Offensive Line Thread

[Whiskeyjack]

I’m prepared to get ripped for this opinion, but while I thought HH was a good coach, I’ve always thought he was very overrated by the fan base. Our OL has had a tendency to stink it up in big games and while I’m sure a lot of that is due to play calling as well, I’ve always thought a top-tier OL should be able to impose their will on anyone and avoid a sh!tshow like a Miami game for instance. For years I have thought we were good not great on the line and while I would have been happy keeping HH, I don’t think this is a massive loss.

My exact thoughts.

Look good against Temple, get owned against a great defense. We should at least compete in the trenches against great defenses if our OL is so great, not get completely thumped.

OL play is difficult to properly evaluate, so I'll cut you some slack here, but this is an indefensible position. If the recent and unprecedented professional success of our OL and the effusive praise of NFL scouts isn't enough for you, take a look at Football Outsiders' Adjusted Line Yards stat, which is the closest thing to a reliable opponent-adjusted ranking for OL that exists:

2017 - 5th
2016 - 18th
2015 - 2nd

Our OL has been elite in every sense of the word under Hiestand-- recruiting, development, on-field performance, draft position, professional accolades, etc. Some of you are in for a very rude awakening over the next few seasons as you come to realize what we just lost.

 

[IrishLax]

What in the !?@#?!@# does this mean? I thought everyone loved HH?

....Hiestand is a major asshole. It's also what makes him so good.

 

[snoopdog]

Do I need to state the obvious?

Yes please. Haven’t heard that BK must go for about 8 or 9 minutes.

 

[ResLife Hero]

I imagine we'll regress without HH because, as Whiskeyjack pointed out, our line grades out extremely well with people who know what they're looking at and talking about. There were some parts of his tenure that I found frustrating like not having RT figured out by the start of the 2017 season, having a ton of guys never develop into starters and some real inconsistencies game to game. So, it sucks, but we'll replace. We've got talent and an OC who I don't see putting up with a slouch on his staff. Might not win the Joe Moore award next year, but I don't think the floodgates will open either.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

OL play is difficult to properly evaluate, so I'll cut you some slack here, but this is an indefensible position. If the recent and unprecedented professional success of our OL and the effusive praise of NFL scouts isn't enough for you, take a look at Football Outsiders' Adjusted Line Yards stat, which is the closest thing to a reliable opponent-adjusted ranking for OL that exists:



Our OL has been elite in every sense of the word under Hiestand-- recruiting, development, on-field performance, draft position, professional accolades, etc. Some of you are in for a very rude awakening over the next few seasons as you come to realize what we just lost.

At least some people get this. We can still make a homerun hire and still develop great OLs but Histeand was routinely called out as one of the best coaches in the game by professionals, other college coaches and all his players. And his players always graded near the top.

We should still attract great OL, I hope we can give them a great coach.

 

[koonja]

OL play is difficult to properly evaluate, so I'll cut you some slack here, but this is an indefensible position. If the recent and unprecedented professional success of our OL and the effusive praise of NFL scouts isn't enough for you, take a look at Football Outsiders' Adjusted Line Yards stat, which is the closest thing to a reliable opponent-adjusted ranking for OL that exists:



Our OL has been elite in every sense of the word under Hiestand-- recruiting, development, on-field performance, draft position, professional accolades, etc. Some of you are in for a very rude awakening over the next few seasons as you come to realize what we just lost.

Let's forget face value stats, and even fancy pants stats for a second...

Do you think that our OL's as a whole lived up to the hype when we played a great defense? I don't need them to dominate a great defense, but if he's so great, they shouldn't get owned.

The 2016 team with all their flaws had McGlinchey and Nelson.

We scored 3 points against NC State.
10 points against Stanford.

2017 had the best individual talent we've ever had, and we couldn't do anything against Georgia, or even Miami. We should be at least competing in the trenches, not getting owned.

Great developer of individual talent, and that is enough to look great against inferior opponents. But that isn't enough against the great defenses, and I think HH left something to be desired there.

 

[snoopdog]

Who was the o-line coach when the Irish went 4-8 and McG kept jumping offsid and Mustipher couldn’t snap the ball consistently well and the right side kept getting buried on passing downs.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Let's forget face value stats, and even fancy pants stats for a second...

Do you think that our OL's as a whole lived up to the hype when we played a great defense? I don't need them to dominate a great defense, but if he's so great, they shouldn't get owned.

The 2016 team with all their flaws had McGlinchey and Nelson.

We scored 3 points against NC State.
10 points against Stanford.

2017 had the best individual talent we've ever had, and we couldn't do anything against Georgia, or even Miami. We should be at least competing in the trenches, not getting owned.

Great developer of individual talent, and that is enough to look great against inferior opponents. But that isn't enough against the great defenses, and I think HH left something to be desired there.

Did our OL get owned or did our entire team falter? Because as I remember it, our QB wasn't able to hit his receivers and we routinely put our defense in a bad spot in both of those games.

I'd say OL was quite possibly the least of our concerns. Just because our line was bested on a few memorable plays, it doesn't mean they were horrible the other 95% of the time.

Our entire team looked like it ran out of gas. We peaked early.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Let's forget face value stats, and even fancy pants stats for a second...

Do you think that our OL's as a whole lived up to the hype when we played a great defense? I don't need them to dominate a great defense, but if he's so great, they shouldn't get owned.

The 2016 team with all their flaws had McGlinchey and Nelson.

We scored 3 points against NC State.
10 points against Stanford.

2017 had the best individual talent we've ever had, and we couldn't do anything against Georgia, or even Miami. We should be at least competing in the trenches, not getting owned.

Great developer of individual talent, and that is enough to look great against inferior opponents. But that isn't enough against the great defenses, and I think HH left something to be desired there.

last year sucked, but the OL wasn't the crux of the problem. For problems this year, there is only so much 5 men can do when the QB wasn't a threat down the field.....

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Who was the o-line coach when the Irish went 4-8 and McG kept jumping offsid and Mustipher couldn’t snap the ball consistently well and the right side kept getting buried on passing downs.

Lol, some ignant a$$ sh!t right der. #makeOLgreatagain

 

[koonja]

Did our OL get owned or did our entire team falter? Because as I remember it, our QB wasn't able to hit his receivers and we routinely put our defense in a bad spot in both of those games.

I'd say OL was quite possibly the least of our concerns. Just because our line was bested on a few memorable plays, it doesn't mean they were horrible the other 95% of the time.

Our entire team looked like it ran out of gas. We peaked early.

It all starts up front. When you're getting stoned at the LOS because the OL is overwhelmed, near impossible to get anything else going.

 

[stlnd01]

HH was a good coach. There are other good coaches. It’ll be OK.

Guessing this torpedos any further OL recruiting this cycle though, huh?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Do you think that our OL's as a whole lived up to the hype when we played a great defense? I don't need them to dominate a great defense, but if he's so great, they shouldn't get owned.

They didn't get "owned" against anyone. They almost always did enough. Our offensive skill players and the play-calling frequently sucked against elite competition.

2017 had the best individual talent we've ever had, and we couldn't do anything against Georgia, or even Miami. We should be at least competing in the trenches, not getting owned.

Look at the 'Bama-UGA game. Do you think Saban's OL "got owned"? They couldn't get anything going with Hurts at QB, and I'm sure there were plenty of 'Bama fans slamming fists down on armchairs grumping about "exerting our will". When two elite lines go against each other, you're gonna win some and lose some. It's up to the offensive skill players to make the most of whatever opportunities each OL can offer them. That's where we've fallen short so many times over the last 5 years. It ain't on our OL.

Great developer of individual talent, and that is enough to look great against inferior opponents. But that isn't enough against the great defenses, and I think HH left something to be desired there.

If you've been unimpressed by Hiestand, buckle up for the next few seasons.

 

[Meatloaf]

Obviously, what happens going forward largely depends on who ND can bring in to replace HH.

If Kelly hires Jeff Quinn, however:

 

[ACamp1900]

Let's forget face value stats, and even fancy pants stats for a second...

Do you think that our OL's as a whole lived up to the hype when we played a great defense? I don't need them to dominate a great defense, but if he's so great, they shouldn't get owned.

The 2016 team with all their flaws had McGlinchey and Nelson.

We scored 3 points against NC State.
10 points against Stanford.

2017 had the best individual talent we've ever had, and we couldn't do anything against Georgia, or even Miami. We should be at least competing in the trenches, not getting owned.

Great developer of individual talent, and that is enough to look great against inferior opponents. But that isn't enough against the great defenses, and I think HH left something to be desired there.

They didn't get "owned" against anyone. They almost always did enough. Our offensive skill players and the play-calling frequently sucked against elite competition.



Look at the 'Bama-UGA game. Do you think Saban's OL "got owned"? They couldn't get anything going with Hurts at QB, and I'm sure there were plenty of 'Bama fans slamming fists down on armchairs grumping about "exerting our will". When two elite lines go against each other, you're gonna win some and lose some. It's up to the offensive skill players to make the most of whatever opportunities each OL can offer them. That's where we've fallen short so many times over the last 5 years. It ain't on our OL.



If you've been unimpressed by Hiestand, buckle up for the next few seasons.

 

[koonja]

They didn't get "owned" against anyone. They almost always did enough. Our offensive skill players and the play-calling frequently sucked against elite competition.



Look at the 'Bama-UGA game. Do you think Saban's OL "got owned"? They couldn't get anything going with Hurts at QB, and I'm sure there were plenty of 'Bama fans slamming fists down on armchairs grumping about "exerting our will". When two elite lines go against each other, you're gonna win some and lose some. It's up to the offensive skill players to make the most of whatever opportunities each OL can offer them. That's where we've fallen short so many times over the last 5 years. It ain't on our OL.



If you've been unimpressed by Hiestand, buckle up for the next few seasons.

Ugh, yeah they did against Georgia and Miami.

No, because Bama ran for 193 yards against Georgia.

We ran for 55 yards against Georgia. And 16 of those came from BW!

How is that even comparable?

 

[ulukinatme]

Both are detrimental, but Elko was a bigger loss than Harry.

This is like finding out you have treatable cancer after being diagnosed with AIDS a week ago.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Our OL performance, and success later in the NFL has never been higher in the last 20+ years at least. Elko hurt, but he was here one year and there's a chance the drop off may be minimal under Lea. Heistand was bringing in OL recruits and making them NFL studs, churning out high draft picks almost every year now. We've made a name for ourselves under Harry. Fortunately whoever we get after will have a lot to work with, the cupboard is far from bare. I should be surprised that someone is ragging on OL play and that person self proclaimed to not be great evaluating film (when it's already harder to evaluate OL without tangible stats to back them up with). Yeah, should be surprised, but the name says it all.

OL play is difficult to properly evaluate, so I'll cut you some slack here, but this is an indefensible position. If the recent and unprecedented professional success of our OL and the effusive praise of NFL scouts isn't enough for you, take a look at Football Outsiders' Adjusted Line Yards stat, which is the closest thing to a reliable opponent-adjusted ranking for OL that exists:



Our OL has been elite in every sense of the word under Hiestand-- recruiting, development, on-field performance, draft position, professional accolades, etc. Some of you are in for a very rude awakening over the next few seasons as you come to realize what we just lost.

This. The one good thing we can say here is that whoever fills in has a good base to work with. The drop off may not be immediately noticeable the first year, or maybe we get lucky with another elite teacher, but history shows that's unlikely. I think the best option is as Crusader suggesed, get Warriner back. He didn't do anything for recruiting, but he is strong in the run game. It seems like he was in over his head running the OSU offense once he was promoted, so hopefully he's content making his living as OL coach. Hopefully the bridge isn't burned there, because otherwise I think he's attainable and we can maintain a strong run game.

 

[koonja]

Huh?

 

[ACamp1900]

Huh?

Just breaking the tension bro...

 

[KizerWilhelm]

Lol at the "actually, HH was overrated" hot takes. Sure, that's why he's being poached by an NFL team.

And not to call anyone out, but nothing irritates me more than the posts here and back in the Elko thread saying "well, this isn't the end of world, we'll get someone else, the sky isn't falling."

No shit. We all know that. But twice now we have to trade a known, proven quantity for an unknown one. These developments are bad for Notre Dame football, and the people pointing it out aren't overreacting.

 

[GEORGIA DOMER]

I agree with this 100%

I agree with this 100%

Let's forget face value stats, and even fancy pants stats for a second...

Do you think that our OL's as a whole lived up to the hype when we played a great defense? I don't need them to dominate a great defense, but if he's so great, they shouldn't get owned.

The 2016 team with all their flaws had McGlinchey and Nelson.

We scored 3 points against NC State.
10 points against Stanford.

2017 had the best individual talent we've ever had, and we couldn't do anything against Georgia, or even Miami. We should be at least competing in the trenches, not getting owned.

Great developer of individual talent, and that is enough to look great against inferior opponents. But that isn't enough against the great defenses, and I think HH left something to be desired there.

Watching the NC game thinking Bama would have killed us up front. Maybe score 10 points total. Love that he puts guys in the NFL as high draft picks. Not very happy VS top flight D lines.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Just breaking the tension bro...

GFY

or at the very least

GFWM

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Ugh, yeah they did against Georgia and Miami.

No, but they ran for 190 yards against Georgia. We ran for 55. How is that even comparable?

It's not "comparable", because you can't infer anything useful from those two vanilla stats. How many rushing plays were called? In what down and distance? Were you playing from behind, or nursing a lead? Is the passing game having any success? How are your RBs doing? etc.

Read about the Adjusted Line Yards stat. It takes a lot of work to suss out an OL's performance from all the other variables involved. Hiestand's OL ranked 5th nationally this year, and two starters from that line are about to be drafted in the 1st or 2nd round. Our offensive ineptitude against Georgia and Miami are squarely on Wimbush, Chip Long and our WRs.

 

[koonja]

And I love HH. Hell, I owned the @FakeHarry twitter account.

But the RBs having 39 total rushing yards against Georgia, when we have TWO possible 1st round picks on the OL, is just total crap. If you're a Josh Adams fan and you think he's awesome, add to that we had a "great" running back.

Against Miami, we had a total of 109 rushing yards on 36 carries. And 600 sacks.

The OL did not hold their own against great defenses, and we had elite talent on it.

 

[KizerWilhelm]

On an entirely unrelated note

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Seahawks?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Seahawks</a> have fired OL coach Tom Cable, source said. More change. <a href="https://twitter.com/bcondotta?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@bcondotta</a> on it first.</p>— Ian Rapoport (@RapSheet) <a href="https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/951206454618480640?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 10, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Whiskeyjack]

And I love HH. I owned the @FakeHarry twitter account.

But the RBs having 39 total rushing yards against Georgia, when we have TWO possible 1st round picks on the OL, is just total crap.

Must be the OL...

galaxybrain.jpg

 

[koonja]

Must be the OL...

galaxybrain.jpg

It was a lot of things, but the root cause was getting curb stomped in the trenches.

 

[BoredIrish]

And I love HH. Hell, I owned the @FakeHarry twitter account.

But the RBs having 39 total rushing yards against Georgia, when we have TWO possible 1st round picks on the OL, is just total crap. If you're a Josh Adams fan and you think he's awesome, add to that we had a "great" running back.

Against Miami, we had a total of 109 rushing yards on 36 carries. And 600 sacks.

The OL did not hold their own against great defenses, and we had elite talent on it.

...but they loaded the box!!!

 

[ACamp1900]

On an entirely unrelated note

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Seahawks?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Seahawks</a> have fired OL coach Tom Cable, source said. More change. <a href="https://twitter.com/bcondotta?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@bcondotta</a> on it first.</p>— Ian Rapoport (@RapSheet) <a href="https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/951206454618480640?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 10, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Talk about a tough gig... they trade off his corner stone, never really address the a replacement or other personnel issues and now they fire him like it's all his fault? Obviously the full story is behind closed doors but from the outside looking in,... damn.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

It was a lot of things, but the root cause was getting curb stomped in the trenches.

I don't have time to keep refuting these baseless #HotTakes. The stats say you're wrong, NFL scouts say you're wrong, our players say you're wrong... but Koon's eye test trumps all, right?

Let's see what happens with our OL performance over the next few seasons. If you're right, we shouldn't see much of a regression.