New Pope Elected

connor_in

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I don't follow. He strikes me as conservative on social issues such as gay marriage and abortion. Or do you consider those theological issues? If so, what are social issues? He seems to be a real champion of the poor, if that's what you mean, but as you say that's pretty uncontroversial.

My guess...yes gay marriage and abortion are considered theological issues and he is against them ... However, he does not denigrate homosexuals as bad people, he in fact is known for an act where he went to a place with AIDS patients and washed and kissed their feet (huge sign of respect Catholic-wise)
 

Golden_Domer

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They usually are (for Catholic priests, at least).



The right Pope could change a lot of things-- clerical celibacy (at least at the Diocesan level), transparency, accountability, etc.

Sure, I guess I should've been more clear. Ordination of women is not something than can be changed (sacramental in nature), whereas clerical celibacy, theoretically, could be since it's not considered doctrinal/dogmatic. I didn't mean to say that a pope couldn't change anything. Just that there are certain things that are immutable.
 

JughedJones

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63961_10200373635856645_904245870_n.jpg
 

IrishinTN

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did they remove the book of leviticus?

The book of Leviticus was written for dietary laws at a time when such things made people very sick. In Matthew 15 Jesus says "That which goes into your mouth cannot defile you, only that which comes out." So just as Christ's sacrifice made the Levitican priests animal sacrifices unnecessary, Christ also tells us that now all foods can be considered clean.

Besides, Leviticus says things that do not have scales or fins are detestable or you "should not" eat them. Much like it says you should not be a drunkard. But it doesn't specifically say you CANNOT do it.
 

BobD

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The Cardinals were actually making a Harlem Shake video in the Sistine Chapel

That would be the funniest Harlem Shake video ever and nobody should be allowed to make another one after it.
 

Whiskeyjack

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This passage (taken from an AmCon article via the Washington Post) is heartening:

Catholics are still buzzing over his speech last year accusing fellow church officials of hypocrisy for forgetting that Jesus Christ bathed lepers and ate with prostitutes.

“In our ecclesiastical region there are priests who don’t baptize the children of single mothers because they weren’t conceived in the sanctity of marriage,” Bergoglio told his priests. “These are today’s hypocrites. Those who clericalize the Church. Those who separate the people of God from salvation. And this poor girl who, rather than returning the child to sender, had the courage to carry it into the world, must wander from parish to parish so that it’s baptized!

Bergoglio compared this concept of Catholicism to the Pharisees of Christ’s time: people who congratulate themselves while condemning others.

“Jesus teaches us another way: Go out. Go out and share your testimony, go out and interact with your brothers, go out and share, go out and ask. Become the Word in body as well as spirit,” Bergoglio said.
 

BurningRiver

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I go to a Jesuit high school and the hundreds of students huddled around the TV watching the news went crazy when they announced he was a Jesuit.
 

Rack Em

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I go to a Jesuit high school and the hundreds of students huddled around the TV watching the news went crazy when they announced he was a Jesuit.

And conservative, orthodox Catholics threw their TVs.

And then they went to the interwebs and found out he's pretty conservative and orthodox - atypical of a Jesuit.
 

Wolverine1997

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A great day for us Catholics.

He sounds like a really good man. A very humble one indeed.

Who knew it would only take 266 popes to get one from the Americas.
 

ACamp1900

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A great day for us Catholics.

He sounds like a really good man. A very humble one indeed.

Who knew it would only take 266 popes to get one from the Americas.

Cathlics aren't allowed to root for skunkbers... It's in I Peter somewhere, right after wives serving husbands and such....
 

Redbar

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Cathlics aren't allowed to root for skunkbers... It's in I Peter somewhere, right after wives serving husbands and such....

Yeah, I don't think anyone here is advocating excommunication, not in this day and age, but you know a coupla of novena's, maybe doing a little beautifying around the parish church, definitely some strict ultimatums by the Bishop, and some promises not to be so easily deceived and to try to be a better man/woman. I'm glad it's not me deciding, or rather you should be glad it's not me. I'd probably use that Old Testament logic on a skunkbear.
 

NDBoiler

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Cathlics aren't allowed to root for skunkbers... It's in I Peter somewhere, right after wives serving husbands and such....

On a related note, that reminded me of when I asked my wife if we could use the reading at our wedding mass that says something about the wife being " the man's helpmate". Needless to say, it was frowned upon and we did not use it.
 

BobD

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Hopefully he isn't too conservative to consider some change.

4y1tMad.jpg
 
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Irish YJ

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A great day for us Catholics.

He sounds like a really good man. A very humble one indeed.

Who knew it would only take 266 popes to get one from the Americas.

Might have been born in the Americas, but only one generation out of Italy. Nothing to be overly WOW'd about IMO.
 

connor_in

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On a related note, that reminded me of when I asked my wife if we could use the reading at our wedding mass that says something about the wife being " the man's helpmate". Needless to say, it was frowned upon and we did not use it.

Every time this reading comes around at the churches I have attended thru my life, they always emphasize and spend more time on the other side of it where it tells the husbands to be good to their wives. They emphasize this and spell this out far more directly and forcefully.
 

Whiskeyjack

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From a 2007 interview with then Cardinal Bergoglio:

This is valid also for lay people…

BERGOGLIO: Their clericalization is a problem. The priests clericalize the laity and the laity beg us to be clericalized… It really is sinful abetment. And to think that baptism alone could suffice. I’m thinking of those Christian communities in Japan that remained without priests for more than two hundred years. When the missionaries returned they found them all baptized, all validly married for the Church and all their dead had had a Catholic funeral. The faith had remained intact through the gifts of grace that had gladdened the life of a laity who had received only baptism and had also lived their apostolic mission in virtue of baptism alone. One must not be afraid of depending only on His tenderness… Do you know the biblical episode of the prophet Jonah?

I don’t remember it. Tell us.

BERGOGLIO: Jonah had everything clear. He had clear ideas about God, very clear ideas about good and evil. On what God does and on what He wants, on who was faithful to the Covenant and who instead was outside the Covenant. He had the recipe for being a good prophet. God broke into his life like a torrent. He sent him to Nineveh. Nineveh was the symbol of all the separated, the lost, of all the peripheries of humanity. Of all those who are outside, forlorn. Jonah saw that the task set on him was only to tell all those people that the arms of God were still open, that the patience of God was there and waiting, to heal them with His forgiveness and nourish them with His tenderness. Only for that had God sent him. He sent him to Nineveh, but he instead ran off in the opposite direction, toward Tarsis.

Running away from a difficult mission…

BERGOGLIO: No. What he was fleeing was not so much Nineveh as the boundless love of God for those people. It was that that didn’t come into his plans. God had come once… “and I’ll see to the rest”: that’s what Jonah told himself. He wanted to do things his way, he wanted to steer it all. His stubbornness shut him in his own structures of evaluation, in his pre-ordained methods, in his righteous opinions. He had fenced his soul off with the barbed wire of those certainties that instead of giving freedom with God and opening horizons of greater service to others had finished by deafening his heart. How the isolated conscience hardens the heart! Jonah no longer knew that God leads His people with the heart of a Father.

A great many of us can identify with Jonah.

BERGOGLIO: Our certainties can become a wall, a jail that imprisons the Holy Spirit. Those who isolate their conscience from the path of the people of God don’t know the joy of the Holy Spirit that sustains hope. That is the risk run by the isolated conscience. Of those who from the closed world of their Tarsis complain about everything or, feeling their identity threatened, launch themselves into battles only in the end to be still more self-concerned and self-referential.

What should one do?

BERGOGLIO: Look at our people not for what it should be but for what it is and see what is necessary. Without preconceptions and recipes but with generous openness. For the wounds and the frailty God spoke. Allowing the Lord to speak… In a world that we can’t manage to interest with the words we say, only His presence that loves us, saves us, can be of interest. The apostolic fervor renews itself in order to testify to Him who has loved us from the beginning.

For you, then, what is the worst thing that can happen in the Church?

BERGOGLIO: It is what De Lubac calls «spiritual worldliness». It is the greatest danger for the Church, for us, who are in the Church. “It is worse”, says De Lubac, “more disastrous than the infamous leprosy that disfigured the dearly beloved Bride at the time of the libertine popes”. Spiritual worldliness is putting oneself at the center. It is what Jesus saw going on among the Pharisees: “… You who glorify yourselves. Who give glory to yourselves, the ones to the others.”
 

ShawneeIrish

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Pretty strong statements.

"A headline that really struck me on the day of the tragedy in Bangladesh was 'Living on 38 euros a month'. That is what the people who died were being paid. This is called slave labour," the pope was quoted as saying at a private mass.

"Today in the world this slavery is being committed against something beautiful that God has given us -- the capacity to create, to work, to have dignity. How many brothers and sisters find themselves in this situation!" he said.

"Not paying fairly, not giving a job because you are only looking at balance sheets, only looking at how to make a profit. That goes against God!" he was quoted as saying.

"There are many people who want to work but cannot. When a society is organised in a way that not everyone is given the chance to work, that society is not just," he said.

Pope Francis Condemns 'Slave Labor' In Bangladesh: 'Goes Against God'
 

Rack Em

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He's had some pretty strong statements over the last several years.
 

ND NYC

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well its about time somebody said something on this issue...politicians run from it and corporations try to hide it all.

agree 100% on his slave labor comments.
 

Whiskeyjack

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The Week's Damon Linker just published an article titled "The Republican Party's war with Pope Francis has finally started":

It looks like 2015 is shaping up to be the year when Catholic conservatives declare war on Pope Francis.

We heard the first rumblings last fall, when the preliminary draft of a statement produced by the extraordinary Synod on the Family inspired New York Times columnist Ross Douthat to warn ominously about the possibility of a schism in the church if the Vatican loosens doctrinal strictures against divorced (and remarried) lay people receiving the sacrament of Communion.

But most Catholic conservatives have held their tongues, working to put a positive spin on papal pronouncements that many of them find increasingly alarming. (Sure the pope’s denunciations of capitalism are galling, but listen to his passionate attacks on abortion! Yes, Francis is far too nice to gays, but he gave such an inspiring speech on the last day of the Synod!)

So far, the tactic has worked — at least until now.

Interestingly, the decisive provocation appears to be the pope’s forthcoming encyclical on the environment.

On Jan. 3, Robert P. George assured readers at First Things that they could safely ignore whatever the pope might say about climate change because his arguments would be based on contestable empirical claims about which Francis possesses no special expertise. Two days later, author Maureen Mullarkey wrote a blistering blog post, also at FT, in which she went much further — to condemned the pope as “an ideologue and a meddlesome egoist” who views “man as a parasite” and “sullies his office by using demagogic formulations to bully the populace into reflexive climate action with no more substantive guide than theologized propaganda.” (FT editor R.R. Reno disowned the Mullarkey post later in the week.)

Finally, on the same day that Mullarkey’s post appeared, Catholic columnist Steve Moore denounced Francis in Forbes, calling his public policy pronouncements on economics and the environment a “complete disaster” that show that he’s “allied himself with the far left and has embraced an ideology that would make people poorer and less free.”

Looks like the honeymoon is finally over.

The question is why now — and why over the environment of all things?

The answer, I think, is that the environment, in itself, has very little to do with it. The problem is simply that Francis has broken from too many elements in the Republican Party platform. First there were affirming statements about homosexuality. Then harsh words for capitalism and trickle-down economics. And now climate change. That, it seems, is a bridge too far. Francis has put conservative American Catholics in the position of having to choose between the pope and the GOP. It should surprise no one that they’re siding with the Republicans.

Under Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI, a number of neoconservative Catholics (or theocons) went out of their way to make the case for the deep compatibility between Catholicism and the GOP. But not just compatibility: more like symbiosis. For Richard John Neuhaus, Michael Novak, George Weigel, and their allies, the GOP would serve as a vehicle for injecting Catholic moral and social ideas into American political culture — while those Catholics ideas, in turn, would galvanize the Republican Party, lending theological gravity and purpose to its agenda and priorities.

In the hands of the theocons, the Republican platform became more than a parochially American mishmash of positions thrown haphazardly together for contingent historical reasons. Rather, it was a unified statement of High Moral Truth rooted in Thomas Aquinas’ medieval theology of natural law — the most highly developed outgrowth of Christian civilization.

Opposition to abortion was bound up with hostility to euthanasia and same-sex marriage as well as with support for domestic policies that encourage traditional family life — with all of these flowing from an overarching commitment to a “culture of life” and resistance to a “culture of death.” This commitment also justified an assertive American foreign policy that championed freedom, imposed global order, and upheld the highest standards of international justice. And of course, the vision of the free society that guided American foreign policy was one with relatively low taxes and minimal government regulations in which the primary burden of charity and other support for the poor falls primarily on individuals and local communities.

To be a devout Catholic and a conservative Republican in the three decades separating Ronald Reagan’s first term and the start of Pope Francis’s pontificate in March 2013 was to feel virtually no tension between one’s political and theological commitments. Which isn’t to say that conflicts never arose. Occasionally they did — when John Paul or Benedict spoke out against the death penalty, pointed out injustices endemic to capitalism, or expressed concerns about the latest American war. But there was always a theoconservative writer at the ready, willing and eager to accentuate continuities with the GOP and explain away the difficulties.

That has become ever more untenable in the 22 months since Francis became pope, as the points of divergence have multiplied. With the release of an encyclical that looks likely to break forcefully with the climate-change denialism that has become a fixture of the Republican mind, American conservatives appear to have reached a moment of decision: Should they side with the party or the pontiff?

Mullarkey and Moore, at least, have made it very clear where they stand: with the GOP and against the pope. Robert George, meanwhile, remains committed to the old theocon strategy of explaining away the difficulties — of telling Catholic Republicans that there’s no need to choose, because GOP ideology and Catholic social teaching go together just as easily and happily as ever.

Except that, increasingly, they don’t — as more and more Catholic Republicans are coming to understand.

The war is underway, and there may well be nothing the theocons can do to stop it.
 
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GoldenToTheGrave

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On Jan. 3, Robert P. George assured readers at First Things that they could safely ignore whatever the pope might say about climate change because his arguments would be based on contestable empirical claims about which Francis possesses no special expertise. Two days later, author Maureen Mullarkey wrote a blistering blog post, also at FT, in which she went much further — to condemned the pope as “an ideologue and a meddlesome egoist” who views “man as a parasite” and “sullies his office by using demagogic formulations to bully the populace into reflexive climate action with no more substantive guide than theologized propaganda.” (FT editor R.R. Reno disowned the Mullarkey post later in the week.)

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
 
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