I'm not talking raw numbers, I'm talking per interaction. I'll see if I can find the article, it was a couple years ago but it basically said "feds are going after more dangerous, more heavily armed people yet they are killing fewer of them per arrest than local cops."

Also, another weird stat is that urban police actually shoot less people per interaction than rural and suburban police.
 

Wild Bill

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I firmly believe we need to pay cops double or triple what they're currently making in order to attract better people. I also think it starts with basically firing almost all police leadership across the country and having a completely different style of incentive-based policing that isn't about collars/fines/tickets.

While federal agents aren't choir boys and have a whole slew of faults of their own... they don't nearly the incidence rate -- even in armed or dangerous confrontations -- of regular local cops. That comes down to intelligence, training, and career motivation. So I'd start there, and I'd also do what a lot of other countries do where any mental health/erratic behavior call is responded to by a cop AND a trained mental health professional who can deescalate the situation. Pay cops more, change incentives, fire bad leadership, and hire mental health professionals and you'd probably cut police shootings in half within 2-3 years.

Quite a few of my clients are Chicago police officers and I can't remember the last time I saw one that grossed less than 100k. I've had more than a few friends quit their white collar job to work for cpd for both the money and lifestyle. That was a decade ago so I'm not sure it's the same now. My point is they're relatively well paid and many officers are college educated.

It's not possible to patrol Chicago without this type of stuff happening. You can pay them 200k per year or whatever - they're still dealing with violent criminals, limited time, shit political leadership, etc. We have kids out here with guns, drugs, stealing cars, robbing and so on. Don't even ask about our experienced adult criminals. Nobody feels safe in the city anymore and everyone to the right of Elizabeth Warren will admit it.

Chicago is impossible to police - 99 people shot last week and 20 killed. That's one week. Same applies to most US cities so I don't see the point in comparing them to Europe.

We can make believe this problem can be solved. It can't. We don't have the stomach for it.
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ulukinatme

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This boils down to the parents. If your teen is in a gang with a nickname like "Lil Homicide" and carrying around a gun at 3AM and running from police, don't expect a great future. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Nothing good is going on in that scenario, the culture needs to change and parents need to do better.
 

IrishLax

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Quite a few of my clients are Chicago police officers and I can't remember the last time I saw one that grossed less than 100k. I've had more than a few friends quit their white collar job to work for cpd for both the money and lifestyle. That was a decade ago so I'm not sure it's the same now. My point is they're relatively well paid and many officers are college educated.

It's not possible to patrol Chicago without this type of stuff happening. You can pay them 200k per year or whatever - they're still dealing with violent criminals, limited time, shit political leadership, etc. We have kids out here with guns, drugs, stealing cars, robbing and so on. Don't even ask about our experienced adult criminals. Nobody feels safe in the city anymore and everyone to the right of Elizabeth Warren will admit it.

Chicago is impossible to police - 99 people shot last week and 20 killed. That's one week. Same applies to most US cities so I don't see the point in comparing them to Europe.

We can make believe this problem can be solved. It can't. We don't have the stomach for it.
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Given all that, shooting rates per police encounter in the US are higher in suburbs and rural areas than in cities. Which means even if you accept that places like Chicago, etc. are beyond saving in their current format, there are a lot of other police involved shootings that have nothing to do with policing dangerous crime/gang infested cities.
 

NorthDakota

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Given all that, shooting rates per police encounter in the US are higher in suburbs and rural areas than in cities. Which means even if you accept that places like Chicago, etc. are beyond saving in their current format, there are a lot of other police involved shootings that have nothing to do with policing dangerous crime/gang infested cities.

Could some of it be because the police there in dense metros have more police encounters?

Chicago sucks even on its best day. They'd be beyond help if no one got shot lol. Its basically a JV version of NYC without any of the perks and all the negatives.

I'm also curious if it's fair to point to the Feds having better rates. Given the fundamental differences between the two groups and what they do for a living, might it be unfair to compare them to one another?
 

Blazers46

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Given all that, shooting rates per police encounter in the US are higher in suburbs and rural areas than in cities. Which means even if you accept that places like Chicago, etc. are beyond saving in their current format, there are a lot of other police involved shootings that have nothing to do with policing dangerous crime/gang infested cities.

So are you positing police are more likely to shoot at Farmer Jim Bob and White Collar Willy than Gang Banger Leroy?
 

Wild Bill

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Given all that, shooting rates per police encounter in the US are higher in suburbs and rural areas than in cities. Which means even if you accept that places like Chicago, etc. are beyond saving in their current format, there are a lot of other police involved shootings that have nothing to do with policing dangerous crime/gang infested cities.

I live in a comfy high trust community, great police dept, limited crime. I rarely lock my doors (not an invite acamp).

Really don't know where this is going but I doubt anyone raising a fuss about this incident would care if police gunned half of my subdivision down and we all know why.

You want to help cops and keep communities safe, put violent criminals in cages when you catch them. If we can't accept that as a society, we can continue lying to ourselves to feel good while we privately worry about the safety of our parents, wives, kids, sisters etc. So pathetic.
 

IrishLax

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So are you positing police are more likely to shoot at Farmer Jim Bob and White Collar Willy than Gang Banger Leroy?

I don't know if I'd say I'm making an argument here, I'm more just relaying that police shootings per capita is virtually identical rural vs urban -- https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...ities-but-more-in-suburban-and-rural-america/ & https://gunsandamerica.org/story/20/03/16/police-shootings-are-just-as-likely-in-rural-areas/ & https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32145239/ -- and when you then adjust for high crime per capita, arrests per capita, and police per capita in urban areas it means you're more likely to get shot by the local sheriff's deputy in Odessa than you are a more heavily trained + compensated cop in NYC.

We already have some evidence that police reforms in the past 5 years or so in major cities are driving shooting rates down. Meanwhile, they're going up in rural areas. It doesn't really make much sense, but those are the numbers. If I did have a speculative argument to make, I would guess that the increase in drug usage in rural areas coupled with gun ownership rates in rural areas == cops in those areas more likely to have an itchy trigger finger.
 

IrishLax

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I live in a comfy high trust community, great police dept, limited crime. I rarely lock my doors (not an invite acamp).

Really don't know where this is going but I doubt anyone raising a fuss about this incident would care if police gunned half of my subdivision down and we all know why.

You want to help cops and keep communities safe, put violent criminals in cages when you catch them. If we can't accept that as a society, we can continue lying to ourselves to feel good while we privately worry about the safety of our parents, wives, kids, sisters etc. So pathetic.

You say that until your white conservative honor roll student gets gunned down in his driveway for playing with an airsoft gun. And yeah, that did make national news this past week.

I don't know why it's so hard for some people to admit that cops in the United States that use excessive force too often and are too seldom held accountable. There is such emphasis on politicizing the racial and bias aspects of this topic. Cops have to be heroes or they have to be villains. Why can't we just say "cops should probably be using less force and should probably have greater accountability when they fuck up and cops lying to cover for each other needs to stop being an accepted part of policing."

Btw, I started this thread with a video of cops beating the shit out of some white teenagers for barely any reason. I personally started realizing that cops were a problem when some white teenagers at a hangout spot next to where I went to HS had a cop empty a clip into their car for abhorrent crime of.... dining and dashing. Out of control cops are a problem for everyone, it's just one community that is the most vocal about it and the most willing to riot/protest. And that's what drives the narrative.

The sooner people stop bullshitting that policing in this country isn't literally the worst of all first world countries by virtually all metrics (not just police shootings!), the sooner there might actually be some common sense reforms. But I'm not holding my breath.
 

Wild Bill

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You say that until your white conservative honor roll student gets gunned down in his driveway for playing with an airsoft gun. And yeah, that did make national news this past week.

I don't know why it's so hard for some people to admit that cops in the United States that use excessive force too often and are too seldom held accountable. There is such emphasis on politicizing the racial and bias aspects of this topic. Cops have to be heroes or they have to be villains. Why can't we just say "cops should probably be using less force and should probably have greater accountability when they fuck up and cops lying to cover for each other needs to stop being an accepted part of policing."

Btw, I started this thread with a video of cops beating the shit out of some white teenagers for barely any reason. I personally started realizing that cops were a problem when some white teenagers at a hangout spot next to where I went to HS had a cop empty a clip into their car for abhorrent crime of.... dining and dashing. Out of control cops are a problem for everyone, it's just one community that is the most vocal about it and the most willing to riot/protest. And that's what drives the narrative.

The sooner people stop bullshitting that policing in this country isn't literally the worst of all first world countries by virtually all metrics (not just police shootings!), the sooner there might actually be some common sense reforms. But I'm not holding my breath.

I don't really care about cops. Cops are here to impose order of a ruling class I loathe. I have no hatred for individual cops but the people they protect make me sick.

I'm not a conservative and nobody on the left would give a shit about my white sons being victims of crime or police brutality so peddle your bullshit to someone else.
 
N

ND88

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I don't know why it's so hard for some people to admit that cops in the United States that use excessive force too often and are too seldom held accountable. There is such emphasis on politicizing the racial and bias aspects of this topic.

It’s hard because many people are hardened and simply refuse to compromise. A lack of empathy is at the root of injustice. It’s difficult to have empathy for others when (1) you view yourself as unfairly suffering from perceived blame, (2) treat the negative experiences of others with general disdain, and (3) settle on your perspective as the righteous one.
 

NorthDakota

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I don't really care about cops. Cops are here to impose order of a ruling class I loathe. I have no hatred for individual cops but the people they protect make me sick.

I'm not a conservative and nobody on the left would give a shit about my white sons being victims of crime or police brutality so peddle your bullshit to someone else.

Lol wild bill gives zero fucks
 

Rocket89

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It’s hard because many people are hardened and simply refuse to compromise. A lack of empathy is at the root of injustice. It’s difficult to have empathy for others when (1) you view yourself as unfairly suffering from perceived blame, (2) treat the negative experiences of others with general disdain, and (3) settle on your perspective as the righteous one.

Plus, the way to improve things is to dramatically emphasize social programs, education, opportunity, and introduce somewhat radical changes to the duties of police, which includes more accountability. It’s hard to do and expensive but we know half the country has such a shocking lack of empathy, to say nothing of losing politically, that instead you get victim blaming, seething racism, and let’s just throw bad guys in cages.
 

Rocket89

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I'm not a conservative and nobody on the left would give a shit about my white sons being victims of crime or police brutality so peddle your bullshit to someone else.

Thoughts and prayers to your hypothetical white sons deaths.
 

IrishLax

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I don't really care about cops. Cops are here to impose order of a ruling class I loathe. I have no hatred for individual cops but the people they protect make me sick.

I'm not a conservative and nobody on the left would give a shit about my white sons being victims of crime or police brutality so peddle your bullshit to someone else.

Except that situation happened and literally became national news last week -- https://nypost.com/2021/04/15/maryl...lly-shot-by-state-trooper-was-honors-student/

So by "bullshit" you mean "I have a concrete example of that happening from a couple days" ago.
 

IrishLax

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[TWEET]https://twitter.com/NaveedAJamali/status/1383506983450382338?s=20[/TWEET]

Not even your grandparents are safe from bad cops.
 

nvirish

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A few bad seeds in every profession and it should be dealt with. Media has gone completely overboard and gaslighted the police as an army out to kill and beat citizens. Parenting and people having kids that SHOULD not is the #1 reason these issues arise. Can’t do any type of proactive gang work and literally in Chicago we have 10-20 people killed every weekend. Oh and by the way we had a mass shooting where 4 died and 10 were wounded at some gangster party and then story died out 2 days later. Media craves to take any type of police action and cover it without all the details to get people crazy. That is the reality here for those not in Chicago.
 

Bishop2b5

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Plus, the way to improve things is to dramatically emphasize social programs, education, opportunity, and introduce somewhat radical changes to the duties of police, which includes more accountability. It’s hard to do and expensive but we know half the country has such a shocking lack of empathy, to say nothing of losing politically, that instead you get victim blaming, seething racism, and let’s just throw bad guys in cages.

It's not victim blaming to point out that engaging in criminal behavior, resisting arrest, attempting to flee or elude police and fighting with police is a major contributing factor to the vast majority of these incidents. While many of the suggestions you made are valid, you didn't mention anything about the other side's responsibilities and things they can and should do also: stop engaging in criminal behavior, stop resisting arrest or refusing to obey lawful commands of the police, stop running, stop brandishing weapons when engaging with law enforcement, stop resisting arrest, and realize that the court, not the street is where you should make your case if you feel you're being unlawfully arrested. This isn't a one-sided thing.
 

Irish YJ

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First time dipping into political threads in months. Hopefully won't be back for months... Blame it on dipping into "what are you drinking" threads...

trying out new features like numericals...
  1. anyone who doesn't think police reform is needed is silly...
  2. anyone who doesn't think defunding the police stuff is silly....
  3. anyone who turns a blind eye to mathematics that say cops being bad is smaller to people being bad is silly....
People need better police. Police are not near as bad as what crazy people are saying. Sanity please?
 

NorthDakota

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The more I see videos.. the more I think the whole "you need me on that wall" narrative is correct but also some people get caught in it
 

Rocket89

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It's not victim blaming to point out that engaging in criminal behavior, resisting arrest, attempting to flee or elude police and fighting with police is a major contributing factor to the vast majority of these incidents. While many of the suggestions you made are valid, you didn't mention anything about the other side's responsibilities and things they can and should do also: stop engaging in criminal behavior, stop resisting arrest or refusing to obey lawful commands of the police, stop running, stop brandishing weapons when engaging with law enforcement, stop resisting arrest, and realize that the court, not the street is where you should make your case if you feel you're being unlawfully arrested. This isn't a one-sided thing.

You quite literally just spelled out the definition of victim blaming. Here's the deal:

If police are in a situation where they're being fired upon or someone is attacking them with a deadly weapon, and those police respond with deadly force, virtually no one complains about police misconduct and everyone rallies around law enforcement.

In your comment you highlighted 6 areas to blame victims:

1) Criminal behavior
2) Resisting arrest
3) Attempting to flee
4) Fighting with police
5) Obey lawful commands
6) Brandishing weapons

Numbers 1, 2, 3, and 5 almost never require excessive force, and certainly not deadly force. There's more gray area in number 4 and even more in number 6. Lumping in 1, 2, 3, and 5 as justification for a shooting is exactly part of the problem with police. For most of the country understanding this problem is elementary to American justice.

The problem with the Victim Blaming crowd is that when there are accusations of police misconduct there's a reflex to act like law enforcement are always in situations where excessive/deadly force is necessary--and when that runs counter to the facts as we're seeing clearly with Adam Toledo--the next step is to blame the victim even further to a more personal degree (he was a gang member, dealt drugs, used drugs, had a record, where were the parents, etc) and other tropes with racist origins to excuse police misconduct.

Just in the last 2 pages of this thread on Toledo's shooting we have such comments as:

"But his nickname was Lil' Homicide."
"Mother was not mothering."
"Gangbanger."
"Sympathy goes to the officer."
"Not all heroes wear capes."
"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."
"Would've been killed by another gang member anyway."

Zero moderate voices in this thread are saying these things. It's exclusively right-wing posters. It makes you wonder why? If right-wingers wanted to stick to the defense that Chicago is dangerous and it was a difficult situation with Toledo dropping the gun at the last second, that's acceptable. But, they're taken it even further with the vilification of the victim. Again, why?

In many of these cases, the more personal the victim blaming gets the greater the relationship between police misconduct. In the year 2021, if you see a white person using the term "gangbanger" in regards to an incident it's a dead give away where their motivation is w/r/t police and shootings. Americans with empathy don't need to say these things if the facts of the case line up in favor of the police.

If anyone made those above comments and they worked for Notre Dame, they'd likely be fired (oh no cancel culture!).

And yet, the handful of posters who made them will complain about the media going overboard and that it's the media's fault that they're bringing race into it to stoke the fire when in reality you can't find a more politicizing event than excessive victim blaming after shootings. Thick irony. Police reform will continue to be impossible when such a large bloc of voters think victim blaming is okay (even encouraged, especially within police themselves) and that less victim blaming means those against it are the greatest victims of all.
 

drayer54

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[TWEET]https://twitter.com/nycpddea/status/1383560090343514113?s=21[/TWEET]

we should probably disarm our officers on normal traffic stops and challenge their distrust of people...
 
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