Offensive Line Thread

[Irish#1]

Sampson is reporting a potential change with Banks at LG and Ruhland at RG.

 

[greyhammer90]

Sampson is reporting a potential change with Banks at LG and Ruhland at RG.

While Banks has more upside than Ruhland, I'd bet this has more to do with getting Tommy off the field than getting Banks on it. Tommy's issues are concerning.

 

[longliveautrydenson]

Sampson is reporting a potential change with Banks at LG and Ruhland at RG.

This is welcome news. If Banks seizes this opportunity and Eichenberg continues to improve, the left side of our line could be set for 2019 and 2020.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

While Banks has more upside than Ruhland, I'd bet this has more to do with getting Tommy off the field than getting Banks on it. Tommy's issues are concerning.

It kind of sucks for Tommy, though, since I think his major issue would be mostly irrelevant at right tackle. I wonder why Hainsey hasn't been considered for a guard role? A lineup of Eichenberg-Banks-Mustipher-Hainsey-Kramer makes sense to me but I'm no expert on the OL.

 

[fightingirish26]

It kind of sucks for Tommy, though, since I think his major issue would be mostly irrelevant at right tackle. I wonder why Hainsey hasn't been considered for a guard role? A lineup of Eichenberg-Banks-Mustipher-Hainsey-Kramer makes sense to me but I'm no expert on the OL.

Feels like every OL we recruit is graded as an OT coming out of high school, and then we move them to the inside accordingly. There's maybe two OL on the roster that were graded as interior lineman (Ruhland+Hainsey) and one of them is our starting RT. And not doing particularly well. Kind of baffling.

 

[IrishLax]

Feels like every OL we recruit is graded as an OT coming out of high school, and then we move them to the inside accordingly. There's maybe two OL on the roster that were graded as interior lineman (Ruhland+Hainsey) and one of them is our starting RT. And not doing particularly well. Kind of baffling.

I agree wholeheartedly. FFS, Josh Lugg is 6'7" and they were playing him at guard earlier in the season. Mustipher, Rhuland, Hainsey were clear guard prospects because of their height and wingspan. One is a tackle right now, the other two are playing on the inside.

Here is the "OT" recruiting of guys currently on the roster --
Alex Bars - #10 OT - Played guard at an extremely high level, NFL prospect.
Tommy Kraemer - #3 OT - Plays guard, not quick on his feet, been injured, not currently an NFL prospect.
Liam Eichenberg - #7 OT - Plays left tackle, not currently an NFL prospect.
Josh Lugg - #15 OT - Has gotten snaps at guard.
Aaron Banks - #17 OT - Starting at guard this week.
Dillan Gibbons - #38 OT - Has not played.
Jarret Patterson - #25 OT - True frosh.
John Dirksen - #42 OT - True frosh.
Luke Jones - #43 OT - True frosh.
Cole Mabry - #54 OT - True frosh.

That's from 2014 through the 2018 class. One crazy thing I had never realized, we didn't sign a single OT in the 2015 class. In the 2016 class -- so currently juniors -- we signed Eichenberg and Kraemer. We had better depth of recruiting in 2017 and 2018 (though worse rated players overall) but those guys are all young.

So after review, there are only three guys between the '14, '15, and '16 classes (e.g. upperclassmen) that were viewed as OT prospects coming out of HS and are currently on the roster. One is hurt, one plays guard and is also kinda hurt, and the other is our LT. The lack of developed depth at the tackle position is sort of crazy.

Our OL last year was an elite LT, an elite LG, a very good C, a very good RG, and a below average RT.

Our OL currently is a below average LT, a below average LG, a very good C, a below-average-because-injury RG, and a below-average-because-injury RT.

Yikes. The good news is that everything but LT is probably fixable with some substitutions or people getting healthy. There is no contingency plan at LT except Eichenberg playing better.

 

[Luckylucci]

It kind of sucks for Tommy, though, since I think his major issue would be mostly irrelevant at right tackle. I wonder why Hainsey hasn't been considered for a guard role? A lineup of Eichenberg-Banks-Mustipher-Hainsey-Kramer makes sense to me but I'm no expert on the OL.

I think Kraemer's major issue is lack of mobility, now some of that is due to injury but this was brought up over the Spring by all that watched practices. I realize he wouldn't need to pull as much playing RT but he'd be on the edge where mobility is even more magnified in the pass game. I don't think that's the right idea. I think, for now, they've got it right by making the substitution until he's healthy. Then putting him back in at RG.

 

[Wild Bill]

Feels like every OL we recruit is graded as an OT coming out of high school, and then we move them to the inside accordingly. There's maybe two OL on the roster that were graded as interior lineman (Ruhland+Hainsey) and one of them is our starting RT. And not doing particularly well. Kind of baffling.

And oddly enough, the best tackle they've had, Martin, would have been a better guard. I guess you can play wherever you want when you are dominant.

I think Kraemer's major issue is lack of mobility, now some of that is due to injury but this was brought up over the Spring by all that watched practices. I realize he wouldn't need to pull as much playing RT but he'd be on the edge where mobility is even more magnified in the pass game. I don't think that's the right idea. I think, for now, they've got it right by making the substitution until he's healthy. Then putting him back in at RG.

Exactly. He just hasn't shown he has sufficient mobility, flexibility, and athleticism to be consistent with his kick step on five step drops. Imagine him trying to block an athletic edge rusher like Okwara for an entire game. It wouldn't be pretty.

 

[IrishLax]

I think Kraemer's major issue is lack of mobility, now some of that is due to injury but this was brought up over the Spring by all that watched practices. I realize he wouldn't need to pull as much playing RT but he'd be on the edge where mobility is even more magnified in the pass game. I don't think that's the right idea. I think, for now, they've got it right by making the substitution until he's healthy. Then putting him back in at RG.

Here's an inconvenient fact though... Kraemer graded out better as a RT last year than Hainsey did by PFF. He was way better as a run blocker, and only a little worse in pass protection. They slotted him in at RG to be a "mauler" but with his ankle injury and what they've been trying to do it just really hasn't been working. I just have no clue why Hainsey is the RT and has been the RT since he was a true frosh... he does not have the build of a tackle, nor has he played particularly well.

 

[koonja]

What a luxury to have a veteran who can handle LG or RG and swap either side on the fly. He's not a mauler but he doesn't miss any more assignments than any of the other OL who are starting.

 

[NDIrish88]

Yeahwhy can't Lugg start at RT? Seems like a fit.

 

[BobbyMac]

I think Quinn will reevaluate and reassign guys before next season. HH had his way of playing who he thought was the best 5 regardless if that meant taking them from where they fit best down the road. Quinn inherited those assignments in a year when he was losing one of the best OL tandems in CFB history. I can see where the smart move was to plug in around two 5th years where the new guys had been training with the intent to find where guys belong long term... Like Lugg going back to OT eventually.

The other thing I thionk you'll see is Quinn's readiness to recruit guys who are no brainer OT's... not the swing OL's who are highly rated HS OT's that you know will end up sliding inside. HH had a bunch of them and chased relatively few Ronnie Stanley/McG types.

Quinn in his short time has gone after a lot long/athletic/basketball types, as a %, much more so that HH. If you look at his '20 & '21 offers, the majority are 6-6+ with plenty of 6-7 & 6-8 guys. Lets all remember that Quinn knows the value of a TE that outgrows his position. He was the OL coach that saw Joe Staley's transformation from a HS WR/Flex into a college TE to an All-World College/NFL LT.

 

[Irish#1]

While Banks has more upside than Ruhland, I'd bet this has more to do with getting Tommy off the field than getting Banks on it. Tommy's issues are concerning.

Are you speaking strictly about playing health and performance?

 

[Old Man Mike]

Kraemer at RG this season has been pretty good on Pass Protection. His side of the interior cup has been much more consistently held true than the left side. This paradoxically causes Book troubles, as he senses the outside rush and "sees" the Kraemer side holding up and instinctively begins to step up, only to find that either the LG/C or the LT/LG gap has broken (or an unblocked blitz is coming). He then wildly tries to spin out of that miss-step (often thankfully succeeding.)

Again, as I've repeated ad nauseum, the RB/TE support services tend to be worse than the OL and it is the blitzing that is causing the worst of the troubles.

Also, as I noted last season, for at least the first two-thirds of the season, ND scored far more when Kraemer was in the game and not during Hainsey's shifts at their time-share RT situation. I believe that the staff is impressed with Hainsey's quick feet (relatively) and believe that when he grows into full man-muscle he will be able not only to "dance" but "punch" like a good tackle should. The big mystery to me is why he wasn't slotted for LT this season over Eichenberg. I get moving Tommy to Guard if you believe that Eichenberg will get there, but if there's doubt, I thought that Hainsey LT and Kraemer RT with Lugg or Banks at RG was a possibility. I never saw Ruhland as a starter because of power deficits. But they know better than I do.

 

[StPaul_Irish]

Kraemer at RG this season has been pretty good on Pass Protection. His side of the interior cup has been much more consistently held true than the left side. This paradoxically causes Book troubles, as he senses the outside rush and "sees" the Kraemer side holding up and instinctively begins to step up, only to find that either the LG/C or the LT/LG gap has broken (or an unblocked blitz is coming). He then wildly tries to spin out of that miss-step (often thankfully succeeding.)

Again, as I've repeated ad nauseum, the RB/TE support services tend to be worse than the OL and it is the blitzing that is causing the worst of the troubles.

Also, as I noted last season, for at least the first two-thirds of the season, ND scored far more when Kraemer was in the game and not during Hainsey's shifts at their time-share RT situation. I believe that the staff is impressed with Hainsey's quick feet (relatively) and believe that when he grows into full man-muscle he will be able not only to "dance" but "punch" like a good tackle should. The big mystery to me is why he wasn't slotted for LT this season over Eichenberg. I get moving Tommy to Guard if you believe that Eichenberg will get there, but if there's doubt, I thought that Hainsey LT and Kraemer RT with Lugg or Banks at RG was a possibility. I never saw Ruhland as a starter because of power deficits. But they know better than I do.

RH was slotted to be the LT even as far back as last year. Chip Long was on record saying so. They tried him their and it just wasn't a fit. CBK was then on the record saying they wanted more length at LT and Eichenberg was a monster and earned that spot.

As far was RH being a tackle, it has been said a million times by the staff that his technique was SO GOOD they couldn't keep him off the field, and has great feet for a tackle

 

[IrishLax]

Think about this crazy fact from the Kelly era... the LT for his entire tenure has been an *ELITE* NFL caliber lineman.

ZMart -> Ronnie Stanley -> Mike McGlinchey. Nothing but top NFL draft picks. We have been absolutely spoiled at that position. I'm not sure if there is an "heir apparent" on the current roster... do we have anyone of that quality/upside to be a top 10ish NFL draft pick?

 

[zelezo vlk]

Think about this crazy fact from the Kelly era... the LT for his entire tenure has been an *ELITE* NFL caliber lineman.

ZMart -> Ronnie Stanley -> Mike McGlinchey. Nothing but top NFL draft picks. We have been absolutely spoiled at that position. I'm not sure if there is an "heir apparent" on the current roster... do we have anyone of that quality/upside to be a top 10ish NFL draft pick?

People are super high on Aaron Banks, but can he play tackle? Idk how people feel about Patterson

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Think about this crazy fact from the Kelly era... the LT for his entire tenure has been an *ELITE* NFL caliber lineman.

ZMart -> Ronnie Stanley -> Mike McGlinchey. Nothing but top NFL draft picks. We have been absolutely spoiled at that position. I'm not sure if there is an "heir apparent" on the current roster... do we have anyone of that quality/upside to be a top 10ish NFL draft pick?

Not as of right now but it's too early to tell. All of those players not named ZMart had growing pains in their first years as starters. Hell, Big Mike gave up the sack that sealed the Georgia game his final year.

We have a relatively young line, we're used to seniors/5th years making up the line and this year we have one player that meets that criteria(after the Bars injury).

We're young and developing. I don't know if we have the answer for OL coach but I won't go so far as to put a ceiling on the coach or players as of yet. They may be our undoing this year and I still won't go that far, I'll be disappointed the one year we finally have all the other pieces, our OL drops but that happens every year for every team.

Hopefully Quinn can find answers for us.

 

[Wild Bill]

Think about this crazy fact from the Kelly era... the LT for his entire tenure has been an *ELITE* NFL caliber lineman.

ZMart -> Ronnie Stanley -> Mike McGlinchey. Nothing but top NFL draft picks. We have been absolutely spoiled at that position. I'm not sure if there is an "heir apparent" on the current roster... do we have anyone of that quality/upside to be a top 10ish NFL draft pick?

George Takacs gains 40lbs or so and takes over at LT in fall camp next year.

Wishful thinking but he has the frame and athleticism to be a pretty damn good LT.

 

[BobbyMac]

Think about this crazy fact from the Kelly era... the LT for his entire tenure has been an *ELITE* NFL caliber lineman.

ZMart -> Ronnie Stanley -> Mike McGlinchey. Nothing but top NFL draft picks. We have been absolutely spoiled at that position. I'm not sure if there is an "heir apparent" on the current roster... do we have anyone of that quality/upside to be a top 10ish NFL draft pick?

Whoi really knows. Did anyone think that McG was going to be Top 10 pick? He had early (and even a few late) struggles.

Patterson's highlights were really really good against well coached and talented programs. He's got a shot but he's "just" 6-5.

The one that confuses me is Lugg. A LOT of guys who know their stuff thought he was the #2 or #3 OL the week of The Opening behind Walker Little and swapping spots with Foster Sarrell... some days he was the standout. But HH moved him inside just like he did Bars who HAD a prototype OT body before they retooled him for inside duty.

HH was great but in all his time he landed 2 guys who were, and remained OT's... McG and Bivin. The offers Quinn has out shows he likes high end 6-6/6-7/6-8 OT's. He also knows the value of athletic, big TE's who so often transform into high caliber OT's as he was the OL coach for Joe Staley's college development.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Think about this crazy fact from the Kelly era... the LT for his entire tenure has been an *ELITE* NFL caliber lineman.

ZMart -> Ronnie Stanley -> Mike McGlinchey. Nothing but top NFL draft picks. We have been absolutely spoiled at that position. I'm not sure if there is an "heir apparent" on the current roster... do we have anyone of that quality/upside to be a top 10ish NFL draft pick?

Top 10? Too early to tell, but Eichenberg has looked better and better each week. He's got huge upside too.

 

[NDMIA]

Football Outsiders OL Rankings
1 Alabama
2 Florida
3 Wisconsin
4 Oklahoma
5 Arizona
6 Missouri
7 Clemson
8 Iowa
9 Purdue
10 Mississippi State
11 Pittsburgh
12 Wake Forest
13 Georgia
14 Washington State
15 Texas
16 Arkansas
17 TCU
18 Nebraska
19 Ole Miss
20 California
21 Syracuse
22 Kentucky
23 Penn State
24 Ohio State
25 Minnesota
26 Oregon
27 Virginia
28 West Virginia
29 Indiana
30 Baylor
31 South Carolina
32 Georgia Tech
33 Washington
34 Arizona State
35 Rutgers
36 Illinois
37 Utah
38 UCLA
39 Michigan
40 Virginia Tech
41 Auburn
42 NC State
43 Miami-FL
44 Boston College
45 Vanderbilt
46 Texas Tech
47 Duke
48 Iowa State
49 Oklahoma State
50 Notre Dame
51 North Carolina
52 Michigan State
53 Maryland
54 LSU
55 Colorado
56 Kansas State
57 Texas A&M
58 USC
59 Louisville
60 Northwestern
61 Stanford
62 Oregon State
63 Kansas
64 Florida State
65 Tennessee

Just as an FYI, here are the 9 remaining playoff contenders and their OLine rankings...

1 Alabama
4 Oklahoma
7 Clemson
13 Georgia
14 Washington St
24 Ohio State
28 West Virginia
39 Michigan
50 Notre Dame

ND needs to improve in a hurry because a lot of these teams are winning in the trenches on both sides of the ball.

 

[BobbyMac]

Football Outsiders OL Rankings
1 Alabama
2 Florida
3 Wisconsin
4 Oklahoma
5 Arizona
6 Missouri
7 Clemson
8 Iowa
9 Purdue
10 Mississippi State
11 Pittsburgh
12 Wake Forest
13 Georgia
14 Washington State
15 Texas
16 Arkansas
17 TCU
18 Nebraska
19 Ole Miss
20 California
21 Syracuse
22 Kentucky
23 Penn State
24 Ohio State
25 Minnesota
26 Oregon
27 Virginia
28 West Virginia
29 Indiana
30 Baylor
31 South Carolina
32 Georgia Tech
33 Washington
34 Arizona State
35 Rutgers
36 Illinois
37 Utah
38 UCLA
39 Michigan
40 Virginia Tech
41 Auburn
42 NC State
43 Miami-FL
44 Boston College
45 Vanderbilt
46 Texas Tech
47 Duke
48 Iowa State
49 Oklahoma State
50 Notre Dame
51 North Carolina
52 Michigan State
53 Maryland
54 LSU
55 Colorado
56 Kansas State
57 Texas A&M
58 USC
59 Louisville
60 Northwestern
61 Stanford
62 Oregon State
63 Kansas
64 Florida State
65 Tennessee

Just as an FYI, here are the 9 remaining playoff contenders and their OLine rankings...

1 Alabama
4 Oklahoma
7 Clemson
13 Georgia
14 Washington St
24 Ohio State
28 West Virginia
39 Michigan
50 Notre Dame

ND needs to improve in a hurry because a lot of these teams are winning in the trenches on both sides of the ball.

These "advanced stats" thingies are great and all but I promise you if you give Kevin Sumlin the option of keeping his "#5 ranked" OL or trading straight up for Quinn and ND's "#50 OL", he picks Quinn and the gold lids 11 times out of 10. The same goes for Odom, Brohm, Leach and the majority of the teams ranked above them.

 

[BobbyMac]

Two ND guys at the top... and #3 somehow got away.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The highest graded rookie offensive linemen in the NFL so far this season. <a href="https://t.co/vhA5M7c7iK">pic.twitter.com/vhA5M7c7iK</a></p>— Pro Football Focus (@PFF) <a href="https://twitter.com/PFF/status/1063443344976695296?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 16, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[zelezo vlk]

#3 got away because he wanted to play tackle. I can't remember if he played much at Auburn or if they stuck him at guard

 

[snoopdog]

Football Outsiders OL Rankings
1 Alabama
2 Florida
3 Wisconsin
4 Oklahoma
5 Arizona
6 Missouri
7 Clemson
8 Iowa
9 Purdue
10 Mississippi State
11 Pittsburgh
12 Wake Forest
13 Georgia
14 Washington State
15 Texas
16 Arkansas
17 TCU
18 Nebraska
19 Ole Miss
20 California
21 Syracuse
22 Kentucky
23 Penn State
24 Ohio State
25 Minnesota
26 Oregon
27 Virginia
28 West Virginia
29 Indiana
30 Baylor
31 South Carolina
32 Georgia Tech
33 Washington
34 Arizona State
35 Rutgers
36 Illinois
37 Utah
38 UCLA
39 Michigan
40 Virginia Tech
41 Auburn
42 NC State
43 Miami-FL
44 Boston College
45 Vanderbilt
46 Texas Tech
47 Duke
48 Iowa State
49 Oklahoma State
50 Notre Dame
51 North Carolina
52 Michigan State
53 Maryland
54 LSU
55 Colorado
56 Kansas State
57 Texas A&M
58 USC
59 Louisville
60 Northwestern
61 Stanford
62 Oregon State
63 Kansas
64 Florida State
65 Tennessee

Just as an FYI, here are the 9 remaining playoff contenders and their OLine rankings...

1 Alabama
4 Oklahoma
7 Clemson
13 Georgia
14 Washington St
24 Ohio State
28 West Virginia
39 Michigan
50 Notre Dame

ND needs to improve in a hurry because a lot of these teams are winning in the trenches on both sides of the ball.

Sorry, but Football Outsiders should stay outside. That list is a joke.

Also, IMO Liam Eichenberg will end up a high NFL pick....maybe not first round...but definitely no later than 2nd day if he stays healthy.

McG goes in the top ten, but does anyone remember his 2016 season. He wished he was as good as Liam was this year

 

[wizards8507]

Two ND guys at the top... and #3 somehow got away.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The highest graded rookie offensive linemen in the NFL so far this season. <a href="https://t.co/vhA5M7c7iK">pic.twitter.com/vhA5M7c7iK</a></p>— Pro Football Focus (@PFF) <a href="https://twitter.com/PFF/status/1063443344976695296?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 16, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Zack Martin has been the NFL's best guard so far this season. <a href="https://t.co/9gNDVdJe5A">pic.twitter.com/9gNDVdJe5A</a></p>— Pro Football Focus (@PFF) <a href="https://twitter.com/PFF/status/1063488628985421824?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 16, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Luckylucci]

In regards to our current OL, Aaron Banks is really coming along right now. He's made a fairly significant contribution to the OL since his full time addition. Expect really big things from him going forward.

 

[Me2SouthBend]

In regards to our current OL, Aaron Banks is really coming along right now. He's made a fairly significant contribution to the OL since his full time addition. Expect really big things from him going forward.

Agreed. I was stoked when he got inserted into starting lineup. He's a big dude about to do big things. Bright future.

 

[Luckylucci]

Agreed. I was stoked when he got inserted into starting lineup. He's a big dude about to do big things. Bright future.

Certainly not the technician, at least not yet, that Bars was but he's an earth mover. I think against FSU we saw the impact of him being able to matchup with some of those bigger DL like Nelson did last year.