NBA Thread

[NDdomer2]

enlighten us all as to why the 538 analysis is bogus. I'll hang up and listen.

EDIT: Also, how many rings do you think LBJ would have if he had Phil Jackson coaching him for 11 years?

Maybe 1 more? Some of LeBron's early finals teams were bogus and he was very young. They ran into some buzz saws with GSW.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

You keep misconstruing my points in this thread. What can you not understand about my thinking that he's as mentally soft as a down pillow has nothing to do with his basketball ability? He made the greatest b*tch move in the history of NBA free agency. That has nothing to do with his scoring ability.

Fact: Kevin Durant left his 3-seed team with a future MVP and a All-Defense stalwart for what was already statistically the greatest team in the history of the NBA immediately after squandering a 3-1 lead against that same team.

Fact: Kevin Durant is probably the 2nd greatest pure scorer of his generation (behind Curry)

These two are not exclusive.

I'm intentionally misconstruing, it's not a mental inability to understand your simple point.

Usually mentally soft people fold under pressure. Durant has only delivered since joining the Warriors. He took less money to join the Warriors and he's a better pure scorer than Curry. Curry is a better 3 pt shooter but Durant will shoot anywhere on anybody and score.

I understand why people want to run with the Durant is soft narrative. They don't want dominant teams to become more dominant by championship-hungry all stars. They want them to chase the paper so teams are "even" insofar as management is capable of balancing the roster.

What happens if Curry goes back out from an ankle and Durant hoists the Warriors on his back to another ring? I'm guessing the haters will be unimpressed.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

You put all of your stock into stats? There are a lot of NBA player examples of why that doesn't work.

And besides, I didn't say Kobe is better than Jordan. I said if you consider MJ the greatest, Kobe should be next in line.

Kobe vs. Lebron

I don't know, the stats seems to say otherwise. Numbers are dumb?

 

[koonja]

The funny thing about "Kobe doesn't make his teammates better". But "Lebron does!".

- Wade had his greatest year ever the year before Lebron came. 30 pts, rebounds, 5 assists in 2009. Down hill from there (albeit very slightly and I think he was still great).

- Bosh 24/11/52% shooting the year before joining Lebron. Total plummet once playing with Lebron.

- Kevin Love 25/12 before joining Lebron. Total plummet afterwards.

- Kyrie Irving literally leaves to not play with Lebron.

Meanwhile in LALA land....

• Pau Gasol year before joining Kobe: 18.8/8
• Year 1 after: 18.9/8
• Year 2 after: 18.8/11
• Year 3 after: 18.8/8
• You get the point.

Derrick Fisher, Ron Artest, Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, and a number of others have expressed their love for playing with Kobe. Kobe’s not a bad teammate, he just doesn’t have time for you if you’re not committed. And nor should he, unlike Lebron who wants everyone to love him. And Kobe definitely doesn’t make players worse. Lebron “makes everyone better” is a myth. He makes shooters better, meanwhile Love and Bosh literally fall off of the map, and Wade sees decreased production. Lebron’s driving gives guys like James Jones, Kyle Korver, and JR Smith a platform because they can hit shots. But it’s not the same for all players.

 

[Ndaccountant]

The funny thing about "Kobe doesn't make his teammates better". But "Lebron does!".

- Wade had his greatest year ever the year before Lebron came. 30 pts, rebounds, 5 assists in 2009. Down hill from there (albeit very slightly and I think he was still great).

- Bosh 24/11/52% shooting the year before joining Lebron. Total plummet once playing with Lebron.

- Kevin Love 25/12 before joining Lebron. Total plummet afterwards.

- Kyrie Irving literally leaves to not play with Lebron.

Meanwhile in LALA land....

• Pau Gasol year before joining Kobe: 18.8/8
• Year 1 after: 18.9/8
• Year 2 after: 18.8/11
• Year 3 after: 18.8/8
• You get the point.

Derrick Fisher, Ron Artest, Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, and a number of others have expressed their love for playing with Kobe. Kobe’s not a bad teammate, he just doesn’t have time for you if you’re not committed. And nor should he, unlike Lebron who wants everyone to love him. And Kobe definitely doesn’t make players worse. Lebron “makes everyone better” is a myth. He makes shooters better, meanwhile Love and Bosh literally fall off of the map, and Wade sees decreased production. Lebron’s driving gives guys like James Jones, Kyle Korver, and JR Smith a platform because they can hit shots. But it’s not the same for all players.

Kobe:

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LBJ:

<script type="text/javascript" src="//widgets.sports-reference.com/wg.fcgi?css=1&site=bbr&url=%2Fplayers%2Fj%2Fjamesle01.html&div=div_advanced"></script>

So career usage % nearly identical, but Bron Bron had 11% more Assist % of teammate baskets, had an OBPM that is nearly 3 points per game better than Kobe, has 3% advantage in true shooting %, and the best season for Kobe on win share per 48 minutes is below LBJ's career average.

It's not close.

 

[koonja]

Kobe:

<script type="text/javascript" src="//widgets.sports-reference.com/wg.fcgi?css=1&site=bbr&url=%2Fplayers%2Fb%2Fbryanko01.html&div=div_advanced"></script>

LBJ:

<script type="text/javascript" src="//widgets.sports-reference.com/wg.fcgi?css=1&site=bbr&url=%2Fplayers%2Fj%2Fjamesle01.html&div=div_advanced"></script>

So career usage % nearly identical, but Bron Bron had 11% more Assist % of teammate baskets, had an OBPM that is nearly 3 points per game better than Kobe, has 3% advantage in true shooting %, and the best season for Kobe on win share per 48 minutes is below LBJ's career average.

It's not close.

You rely way too much on stats. Do you have Wilt above Shaq and Kareem? Do you have Allen Iverson above Kobe? Do you have Carmelo over Wade?

Put all of Kobe's rings in a bucket, the put all of Lebron's rings in a bucket. Which one is heavier? It's not close.

This is a stat I could use (although I don't think championships mean everything).

Article on the "PER"

First, let me say that while the title is harsh, if you are a person who uses PER to say "NBA player A" is better than "NBA player B", you're an idiot. And I know I have just risked offending idiots, you have my sincere apology.

PER, and the reasons it sucks

More on PER:

The NBA's 10 Most Meaningless Stats and Arguments | Bleacher Report | Latest News, Videos and Highlights

 

[Ndaccountant]

You rely way too much on stats.

Put all of Kobe's rings in a bucket, the put all of Lebron's rings in a bucket. Which one is heavier? This is a stat I could use (although I don't think championships mean everything).

True to form, when advanced stats take away the whataboutism away from an argument, it goes to rings.

If Phil Jackson coached LBJ for 11 years, LBJ has at least one, perhaps 2 more rings. But I bet you dollar for dollar Kobe would not produce the same results that Bron has had in Cleveland (stint one or stint two).

 

[koonja]

True to form, when advanced stats take away the whataboutism away from an argument, it goes to rings.

If Phil Jackson coached LBJ for 11 years, LBJ has at least one, perhaps 2 more rings. But I bet you dollar for dollar Kobe would not produce the same results that Bron has had in Cleveland (stint one or stint two).

I think any of the all time greats would terrorize the East. It's crazy and people don't talk enough about how down the East has been the past 10 years.

I absolutely think Kobe would have. Kobe, Kyrie, and Love all in their prime would be monsters. And Kobe's shown he can actually keep a great post player's production (see Pau Gasol, Shaq), unlike Lebron who's killed his great post player's production (Kevin Love, Chris Bosh).

I think Kobe would have equally as much "accomplishments" however you want to define that.

 

[Ndaccountant]

You rely way too much on stats. Do you have Wilt above Shaq and Kareem? Do you have Allen Iverson above Kobe? Do you have Carmelo over Wade?

Put all of Kobe's rings in a bucket, the put all of Lebron's rings in a bucket. Which one is heavier? It's not close.

This is a stat I could use (although I don't think championships mean everything).

Article on the "PER"

First, let me say that while the title is harsh, if you are a person who uses PER to say "NBA player A" is better than "NBA player B", you're an idiot. And I know I have just risked offending idiots, you have my sincere apology.

PER, and the reasons it sucks

More on PER:

The NBA's 10 Most Meaningless Stats and Arguments | Bleacher Report | Latest News, Videos and Highlights

So PER deals with mainly offense, no? That was the gist of the article. But yet when it is demonstrated that Bron's total win share per 48 minutes ( yes, offense and defense) career average is better than any year Kobe has ever produced, you throw that because.......PER?

Rings, sure Kobe has more. But if that's all you got and some Chris Bosh shot worse therefore LBJ didn't make him better crap, I gotta ask, you even lift bro?

 

[zelezo vlk]

True to form, when advanced stats take away the whataboutism away from an argument, it goes to rings.

If Phil Jackson coached LBJ for 11 years, LBJ has at least one, perhaps 2 more rings. But I bet you dollar for dollar Kobe would not produce the same results that Bron has had in Cleveland (stint one or stint two).

Hmm, I think he'd end up having roughly the same amount of rings, perhaps even 1 fewer. But I'm keeping everything else the same. Pop > Phil Jackson in my book, and so I don't think that the Heat end up beating the Spurs in 2013. The sequence of events to get Ray Allen the ball to hit the 3 to force OT in Game 6 of that series probably doesn't happen again. So that'd be one fewer.

Replay the 2016 series again, even with Phil Jackson, Golden State probably doesn't choke away that lead. That was another 1/100 shot.

I'd definitely give him the 2011 series though, because I think the Zen Master would coax a better performance series-wide than young Spo. They definitely beat the Thunder the year after again.

So you can add the 2011 series, but I don't think 2013 or 2016 fall Lebron's way if replayed.

 

[koonja]

So PER deals with mainly offense, no? That was the gist of the article. But yet when it is demonstrated that Bron's total win share per 48 minutes ( yes, offense and defense) career average is better than any year Kobe has ever produced, you throw that because.......PER?

Rings, sure Kobe has more. But if that's all you got and some Chris Bosh shot worse therefore LBJ didn't make him better crap, I gotta ask, you even lift bro?

I'm not saying Lebron makes teammates bad. I think he does make those around him better in general, as did Kobe. I'm simply combating the lazy opinion that "Kobe was a bad teammate" and "Lebron makes everyone better".

Lebron doesn't make everyone better, he makes 3 PT specialists better. Ask Love and Bosh how great Lebron made them. Ask Kyrie why he asked to leave.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I think any of the all time greats would terrorize the East. It's crazy and people don't talk enough about how down the East has been the past 10 years.

I absolutely think Kobe would have. Kobe, Kyrie, and Love all in their prime would be monsters. And Kobe's shown he can actually keep a great post player's production (see Pau Gasol, Shaq), unlike Lebron who's killed his great post player's production (Kevin Love, Chris Bosh).

I think Kobe would have equally as much "accomplishments" however you want to define that.

What about Love has gone to crap? Min vs Cle, he takes one less shot per game, but his effective FG% is 20 bps higher in Cleveland than Minny?

Bosh? His +/- (again, offense and defense) skyrocketed over his Raptors days when he played with Bron.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I'm not saying Lebron makes teammates bad. I think he does make those around him better in general, as did Kobe. I'm simply combating the lazy opinion that "Kobe was a bad teammate" and "Lebron makes everyone better".

Lebron doesn't make everyone better, he makes 3 PT specialists better. Ask Love and Bosh how great Lebron made them. Ask Kyrie why he asked to leave.

LOL at the thought of Kobe being a better teammate. Remember the ESPN mag article about "Nobody wants to play with Kobe"? For every Kyrie, there is a Dwight Howard. Do better.

 

[ulukinatme]

Ask Kyrie why he asked to leave.

You're gonna ask a guy that thinks the world is flat a question like that?

Kyrie left because he wanted to be the guy, and lets face it, he was always going to be second fiddle to LeBron while LeBron was in Cleveland. He probably saw a bigger paycheck in Boston too. Kyrie isn't going to be the guy though, I think his knees are getting worse and he wasn't really the leader in Cleveland before LeBron came back. He's a great shooter, but his defense has been suspect at times, so he remains a great shooter and that's about it.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

NBA Thread

but his defense has been suspect at times, so he remains a great shooter and that's about it.

Bit of an understatement:

Kyrie had a DRPM of -1.31 this year, putting him in the bottom 10% of all 104 qualifying PGS. To put in perspective how bad he really is at defense, James Harden had a DRPM nearly 5 times better.

Heres a look at Kyrie on defense:

 

[Irish#1]

I'm not saying Lebron makes teammates bad. I think he does make those around him better in general, as did Kobe. I'm simply combating the lazy opinion that "Kobe was a bad teammate" and "Lebron makes everyone better".

Lebron doesn't make everyone better, he makes 3 PT specialists better. Ask Love and Bosh how great Lebron made them. Ask Kyrie why he asked to leave.

Repeat after me, Kobe didn't make his teammates better, Kobe didn't make his teammates better.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

Baynes is getting pushed in the back underneath every shot. No FT for Boston 14 minutes in. Wish this was shocking news.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Baynes is getting pushed in the back underneath every shot. No FT for Boston 14 minutes in. Wish this was shocking news.

Yep. It's crazy how each game is a microcosm with "unique" officiating.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

Yep. It's crazy how each game is a microcosm with "unique" officiating.

Van Gundy said:

Lebron doesnt get many calls because hes so strong.

Feel like Im taking crazy pills listening to this clown.......

 

[greyhammer90]

Van Gundy said:

Lebron doesnt get many calls because hes so strong.

Feel like Im taking crazy pills listening to this clown.......

He's definitely underfouled because there are a lot of drives where there is clear contact and no foul call because he goes right through defenders. Shaq had a similar issue, though he had it way worse. It definitely evens out though because refs never call fouls on Lebron either. Like, no NBA refs, I don't believe Lebron can play 38 minutes while slashing the paint and bodying people on defense and get his 2nd personal deep in the 4th. I don't even need to watch the game to know that's bullshit.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

He's definitely underfouled because there are a lot of drives where there is clear contact and no foul call because he goes right through defenders. Shaq had a similar issue, though he had it way worse. It definitely evens out though because refs never call fouls on Lebron either. Like, no NBA refs, I don't believe Lebron can play 38 minutes while slashing the paint and bodying people on defense and get his 2nd personal deep in the 4th. I don't even need to watch the game to know that's bullshit.

I completely agree with this. It was the same w/Shaq, like you said. People were legitimately using all of their strength just to fight his backdown to the post.

I complain about officiating with college football but unless there are just way too many pass interference calls (or lackof calls), I feel like the game is usually settled on the field.

Basketball is completely different. I can routinely watch a game and leave with the notion it was partially decided by the refs. Maybe it's just the nature of the game and the subjectivity of the calls?

And one final thing: What is actually a moving screen? Because that is the most inconsistent call out there. Players like Tristan Thompson set screens and continue moving back and forth as the player tries to get around (and I do mean after contact). Isn't that the definition of moving screen?

 

[wizards8507]

He's definitely underfouled because there are a lot of drives where there is clear contact and no foul call because he goes right through defenders. Shaq had a similar issue, though he had it way worse. It definitely evens out though because refs never call fouls on Lebron either. Like, no NBA refs, I don't believe Lebron can play 38 minutes while slashing the paint and bodying people on defense and get his 2nd personal deep in the 4th. I don't even need to watch the game to know that's bullshit.

Pass interference against Rob Gronkowski is the same way.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Unless the Cavs undergo huge roster turnover or bring in a premier (top 5) talent to join James, there is no way he stays.

The man just put up a 42 pt triple double and Love had 22 and 15 and they still lost by double digits to the undermanned Celtics.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

I'll take a large Vbuck bet hard on the under on 40 for Lebron in game 2.

I don't think he's going to get easy looks unless he can cry his way to the line fro 15 FTs.

I was coming back to take my vbucks but couldn't find my reply. For shame.

 

[Irish#1]

Pass interference against Rob Gronkowski is the same way.

 

[wizards8507]

Virtual hug.

 

[koonja]

I was coming back to take my vbucks but couldn't find my reply. For shame.

You would have collected! Celtics took a very different approach than I thought they would. Notice they never double team Lebron (Kobe was double teamed his whole life, there's my plug).

They seem very happy to let him score, but stop the shooters. He'll have a big series if they stay this way, and they should, because it's working.

 

[Ndaccountant]

You would have collected! Celtics took a very different approach than I thought they would. Notice they never double team Lebron (Kobe was double teamed his whole life, there's my plug).

They seem very happy to let him score, but stop the shooters. He'll have a big series if they stay this way, and they should, because it's working.

Right!? Look at all those assists he had off those double teams! Mini John Stockton.

 

[stlnd01]

You would have collected! Celtics took a very different approach than I thought they would. Notice they never double team Lebron (Kobe was double teamed his whole life, there's my plug).

They seem very happy to let him score, but stop the shooters. He'll have a big series if they stay this way, and they should, because it's working.

He’ll have a big series, and he’ll lose. I said it after Game 1 and it’s even more apparent after Game 2. LeBron alone isn’t going to beat the Celtics. They’re too deep, too good at defense and they have home court.

 

[koonja]

He’ll have a big series, and he’ll lose. I said it after Game 1 and it’s even more apparent after Game 2. LeBron alone isn’t going to beat the Celtics. They’re too deep, too good at defense and they have home court.

He has plenty of help, he's just not getting anything out of it. Take that how you will.

George Hill averaged 17 Ppg game before joining Lebron. No Celtic averages that, Jaylen Brown is closest with 14.5.

Kevin Love is better than Al Horford, and is in his prime. He was a 25/12 guy before joining Lebron. He's still statistically better, but again, nothing from him. Even this year he was a much better player than Horford, averaging 18 and 10 to Horford's 12 and 8.

Kyle Korver is a top 10 3 point shooter of all time.

Statistically, Lebron is playing with the next 2 best scores in the series ON HIS TEAM (Love, Hill). The Celtics are not stars, guys.

Lebron has plenty of help. What he doesn't have is leadership, grit, and a good coach. But this is the NBA, coaching is not everything, it's on the players too, and it's definitely on him that players seem to come play with him and drop off of the map.

If you love stats, players do not get better playing with Lebron. Some 3 point shooters become relevant, but it's a freaking myth that he makes everyone better. He ignores the post like crazy, which is why Love and Bosh had massive drops in value when joining him.

Lebron makes shooting guards better, not "everyone around him".