Offensive Line Thread

[Dizzyphil]

When trying to read the tea leaves, can anything be read from the FSU game?

With 12 min left in the 4th, Quinn sent in Grunhard at OC & Lugg at LG and kicked Banks out to LT

On the next series at with 6 min remaining, the same crew took the field then at 3:45 Gibbons was subbed in for Kraemer at RG.

Finally at the 3:00 mark, Patterson subbed in for Banks at LT, Logan Plantz came in at LG kicking Lugg out to RT replacing Hainsey.

I found this along with the Depth Charts showing Grunhard ahead of Ruhland interesting enough to make a profile for Grunhard.

Grunhard looked really good. And was behind the Jones-Push 16 yard. Here --> https://youtu.be/holMcwGg7Ec?t=8173

Since posting earlier about Grunhard, and now that the Turkey is settled on the grill - did some research on the kid myself. Grunhard is going to put up some competition for a spot. Watched your link too. Excitement blocks but, he held his own and made a path.



PWOs getting some attention around here.

 

[EddytoNow]

The comment on next year's OLine mentioned Hainsey, Kraemer, and Banks, but of course Eichenberg should be in that sentence too. If the Universe makes sense, that (obviously again) means four pretty good starters returning and striving to find a Center.

Ruhland has trained at Center. Lugg probably REALLY wants to start, and has been praised as a very good OLineman, though not in terms of Center. And we have guys in the pipeline.

So, to my seeing, the only question is who plays Center? Ruhland? Lugg? Hainsey moves? New guy? If Lugg could adapt we'd probably get back to having a Top Ten OLine again next year. Book's health will be safe.

Thanks, Old Man Mike. I don't know how I could have left Eichenberg off my list of returning offensive linemen. He should be a big part of next year's o-line.

Offensive line recruiting has been one of our strengths. They will be fine under Coach Quinn's direction. Part of the beauty of this year's offense is its balance. When other teams stack their defense to limit our running ability, the passing game has been very effective, due in large part to Book's accuracy and the protection the o-line has provided him. The difference between the team the last two years and previous years is that opposing teams have to respect our running game. It may not be dominant every game, but other teams have to defend it. You no longer see teams dropping everyone into pass coverage and daring us to run the ball.

 

[Sea Turtle]

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ncaaol

good on talent (stars), bad on performance this year

Thanks. If we are ever going to win another title, we have to go through Alabama. We need to be able to match up offensively and defensively.

 

[koonja]

I think Kramer could be a dominant center. And he'd have to pull less in that case.

And that gets Lugg at RG.

 

[ResLife Hero]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">RELEASE—The Joe Moore Award has announced the 2018 Finalists. Congratulations to the 3 deserving offensive lines. <a href="https://t.co/9FH5a658ig">https://t.co/9FH5a658ig</a></p>— The Joe Moore Award (@JoeMooreAward) <a href="https://twitter.com/JoeMooreAward/status/1069984680076894208?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 4, 2018</a></blockquote>
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No repeat.

 

[BeatSC]

How would we be if Harry had stayed? Not much talk about that and he has improved the Bears line as well.

 

[Luckylucci]

If there is one position group that I think should benefit the most from this much time off is the OL. One to get fully healthy and two to work on some fundamentals. We'll see if Quinn with the extra time can get them playing up another level.

 

[ResLife Hero]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">FILM ROOM: The 2019 Oline class for <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NotreDame?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#NotreDame</a> is outstanding; it is one of the nation's best. My latest film room breaks down the senior film of the talented OL class. Updated rankings are also provided.<a href="https://t.co/qzOJ73CclN">https://t.co/qzOJ73CclN</a></p>— Bryan Driskell (@BGI_CoachD) <a href="https://twitter.com/BGI_CoachD/status/1074663642472349697?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 17, 2018</a></blockquote>
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[NDMIA]

I listened to both the BGI podcast and the ISD podcast and thought they were interesting in their takes on the offensive line. They both mentioned how this OLine class is one of the best in the country and one of the best ever for Notre Dame which I tend to agree with. They both mentioned how they needed to rebound after the 2018 class had a down year in terms of talent. I really don't like how they mention that because ND had plenty of chances with some of the best talent in the 2018 class but simply lost recruiting battles. I do think there were around 40 4* caliber dudes in the 2018 class versus 50 or so in the 2019 class, but they still had some advantages with some guys, but never were able to overcome Harry Hiestand leaving and Jeff Quinn getting so little time to make up ground.

.9963 5* 6'5'' 290 Nicholas Petit-Frere - Ivy league level academics for this kid, visited ND twice, had CB's, and picked Ohio State
.9956 5* 6'4'' 325 Jamaree Salyer - visited ND 3 times for unofficial visits, had ND OV scheduled and probably paid a king's ransom to not show up and eliminated ND
.9894 5* 6'5'' 345 Jackson Carman - 4 hour drive from campus, visited a few times, showed a willingness to leave the state of ohio lol
.9869 5* 6'6'' 320 Cade Mays - 7h30m away from campus, never managed to get to campus
.9496 4* 6'3'' 340 Emil Ekiyor - Wonder if Jeff Quinn would've taken him
.9449 4* 6'7'' 310 Tommy Brown - Visited twice unofficially in a span of two months, had family with ND ties, and never got a sniff from ND
.9119 4* 6'2'' 300 Chris Murray - same HS as Tommy Brown, visited for the USC game
.9070 4* 6'4'' 305 Warren Ericson - visited ND, not too much materialized
.9062 4* 6'5'' 295 Jalen Mayfield - visited for the ND spring game and not one coach came up to meet with him
.8958 4* 6'7'' 270 Ryan Hayes - basketball/football player in high school, visited several times, ended up as a blocking TE at Michigan
.8917 4* 6'5'' 340 Finn Dirstine - visited ND, never offered, NDCrusader's favorite which is all I need to know

Plenty of guys liked ND a lot, were within the regional area to visit a lot, and were academic fits for ND. Not saying every single guy would have chosen Notre Dame if Harry Hiestand was around for the whole cycle or if Jeff Quinn was around for the whole cycle, but ND simply lost a lot of recruiting battles for top offensive lineman in 2018. In 2019, they didn't and they ended up having one of the best offensive line classes in the entire country. To blame the talent coming out of high school though is annoying because ND had their chances and got 15-20 of the top 50 composite offensive lineman in the 247 rankings and came away with one who is in the 2 deep as a freshman

 

[NDVirginia19]

I think last year's weak OL class is really going to help us get some studs to come in for 2020.

 

[BobbyMac]

I listened to both the BGI podcast and the ISD podcast and thought they were interesting in their takes on the offensive line. They both mentioned how this OLine class is one of the best in the country and one of the best ever for Notre Dame which I tend to agree with. They both mentioned how they needed to rebound after the 2018 class had a down year in terms of talent. I really don't like how they mention that because ND had plenty of chances with some of the best talent in the 2018 class but simply lost recruiting battles. I do think there were around 40 4* caliber dudes in the 2018 class versus 50 or so in the 2019 class, but they still had some advantages with some guys, but never were able to overcome Harry Hiestand leaving and Jeff Quinn getting so little time to make up ground.

.9963 5* 6'5'' 290 Nicholas Petit-Frere - Maybe comes to 12-0 ND
.9956 5* 6'4'' 325 Jamaree Salyer - Always headed to UGA
.9894 5* 6'5'' 345 Jackson Carman - Was never an ND guy
.9869 5* 6'6'' 320 Cade Mays - No interest in ND

.9496 4* 6'3'' 340 Emil Ekiyor - Got away. Would've been ND's starting OC next year

.9449 4* 6'7'' 310 Tommy Brown - ND ties but was a Bama legacy. All Bama soon as they offered
.9119 4* 6'2'' 300 Chris Murray - Would've been ND but was too small. Rather have who they got. Is starting at UCLA cuz of injuries
.9070 4* 6'4'' 305 Warren Ericson - Buried OC at UGA, rather have Ekiyor
.9062 4* 6'5'' 295 Jalen Mayfield - Always had Michigan #1
.8958 4* 6'7'' 270 Ryan Hayes - Project OT or just what MI is using him for.

.8917 4* 6'5'' 340 Finn Dirstine - Got away... but maybe Dirksen is just as good? The love is still strong.

Plenty of guys liked ND a lot, were within the regional area to visit a lot, and were academic fits for ND. Not saying every single guy would have chosen Notre Dame if Harry Hiestand was around for the whole cycle or if Jeff Quinn was around for the whole cycle, but ND simply lost a lot of recruiting battles for top offensive lineman in 2018. In 2019, they didn't and they ended up having one of the best offensive line classes in the entire country. To blame the talent coming out of high school though is annoying because ND had their chances and got 15-20 of the top 50 composite offensive lineman in the 247 rankings and came away with one who is in the 2 deep as a freshman

To complain about the 2017 OL class is a play strictly on ratings by guys employed by the ratings companies. Who knows how good they are yet? Every year, Iowa, MSU, Wis, even IU... send former 3* OG/C's from the midwest to the NFL that ND could've had if they'd simply gone after them. HH had a problem with sub 6-4 linemen not named Mustipher.

And if there is a problem with the class it's ALL on HH. It was all Quinn could do to tie up his loose ends and land Patterson who is the only one they NEED to pop out of the haul. If they get a starting year out of Jones or Dirksen, it's a bonus.

 

[Luckylucci]

I think last year's weak OL class is really going to help us get some studs to come in for 2020.

That probably helped 19’ im not sure what it has to do with 20’. They’re still coming in behind 19’.

I also think the 18’ is being sold short. Rave reviews from Patterson and he was a much bigger recruiting win than some might realize. Dirksen got pretty decent reviews early. And Luke Jones looks like a grown ass man and he moved pretty well in HS. Michigan tried to make a run at Jones last cycle but he didn’t give them the time of day.

I don’t think these guys plan on rolling over.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Murtaugh just published an analysis of why our OL was so bad in 2018:

So, if we assume reducing stuffs should be priority number one for the off-season how do things get better besides generically assuming linemen will improve with more experience and 4 starters returning?

Would more of an extra tight end help? Does more Brock Wright as a H-back help? Or, should the offense spread out more? Was there a disconnect on a play like the outside zone? Were the Irish really poor at pulling linemen and allowing exposed gaps? Does the read option need more work?

One of the things about the offensive line is it’s so intertwined with the offense as a whole that it’s difficult to understand improvement without focusing on other players. For example, how much blame gets put on the running backs for the offensive line performance in 2018? This past season was probably the worst in recent memory for running backs with strong lateral ability, jump-cutting into holes, and shedding free tacklers.

This is what worries me the most about the offensive line going into 2019. Losing Josh Adams’ explosiveness hurt (36.0% and 37.8% stuffs his last 2 years on 2,363 yards by the way, still an underappreciated talent even given the OL talent in front of him) and losing Dexter Williams’ explosiveness will be a further blow. Having Jafar Armstrong and Tony Jones stepping up into that void after logging 44.4% and 46.9% stuff rates in 2018 respectively (the 2 worst marks from 2016-18 for main ball carriers) is very worrisome. Neither has displayed the ability to make guys miss and overcome extra tacklers the way the top backs in the country are able to do and I will guess that if someone in that group doesn’t take a huge leap the running game will not be that good. Due to their pedigree and experience I can see the offensive linemen getting better (although center hangs in the balance!) but it’s a tougher sell at running back.

 

[BobbyMac]

In spite of the troubles, 2019-2021 will be the best 3 year OL recruiting run in my lifetime. All killer, no filler.

 

[Irish YJ]

In spite of the troubles, 2019-2021 will be the best 3 year OL recruiting run in my lifetime. All killer, no filler.

 

[NDMIA]

Murtaugh just published an analysis of why our OL was so bad in 2018:

Simple, get a top rated running back in the class of 2020 and every cycle following that. 2019 is going to be tough because we have a limited 3* Tony Jones Jr. and a WR 3* convert in Jafar Armstrong with two lowly rated 3* runningbacks in Jahmir Smith and C'Bo Flemister coming up behind. On top of that ND has Avery Davis who is still more of a QB/WR than RB. Kyren Williams is the only legit 4* on the roster who was recruited as runningback. Hopefully Kyren is the first of many 4* recruited runningbacks who play the RB position. An example of solid runningback recruiting is Penn State. 4 out of their 5 scholarship guys next year will be 4* recruits. They aren't a better academic school, they don't have better tradition, and they don't have way way better facilities than ND. ND needs to be able to at least match Penn State's recruiting prowess at the runningback position. It starts with hiring a dynamite recruiter at the position which Penn State has in Ja'Juan Seider, but they also need the whole staff to make the RB position a priority in recruiting because it can change the fortunes of the program. Dexter Williams & Josh Adams did that at ND and look where it got them.

Penn State
.9079 4* RS SO CJ Holmes
.8472 3* RS SO Journey Brown
.9853 4* SO Ricky Slade
.9643 4* FR Devyn Ford
.9568 4* FR Noah Cain

Notre Dame
.8926 3* RS JR Tony Jones Jr.
.9078 4* RS SO Avery Davis
.8709 3* RS SO Jafar Armstrong
.8721 3* RS FR Jahmir Smith
.8456 3* RS FR C'Bo Flemister
.8918 4* FR Kyren Williams

 

[Crazy Balki]

Not all that concerned.

Armstrong is very underrated and has the athleticism to turn into an all-around dynamic back. He and Tony were given a pretty raw deal. Armstrong still learning the position early in the season, then only to get hurt as he was finding his stride and then to come back with Dexter having taken hold of the starting job. As for Tony, dude has to stay healthy. Christ man, this dude's ankles have been the absolute death of him the last 2 years.

 

[BobbyMac]

I'm not sure what that is but on my lil flip phone it looks like lottery balls. I'm gonna run with that.

 

[Irish YJ]

I'm not sure what that is but on my lil flip phone it looks like lottery balls. I'm gonna run with that.

it's an egg counter

 

[Crazy Balki]

I'm not sure what that is but on my lil flip phone it looks like lottery balls. I'm gonna run with that.

I think it's suppose to be a "counting chickens before they hatch" gif.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Not all that concerned.

Armstrong is very underrated and has the athleticism to turn into an all-around dynamic back. He and Tony were given a pretty raw deal. Armstrong still learning the position early in the season, then only to get hurt as he was finding his stride and then to come back with Dexter having taken hold of the starting job. As for Tony, dude has to stay healthy. Christ man, this dude's ankles have been the absolute death of him the last 2 years.

Wasn't he also hurt in the spring or in summer camp too?

 

[Domina Nostra]

Murtaugh just published an analysis of why our OL was so bad in 2018:

If we don't get that cleaned up. We have a clear ceiling: 12-1; College Playoff loss to NC; #5 ranking.

I get it that the OL was not great this year, but this is how every analysis sounds to me:

"Granted thye lost:
- An all-time great OG, who is a top 3 OG in the NFL as a Rookie
- A top 10 draft pick starting at Tackle for the 49ers
- The most effective running QB since Tony Rice
- An NFL-caliber RB
- The most experienced and highly-rated OL on the team in week 3...

BUT . . . [goes on to downplay/ignore all of that as if "granted" was a magic word, or as if the obvious explanation is just an "excuse"] . . ."

As noted, we were bound for a HUGE dropoff this year. And even that epic line from last year did not move the ball against UGA, and laid and egg in the Miami game.

People can compare us to Alabama all day, and say, "They get it done every year."

But the key is the THEY. Their OLine looks great, IN LARGE PART, because that whole team is so darn good, there are no weaknesses that anyone except Clemson can exploit. When you are perfectly balanced and totally stacked on Defense, WR, and RB (and now QB), it makes the line's job a TON easier.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

But the key is the THEY. Their OLine looks great, IN LARGE PART, because that whole team is so darn good, there are no weaknesses that anyone except Clemson can exploit. When you are perfectly balanced and totally stacked on Defense, WR, and RB (and now QB), it makes the line's job a TON easier.

That's fair, as far as it goes. But our OL under Hiestand was the one unit on the team where we were both recruiting and producing at a level comparable to 'Bama and Clemson. If we could keep that up and properly scheme around it (and our TEs) as the foundation of our offense, we'd have a chance to really make some noise. Thus, when our ALY fell off a cliff as soon as Hiestand left, the alarm had more to do with losing far too much ground with our most important offensive unit than overreacting to a reasonable regression due to the departure of Q and McG.

 

[Old Man Mike]

To Whiskey's original post: AMEN.

I've been preaching that my analyses of play-by-play indicates (to my eye, OK) that our OLine while not Q/McG level wasn't that bad at all. LOTS of the so-called busts have been bad RB play --- both mediocre running instincts and aggression, and, even moreso picking up the right blitz --- and mediocre blocking by WRs (especially) but even TEs.

My "hope" (yes, I'm a romantic) is that Hainsey, Kraemer, Banks, and Eichenberg find one more buddy and someone steps up to play center, and we will then have an OLine worthy to be named in Aaron Taylor's list. I don't want to say bad things about a great warrior for us, but when you watch the snaps closely, we broke down more through Mustipher getting bulled backwards than any other kind of OLineman breakage. All honor to Sam, but that happened way too often and flattened the pocket very awkwardly for Ian.

We need a true bull at center. I don't know if any of our returning four can or will do it, but it's not "just" a center we need but someone to help Big Tommy and Aaron keep the inner cup clean. Then Ian will be able to step up safely and take a fraction more time (one needs that for the so-called failure of long passing skill to have a honest chance of proving fans wrong.)

My crazy-optimism for 2019 says we'll be really good on the Oline and with blocking oriented TE play, and good slot play and WR play, and, if we can find a better-than-just-good RB, Ian will have the Ammunition to make us extremely difficult to deal with offensively.

... now can somebody please clone Tillery, Love, Tranquill, and Coney? That's what I worry about.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I tend to think HH was under-rated at first, and over-rated later.

HH had some not so great years recruiting, IMO. His reputation for being interested in elite players, and not very interested in non-elite players seemed to be reflected in his recruiting classes:

2013: 5 man class: Elmer, McGlinchey, Biven, Montelus, McGovern (at the time: great talent, great numbers. In retrospect 1 blue chipper, 1 starter, 3 bench) (A+/A-)
2014: 3 man class: Nelson, Bars, Mustipher (excellent talent, bad numbers) (A-/A)
2015: 2-man class: Hoge and Ruhland (mediocre talent, terrible numbers) (C-/D)
2016: 3 man class: Kraemer, Eichenberg, Boudreaux (good talent, bad numbers and we really needed numbers) (B/B)
2017: 4 man class (good talent, good numbers, but those following remember that Banks was totally unexpected and saved this class) (A/?)
2018: 4 man class (mediocre talent, good numbers, might have finished differently had he stayed) (C+/?)

HH genius seemed to be teaching high-talent players to do the little things right. If I were an elite player looking to go to the NFL, he was as good as they come. If I was not, I definitely would have considered going elsewhere because a 5-star freshman was going to jump me without a doubt.

And I don't remember feeling like we had some kind of monster rushing attack any year he was here. 2017 had great stats, and a bunch of HUGE games against the normal competition, but we certainly weren't running on the great defenses.

So was HH the best OLine coach since Moore at ND. Yes. But I don't think the McGlinchy-Nelson left side of the 2017 line represented some kind of natural progeression.

 

[ulukinatme]

I think Warriner did a great job with getting the OL back on their feet when he came in, although he didn't do crap when it came to recruiting. Things started to turn around in the trenches when he came on board, and if you look at his other stops he's done a good job there as well. Harry had the recruiting down most years, and while the run blocking wasn't as proficient as it was under Warriner (Save for maybe 2017 with the Nelson/McGlinchy combo), Harry was far better with pass protection.

Gotta agree with OMM too on Mustipher. He gave great effort, and he was captain worthy, but he certainly struggled at times throughout his career. Some botched snaps in 2016 against Texas really set a bad tone in a game we were already struggling in, that wasn't particularly a great season for him. He had some big shoes to fill following NMart at Center, but you have to hold your own in the center of the line.

 

[stlnd01]

I tend to think HH was under-rated at first, and over-rated later.

HH had some not so great years recruiting, IMO. His reputation for being interested in elite players, and not very interested in non-elite players seemed to be reflected in his recruiting classes:

2013: 5 man class: Elmer, McGlinchey, Biven, Montelus, McGovern (at the time: great talent, great numbers. In retrospect 1 blue chipper, 1 starter, 3 bench) (A+/A-)
2014: 3 man class: Nelson, Bars, Mustipher (excellent talent, bad numbers) (A-/A)
2015: 2-man class: Hoge and Ruhland (mediocre talent, terrible numbers) (C-/D)
2016: 3 man class: Kraemer, Eichenberg, Boudreaux (good talent, bad numbers and we really needed numbers) (B/B)
2017: 4 man class (good talent, good numbers, but those following remember that Banks was totally unexpected and saved this class) (A/?)
2018: 4 man class (mediocre talent, good numbers, might have finished differently had he stayed) (C+/?)

Just me, or do a lot of our current concerns boil down to these two recruiting classes? Only landed five guys. We've lost two of them to transfers. Only two became multi-year starters.

 

[ResLife Hero]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NotreDame?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#NotreDame</a>'s smallest starting offensive lineman is 6-foot-5, 298 pounds, and also its most experienced. That kind of size is exactly what Chip Long looks for -- <a href="https://t.co/umjnlXiOek">https://t.co/umjnlXiOek</a></p>— Notre Dame on NBC (@NDonNBC) <a href="https://twitter.com/NDonNBC/status/1106540553859039232?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 15, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Old Man Mike]

The NBC article is only mildly surprising to me and leaves me with upward positive feelings about the coming OLine.

The mild surprise is Long's clearly seeing Hainsey as his best player (totally on offense.) That is great of course, and it means that the successful defensive outside pressures were judged not his fault --- they must have been "credited" to bad RB pick-ups or something else.

Though Long also clearly says Big Tommy wasn't fast enough last season, his take on Kraemer this year is really positive. Most of that was overt praise, but the hidden hint of this is when he talks of Eichenberg and Banks having to get it together better on the left side "because it cannot only be the right." Between those lines he is saying that Hainsey/Kraemer are going to be really good over there, and Eichenberg/Banks need to match them.

That has been also my take. I am high on Banks period, and Eichenberg due to faith in what tends to happen with a stud who gets a good year under his belt. If Patterson is anything like what seems to be hinted for him, this is going to be a kick@ss OLine and our degree of happiness in the team will depend upon RBs and pass catchers. (might be nice if some of them blocked downfield once in a while too.)

 

[Irish YJ]

The NBC article is only mildly surprising to me and leaves me with upward positive feelings about the coming OLine.

The mild surprise is Long's clearly seeing Hainsey as his best player (totally on offense.) That is great of course, and it means that the successful defensive outside pressures were judged not his fault --- they must have been "credited" to bad RB pick-ups or something else.

Though Long also clearly says Big Tommy wasn't fast enough last season, his take on Kraemer this year is really positive. Most of that was overt praise, but the hidden hint of this is when he talks of Eichenberg and Banks having to get it together better on the left side "because it cannot only be the right." Between those lines he is saying that Hainsey/Kraemer are going to be really good over there, and Eichenberg/Banks need to match them.

That has been also my take. I am high on Banks period, and Eichenberg due to faith in what tends to happen with a stud who gets a good year under his belt. If Patterson is anything like what seems to be hinted for him, this is going to be a kick@ss OLine and our degree of happiness in the team will depend upon RBs and pass catchers. (might be nice if some of them blocked downfield once in a while too.)

always hating on the RBs....