Orlando attack - terrorism suspected

[ACamp1900]

I'm all for making things more reasonable and responsible with our gun control, our voting practices, our immigration, all of it. One thing on guns though is the reality of the situation (I have the same attitude with portions of our immigration enforcement for the record) , making it illegal or much more difficult for your average Joe American to obtain a certain type of gun does nothing to stop a black market with a demand for "X" and it's sure as hell not going to stop the Anarchist Cookbook type from building their own 'assault rifles' for a couple hundred bucks at their local hardware stores. I'm all for most of these modern background check ideas and such, I really am, I just don't get how the reaction of so many is "Well that would've stopped this from happening"... that's fantasy at this point.

 

[wizards8507]

People like you are the worst. Following that logic, you should probably only offer opinions on accounting and Disney World.

You don't need to be an expert on something to have an opinion on it, but there's a difference between "not an expert" and "completely incorrect." You don't need to be a particle physicist to have an opinion about nuclear energy, but that doesn't mean "uranium turns humans into giraffes" is a valid opinion. That's the intellectual equivalent of saying "this man killed all these people with a military-style weapon and an extended clip." It's factually incorrect and utter nonsense.

 

[wizards8507]

No, you aren't. In multiple threads you have made that clear. But can you give me a legitimate reason to own a fully automatic AR15?

Why does this exist for civilians?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jxeCukiFNBM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Lmao. Asks for a legitimate reason to own a fully automatic AR15. Posts a video titled "AR-15 60 round extended mag rapid fire (semi auto)".

And yes, I can give you a legitimate reason. "Just in case."

 

[phork]

Lmao. Asks for a legitimate reason to own a fully automatic AR15. Posts a video titled "AR-15 60 round extended mag rapid fire (semi auto)".

And yes, I can give you a legitimate reason. "Just in case."

Man you are a picky mother fucker. I asked the question, which you have no legit answer to and then posted a video and asked another question about why this exists?

2 separate issues, 2 separate questions. Try to keep up.

 

[wizards8507]

How do you interpret the "well regulated" and the "militia" parts of the second amendment?

If you read any of the founding fathers' writings and thoughts on the matter, it's very clear.

1. Well-regulated does not mean "controlled," it means "trained." In other words, the government's job is not to limit who can have guns and what kind of guns, but to train people how to use them safely and responsibly.

2. The entire population (edit: males of a certain age) was supposed to be the militia.

Remember, there wasn't supposed to be a standing army at the time the Bill of Rights was passed. Without a full-time military, it was imperative that the people as a whole were well trained and organized to defend their country as a citizen-army (i.e. a militia) if the need arose.

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."

- James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789

If they had just kept the original phrasing and not tried to get cute with their compound-complex sentence structure, there'd be no debate.

 

[NorthDakota]

Man you are a picky mother fucker. I asked the question, which you have no legit answer to and then posted a video and asked another question about why this exists?

2 separate issues, 2 separate questions. Try to keep up.

It's not his fault you are woefully misinformed/dumb on the subject.

 

[woolybug25]

If you read any of the founding fathers' writings and thoughts on the matter, it's very clear.

1. Well-regulated does not mean "controlled," it means "trained." In other words, the government's job is not to limit who can have guns and what kind of guns, but to train people how to use them safely and responsibly.

2. The entire population (edit: males of a certain age) was supposed to be the militia.

Remember, there wasn't supposed to be a standing army at the time the Bill of Rights was passed. Without a full-time military, it was imperative that the people as a whole were well trained and organized to defend their country as a citizen-army (i.e. a militia) if the need arose.

"It was very clear... Let me tell you my interpretation of it..."

 

[woolybug25]

It's not his fault you are woefully misinformed/dumb on the subject.

This is an unsolicited insult and not needed. If you can't discuss a topic without blindly insulting someone without adding substance, then maybe you shouldn't debate.

 

[ACamp1900]

This is an unsolicited insult and not needed. If you can't discuss a topic without blindly insulting someone without adding substance, then maybe you shouldn't debate.

You have a stupid head and your mom's feet smell like cabbage.

 

[ozzman]

An AR-15 is not "military-style," nor is it an "assault rifle." The only thing they have in common with the millitary-issue M4 carbine is that their silhouettes kind of look similar. Military M4s feature selective fire, with a switch that makes them fully automatic. That means you can press and hold the trigger while bullets fly out. Consumer AR-15s are semi-automatic. That means one trigger pull per shot.
QUOTE]

99% of military M4/M16 are not fully auto, either. The Rangers I deployed with had fully auto, but everyone else has 3 round burst (three settings on the switch, safe, semi, burst). No one uses the burst or auto in real world situations, though because it serves no purpose because it pulls the barrel way off target.

 

[woolybug25]

You have a stupid head and your mom's feet smell like cabbage.

At least it was her feet you smelled first.

 

[wizards8507]

"It was very clear... Let me tell you my interpretation of it..."

I'm digging for quotes now. You'll see one already included in my regular post.

 

[Irish Insanity]

This is an unsolicited insult and not needed. If you can't discuss a topic without blindly insulting someone without adding substance, then maybe you shouldn't debate.

Wait, so it's ok to blindly insult someone as long as you add substance to the discussion?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

[GoIrish41]

If you read any of the founding fathers' writings and thoughts on the matter, it's very clear.

1. Well-regulated does not mean "controlled," it means "trained." In other words, the government's job is not to limit who can have guns and what kind of guns, but to train people how to use them safely and responsibly.

2. The entire population (edit: males of a certain age) was supposed to be the militia.

Remember, there wasn't supposed to be a standing army at the time the Bill of Rights was passed. Without a full-time military, it was imperative that the people as a whole were well trained and organized to defend their country as a citizen-army (i.e. a militia) if the need arose.

1. Weird they didn't just say "well trained" instead of a word that means something else

2. Why didn't they make firearms mandatory for adult males, then?

Well there is a standing Army now, so ....

 

[woolybug25]

Wait, so it's ok to blindly insult someone as long as you add substance to the discussion?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

No, but it's not a blind insult then. Things get heated in arguments, sure. But if somebody is not even adding comments regarding their opinion, then they are simply antagonizing.

 

[phork]

It's not his fault you are woefully misinformed/dumb on the subject.

I am dumb because I made an error in interchanging clip with magazine? Maybe I am misinformed because that shit doesn't happen in my country I don't have to deal with it. Maybe you guys are just used to the CNN headline scrolls of "Another shooting!" And semantics such as clip vs magazine and "well its only semi-auto not fully (But buy the fully auto trigger cartridge and get a 10 pack of extended magazines for free!)

When you 2 gentlemen have actual facts, or want to be in a constructive debate please bring some information to the table and teach us what we are missing. Because all I see right now is a lot of dead people, no reason to have a gun like this and NRA shills clouding the issue.

What is your solution to this problem? As a gun afficiando what do you propose be done about this. Should civilians have access to 60 round magazines? Should you be able to pay $500 (probably less now) to turn a semi-auto into a full auto? Stop giving me bullshit and give me facts, give me concrete information to inform me. Stop with the cold dead hands routine. Its ok, I'll wait. Counting the bodies piling up.

 

[ACamp1900]

I am dumb because I made an error in interchanging clip with magazine?

I thought is was because you're Canadian.

 

[ulukinatme]

I'm all for making things more reasonable and responsible with our gun control, our voting practices, our immigration, all of it. One thing on guns though is the reality of the situation, making it illegal or much more difficult for your average Joe American to obtain a certain type of gun does nothing to stop a black market with a demand for "X" and it's sure as hell not going to stop the Anarchist Cookbook type from building their own 'assault rifles' for a couple hundred bucks at their local hardware stores. I'm all for most of these modern background check ideas and such, I really am, I just don't get how the reaction of so many is "Well that would've stopped this from happening"... that's fantasy at this point.

I agree with this. As a gun owner I'm all for background checks, waiting periods, etc. However, it's silly to assume outlawing guns or restricting certain types will prevent terrorism. Cocaine and heroin are illegal, and yet they continue to find their ways into this country or they get manufactured right here. During prohibition people still found ways to make alcohol...sometimes crude ways which began causing death and is one of the reasons prohibition was repealed, but you get the point. At this point, from a technological and globally manufactured standpoint, the cat is out of the bag when it comes to these weapon types. Regulating them isn't going to keep them out of the hands of radicals. You're going to achieve better results by restricting, screening, and monitoring who is coming into this country.

 

[GoIrish41]

I am dumb because I made an error in interchanging clip with magazine? Maybe I am misinformed because that shit doesn't happen in my country I don't have to deal with it. Maybe you guys are just used to the CNN headline scrolls of "Another shooting!" And semantics such as clip vs magazine and "well its only semi-auto not fully (But buy the fully auto trigger cartridge and get a 10 pack of extended magazines for free!)

When you 2 gentlemen have actual facts, or want to be in a constructive debate please bring some information to the table and teach us what we are missing. Because all I see right now is a lot of dead people, no reason to have a gun like this and NRA shills clouding the issue.

What is your solution to this problem? As a gun afficiando what do you propose be done about this. Should civilians have access to 60 round magazines? Should you be able to pay $500 (probably less now) to turn a semi-auto into a full auto? Stop giving me bullshit and give me facts, give me concrete information to inform me. Stop with the cold dead hands routine. Its ok, I'll wait. Counting the bodies piling up.

 

[phork]

I thought is was because you're Canadian.

Thats besides the point.

 

[GoIrish41]

I agree with this. As a gun owner I'm all for background checks, waiting periods, etc. However, it's silly to assume outlawing guns or restricting certain types will prevent terrorism. Cocaine and heroin are illegal, and yet they continue to find their ways into this country or they get manufactured right here. During prohibition people still found ways to make alcohol...sometimes crude ways which began causing death which is one of the reasons prohibition was repealed, but you get the point. At this point, from a technological and globally manufactured standpoint, the cat is out of the bag when it comes to these weapon types. Regulating them isn't going to keep them out of the hands of radicals. You're going to achieve better results by restricting, screening, and monitoring who is coming into this country.

Illegal immigration is also illegal, but every year a lot of people make their way into the country. How is focusing on this easier than focusing on the guns that are used to kill people. Can't we, as a country, walk and chew gum at the same time? Doing one thing does not mean we address the other. They are two different problems.

 

[wizards8507]

What is your solution to this problem?

There isn't one, because we don't live in fucking Candyland. People have been murdering each other since the dawn of time and they'll be doing it until the end of days.

Should civilians have access to 60 round magazines? Should you be able to pay $500 (probably less now) to turn a semi-auto into a full auto? Stop giving me bullshit and give me facts, give me concrete information to inform me. Stop with the cold dead hands routine. Its ok, I'll wait. Counting the bodies piling up.

What law would have prevented this? France has all the laws you want them to pass here and that didn't save anyone in Paris, did it. Why do you have this idiotic idea in your head that the next gun law we pass will be the one that the criminals start following? Murder is already illegal, yet they murder. Even if 100% of all guns were illegal, they don't CARE what's illegal by their very nature.

 

[NorthDakota]

I am dumb because I made an error in interchanging clip with magazine? Maybe I am misinformed because that shit doesn't happen in my country I don't have to deal with it. Maybe you guys are just used to the CNN headline scrolls of "Another shooting!" And semantics such as clip vs magazine and "well its only semi-auto not fully (But buy the fully auto trigger cartridge and get a 10 pack of extended magazines for free!)

When you 2 gentlemen have actual facts, or want to be in a constructive debate please bring some information to the table and teach us what we are missing. Because all I see right now is a lot of dead people, no reason to have a gun like this and NRA shills clouding the issue.

What is your solution to this problem? As a gun afficiando what do you propose be done about this. Should civilians have access to 60 round magazines? Should you be able to pay $500 (probably less now) to turn a semi-auto into a full auto? Stop giving me bullshit and give me facts, give me concrete information to inform me. Stop with the cold dead hands routine. Its ok, I'll wait. Counting the bodies piling up.

Good for you.

People kill each other. **** happens. I am not a gun aficionado, just a firm believer in letting people own firearms. Yes people should have access to that they want, if they want a fully-auto gun, that should be their decision.

 

[phork]

There isn't one, because we don't live in fucking Candyland. People have been murdering each other since the dawn of time and they'll be doing it until the end of days.


What law would have prevented this? France has all the laws you want them to pass here and that didn't save anyone in Paris, did it. Why do you have this idiotic idea in your head that the next gun law we pass will be the one that the criminals start following? Murder is already illegal, yet they murder. Even if 100% of all guns were illegal, they don't CARE what's illegal by their very nature.

You are missing the point that it is a lot harder to acquire these guns if you don't have a gun for every man, woman and child in the US and easy access through shady background checks etc. I am not blind to believe that it won't happen. But restricting the making and selling of these guns + modifications would do wonders. You make it as hard as you possibly can to get your hands on these things. The Orlando shooter bought his gun less than a week before the incident. What does he buy when that AR15 is not sold in stores? Whats the alternative? The alternative is less people are dead.

 

[ACamp1900]

A realistic alternative is he builds a big bomb for much cheaper than the purchase price of the gun and blows the entire club up, killing everyone.

 

[phork]

Good for you.

People kill each other. **** happens. I am not a gun aficionado, just a firm believer in letting people own firearms. Yes people should have access to that they want, if they want a fully-auto gun, that should be their decision.

So.... I take that to mean you aren't stepping up. Because as I see it right now I am arguing with a fence post that says "Git yer gunz & ammo here, all ya can carry!"

 

[connor_in]

I thought is was because you're Canadian.

wat...Wait...WAIT !!!!!

phork is Canada-ian-ish-ender ??????

 

[tussin]

What the actual fuck, are people really that clueless when it comes to modern history? I don't give a shit about Godwin's law, Nazi Germany isn't that long ago. One of the world's major religions is waging a holy war today, in 2016. There are race riots on the streets of Chicago, San Jose, and Baltimore. Don't give me that shit about "the founders were talking about different gun technology." There are evil people and oppressive regimes in the world TODAY. Are you really that fucking ignorant that you think we're so safe from oppression in our cushy little bourgeois bubble?

Let me know when you have enough money saved up for your personal F-35.

 

[Wild Bill]

No, you aren't. In multiple threads you have made that clear. But can you give me a legitimate reason to own a fully automatic AR15?

Why does this exist for civilians?

Increasing civil unrest and the government response (stand down) when protesters, rioters, mobs (whatever you want to call them) become violent or destroy personal property is concerning.

 

[phork]

A realistic alternative is he builds a big bomb for much cheaper than the purchase price of the gun and blows the entire club up, killing everyone.

Wouldn't that have been easier? Oh no right, I forgot. I can walk off the street and buy all the killing machine I need. This is part of the point. Listen, idiots like this will always be around. But why make it easy for them to do it?