ND Coaching Changes 2016

[OlympiaIrishFan]

No leadership and culture issues is onBK.

 

[stlnd01]

I think one of this staff's biggest shortcomings isn't x's and o's, or training methods or facilities. It's the players they bring into the program and how they develop them both athletically and as leaders. There is no question that this team has had a significant lack of leadership within the ranks of players as far back as I can remember.

Yep. We can change all the assistants and schemes we want. If the players don't do what it takes to win football games the program will never get where we all want it to be. Some of that's on the coaches to teach and develop. Some of it's on the players themselves to carry from there. Both fell short this year.

 

[stlnd01]

No leadership and culture issues is onBK.

We had good leadership in 2012 and 2015. Does he get any credit for that, or no?

 

[woolybug25]

We had good leadership in 2012 and 2015. Does he get any credit for that, or no?

We had good leadership in 2015? Who knew?

 

[Sherm Sticky]

On the bright side first year starting QB's seem to thrive in Kelly's offense...


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[NDinBoston]

We had good leadership in 2012 and 2015. Does he get any credit for that, or no?

Great points. I think classes take on a culture. Some are good, some not so much. I think you need to look a lot at what players are saying and doing. Coaches can be catalysts but much must come from the players. It needs to be "vocal".

I am liking what I am seeing/hearing from BW, Alize, the 2017 class.

Then the "play hard" leadership from Fertitta, Morgan, Drue, Juice.

 

[calvegas04]

2015 had good leadership

 

[woolybug25]

2015 had good leadership

How many true "leaders" have we had under BK?

If I was being liberal, I would say:

- Manti
- Sheldon Day
- Zach Martin
- Theo Riddick

Who else?

 

[pkt77242]

How many true "leaders" have we had under BK?

If I was being liberal, I would say:

- Manti
- Sheldon Day
- Zach Martin
- Theo Riddick

Who else?

Rees
TJ Jones
Harrison Smith

 

[IrishLax]

How many true "leaders" have we had under BK?

If I was being liberal, I would say:

- Manti
- Sheldon Day
- Zach Martin
- Theo Riddick

Who else?

KLM, Zaire. KLM was even a better defensive leader than Manti on that team, IMO. A lot of the 2015 success was on Zaire's leadership even after getting injured.

Harrison Smith was (and is) a superb leader, too. Not really sure why Riddick made your list.

 

[woolybug25]

Rees
TJ Jones
Harrison Smith

I'll give you Harrison Smith.

 

[kmoose]

How many true "leaders" have we had under BK?

If I was being liberal, I would say:

- Manti
- Sheldon Day
- Zach Martin
- Theo Riddick

Who else?

Corey Robinson
Maybe Joe Schmidt?

 

[woolybug25]

KLM, Zaire. KLM was even a better defensive leader than Manti on that team, IMO. A lot of the 2015 success was on Zaire's leadership even after getting injured.

Harrison Smith was (and is) a superb leader, too. Not really sure why Riddick made your list.

No Theo? As BK called him, he was "the very definition of a Notre Dame football player". He was vocal, selfless (played where we needed him), led by example and stayed out of trouble. I don't know what more someone could ask for from a player.

 

[NDinBoston]

How many true "leaders" have we had under BK?

If I was being liberal, I would say:

- Manti
- Sheldon Day
- Zach Martin
- Theo Riddick

Who else?

2015 - Stanley, Fuller, Jaylon Smith, NMart, Sheldon Day, CJP, KVR, CB, Farley, Grace, Joe Schmidt

I think typical leadership is perceived as verbal but sometimes players can be effective through their clutch performance. In 2015 that was Will Fuller, CJP, and even Farley.

I think Chris Brown provided some effective leadership through positive attitude and selfless blocking.

There was just an overall confidence to the team that resonated down from the upperclassmen.

 

[IrishLax]

No Theo? As BK called him, he was "the very definition of a Notre Dame football player". He was vocal, selfless (played where we needed him), led by example and stayed out of trouble. I don't know what more someone could ask for from a player.

Ok then I could name 20 other guys that played where they were put, led by example, and stayed out of trouble. For example, by that criteria, CJ Prosise is just a super charged Riddick.

Anyways, just never really heard of anyone talk about him as a "leader" on those teams. It seemed like you were trying to have a tough cut of people who were all-around leaders that inspired better play and effort from teammates. I know Zaire did a ton in the offseason that Golson didn't do prior to '15 to get the whole team bought in and putting in maximum effort towards the season. Never really heard of Riddick taking that kind of leadership role and holding others accountable.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Gotcha. Makes perfect sense, thank you. This whole year has been bizarre, I'm hoping Kelly is a politician enough to not mail it in this year and do more damage than he's already done.

There definitely is something to that, imo. Longo's issue wasn't that he was using poor methods. I'm sure he know a lot more than all of the fake meatheads on here give him credit for, but that doesn't mean he didn't suck at his job.

Saban's staff from the S&C to the coordinators to the damn training table cook are all on the same page. They preach the same message and that message comes from the top. I think one of this staff's biggest shortcomings isn't x's and o's, or training methods or facilities. It's the players they bring into the program and how they develop them both athletically and as leaders. There is no question that this team has had a significant lack of leadership within the ranks of players as far back as I can remember.

I think the whiplash of BK constantly looking or the perception. Of him looking at other jobs has caught up with him. Maybe he kept his buddy BVG as his D.C. Because he figured he was gone.

It goes back to hearing what Jeter said about him and the ego part of Bk, yo go along with 4-8 this year and not really beating any good teams last year outside Navy, I am just sick of the BK game.

No leadership and culture issues is onBK.

Is the irony lost on everyone? Some said BK's agent wouldn't let some of the things happen that clearly have happened. He's been trying to get Brian Kelly out of Notre Dame for three or four years.

So they are all sitting around talking, like a fat couple that cheated on each other, and their lovers, (You know the kind of situation where you can't put what happened back in the bottle, but there is some work to do, and it behooves everyone to cooperate?), and all sided come up with it at the same time, "All Brian has to do is find another job!" And every one is ecstatic! So they have a plan and they put it to work for them, only no one in the world wants to hire Brian Kelly to coach American football. Not even the Ulaanbaatar Yack Smears! So, silence, and the immediate weight of the particular frustration that affects those that have painted themselves into a corner, descends upon the room. The camera fades as the quiet grows deafening . . .

See for ND hiring a better strength and conditioning coach doesn't really make enough difference to matter. It is everyone in the program, and the program itself.

 

[woolybug25]

2015 - Stanley, Fuller, Jaylon Smith, NMart, Sheldon Day, CJP, KVR, CB, Farley, Grace, Joe Schmidt

I think typical leadership is perceived as verbal but sometimes players can be effective through their clutch performance. In 2015 that was Will Fuller, CJP, and even Farley.

I think Chris Brown provided some effective leadership through positive attitude and selfless blocking.

There was just an overall confidence to the team that resonated down from the upperclassmen.

Yeah... I disagree on almost all of them.

- Stanley was a great player, but he was far from a leader. He is a mellow dude. He certainly did his job and always was a great example for other players, but just being a good player doesn't make someone a leader.
- Smith was a generational talent, but his lack of leadership skills was his biggest flaw. It was even showcased in "A Season With". He just wasn't comfortable with it.
- Ditto with Fuller
- Nick wasn't his brother.
- I have no idea why Procise is in that list. Love the guy, but not a leader.
- KVR talked a ton, but he also was part of a scandal and was suspended from the team. Then left early despite a poor draft grade.
- I know a lot of you don't agree, but you have to lead with your play imo. Schmidt was just loud. He didn't make people better.
- Just no on the rest.

 

[Valpodoc85]

Thing I don't get is Swarbrick. Seems the ND community has been impressed with his decisions as AD. Why put your neck in the noose for BK?

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Yeah... I disagree on almost all of them.



- Stanley was a great player, but he was far from a leader. He is a mellow dude. He certainly did his job and always was a great example for other players, but just being a good player doesn't make someone a leader.

- Smith was a generational talent, but his lack of leadership skills was his biggest flaw. It was even showcased in "A Season With". He just wasn't comfortable with it.

- Ditto with Fuller

- Nick wasn't his brother.

- I have no idea why Procise is in that list. Love the guy, but not a leader.

- KVR talked a ton, but he also was part of a scandal and was suspended from the team. Then left early despite a poor draft grade.

- I know a lot of you don't agree, but you have to lead with your play imo. Schmidt was just loud. He didn't make people better.

- Just no on the rest.

I disagree with you on Nick Martin. Two time captain and a true warrior. Not as talented as his brother and IMO a better leader.

Stanley was also voted a team captain. Could not accept due to parking tickets or something. He may have been soft spoken, but he was a leader.

You all may hate this but Dan Fox was also one hell of a leader.

Same with Zeke Motta.


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[stlnd01]

I don't know what it takes to be a leader in Wooly's book. But 2015 had a lot of veterans who knew what it took to win. From Jaylon and Sheldon Day all the way to Farley and Chris Brown.
Losing all those players was the biggest difference between 2015 and 2016, and it wasn't just about talent level.

 

[NDinBoston]

I don't know what it takes to be a leader in Wooly's book. But 2015 had a lot of veterans who knew what it took to win. From Jaylon and Sheldon Day all the way to Farley and Chris Brown.
Losing all those players was the biggest difference between 2015 and 2016, and it wasn't just about talent level.

100%

 

[Bogtrotter07]

2015 - Stanley, Fuller, Jaylon Smith, NMart, Sheldon Day, CJP, KVR, CB, Farley, Grace, Joe Schmidt

I think typical leadership is perceived as verbal but sometimes players can be effective through their clutch performance. In 2015 that was Will Fuller, CJP, and even Farley.

I think Chris Brown provided some effective leadership through positive attitude and selfless blocking.

There was just an overall confidence to the team that resonated down from the upperclassmen.

Okay, this is where it goes south on an eastbound line.

I agree with the part about Chris Brown, very well said.

Stanly was a little kid, the whole time he was at ND. He was just like my ten year old, maybe 12.

Fuller never accepted the reins of leadership. I cannot remember another Consensus AA that played for ND that had as little affect at bringing up the play of his teammates around him.

The only right thing BVG said the whole time he was at ND was that Jaylon wasn't taking on the mantle of leadership, as great players do. Jaylon also didn't inspire his teammates to play better, Zack and Manti did!

I love Will Fuller and Jaylon Smith, and think they were both one of a kind players, and feel lucky to have seen them play as much as I did.

KVR is, was, and always has been a schmuck and a smendrake. I warned everyone I had hostile feelings about mentioning this kids name and leadership at ND in the same sentence! Now, I think he got a bad rap, being injured for his last year, and nobody knowing it, but it was his own problem. He lost his fifth year because he was another idiot. (Frozen five.)

Just watching Day on Showtime, with Tillery, and I guarantee he isn't, wasn't, and probably could never be a good leader.

Schmidt couldn't be, because some of his fellow players couldn't be around him, or listen to him, without having to puke. Just a fact.

Nick had a baby, leader going for a while, and Farley tried to swing out and be all of it, but he was just one of those really smart and sensitive guys, and I bet he couldn't stomach the bull shit, any better than Schmidt's teammates could.

Procise just wasn't a leader. Not that kind.

Grace was truly one of the most inspirational folks I have ever seen, but he didn't get a fair chance to play. Someone on the staff wanted him screwed, so you can't have a real team leader when the staff says, 'Hell no!'

My point is, this site still caters to those that spend oodles of time trying to prove contrarian points. And that ain't it. It's just all about making ass kicking a massive priority.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I disagree with you on Nick Martin. Two time captain and a true warrior. Not as talented as his brother and IMO a better leader.

Stanley was also voted a team captain. Could not accept due to parking tickets or something. He may have been soft spoken, but he was a leader.

You all may hate this but Dan Fox was also one hell of a leader.

Same with Zeke Motta.


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And I disagree with you on Zack Martin. He was a two time captain who fully blossomed at ND, and made all his fellow offensive linemen play better. How many of you all just argued that the Oline had been down in '14 and '15?

Stanley was not allowed to be captain because of the administration. Yes he had hundreds of dollars of unpaid parking tickets. But who in the fuck does that? Let alone can compartmentalize his life so that doesn't spill over to cloud his leadership efforts?

 

[NDinBoston]

Okay, this is where it goes south on an eastbound line.

I agree with the part about Chris Brown, very well said.

Stanly was a little kid, the whole time he was at ND. He was just like my ten year old, maybe 12.

Fuller never accepted the reins of leadership. I cannot remember another Consensus AA that played for ND that had as little affect at bringing up the play of his teammates around him.

The only right thing BVG said the whole time he was at ND was that Jaylon wasn't taking on the mantle of leadership, as great players do. Jaylon also didn't inspire his teammates to play better, Zack and Manti did!

I love Will Fuller and Jaylon Smith, and think they were both one of a kind players, and feel lucky to have seen them play as much as I did.

KVR is, was, and always has been a schmuck and a smendrake. I warned everyone I had hostile feelings about mentioning this kids name and leadership at ND in the same sentence! Now, I think he got a bad rap, being injured for his last year, and nobody knowing it, but it was his own problem. He lost his fifth year because he was another idiot. (Frozen five.)

Just watching Day on Showtime, with Tillery, and I guarantee he isn't, wasn't, and probably could never be a good leader.

Schmidt couldn't be, because some of his fellow players couldn't be around him, or listen to him, without having to puke. Just a fact.

Nick had a baby, leader going for a while, and Farley tried to swing out and be all of it, but he was just one of those really smart and sensitive guys, and I bet he couldn't stomach the bull shit, any better than Schmidt's teammates could.

Procise just wasn't a leader. Not that kind.

Grace was truly one of the most inspirational folks I have ever seen, but he didn't get a fair chance to play. Someone on the staff wanted him screwed, so you can't have a real team leader when the staff says, 'Hell no!'

My point is, this site still caters to those that spend oodles of time trying to prove contrarian points. And that ain't it. It's just all about making ass kicking a massive priority.

I agree with everything you said but they went 10-3 with their only losses to the what, #2, 3, and 5 teams in the country, two of those games by one score? They were pretty good. "Great" leadership? No. "Effective", I think yes, especially when compared to other years. Should we want better leadership? Yes.

 

[ND NYC]

look, we can debate previous leadership traits of players till we are blue in the face. BUT:

ALL leadership starts at the top.

 

[Wild Bill]

Stanly was a little kid, the whole time he was at ND. He was just like my ten year old, maybe 12.

Typically, offensive linemen and/or the entire offensive line have a very strange dynamic with the rest of the team. While the rest of the team runs around like a bunch of fools, we graze the field like gentlemen and discuss/analyze the best holding techniques, who is the fattest of the group, and who we hate more - the quarterback we block for or the defensive line we block against. It's basically a team within a team and we hate everyone except each other (at times, we'll tolerate tight ends and running backs) which makes it difficult for one of "us" to lead the whole. I agree, Stanley wasn't a team leader but b/c he was an absolute fucking freak, he was a leader on the offensive line. I assure you every one of those offensive linemen looked up to him b/c he completely dominated anyone in front of him. I'm equally certain he was well received in the running back and quarterback meetings. I would bet he was respected as much as he was hated by the defense. That's really all I would ever ask for in terms of leadership from an offensive linemen.

Fuller never accepted the reins of leadership. I cannot remember another Consensus AA that played for ND that had as little affect at bringing up the play of his teammates around him.

Fuller had a massive affect on Kizer's success last year and opened up the run game b/c he was a threat to pop the top off the defense anywhere on the field and from any down/distance. I would agree his leadership didn't elevate anyone's game but his skill set and play certainly elevated the play of everyone around him.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Typically, offensive linemen and/or the entire offensive line have a very strange dynamic with the rest of the team. While the rest of the team runs around like a bunch of fools, we graze the field like gentlemen and discuss/analyze the best holding techniques, who is the fattest of the group, and who we hate more - the quarterback we block for or the defensive line we block against. It's basically a team within a team and we hate everyone except each other (at times, we'll tolerate tight ends and running backs) which makes it difficult for one of "us" to lead the whole. I agree, Stanley wasn't a team leader but b/c he was an absolute fucking freak, he was a leader on the offensive line. I assure you every one of those offensive linemen looked up to him b/c he completely dominated anyone in front of him. I'm equally certain he was well received in the running back and quarterback meetings. I would bet he was respected as much as he was hated by the defense. That's really all I would ever ask for in terms of leadership from an offensive linemen.

Fuller had a massive affect on Kizer's success last year and opened up the run game b/c he was a threat to pop the top off the defense anywhere on the field and from any down/distance. I would agree his leadership didn't elevate anyone's game but his skill set and play certainly elevated the play of everyone around him.

See, dude, I agree with everything you say, and particularly enjoyed your obviously enlightened presentation of 'A day in the life of an Offensive lineman,' but dude, as team leaders, which we were talking about Zack 5/5, Nick 2/5, Ronnie 1/5, and Will about 2.5/5. What that team had instead of great leadership was a whole bunch of Ronnie, and Will, (CJ, CJ, DK, Big Mike, Sheldon, Jaylon (Ohmygod!) Isaac, Mathias and etc. Guys that were freaks, and freakishly playing beyond what anyone expected, that bound together and wouldn't quit. Maybe that is a kind of leadership, but not what the op was specifically talking about.

We need that freakish freakism next year, to have any shot at a decent season.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

After last night's game, I'm at the point where I don't see ND competing at a top-10 level. Hopefully the new coaching hire changes that, but ND lacks a dominate/consistent run game and an elite DL. They need that to move up the ranks and stay there. BK may pull a rabbit out of his hat every few years with a 10-win season, but I don't see ND as a perennial power any more. Not until those two things change.

 

[Wingman Ray]

After last night's game, I'm at the point where I don't see ND competing at a top-10 level. Hopefully the new coaching hire changes that, but ND lacks a dominate/consistent run game and an elite DL. They need that to move up the ranks and stay there. BK may pull a rabbit out of his hat every few years with a 10-win season, but I don't see ND as a perennial power any more. Not until those two things change.

Im with you. I just dont see it. Like Echols, I dont think most elite players in America CAN get into ND even if they want to go there. And fact is most dont want to go there. ND will have to win with the middle to low 4 stars vs teams like Bamas high 4 to 5 stars.

 

[rocket66]

After last night's game, I'm at the point where I don't see ND competing at a top-10 level. Hopefully the new coaching hire changes that, but ND lacks a dominate/consistent run game and an elite DL. They need that to move up the ranks and stay there. BK may pull a rabbit out of his hat every few years with a 10-win season, but I don't see ND as a perennial power any more. Not until those two things change.

Meh. All you need is a stud qb and OL (which we have) and play decent defense. We'll be fine.


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