Orlando attack - terrorism suspected

[wizards8507]

My point is, if you are the seller of a firearm, how do you find out if the buyer has been adjudicated to be mentally deficient if the government/background check cannot look at the health records of the purchaser. I agree not all mental health illness necessarily means you cannot purchase a firearm. The term is to broad. I think we can agree though that there are types of mental health illnesses that should eliminate a person from owning a firearm. How do we allow the owner to be aware of the mental health of a purchaser?

The keyword is "adjudicated." Those are legal records, not medical records.

 

[Monk]

The keyword is "adjudicated." Those are legal records, not medical records.

I understand, I just believe there are individuals that should not own a firearm because of their mental health status and not all of that information is in legal records.

 

[BobbyMac]

Understood. I'm not suggesting your point is invalid. I'm just saying that the other red flags that would have shown up during a pysch eval/background check would have prevented the gun sale in other countries with stricter gun laws.

And I agree with red flags. I personally wouldn't mind some tweaks to the laws but I don't like the slippery slope that giving an inch to ultra progressives might expose everyone to down the road.

I wish this was a States' issue so people that hated guns could go to gun free areas like Chicago to live safely with peace of mind. (I keed I keed)

You'd find me in Wyoming where everyone buys guns by the 12 pack... and I haven't owned a gun in years.

 

[wizards8507]

Disney WARNED The FBI About Orlando Terrorist In April. So Why Did They Drop The Ball? | Daily Wire

SIAP, but it appears that Disney has better security than the FBI.

 

[phgreek]

This discussion of further managing, throttling, controlling rights particularly those of privacy and gun ownership is at best contentious. Add in the inability of a government to simply collaborate among branches and use tools they have effectively, as well as obvious issues regarding protected classes and how that hamstrings federal agents....and I'm thinking the outrage lives in the wrong place these days.

I'm kinda tired of looking at proposals flung around as common sense in response to gun violence that wouldn't have changed a thing in the case at hand, nor in the future.

The ONLY thing I can approach with any kind of serious consideration is a discussion of civilian capacity (type of gun is a fruitless discussion). And I think the capacity limit concept is doomed. Extending a magazine is a 3rd grade science fair project. So is a magazine capacity limit, and an overall magazine limit going to do anything...really? I could see my way clear to looking at proposals, but I would suggest such laws would be rendered irrelevant inside six months by some johnny jihad online manual...or jimmy's backwoods website. That raises the legitimate question...who then does the limit impact?

 

[phgreek]

Disney WARNED The FBI About Orlando Terrorist In April. So Why Did They Drop The Ball? | Daily Wire

SIAP, but it appears that Disney has better security than the FBI.

unless we are talking about Gators...

 

[Monk]

This discussion of further managing, throttling, controlling rights particularly those of privacy and gun ownership is at best contentious. Add in the inability of a government to simply collaborate among branches and use tools they have effectively, as well as obvious issues regarding protected classes and how that hamstrings federal agents....and I'm thinking the outrage lives in the wrong place these days.

I'm kinda tired of looking at proposals flung around as common sense in response to gun violence that wouldn't have changed a thing in the case at hand, nor in the future.

The ONLY thing I can approach with any kind of serious consideration is a discussion of civilian capacity (type of gun is a fruitless discussion). And I think the capacity limit concept is doomed. Extending a magazine is a 3rd grade science fair project. So is a magazine capacity limit, and an overall magazine limit going to do anything...really? I could see my way clear to looking at proposals, but I would suggest such laws would be rendered irrelevant inside six months by some johnny jihad online manual...or jimmy's backwoods website. That raises the legitimate question...who then does the limit impact?

The only obvious solution then is to ban the internet.

 

[GoIrish41]

My view of how things are in this country is based on principle and statistics. Principles and statistics don't change because "my black friend Steve is a kewl dude."

Also, I never brought up race. Not once.

Principle? I got mine so fuck everyone else? Perhaps you should look at incarceration statistics and poverty rates and school conditions, to name a few. When you speak about those, you generally start sounding a little self righteous and ignore that the path to "success" for some is full of roadblocks and is different than yours.

You didn't bring up race, but you did bring up fatherless inner city kids. So who were you talking about?

 

[phgreek]

The only obvious solution then is to ban the internet.

I would not be shocked to see that proposal...

 

[potownhero]

There have been 1000 mass shootings since Sandy Hook. Best I can tell, two of them were at the hands of Muslims. Yet, we have a massive Muslim terrorist problem, and the 998 others were just random unstable crazies. Coincidently, both of the mass shootings at the hands of Mulsims have happened since Trump -- the Republican candidate for President of the United States -- has made it okay by example to alienate and denegrate people by their race/religion.

Check you stats. I can think of 3 just off the top of my head - Chatanooga Recruiting Center, San Bernardino, and Orlando.

 

[phgreek]

Principle? I got mine so fuck everyone else? Perhaps you should look at incarceration statistics and poverty rates and school conditions, to name a few. When you speak about those, you generally start sounding a little self righteous and ignore that the path to "success" for some is full of roadblocks and is different than yours.

You didn't bring up race, but you did bring up fatherless inner city kids. So who were you talking about?

fatherless inner city kids???

 

[phgreek]

Check you stats. I can think of 3 just off the top of my head - Chatanooga Recruiting Center, San Bernardino, and Orlando.

Fort Hood

 

[BobbyMac]

Not sure what you are insinuating. I grew up poor, living in a predominantly black neighborhood and witnessed first hand how black people were treated differently. It was hard for me to reverse my fortunes in life. Many of my friends when I was a kid had it much tougher because they are black. A few of them are dead now, others are in prison. Those who are left are living in the same depressed neighborhood we grew up in. Trapped in poverty is not an after school special. It's a way of life for far too many people.

I wasn't insinuating anything about you specifically. I just said I lived it, I didn't see it on tv from the burbs. Odds are I've seen a lot more of it because I'm older and from a worse area... unless as an Eagle fan you grew up in Camden, NJ then you would have an idea of what Gary, IN is like.

 

[GoIrish41]

I wasn't insinuating anything about you specifically. I just said I lived it, I didn't see it on tv from the burbs. Odds are I've seen a lot more of it because I'm older and from a worse area... unless as an Eagle fan you grew up in Camden, NJ then you would have an idea of what Gary, IN is like.

Harrisburg PA and we are the same age.

 

[wizards8507]

Principle? I got mine so fuck everyone else? Perhaps you should look at incarceration statistics and poverty rates and school conditions, to name a few. When you speak about those, you generally start sounding a little self righteous and ignore that the path to "success" for some is full of roadblocks and is different than yours.

Of course the path is harder for some than for others. It's called real life. I'm not going to play in the NBA in my lifetime and I just need to accept that.

You didn't bring up race, but you did bring up fatherless inner city kids. So who were you talking about?

Fatherless inner city kids, regardless of race. Everything else being equal, a fatherless inner city white kid is just as disadvantaged as a fatherless kid of any other color.

 

[potownhero]

Ugh...you exhaust me.

Someone who has on their record a drunk-driving accident with a 0.38 BAC, hospital record of detox, psychiatrist record, and AA attendance record does not require a PI to figure this shit out.

Just out of curiosity, would you be OK with gov't suspending welfare and other government assistance through this method too?

 

[potownhero]

Of course the path is harder for some than for others. It's called real life. I'm not going to play in the NBA in my lifetime and I just need to accept that.


Fatherless inner city kids, regardless of race. Everything else being equal, a fatherless inner city white kid is just as disadvantaged as a fatherless kid of any other color.

Or even more so since there are fewer programs designed to specifically help him/her.

 

[GoIrish41]

Of course the path is harder for some than for others. It's called real life. I'm not going to play in the NBA in my lifetime and I just need to accept that.

You not getting to play in the NBA, and someone not being able to put food on the table to feed their kids is a million miles apart. Should they just accept that they are never going to escape their conditions?

Fatherless inner city kids, regardless of race. Everything else being equal, a fatherless inner city white kid is just as disadvantaged as a fatherless kid of any other color.

You are dead wrong about this. It wasn't that way in 1975 and its not that way today.

 

[connor_in]

Messaging DOES matter, especially if you're an American president. Talk among US political and religious leaders about a de facto "war against Islam" alienates our allies in the region and is used as fodder for propaganda by all kinds of terrorist groups.

All of Trump's bluster and refusal to be "politically correct" is just another way of saying he has virtually no diplomatic skills with culturally sensitive issues and will almost certainly get Americans killed if elected.

Would you be OK with him calling out "radical Muslim extremists", if at the same time he praised and called out to moderate Muslim people of faith to meet and discuss ways to help with the cancer in their midst?

Trying to find a middle ground that advances the fight against the terrorists and at the same time show the moderate Muslims in the spotlight working to make things better with us.

 

[BobbyMac]

Principle? I got mine so fuck everyone else? Perhaps you should look at incarceration statistics and poverty rates and school conditions, to name a few. When you speak about those, you generally start sounding a little self righteous and ignore that the path to "success" for some is full of roadblocks and is different than yours.

You didn't bring up race, but you did bring up fatherless inner city kids. So who were you talking about?

And who is responsible for all the above? White people or Progressive/Socialist Democrats?

LBJ tore the American Family apart when he replaced the Father with the State. Who's politically controlled the urban areas for the past 50 years? Which cities have they improved? The urban plantation is a real thing. So is the prison pipeline, both governmental infrastructure that keeps urban poor in a constant state of illiteracy, poverty & incarceration. I hate today's racist Democratic Party for what it has done to poor people.

 

[connor_in]

And I agree with red flags. I personally wouldn't mind some tweaks to the laws but I don't like the slippery slope that giving an inch to ultra progressives might expose everyone to down the road.

I wish this was a States' issue so people that hated guns could go to gun free areas like Chicago to live safely with peace of mind. (I keed I keed)

You'd find me in Wyoming where everyone buys guns by the 12 pack... and I haven't owned a gun in years.

Dude, we got like 10 or so in the house. Of course you have to put the qualifying word "Nerf" in front of the word gun.

 

[wizards8507]

You not getting to play in the NBA, and someone not being able to put food on the table to feed their kids is a million miles apart. Should they just accept that they are never going to escape their conditions?

Give me a fucking break. You can boil a couple of eggs for less than 50 cents. If you can't feed your kids, they should be taken away from you and you should be locked up for child abuse.

You are dead wrong about this. It wasn't that way in 1975 and its not that way today.

White privilege, right.

 

[dshans]

Think of how expensive that is. I already laid out earlier in this thread that it would cost me $400 to get through the existing paperwork to purchase and transport a handgun in the state of Connecticut. Without passing a law banning firearms, they've effectively eliminated my second Amendment right.

Is this a good time to drone on and on with my sad, sad sob story with a spreadsheet of costs (on top of the purchase price) incurred when I purchased a car in FL after leaving Minneapolis?

Your second amendment rights were not eliminated. Not by a long shot.

[See what I did there?]

Your attempt to equate licensing and training fees to a poll tax is the height of false equivalency.

 

[TDHeysus]

now there was an attack in the UK, public official shot and stabbed.

 

[BobbyMac]

Give me a fucking break. You can boil a couple of eggs for less than 50 cents. If you can't feed your kids, they should be taken away from you and you should be locked up for child abuse.
.

Before you get boo'd off stage let me actually agree with you.

ANYONE can feed their kids in America. You can either afford to do it on your own or the government will MORE than cover it. If your kid isn't eating, it's the parent/guardians fault.

 

[ND NYC]

still wondering why no police/swat entered that nightclub (especially in the very beginning) for 3 hours during an "active shooter" situation.
is this the way they police/swat are trained?
if so, by not entering seems they "created" a hostage situation (guys walking around reshooting people on the floor, making phone calls to all sorts of people)
if this were a school/mall would this be the appropriate response?
any cops on here shed light on how you are trained in "active shooter" situations?
I always thought it was to never delay and go right in and go after the "active shooter".

 

[ACamp1900]

Has it been confirmed that it indeed took 3 hours? I originally just blew that off as 'no way'...

 

[TDHeysus]

now there was an attack in the UK, public official shot and stabbed.

British politician Jo Cox dies after attack - CNN.com

 

[Ndaccountant]

still wondering why no police/swat entered that nightclub (especially in the very beginning) for 3 hours during an "active shooter" situation.
is this the way they police/swat are trained?
if so, by not entering seems they "created" a hostage situation (guys walking around reshooting people on the floor, making phone calls to all sorts of people)
if this were a school/mall would this be the appropriate response?
any cops on here shed light on how you are trained in "active shooter" situations?
I always thought it was to never delay and go right in and go after the "active shooter".

SOP from everything I have read. Essentially, they had him on the phone and did not know if the place was rigged with explosives or not. When it became evident that they could get in with an acceptable amount of safety, they did. Honestly, makes sense to me.

 

[Legacy]

My point is, if you are the seller of a firearm, how do you find out if the buyer has been adjudicated to be mentally deficient if the government/background check cannot look at the health records of the purchaser. I agree not all mental health illness necessarily means you cannot purchase a firearm. The term is to broad. I think we can agree though that there are types of mental health illnesses that should eliminate a person from owning a firearm. How do we allow the owner to be aware of the mental health of a purchaser?

Do you believe that a person with any level of mental health issues, from intellectual disabiliy to schizophrenia should be able to own a firearm? If you don't how do you find out if a person has such mental illness?

Wizard makes some valuable distinctions with the emphasis on due process, which is reserved for those patients who may need involuntary holds or hospitalization - temporary or permanent - due to mental incompetence or danger to themselves or others. The vast majority of people with possible mental health issues enter the health care system with acute changes (e.g. ER) or are seen through their primary physician for their complaints (anxiety, depression, behavior changes).

Much of the initial psych screening relies on self-reporting, e.g. "Have you thought of killing yourself or others?" and cooperation with the screening tools for assessment. Lengthy assessment questionnaires are best done in a specialist's practice and also require cooperation. Where I live, psych appointments for non-emergent situations may be six months out. All that documentation is privileged and protected.

So, if you have a state law that merely says that handgun sales are prohibited to people with mental illness without any specification, that can be worthless to provide a seller with guidance or put the person in a database unless they have committed a violent crime. With Internet gun sales, the seller does not even have to look the buyer in the eye.

At gun shows, the only criteria is "[a]ny person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of the State where he resides as long as he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms". No waiting period or criminal background check in databases even if those databases included someone who was adjudicated with uncontrolled paranoid schizophrenia with a finding that they are a danger to others with homicidal ideations.