Offensive Line Thread

[Old Man Mike]

I still insist that the national experts are correct about how good our OLinemen are, and that the vast percentage of their "failures" do not reside with them but with their teammates and the play-calling. I watch every play with these guys on rewind. Hainsey and Kraemer rarely missed a block. Patterson got significantly better as the year went on.

Banks broke down some but that probably was injury related (and a bit too much weight). Liam Eichenberg was the only starter who had sort-of consistent difficulties with speed rushers, but supporting blockers didn't help him much. If he can clean up his false start yips, he should make a McGlinchey-esque improvement (though that's asking a lot.) Lugg was quite good with his reps as well.

If the TEs REALLY understand their in-line roles, the RBs pick up overload blitzes, AND hit holes "bravely and with violence", and Tommy calls a good variety of plays on short yardage and goal-line, our line should rock-and-maul for as long as we're healthy. Nobody's Q or Z, so the opponent wins some of the time. He just won't win much with these guys.

 

[Old Man Mike]

I should give a specific example, which was sort-of subtle.

In the bowl game, after the Gilman caused fumble: we are way down field and have a third and one. Tommy Rees calls a run to the right side, Jafar Armstrong carrying. (he'd just run a similar play the play before.)

Armstrong gets dropped for a three yard loss (and generally everyone bitches about play-calling, OLine play etc.) What actually happened was a little different.

When you slow-wind the play, every OLineman gets his block. (Banks doesn't have anyone to hit but hunts someone up anyway.) Lugg and Ruhland do just fine at the point of attack (off tackle.) The TE gets a great turn-out block, ultimately (with a struggle) pancaking the opponent. The crease is there and the lead blocker runs through it looking someone up. He also gets a reasonable block.

But what does Armstrong do? He DOESN'T hit the crease. He's late and he's poor at instinct and/or bravery. He feints inward and decides to run outside the TE's great kick-out block, trying to outsprint three ISU attackers to the edge. They swamp him. On a correctly blocked play, against a stacked run defense on fourth down, the RB turns a first down into a three yard loss on his own. It was never going to be a long run --- just a first down properly run.

No one comments on this. Kelly however knows exactly what happened. After the heroic Book scramble on the next play, the camera people show the ND sidelines for a few seconds. Kelly approaches Armstrong. Armstrong puts both hands up trying to ward him off. Kelly persists, insisting on his attention. As he talks, three other coaches in-turn listen into this intently. Coach knows who screwed this up and he's telling him.

It is my opinion that you can see things like this, mainly out of the RBs, all the time. I can't imagine how many yards some back like Etienne or the Wisconsin back would have rushed for behind this line.

 

[Irish#1]

I should give a specific example, which was sort-of subtle.

In the bowl game, after the Gilman caused fumble: we are way down field and have a third and one. Tommy Rees calls a run to the right side, Jafar Armstrong carrying. (he'd just run a similar play the play before.)

Armstrong gets dropped for a three yard loss (and generally everyone bitches about play-calling, OLine play etc.) What actually happened was a little different.

When you slow-wind the play, every OLineman gets his block. (Banks doesn't have anyone to hit but hunts someone up anyway.) Lugg and Ruhland do just fine at the point of attack (off tackle.) The TE gets a great turn-out block, ultimately (with a struggle) pancaking the opponent. The crease is there and the lead blocker runs through it looking someone up. He also gets a reasonable block.

But what does Armstrong do? He DOESN'T hit the crease. He's late and he's poor at instinct and/or bravery. He faints inward and decides to run outside the TE's great kick-out block, trying to outsprint three ISU attackers to the edge. They swamp him. On a correctly blocked play, against a stacked run defense on fourth down, the RB turns a first down into a three yard loss on his own. It was never going to be a long run --- just a first down properly run.

No one comments on this. Kelly however knows exactly what happened. After the heroic Book scramble on the next play, the camera people show the ND sidelines for a few seconds. Kelly approaches Armstrong. Armstrong puts both hands up trying to award him off. Kelly persists, insisting on his attention. As he talks, three other coaches in-turn listen into this intently. Coach knows who screwed this up and he's telling him.

It is my opinion that you can see things like this, mainly out of the RBs, all the time. I can't imagine how many yards some back like Etienne or the Wisconsin back would have rushed for behind this line.

Solid posts OMM.

 

[IHateMarkMay]

SI: ND is Offensive Line U

SI: ND is Offensive Line U

Not sure where to put this, but based on Sports Illustrated, Notre Dame is Offensive Line U.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/04/02/modern-offensive-line-u-based-on-numbers

 

[BobbyMac]

Just call me Crusaderdamus.

The talking heads of college football haven't declared this yet and there will be plenty here who'll argue that their play on the field has yet to earn the title but when you add up what the Irish put into the League last year, what they could have put into the League this year, what will go into the League next year, what's currently on campus, what's coming to campus and what's committed in '16 & '17... It's official in my book, O-Line U resides in South Bend, IN.

If you don't agree, remember... If you have the winning Powerball #'s on a ticket but haven't turned it in, you aren't rich yet but you have the winner in your possession and it's just a matter of time before you are.

Sometime around 2020 we'll all look back at what was / is one of the greatest runs in position strength we've ever seen.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Pretty much everyone in the country has come to the agreement that ND has a top 5 group of dudes on the O line.

If this group doesn't physically punish inferior teams like Arkansas and Wake while at least being productive against Wiscy and Clemson, we will all know what the problem is.

I don't think we need to put numbers or analytics on this thing. Our eyes will tell us what we need to know.

 

[Old Man Mike]

I kinda agree with that logic, but offer a caveat:

if we fail to bully certain teams we really need to dig at the reason that happened in any given game. I've seen so-called failures occur by several issues not primarily involved with the 5 linemen themselves. Examples:

1. The TE is not blocking worth a damm --- Tremble will pose this exact issue unless he gets better at that job, or unless he's always split and a more physical TE in-line blocker lines up in regular two TE formations. ;
2. The RBs are not aggressively hitting the called holes but hesitating and/or taking it wide even though a crease will appear if they commit --- we had LOTS of that by everyone but Jones last year; you can't create a superhighway every play, even Wisconsin will take the three yard gain;
3. The game plan emphasizes something else and Book has to be The Wizard due to play choices. In that case the OLine can well hold its areas and the RB screw up the blocking; If that happens Book will lose confidence in the integrity of the cup and not step up when that's the right action; this leaves our tackles unfairly vulnerable to speed rushes;
4. The opponent has some oddly good DT who is just going to make some plays because he's a monster --- Purdue, of all teams, used to surprisingly produce such a freak regularly;--- will some expected "weak" team just happen to have some guy you need to just leave alone?

I mention these because although I believe that our OLine is REALLY good, they are not the only factors in any of these stories, and I've heard them criticized (or the coaching)(inappropriately) many times in past years by this board. (even when we'd have a guy like ZMart or Stanley playing and just erasing one side of the opponent DLine.)

I agree that we screw up the offense pretty regularly even with our big studs, but when I run back the tapes of the screwed up plays, it's almost always somebody else effing it up, or the defense just stacked against what was called. I keep remembering the comments by an NFL coach 5-6 years ago (whenever that was): if you wanted to draft an OLineman, he said, who didn't need to be taught the fundamentals of good OLine play, there were four teams that you could count on --- Notre Dame, Iowa, Wisconsin, and one other that I've forgotten, but think was Stanford. Those players already know how to play OLine. I believe that our OLine coaching has been generally top notch throughout Kelly's years. He had to build up that unit from almost nothing but patchwork.

 

[Irishize]

Good insight from former OL Aaron Taylor on ND’s current blocking schemes

https://www.ndinsider.com/football/...cle_7c0cd561-ff13-517c-8381-0c9e436b30eb.html

 

[Huntr]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Highest-graded power-five non-QBs in College Football:<br><br>1. Kyle Pitts, Florida TE - 95.6<br>2. Liam Eichenberg, Notre Dame OT - 93.7<br>3. Christian Darrisaw, VA Tech OT - 92.3<br>4. Jarrett Patterson, Notre Dame C - 91.4<br>5. Teven Jenkins, Oklahoma St OT - 90.8 <a href="https://t.co/I2MbhnP8xD">pic.twitter.com/I2MbhnP8xD</a></p>— PFF College (@PFF_College) <a href="https://twitter.com/PFF_College/status/1313883643736137728?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 7, 2020</a></blockquote>

 

[zelezo vlk]

Great to see Patterson on there too. Eich is making himself some money this season

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Great to see Patterson on there too. Eich is making himself some money this season

Yup. If he continues to play at this high level he should be a lock for the first round.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Yup. If he continues to play at this high level he should be a lock for the first round.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It would be great to keep the LT streak alive.

 

[Irish#1]

Great to see Patterson on there too. Eich is making himself some money this season

Yep

• In Notre Dame’s very limited 2020 inventory, left tackle Liam Eichenberg has been the standout in Taylor’s mind.

“He’s fast. He’s agile, and his vertical steps are great,” Taylor said. “He’s finishing. He’s got some toughness.”

 

[Old Man Mike]

.... and he's cured his hiccups. or the offensive scheme has.

 

[Huntr]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Highest combined OL PFF grade since 2016 (<a href="https://twitter.com/PFF_College?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@PFF_College</a>, Power 5 only)<br><br>1. Notre Dame (2020) - 96.8<br>2. Wisconsin (2018) - 93.8<br>3. Washington St (2016) - 90.7<br>4. Iowa (2016) - 90.1<br>5. Oregon (2019) - 90.0<br><br>This Irish OL might be the best I have ever seen at the college level. <a href="https://t.co/lItpZ5sNlQ">pic.twitter.com/lItpZ5sNlQ</a></p>— Anthony Treash (@PFF_Anthony) <a href="https://twitter.com/PFF_Anthony/status/1314193479002656789?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 8, 2020</a></blockquote>



"might be the best I've ever seen at the college level."



Guys.

 

[greyhammer90]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Highest combined OL PFF grade since 2016 (<a href="https://twitter.com/PFF_College?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@PFF_College</a>, Power 5 only)<br><br>1. Notre Dame (2020) - 96.8<br>2. Wisconsin (2018) - 93.8<br>3. Washington St (2016) - 90.7<br>4. Iowa (2016) - 90.1<br>5. Oregon (2019) - 90.0<br><br>This Irish OL might be the best I have ever seen at the college level. <a href="https://t.co/lItpZ5sNlQ">pic.twitter.com/lItpZ5sNlQ</a></p>— Anthony Treash (@PFF_Anthony) <a href="https://twitter.com/PFF_Anthony/status/1314193479002656789?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 8, 2020</a></blockquote>



"might be the best I've ever seen at the college level."


Guys.

Wut. Did we play a game last Saturday and I just don't know about it? Or is this purely based off Duke and USF?

 

[IrishLax]

We've played two games. Two. I agree that they smacked around USF. Who cares? Talk to me after they dominate a ranked team.

 

[dublinirish]

Wut. Did we play a game last Saturday and I just don't know about it? Or is this purely based off Duke and USF?

to be the best you have to beat the best obviously

 

[Huntr]

The PFF guys tend to be a smidge hyperbolic.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Regardless of the overstatements, lets stay focused on the fact that we DO have a very good OLine, and not diminish that, in our rush to deny nice things that football people say about our players.

 

[InKellyWeTrust]

We always seem to have a good Oline until we play Clemson or Miami or Georgia or, dare I say, Michigan. Then it looks pretty average. I hope its different this year but I'm skeptical they can consistently keep Book clean and create holes against a Clemson front 7. They probably will all look like all-Americans against FSU on Saturday.

 

[greyhammer90]

Regardless of the overstatements, lets stay focused on the fact that we DO have a very good OLine, and not diminish that, in our rush to deny nice things that football people say about our players.

I agree that we need to enjoy praise about ND football when it comes, but the the idea that what we've seen so far would reasonably indicate that we have the greatest OL of the last 10 years is such a hot take that it makes it difficult to take anything that analyst says seriously.

 

[Old Man Mike]

.... yes. And we are all sophisticated enough students of football to know that the OLine is not the cause of every inch or non-inch gained or lost on every play. To evaluate them, one will, of course, take into account what the game plan is, what the run scheme is, how much throwing we need to do, how well our supporting RBs and TEs are doing, how well our QB is maintaining his pocket presence.

I don't watch the ball. If anyone is thinking of saying things about how the OLine really did, they shouldn't either. I've seen hundreds of plays over the last years of football where the OLine did exactly what it was asked to do, and plays still failed. I even watched them block Clemson --- but the rest of the offense NOT block the constant blitzers.

Whatever .... the big guys are easy to blame. Almost no one REALLY watches them anyway.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

We always seem to have a good Oline until we play Clemson or Miami or Georgia or, dare I say, Michigan. Then it looks pretty average. I hope its different this year but I'm skeptical they can consistently keep Book clean and create holes against a Clemson front 7. They probably will all look like all-Americans against FSU on Saturday.

IDK about that against FSU. The inside guys will have a real hard time with Marvin Williams.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dad4aa]

Doesn't Duke have a top 15 rated D line?

 

[stpeteirish]

IDK about that against FSU. The inside guys will have a real hard time with Marvin Williams.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Its Marvin Wilson and yes, he'll be a test. The FSU scribe 247 had preview the game did say he's been "not impactful" so far, FWIW.

That would probably be an accurate descripition of every high end recruit they've landed lately. Remember Joshua Kaindoh? He's not doing much either.

 

[Huntr]

IDK about that against FSU. The inside guys will have a real hard time with Marvin Williams.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wilson has been mediocre at best this season. He is out of shape and his snap counts are way down because of it. I doubt he will be the force on Saturday that he was expected to be this year.

edit: snap count down, even taking his 1st half suspension last week into account.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Wilson has been mediocre at best this season. He is out of shape and his snap counts are way down because of it. I doubt he will be the force on Saturday that he was expected to be this year.

edit: snap count down, even taking his 1st half suspension last week into account.

Prime time game at Notre Dame I bet that he brings an A effort and performance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Crazy Balki]

Doesn't Duke have a top 15 rated D line?

Yup. Honestly, USF's defense looks pretty decent too. Nothing amazing, but they hung in there with Cincinnati, despite their absolutely abysmal offense continuously turning the ball over (5 turnovers) and going three and out.

Duke's been a similar story. Good defense, but to say their offense is "mistake prone" would be the understatement of the millennium. I can't comprehend how they managed to go the entire game against us without turning the ball over. It's beyond me really. That's really been the tale of the tape for Duke. They've managed to move the ball a decent amount against most teams (except us), but in 4 games, they've turned the ball over 15 times...that is not a typo. They're averaging nearly 4 turnovers a game. And what's really surreal, is that they had the least amount of turnovers against us with only 2.

 

[Irish YJ]

Doesn't Duke have a top 15 rated D line?

Gotta call BS on any ratings/rankings that have Duke in the top 15. FO has them outside of the top 40 in everything except sack rate (21st). They're giving up 250ish passing yards a game, and 195 on the ground. They got half their sacks (6) vs BC, 3 vs ND, and a combined 3 more vs VA and VT. ND's OL, FWIW, has a sack rate of 39th.

Yup. Honestly, USF's defense looks pretty decent too. Nothing amazing, but they hung in there with Cincinnati, despite their absolutely abysmal offense continuously turning the ball over (5 turnovers) and going three and out.

Duke's been a similar story. Good defense, but to say their offense is "mistake prone" would be the understatement of the millennium. I can't comprehend how they managed to go the entire game against us without turning the ball over. It's beyond me really. That's really been the tale of the tape for Duke. They've managed to move the ball a decent amount against most teams (except us), but in 4 games, they've turned the ball over 15 times...that is not a typo. They're averaging nearly 4 turnovers a game. And what's really surreal, is that they had the least amount of turnovers against us with only 2.

USFs ranks for DL are pretty mediocre. Not sure I would say they hung with Cinci. Besides the chaotic start (I think there were like 4 or 5 TOs in a row at the start), It seemed pretty one sided. Not saying Cinci was dominant, but they were up 21-0, and scored again quickly to answer a USF TD. I don't think Cinci is all that good either. Always cheer for them though.