Offensive Line Thread

ulukinatme

Carr for QB 2025!
Messages
31,509
Reaction score
17,369
He's not much of a recruiter, but he's a good coach. Perhaps Hiestand is the opposite? Hard to believe with his resume.

Yup, this is what I was saying last year. Can't argue with Heistand's recruiting prowess, but Warriner did a damn good job for us opening holes for the run game, and he turned OSU around as well. Harry does alright with the pass protection, but I'm not seeing the holes for our RBs like we were seeing, especially not with the talent we should theoretically have.
 

Irish Houstonian

New member
Messages
2,722
Reaction score
301
Well, in Heistand's defense, when you run directly out of shotgun, and it's not a zone read or read option, you really don't get very big holes. I would blame the lack of run lanes on the play calling/system more than the o-line coach.
 

Old Man Mike

Fast as Lightning!
Messages
8,965
Reaction score
6,453
Well, my opinion....

Coach Hiestand is going to be fine. OLines are guessed and manufactured largely before the season begins, and it's risky to juggle them about unless you're really forced to.

Our Oline looked to be potentially really solid due to all the last year's experience. That initial front five was Stanley, Hegarty, NMart, Lombard, Elmer. On paper everybody said this looked promising. But surprises happened. Steve couldn't quickly adjust back to tackle vs the speed rushers and both guards were being overpowered by the DTs.

Hiestand did the right thing. He inverted Lombard and Elmer to get a more experienced guy at RT and a more powerful guy at RG. He took the guy who is supposed to be the toughest [NMart] and inverted him with the mobile Hegarty. Now two more surprises occurred. Lombard got dinged and couldn't get it done at RT consistently, and NMart and Hegarty together couldn't generate enough physicality for whatever reasons [there's probably an untold story there regarding injuries], and the center area began to blow up again.

By this time coach Harry finds himself in the same position as Kelly: do you replace these pieces with green players or experienced players who you don't really believe can get it done or stick with what you have? McGlinchey and Hanratty seem to have been the only serious options, and coach did what he could --- still late-season OLine jugglings are almost always trouble.

Next year Harry will know several things almost impossible to know this pre-season: 1). Elmer has a lot of trouble vs speed rushers and 2). McGlinchey may not have. 3). his centers have real trouble with power DTs. I've no crystal ball, but I'll be happy to see if he goes with more lengthy tackles [i.e. Stanley and McGlinchey as best guesses] and keeps Elmer at guard, and looks very seriously at the 5-star quality rooks and people like Bivin or Mustipher --- known forklifts --- for the other positions. I also would not be surprised if he keeps the "first team" a bit more fluid next pre-season, given our terrible recent injury history.
 

IrishLax

Something Witty
Staff member
Messages
37,544
Reaction score
28,990
Only thing he screwed up was not benching Lombard earlier, but I get why he wanted a veteran presence on the OL. I don't think anyone expected Martin to be that bad at center and once he was it COMPLETELY changed the dynamics of the OL. Guy was supposed to be freaking captain material, his play early in the season wasn't even MAC level.

I thought the OL did fine after getting some consistency inside. A youth movement is needed next year though... I don't want 5th year Hegarty/Martin starting on seniority alone if there are better horses below them.
 

NDRock

Well-known member
Messages
7,489
Reaction score
5,448
He's not much of a recruiter, but he's a good coach. Perhaps Hiestand is the opposite? Hard to believe with his resume.

It's funny, when he was at UT all they talked about was how bad of a recruiter he was. I chalk that up the Derek Dooley being the coach, guy was awful. Didn't we also change schemes when Hiestand arrive? Our running game was really good in 2011 not sure why Kelly switched things up.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
It's funny, when he was at UT all they talked about was how bad of a recruiter he was. I chalk that up the Derek Dooley being the coach, guy was awful. Didn't we also change schemes when Hiestand arrive? Our running game was really good in 2011 not sure why Kelly switched things up.

We've been a zone-blocking team ever since Kelly arrived, but Warriner frequently utilized gap-blocking as well.
 

dwshade

Banned
Messages
3,338
Reaction score
123
Only thing he screwed up was not benching Lombard earlier, but I get why he wanted a veteran presence on the OL. I don't think anyone expected Martin to be that bad at center and once he was it COMPLETELY changed the dynamics of the OL. Guy was supposed to be freaking captain material, his play early in the season wasn't even MAC level.

I thought the OL did fine after getting some consistency inside. A youth movement is needed next year though... I don't want 5th year Hegarty/Martin starting on seniority alone if there are better horses below them.

Martin wasn't close to being 100% healthy. Coming off knee surgery then tore up his hand pretty bad. He played with one hand essentially for most of year. He'll play in the NFL. Lombard was a 5th year SR. and the only other option was McGlinchey who has no experience. They just didn't want to add another inexperienced OL to the group. Not to mention Lombard's more natural position is guard but we found out early on Elmer is also more suited to guard than tackle. Next season we'll return four starters plus likely McGlinchey at RT. They will be much better next year as the more OL play together the better they mesh as a unit.
 

dwshade

Banned
Messages
3,338
Reaction score
123
Yup, this is what I was saying last year. Can't argue with Heistand's recruiting prowess, but Warriner did a damn good job for us opening holes for the run game, and he turned OSU around as well. Harry does alright with the pass protection, but I'm not seeing the holes for our RBs like we were seeing, especially not with the talent we should theoretically have.

Harry Hiestand is an outstanding OL coach. Ask Zack Martin (who may be the best rookie in NFL regardless of position) and Chris Watt. He did a good job with what he had to work with this year. He was basically playing with two guards on the right side with Lombard and Elmer. Martin played hurt most of year and Hegarty was getting his first extensive playing time. I think people overestimated this line before the season based on recruiting success the last two years. But those kids simply won't be ready to play at this level until next season. Guys like Nelson, Mustipher, Bars, Bivin. Back to Hiestand, I've gotten to know Greg Gabriel a bit who posts on II. He was a an NFL scout for over 30 years and now writes for National Football Post and has known Harry for many years. He'll tell you just how respected Harry is in NFL circles as a teacher and technician. Again ask Martin and Watts how much they learned from Harry.
 

IRISHDODGER

Blue Chip Recruit
Messages
8,039
Reaction score
6,103
Bowl & Spring practices should be enough to evaluate who the best five are regardless of class. Hopefully, ND can start putting away the inferior teams and allow for 2-3 deep to get some reps in the event of injury as the year progresses. I agree w/ others here who think there are some unspoken injuries that these kids have played with. It's hard to believe w/ all the injuries on defense that there wasn't some on offense, too. As bad as the OL looked down the stretch, I'd love for some of the issues to be injuries.
 

irishff1014

Well-known member
Messages
26,509
Reaction score
9,284
Martin wasn't close to being 100% healthy. Coming off knee surgery then tore up his hand pretty bad. He played with one hand essentially for most of year. He'll play in the NFL. Lombard was a 5th year SR. and the only other option was McGlinchey who has no experience. They just didn't want to add another inexperienced OL to the group. Not to mention Lombard's more natural position is guard but we found out early on Elmer is also more suited to guard than tackle. Next season we'll return four starters plus likely McGlinchey at RT. They will be much better next year as the more OL play together the better they mesh as a unit.

You assume they will be better. They might be even worse.
 

dwshade

Banned
Messages
3,338
Reaction score
123
I think it's safe to ASSUME every program in America expects its young football players to improve year to year. Not going out on a limb with that one.
 

Crazy Balki

Site Assigned Optimist
Messages
7,868
Reaction score
4,477
Yes, I forgot to mention that Lombard played hurt much of the year.

Of course he did. With the way injuries have hit this team, I wouldn't be surprised if somebody was playing through scurvy...
 

Ndaccountant

Old Hoss
Messages
8,370
Reaction score
5,771
Interesting stats from football outsiders on ND line this year:

Run-blocking stats
•Adjusted Line Yards: One of only two opponent-adjusted numbers on the page, this aligns with the ALY figure FO tracks for the NFL and is presented on a scale in which 100.0 is perfectly average, above 100 is good, below 100 is bad.
•Standard Downs Line Yards per Carry: The raw, unadjusted per-carry line yardage for a team on standard downs (first down, second-and-7 or fewer, third-and-4 or fewer, fourth-and-4 or fewer).
•Passing Downs Line Yards per Carry: The same unadjusted averages for rushing on passing downs.
•Opportunity Rate: The percentage of carries (when five yards are available) that gain at least five yards, i.e. the percentage of carries in which the line does its job, so to speak.
•Power Success Rate: This is the same as on the pro side -- percentage of runs on third or fourth down, two yards or less to go, that achieved a first down or touchdown.
•Stuff Rate: Same as STUFFED on the pro side -- percentage of carries by running backs that are stopped at or before the line of scrimmage.

Pass-blocking stats
•Adjusted Sack Rate: An opponent-adjusted version of a team's sack rate -- sacks divided by (sacks plus passes), presented on a scale in which 100 is perfectly average, above 100 is good, below 100 is bad.
•Standard Downs Sack Rate: Unadjusted sack rate for standard downs pass attempts.
•Passing Downs Sack Rate: Unadjusted sack rate for passing downs pass attempts.


Adj LY rank: 36
STD Downs LY Rank: 65
Passing Downs LY Rank: 49
Opp Rank: 21
Power Success Rank: 61
Stuff Rank: 27
Adj Sack Rank: 32
STD Downs Sack Rank: 7
Passing Downs Sack Rank: 105

What this tells me: ND line was below meh when it was clear what was coming (run or pass). The only stat that is superior is the pass protection on standard downs. What is also telling is that the Opp rank was around 20, which means the running game isn't nearly as bad as some think, it's just a matter of giving it more opportunity to flourish.
 

RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
Messages
8,622
Reaction score
2,722
So is next year when we start seeing the benefits of all of these top OL recruiting classes? 2012 was weak but 2013 and 2014were ridiculous. Are these guys still too young to dominate? Is 2016 the year our OL becomes elite and next year will still see growing pains? Is it a good thing if Nelson and McGlinchey can't crack the starting lineup next year? Will we ever see a rotation or OL or will 5 starts always be the way it rolls? With all this beef, does a 6th OL start lining up in goal line situations?

Looking at the depth chart, I am less frustrated with our lack of run game and ability to impose our will. Physically, five star sophomores are not going to be better than four star 5YRs. Even next year I am tempering my OL expectations as they will be quite young but should definitely be top 25 caliber. 2016 should be the year they are truly elite and look to stay that way with plenty of talent coming in with years to season instead of being rushed to service.


2012 - Stanley, Harrell, Daly (damn is this class frustrating when you look at it overall)
2013 - Biven, Elmer, McGlinchey, Monteleus, McGovern
2014 - Nelson, Bars, Byrne, Mustipher
2015 - Tillery, Hoge, Ruhland
2016 - Kraemer
 

Old Man Mike

Fast as Lightning!
Messages
8,965
Reaction score
6,453
My opinions [worth a nickel max]:
1). Kelly will still want to fling it more than pound it, and so will ask Coach Harry to emphasize a pass-blocking rather than a run-blocking philosophy --- of course Harry will do what he can both ways, but the HC will demand more work on pass than run.

2). This outlook then has consequences for Coach Harry. On the one hand he requires mobility, deftness of feet, quick first steps, and good initial punch, but, as we saw, he will also require that the interior three positions be brawlers who will not be shoved back into the QBs face [or worse].

3). Whereas his tackles will emphasize "dancing/punching" [as the Master ZMart demonstrated], his middle will be more like power wrestlers [sort of like Elmer should be]. These wrestlers do their dirty work standing more straight up than when in typical run block mode. So, in one way or the other, every lineman on a "Kelly Offense" line is engaging more in violent dancing than roothog forklifting.

4). So what will Harry do? He PROBABLY wants to find the best "dancers" he can get and get them as strong as possible, both for the wrestling in the middle and the snowplough Earth-moving on run plays. Who then will be these guys? They can't be at all clumsy.

Ronnie Stanley seems a natural Dancer-puncher --- not as good as ZMart but NOBODY is, maybe even in the NFL. Steve Elmer seems a natural Wrestler-brawler, and I believe will be to guard what Stanley is to tackle. After that I see no obvious choices, veterans or not. In theory, NMart should be a competent CENTER. Unless he had affecting injuries that he was carrying, he surprisingly seemed to cave too much at guard.

Knowing squat, I'd have a genuinely open competition for all the spots, but with a rather strong conviction that Ronnie and Steve were going to be two of them. Knowing even less than squat, I'd have a hunch that the other three guys would come from NMart, Nelson, McGlinchey, Bivin, Barrs, and Mustifer... I'd also wonder if Mustifer got a look at DLine, and I'd hope that Montelus did. If the spring indicated that Nelson, Bivin, and McGlinchey were running with Stanley and Elmer, I'd have naive optimism. McGlinchey seems to be able to quickly reach and punch, Bivin was an accomplished Basketball player, and Nelson has been ga-ga'd about as an elite stud. This line would still be REALLY tall, and if Everett was still back there, this might cause our well-known troubles, but not so much with Malik.

As to playing more than an Iron Five --- well, you just usually don't do it. But with veterans like NMart and Hegarty [if back] you might be able to get those sorts of knowledgeable guys in there, even though they had less practice reps. The trouble is, of course, getting guys like Barrs, Byrne, Mustifer, McGovern reps --- all of whom are probably better than, say Matt Hegarty [or Hanratty...should everybody be asked back, which is a Kelly character trait].

I cannot look at our OLine roster and see anything but VERY strong potential. As some have mentioned, ND recruits nearly all Tackles --- but so does everybody else who is a power program. ZMart proved that a great tackle can also be a great guard, and I must believe that Harry will find the right mix.
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
As with many other parts of the program, 2015 looks like a make or break year for the OL.

LT: Stanley
LG: Nelson
C: Martin
RG: Elmer
RT: McGlinchey

That's three three-year starters (Stanely, Martin, Elmer) and two guys with incredibly high ceilings. If that doesn't get it done I don't know what will.
 

Grahambo

Varsity Club Member
Messages
4,259
Reaction score
2,606
As with many other parts of the program, 2015 looks like a make or break year for the OL.

LT: Stanley
LG: Nelson
C: Martin
RG: Elmer
RT: McGlinchey

That's three three-year starters (Stanely, Martin, Elmer) and two guys with incredibly high ceilings. If that doesn't get it done I don't know what will.

Completely agree.
 

Booslum31

New member
Messages
5,687
Reaction score
187
My opinions [worth a nickel max]:
1). Kelly will still want to fling it more than pound it, and so will ask Coach Harry to emphasize a pass-blocking rather than a run-blocking philosophy --- of course Harry will do what he can both ways, but the HC will demand more work on pass than run.

2). This outlook then has consequences for Coach Harry. On the one hand he requires mobility, deftness of feet, quick first steps, and good initial punch, but, as we saw, he will also require that the interior three positions be brawlers who will not be shoved back into the QBs face [or worse].

3). Whereas his tackles will emphasize "dancing/punching" [as the Master ZMart demonstrated], his middle will be more like power wrestlers [sort of like Elmer should be]. These wrestlers do their dirty work standing more straight up than when in typical run block mode. So, in one way or the other, every lineman on a "Kelly Offense" line is engaging more in violent dancing than roothog forklifting.

4). So what will Harry do? He PROBABLY wants to find the best "dancers" he can get and get them as strong as possible, both for the wrestling in the middle and the snowplough Earth-moving on run plays. Who then will be these guys? They can't be at all clumsy.

Ronnie Stanley seems a natural Dancer-puncher --- not as good as ZMart but NOBODY is, maybe even in the NFL. Steve Elmer seems a natural Wrestler-brawler, and I believe will be to guard what Stanley is to tackle. After that I see no obvious choices, veterans or not. In theory, NMart should be a competent CENTER. Unless he had affecting injuries that he was carrying, he surprisingly seemed to cave too much at guard.

Knowing squat, I'd have a genuinely open competition for all the spots, but with a rather strong conviction that Ronnie and Steve were going to be two of them. Knowing even less than squat, I'd have a hunch that the other three guys would come from NMart, Nelson, McGlinchey, Bivin, Barrs, and Mustifer... I'd also wonder if Mustifer got a look at DLine, and I'd hope that Montelus did. If the spring indicated that Nelson, Bivin, and McGlinchey were running with Stanley and Elmer, I'd have naive optimism. McGlinchey seems to be able to quickly reach and punch, Bivin was an accomplished Basketball player, and Nelson has been ga-ga'd about as an elite stud. This line would still be REALLY tall, and if Everett was still back there, this might cause our well-known troubles, but not so much with Malik.

As to playing more than an Iron Five --- well, you just usually don't do it. But with veterans like NMart and Hegarty [if back] you might be able to get those sorts of knowledgeable guys in there, even though they had less practice reps. The trouble is, of course, getting guys like Barrs, Byrne, Mustifer, McGovern reps --- all of whom are probably better than, say Matt Hegarty [or Hanratty...should everybody be asked back, which is a Kelly character trait].

I cannot look at our OLine roster and see anything but VERY strong potential. As some have mentioned, ND recruits nearly all Tackles --- but so does everybody else who is a power program. ZMart proved that a great tackle can also be a great guard, and I must believe that Harry will find the right mix.

Good analysis OMM. Me thinks you played some O-line in your day. Having played D-Back in my day...it was always a mystery what the big guys were doing in the trenches. You help to clarify that for me. Thx.
 

Old Man Mike

Fast as Lightning!
Messages
8,965
Reaction score
6,453
It was three of my brothers who were Division One college linemen. They taught me.
 

Old Man Mike

Fast as Lightning!
Messages
8,965
Reaction score
6,453
Boosium: True dat. I developed elite quickness with a long dinner table reach. Became a 200+ pounder, but those guys all went around 300.

More to the point, Tom learned his football at Virginia Tech, Tim at ECU, and Terry at Cincinnati. Two started and the third was doing so until the dreaded ACL. They are VERY bright and "coach-quality" football analyzers. So... my comments are probably not completely bone-headed.
 

ozzman

Well-known member
Messages
1,526
Reaction score
1,597
Offensive line was lights out today. Once the stable matures and gains experience, they should be NASTY!
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
Offensive line was lights out today. Once the stable matures and gains experience, they should be NASTY!

Truth. They man-handled an SEC W DL today. I'll be lifting a glass in Harry's honor tonight. Really looking forward to the 2015 unit now.
 

Old Man Mike

Fast as Lightning!
Messages
8,965
Reaction score
6,453
Best thing that has happened is that McGlinchey has proved that he is ready.

Best thing that could NOW happen is that Ronnie decides NOT to try for the NFL.

Best thing that could happen on IE would be that the Hiestand naysayers, and the crap slingers about our big guys being soft, would just shut up.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
Best thing that could NOW happen is that Ronnie decides NOT to try for the NFL.

In case you missed it, earlier on Twitter someone reported that Stanley did not receive a 1st round grade from the draft board, and is expected to return. But we heard the same thing about Niklas, so take it with a grain of salt.
 

dad4aa

Well-known member
Messages
3,754
Reaction score
741
Best thing that has happened is that McGlinchey has proved that he is ready.

Best thing that could NOW happen is that Ronnie decides NOT to try for the NFL.

Best thing that could happen on IE would be that the Hiestand naysayers, and the crap slingers about our big guys being soft, would just shut up.

Amen to that!!!
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
In case you missed it, earlier on Twitter someone reported that Stanley did not receive a 1st round grade from the draft board, and is expected to return. But we heard the same thing about Niklas, so take it with a grain of salt.

I would think that Stanley's chances of making the first round with another year are much better than Niklas' though. That should factor into it.
 
Top