Police State USA

Bluto

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I'm sure Jeff Sessions and the civil rights division of the DOJ will be all over this...uhh...yeah

Anyhow, being the parent of a teenage African American male and having a couple of African American male nephews this is the type of shit that makes me lose sleep. A simple fuckin harmless prank and the guy gets executed for it.
 
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drayer54

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This officer is sick. Cops that have You're F'd written on their AR should be fired anyway. Making a drunk man do a dance and firing on him like this is just disgusting.

The worst part was all of the law enforcement defending him, saying this is how he was trained. Really? They train you to make people dance and shoot them if they misstep? I'm glad to see people hammering the Mesa PD online. LEO's can't pull a trigger and end a life every time they are scared.

This guy deserves every ounce of misery he gets. I hope his family collects big bank when they go to court.
 

yankeehater

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Does anyone know police protocol for these situations? There are multiple officers at the scene. You can tell the guy is scared shitless and is struggling to comply because of this. My question is when they have the guy down, hands on back of the head, and legs crossed. Why doesn't one of the officers, with cover, just approach the man and handcuff him? You usually see them bring the suspect in the clear which he seems to be in the hallway and approach, put the knee on his back and handcuff him. Seems the man would be alive if they took that approach.
 

Bishop2b5

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I've dealt with a lot of police officers through my line of work. I believe most are good people trying to do a difficult job as well as they possibly can. I understand that some aren't, and some are simply unsuited for the job. There's a certain type who goes into law enforcement for all the wrong reasons. They're insecure and want to become police officers in order to finally have a feeling of power. These are the dangerous ones. They're the ones who become obsessed with the trappings of the job such as weapons & uniforms, flash their badge at every opportunity, try to set records on the number of traffic tickets issued, go overboard in the whole cop culture thing, and tend to be bullies.

These are the ones you can easily picture standing in front of a mirror practicing their quick draw and imagining themselves as some sort of supercop in a movie. They tend to be young, overly aggressive, and feel like they have to prove themselves. During high stress situations they don't have the temperament, maturity, poise, self-confidence, and common sense to handle things appropriately and tend to overreact or fall back to their "Down on your knees, PUNK!" approach. The video of this shooting screamed this type of officer to me.
 

SonofOahu

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How many orders can a person be reasonably expected to obey before they make a slight mistake? I am not an anti-police person and have generally sided with law enforcement on most of these national stories with two exceptions - the man who was shot in the back in South Carolina (I believe) and Eric Garner. I can understand how reasonable minds could disagree on Garner. To me, it was excessive and there was a complete lack of humanity shown by police officers. It struck me as sadistic. That's just me, though. I don't know the whole story so it's nothing more than one idiot's opinion. This strikes me as the same. It was difficult to watch.

Yeah that's some insane shit. If police order you to do the hokey pokey and you put in the wrong foot in do they have license to kill?

Bad policing is a problem and it's not just a white-vs-black thing. The biggest issue is the injustice and lack of accountability when someone DOES fuck up.

This officer is sick. Cops that have You're F'd written on their AR should be fired anyway. Making a drunk man do a dance and firing on him like this is just disgusting.

The worst part was all of the law enforcement defending him, saying this is how he was trained. Really? They train you to make people dance and shoot them if they misstep? I'm glad to see people hammering the Mesa PD online. LEO's can't pull a trigger and end a life every time they are scared.

This guy deserves every ounce of misery he gets. I hope his family collects big bank when they go to court.

Does anyone know police protocol for these situations? There are multiple officers at the scene. You can tell the guy is scared shitless and is struggling to comply because of this. My question is when they have the guy down, hands on back of the head, and legs crossed. Why doesn't one of the officers, with cover, just approach the man and handcuff him? You usually see them bring the suspect in the clear which he seems to be in the hallway and approach, put the knee on his back and handcuff him. Seems the man would be alive if they took that approach.

The crazy thing is, if the kid had just ignored their instructions, flattened himself on the ground with his arms out, refused to move, and cried himself to sleep, he would probably be alive. The worst thing you can do in any situation where guns are drawn is make hand movements towards your center line. It doesn't matter how innocent the movement is. Moving your hands inward is a green-light for a shooter to shoot.

If you ever find yourself in this situation (regardless of how small of a chance that is) it is better to be charged with resisting arrest and failing to follow police instructions than giving a scared cop the chance to shoot you. Having carried a weapon for work, I can tell you, first hand, what our police-instructors told us during licensing:

1. You shoot to "stop the threat," not to kill someone
2. If you do have to discharge your weapon, you are better off killing the threat, because that's one less witness in your inevitable trial
 

ulukinatme

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More bullshit from Shaun King, stirring up trouble:

shaun_king.jpg


https://www.dailywire.com/node/2575..._content=062316-news&utm_campaign=benshapiro#

The video has been released and shows that the teen tried to fire on the officers before he was shot and killed. Warning, it's a bit graphic:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/m0L0MeZZ3VQ" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Seemed like a routine traffic stop, but it's easy to see why police have to be cautious and how fast things can escalate. It's amazing the officers nor the other guys on the sidewalk weren't hit.
 

IrishLax

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The crazy thing is the tweet is still up and has like 40k retweets -- <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Police in Little Rock, Arkansas shot & killed 17 y/o high school senior Charles Smith, Jr.<br><br>He was a beloved son and student - pulled over by police for a routine traffic stop. Friends say the stop was classic racial profiling<br><br>32 people killed by American police already in 2018. <a href="https://t.co/9OOwRxbQKL">pic.twitter.com/9OOwRxbQKL</a></p>— Shaun King (@ShaunKing) <a href="https://twitter.com/ShaunKing/status/950759105332948992?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 9, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

And here's what Black Lives Matter says about it: https://www.facebook.com/BLMLittleRock/

Insane. Absolutely insane. He literally tried to murder cops and he's the "victim."

Here's a freaking go fund me page full of lies too - https://www.gofundme.com/justice-for-charles-cj-smith
 
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irishff1014

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The crazy thing is the tweet is still up and has like 40k retweets -- <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Police in Little Rock, Arkansas shot & killed 17 y/o high school senior Charles Smith, Jr.<br><br>He was a beloved son and student - pulled over by police for a routine traffic stop. Friends say the stop was classic racial profiling<br><br>32 people killed by American police already in 2018. <a href="https://t.co/9OOwRxbQKL">pic.twitter.com/9OOwRxbQKL</a></p>— Shaun King (@ShaunKing) <a href="https://twitter.com/ShaunKing/status/950759105332948992?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 9, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

And here's what Black Lives Matter says about it: https://www.facebook.com/BLMLittleRock/

Insane. Absolutely insane. He literally tried to murder cops and he's the "victim."

Here's a freaking go fund me page full of lies too - https://www.gofundme.com/justice-for-charles-cj-smith


Shocker....
 

ulukinatme

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The crazy thing is the tweet is still up and has like 40k retweets --

And here's what Black Lives Matter says about it: https://www.facebook.com/BLMLittleRock/

Insane. Absolutely insane. He literally tried to murder cops and he's the "victim."

Here's a freaking go fund me page full of lies too - https://www.gofundme.com/justice-for-charles-cj-smith

I'd like to post the video in the BLM page, since it's not there under the post (there's nothing there actually). I'm pretty sure I could be targeted and doxed if I did that though.

There's also a post on Shaun King's Twitter that talks about Smith's brother. His brother said they were racially profiled, and that Smith didn't do anything. Ridiculous.

Someone has a Go Fund Me up for "Justice" too, looks like one of the family members. https://www.gofundme.com/justice-for-charles-cj-smith
 
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irishff1014

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PG County MD off duty officer shot in front of his house this morning trying to help a neighbor in a domestic. Unfortunately the officer didn’t make it. The worst county in all of MD. This officer did the right thing and died doing it. RIP#realhero#
 
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Buster Bluth

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PG County MD off duty officer shot in front of his house this morning trying to help a neighbor in a domestic. Unfortunately the officer didn’t make it. The worst county in all of MD. This officer did the right thing and died doing it. RIP#realhero#

The loss is tragic but it puzzles me why this is appropriate for a thread about systemic injustice. That man's death isn't some counterpoint.
 

IrishLion

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https://www.yahoo.com/news/unarmed-black-man-stephon-clark-172106486.html

Shot 20 times for the crime of possessing a cell phone in his back yard.

I think this one was a bit more complicated than some of the others we've seen, so I'm not sure I'm 100% buying the bolded until we get a look at the bodycam stuff.

I am curious as to what the officers saw/heard that made them both retreat to the corner of the house the way they did. After they run around the corner to find him in the backyard, they both beeline simultaneously for cover.

They obviously thought he was a threat based on that reaction, but it could have been one of the officers seeing the cellphone and going "oh shit, he's got a gun!" and then they don't think twice about using their own, in error.

OR, maybe the guy told them he had a gun to try and keep them back as he tried to get in the house.

The article said the bodycam footage was released, but I didn't see it. Gonna have to try and find it.

EDIT: There's a more-detailed description on CNN, but still no bodycam footage. The description says that when more cops arrived, they asked what he had, and one cop said he thought the guy had a gun, then another cop says, "hey, mute," and then the bodycam audio gets shut off. That's sketchy as fuck.
 
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Cackalacky

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I think this one was a bit more complicated than some of the others we've seen, so I'm not sure I'm 100% buying the bolded until we get a look at the bodycam stuff.

I am curious as to what the officers saw/heard that made them both retreat to the corner of the house the way they did. After they run around the corner to find him in the backyard, they both beeline simultaneously for cover.

They obviously thought he was a threat based on that reaction, but it could have been one of the officers seeing the cellphone and going "oh shit, he's got a gun!" and then they don't think twice about using their own, in error.

OR, maybe the guy told them he had a gun to try and keep them back as he tried to get in the house.

The article said the bodycam footage was released, but I didn't see it. Gonna have to try and find it.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This is cold blooded execution. They shot <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/StephonClark?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#StephonClark</a> 20 times, didn’t call an ambulance, & sat asking each other if they were okay.<br><br>Meanwhile an unarmed Clark died in his own backyard.&#55357;&#56851;<br><br>WARNING GRAPHIC VIDEO<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BlackLivesMatter?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#BlackLivesMatter</a> <br>[video via <a href="https://twitter.com/KCRAMiller?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@KCRAMiller</a>]<a href="https://t.co/xKLNWczd5d">pic.twitter.com/xKLNWczd5d</a></p>— Qasim Rashid, Esq. (@MuslimIQ) <a href="https://twitter.com/MuslimIQ/status/976605306145902592?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 21, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Just posting becasue it was linked in the tweet. I have my own opinion and am not agreeing with the tweeter's comment. Watch at your own discretion. It is awful.
 

IrishLax

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That's a quick "gun... gun gun gun!" --> shots fired

My whole issue with shit like this is at what point:
1. Were they in any immediate danger.
2. Sure that he was armed and posed a threat to them/others.

You should not be allowed to use lethal force unless one of those conditions is met. Period. This whole thing where cops are allowed to operate with a shoot-first mentality as soon as they imagine a threat is insane...
 

ACamp1900

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My whole issue with shit like this is at what point:
1. Were they in any immediate danger.
2. Sure that he was armed and posed a threat to them/others.

You should not be allowed to use lethal force unless one of those conditions is met. Period. This whole thing where cops are allowed to operate with a shoot-first mentality as soon as they imagine a threat is insane...

I mean, this...

The whole issue of "police" is used as a football and taken out of context far too much but bottom line is there are enough cases of, 'shot x times while unarmed' happening that it should be easy to address THIS.
 

Bishop2b5

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My whole issue with shit like this is at what point:
1. Were they in any immediate danger.
2. Sure that he was armed and posed a threat to them/others.

You should not be allowed to use lethal force unless one of those conditions is met. Period. This whole thing where cops are allowed to operate with a shoot-first mentality as soon as they imagine a threat is insane...

The standard is that they have cause to reasonably believe either or both of those conditions exist, whether they actually do or not.
 

IrishLax

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The standard is that they have cause to reasonably believe either or both of those conditions exist, whether they actually do or not.

That is literally the entire point I'm making. They continually skate on "reasonably believing" they're in danger when they aren't and that's how unarmed people routinely end up shot.

The rules of engagement need to change to the point where it's not standard operating procedure to shoot a dude holding a cellphone because you imagined it was a gun.
 

Bishop2b5

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That is literally the entire point I'm making. They continually skate on "reasonably believing" they're in danger when they aren't and that's how unarmed people routinely end up shot.

The rules of engagement need to change to the point where it's not standard operating procedure to shoot a dude holding a cellphone because you imagined it was a gun.

Nobody wants to see a kid playing with a water pistol or a guy holding a cell phone or reaching for his wallet get shot. I see both sides of it. It's dark, you're responding to a call about an armed person or someone in the act of committing a crime, and you have to make a split second decision where making the wrong one gets you or someone else killed. It's not easy. There are lots of things to take into account under less than ideal circumstances in the blink of an eye. There are LEO's with a shoot first mentality and that needs to change. There are lots of people out there who don't understand that when the cops tell them to freeze or show them their hands, acting aggressively, arguing, pointing a cell phone at them, making sudden moves, or running aren't the way to go. That needs to change too.
 
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koonja

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Nobody wants to see a kid playing with a water pistol or a guy holding a cell phone or reaching for his wallet get shot. I see both sides of it. It's dark, you're responding to a call about an armed person or someone in the act of committing a crime, and you have to make a split second decision where making the wrong one gets you or someone else killed. It's not easy. There are lots of things to take into account under less than ideal circumstances in the blink of an eye. There are LEO's with a shoot first mentality and that needs to change. There are lots of people out there who don't understand that when the cops tell them to freeze or show them their hands, acting aggressively, arguing, pointing a cell phone at them, making sudden moves, or running aren't the way to go. That needs to change too.

It's to the point where "how to respond/not respond" to an officer needs to be part of middle/high school class. Not a whole class, but on a week where they have time to cover "how not to be a moron" in health class or something.
 

IrishLax

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Nobody wants to see a kid playing with a water pistol or a guy holding a cell phone or reaching for his wallet get shot. I see both sides of it. It's dark, you're responding to a call about an armed person or someone in the act of committing a crime, and you have to make a split second decision where making the wrong one gets you or someone else killed. It's not easy. There are lots of things to take into account under less than ideal circumstances in the blink of an eye.

The question I always come back to is why does no other western country have such trigger happy cops? I think it's part training, part situational (i.e. they encounter more civilians with guns than cops do in other countries), and part legal (i.e. they know that they can shoot first and almost always find a way to justify it).

There are LEO's with a shoot first mentality and that needs to change. There are lots of people out there who don't understand that when the cops tell them to freeze or show them their hands, acting aggressively, arguing, pointing a cell phone at them, making sudden moves, or running aren't the way to go. That needs to change too.

It probably takes a combination of revised training, revised laws on use of force, and community outreach to start fixing the problem. Either that or we need more advanced/effective technology for non-lethal forms of incapacitation that are utilized first.
 
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koonja

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The question I always come back to is why does no other western country have such trigger happy cops? I think it's part training, part situational (i.e. they encounter more civilians with guns than cops do in other countries), and part legal (i.e. they know that they can shoot first and almost always find a way to justify it).



It probably takes a combination of revised training, revised laws on use of force, and community outreach to start fixing the problem. Either that or we need more advanced/effective technology for non-lethal forms of incapacitation that are utilized first.

Because no other western country has such trigger happy citizens.
 

IrishLion

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they know that they can shoot first and almost always find a way to justify it

It's actually astounding how far the "I felt threatened" defense can take even an average citizen that hires a good lawyer, even outside of "stand your ground" states... even crazier when that phrase comes from an officer of the law, who gets the benefit of the doubt in the eyes of the system more than anyone.
 
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Cackalacky

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The question I always come back to is why does no other western country have such trigger happy cops? I think it's part training, part situational (i.e. they encounter more civilians with guns than cops do in other countries), and part legal (i.e. they know that they can shoot first and almost always find a way to justify it).
We also have essentially militarized the police.
The 1033 Program essentaily provides police with military grade weapons.
President Obama signed Executive Order 13688 on May 2015 limiting and prohibiting certain types of equipment.[4][5] On 28 August 2017 President Trump rolled back Obama's Executive Order.

The perception of police operating in de facto war zones in many urban areas also adds to it. The police across the country, through training have developed a culture to feel they are in a war zone and treat it as such. Even it if it could not be further from the truth.


It probably takes a combination of revised training, revised laws on use of force, and community outreach to start fixing the problem. Either that or we need more advanced/effective technology for non-lethal forms of incapacitation that are utilized first.
This is part of the things we are making a change here in Charleston through the Illumination Project. Cops are altering their presence in the neighborhoods and residents are actually responding well.
 

Bishop2b5

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Lax & Koon both make very good points, especially about the community outreach and classes teaching people how to interact with the cops. A couple of years ago, police, prosecutors and FBI agents in Mobile held classes to do just that. The comments afterwards by many of the teens who attended made it clear that they got a lot out of it and had gained a whole new perspective on civilian/police interactions. There are now several programs nationwide that teach young people how to interact with law enforcement. There needs to be a LOT more of this or even making it mandatory in schools. Would save a lot of lives on both sides.

The following three articles are short and very good reads.

How to avoid getting shot by cops: Federal, local officials roll out youth program | AL.com

https://www.justice.gov/usao-mdga/p...cessful-tips-youth-law-enforcement-encounters

Teach your kids how to behave around cops: Yes sir, no sir and leave the arguments for later | AL.com
 

wizards8507

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Serious question and (probably) not related to whether this was an appropriate use of force... Is it normal in California for local PD to deploy damn helicopters in response to a B&E?
 

IrishLion

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Serious question and (probably) not related to whether this was an appropriate use of force... Is it normal in California for local PD to deploy damn helicopters in response to a B&E?

That's kind of what I was wondering.

It only makes sense if it was an ongoing issue, and/or if someone had reported actaully seeing a man in the act of breaking windows with some sort of weapon, at which point you want to find the potentially armed-and-dangerous party ASAP.

But around my parts, just across the river from a major city, they only call the helicopter if there is a legit manhunt going on, aka someone wanted for violent crimes against another person.
 

wizards8507

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That's kind of what I was wondering.

It only makes sense if it was an ongoing issue, and/or if someone had reported actaully seeing a man in the act of breaking windows with some sort of weapon, at which point you want to find the potentially armed-and-dangerous party ASAP.

But around my parts, just across the river from a major city, they only call the helicopter if there is a legit manhunt going on, aka someone wanted for violent crimes against another person.
Jeeze. I'm pretty sure Connecticut has exactly one law enforcement helicopter. It's owned by the state police, not local PD, and hardly ever flies. Bizarre to me that a local police department would need such a weapon.
 
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