Jim Harbaugh

[Circa]

Would he get an NFL job at this point? I didn’t follow it closely but I remember the impression that he was he was run out of San Francisco, or at least they weren’t sorry to see him go. His act wears thin on professionals. He isn’t really “succeeding” in college football. And even the NFL is moving away from his boring-ass offensive philosophy.

He was told to take his weirdness elsewhere.

 

[Irishize]

Would he get an NFL job at this point? I didn’t follow it closely but I remember the impression that he was he was run out of San Francisco, or at least they weren’t sorry to see him go. His act wears thin on professionals. He isn’t really “succeeding” in college football. And even the NFL is moving away from his boring-ass offensive philosophy.

Kliff Kingsbury is all you need to see to know some team would take a flyer on Harbaugh.

 

[phork]

Kliff Kingsbury is all you need to see to know some team would take a flyer on Harbaugh.

Well taking a flyer on Harbaugh is not really apt. He went to a Superbowl and has, albeit small, successful NFL track record.

His narrative is based on the fact that about year 5 things start to sour. People don't like his schtick. Frankly we wouldn't even be talking about him had he not lucked into Luck at Stanford.

 

[IrishLion]

Well taking a flyer on Harbaugh is not really apt. He went to a Superbowl and has, albeit small, successful NFL track record.

His narrative is based on the fact that about year 5 things start to sour. People don't like his schtick. Frankly we wouldn't even be talking about him had he not lucked into Luck at Stanford.

Jim Harbaugh as a good coach is a myth. I've always said it.

He did a good job at turning Stanford around, but it was really based on two things: (1) his pro-style offense allowing him to keep any game close by virtue of shortening the game, and (2) getting Andrew Luck, who was going to be good regardless of where he went, which allowed that conservative style to go wayyyyy over the top of its expected success rate.

Then, he got to the NFL, and was at the forefront of the QB-run game. Kaepernick's ability to run the read before NFL DC's had adjusted was the primary driver of San Francisco's success, IMO, rather than Harbaugh. Harbaugh gets credit for building the team around Kaepernick and his abilities, but any number of coaches probably would have gone that way based on the situation.

So he lucked into coaching Andrew Luck, who was going to be a stud no matter what. And he rode Kaepernick to success before NFL DC's had adjusted to a true option offense. And that's why everyone thinks he's a QB whisperer and a great coach.

IT'S A MYTH.

 

[ickythump1225]

Jim Harbaugh as a good coach is a myth. I've always said it.

He did a good job at turning Stanford around, but it was really based on two things: (1) his pro-style offense allowing him to keep any game close by virtue of shortening the game, and (2) getting Andrew Luck, who was going to be good regardless of where he went, which allowed that conservative style to go wayyyyy over the top of its expected success rate.

Then, he got to the NFL, and was at the forefront of the QB-run game. Kaepernick's ability to run the read before NFL DC's had adjusted was the primary driver of San Francisco's success, IMO, rather than Harbaugh. Harbaugh gets credit for building the team around Kaepernick and his abilities, but any number of coaches probably would have gone that way based on the situation.

So he lucked into coaching Andrew Luck, who was going to be a stud no matter what. And he rode Kaepernick to success before NFL DC's had adjusted to a true option offense. And that's why everyone thinks he's a QB whisperer and a great coach.

IT'S A MYTH.

Not that I'm a Harbaugh guy but you're underselling what he did at both Stanford and San Fran. Both were absolute dumpster fires when he got there. Stanford football historically sucks. They didn't even go to a bowl game when they had John freaking Elway. But I would say that David Shaw has proven to be the better coach which I didn't expect.

SF was like Browns/Raiders/Lions tier before Harbaugh got there and then he went 13-3 with Alex Smith as his QB and lost in OT (IIRC) to a Giants team in the NFCCG that went on to win the Super Bowl. He then went to the SB and almost won it with a QB that has no business starting in the NFL, then went back to the NFCCG in 2013 playing the clearly better Seahawks down to the wire. In his first three seasons there he went to two NFCCG playing them to the wire, and a SB that had ended up being extremely close. The Niners have reverted to sucking since he's left.

I think Harbaugh is a good coach, but I don't think he's a great coach. UM fans like to fancy him in the Saban, Swinney and formerly Urban Meyer tier of coaches but he's not. I think he would have been better off staying in the NFL.

 

[ThePiombino]

The main issue, IMO, is that they gave him a Saban-level contract when he originally came on board. And there are a LOT of stakeholders in Harbaugh succeeding.



But he can't win his half of the conference, can't win major bowl games, and can't beat his rivals.



So how do you reconcile his contract with his performance? You really can't. 10-3 seasons are fine for most schools, but most schools aren't paying $8mil+/year for a "lifetime" contract and don't have delusions of being a Tier 1 school.



What I don't know is whether his albatross of a contract makes him easier or harder to fire. How much is guaranteed? How much do people want to be proven "right" about Harbaugh? The main reason Kelly kept his job after 4-8 was the $$ and lack of clear "upgrades on the market. I think the same thing largely applies to Michigan trying to jettison Harbaugh.

Devil's advocate: is Michigan currently a more attractive job than ND was after the 2016 season?

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[IrishLion]

Not that I'm a Harbaugh guy but you're underselling what he did at both Stanford and San Fran. Both were absolute dumpster fires when he got there. Stanford football historically sucks. They didn't even go to a bowl game when they had John freaking Elway. But I would say that David Shaw has proven to be the better coach which I didn't expect.

SF was like Browns/Raiders/Lions tier before Harbaugh got there and then he went 13-3 with Alex Smith as his QB and lost in OT (IIRC) to a Giants team in the NFCCG that went on to win the Super Bowl. He then went to the SB and almost won it with a QB that has no business starting in the NFL, then went back to the NFCCG in 2013 playing the clearly better Seahawks down to the wire. In his first three seasons there he went to two NFCCG playing them to the wire, and a SB that had ended up being extremely close. The Niners have reverted to sucking since he's left.

I think Harbaugh is a good coach, but I don't think he's a great coach. UM fans like to fancy him in the Saban, Swinney and formerly Urban Meyer tier of coaches but he's not. I think he would have been better off staying in the NFL.

I won't argue you on San Fran, but I think what he did at Stanford was a mirage, in retrospect.

He installed a pro-style system to shorten games and take 'advantage' of Stanford's talent deficit, allowing them to keep games close and compete with teams that normally would've boat-raced them. That's obviously smart, and well-executed, but there are many coaches out there that could do something similar.

It worked out more perfectly than even Harbaugh could have intended, though, because he managed to get Andrew Luck. And he gets credit for 'developing' Luck, even though Luck would've been one the GOAT college QB's, regardless of where he went to school.

Now that he's at scUM, you can see the clear ceiling that his system and coaching style put on his team. He's just like everyone else, really, in that he needs a generational QB to look exceptional.

He's not worth all the hype, and definitely not worth the money, IMO.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Devil's advocate: is Michigan currently a more attractive job than ND was after the 2016 season?

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I mean, you'd gotta think so, right?

 

[Rogue219]

They would have to buy out Jim and then buyout Matt Campbell at Iowa State, who I believe signed an extension recently?

That won't be cheap, but I assume that's who they'll want and Campbell would likely listen.

 

[irishtrooper]

They will not be firing Harbaugh unless-

The train goes WAY off the tracks, like lose all games he might lose (OSU, ND, Iowa, PSU, MSU) AND an embarrassing loss to an also-ran Indiana or something. Basically he would need to crap the bed and continue to have his charming disposition

His buyout is expensive and to get a replacement that gets the program excited again, they’d likely have to pony up more money to buy out another coach to poach away from an up and coming team. Oh, and they’re going to have to pay him too

I think it’s probably ideal right now. They seem to be in a tough spot. He has proven he can’t be nearly as successful as they believe they should. These recruits are all his. He’s been there half a decade and has nobody to blame but himself. The fact he keeps scrapping plans after a year or so shows he has a certain degree of panic.

I wonder if/when he may lose Don Brown as DC. He’s (other than a game here and there) been pretty good. Maybe he realizes he’s not going to improve his lot and take a MAC level job. I think that hurts bad if it happens as their defense is the reason they’re not a 5-6 loss team each year....

 

[zelezo vlk]

They will not be firing Harbaugh unless-

The train goes WAY off the tracks, like lose all games he might lose (OSU, ND, Iowa, PSU, MSU) AND an embarrassing loss to an also-ran Indiana or something. Basically he would need to crap the bed and continue to have his charming disposition

His buyout is expensive and to get a replacement that gets the program excited again, they’d likely have to pony up more money to buy out another coach to poach away from an up and coming team. Oh, and they’re going to have to pay him too

I think it’s probably ideal right now. They seem to be in a tough spot. He has proven he can’t be nearly as successful as they believe they should. These recruits are all his. He’s been there half a decade and has nobody to blame but himself. The fact he keeps scrapping plans after a year or so shows he has a certain degree of panic.

I wonder if/when he may lose Don Brown as DC. He’s (other than a game here and there) been pretty good. Maybe he realizes he’s not going to improve his lot and take a MAC level job. I think that hurts bad if it happens as their defense is the reason they’re not a 5-6 loss team each year....

Idk why Don Brown would leave. He's 64 years old; I doubt he really has the kinda years left to make a push at being a high level HC. Besides, he's got to be making a good amount of money as DC

 

[irishtrooper]

Idk why Don Brown would leave. He's 64 years old; I doubt he really has the kinda years left to make a push at being a high level HC. Besides, he's got to be making a good amount of money as DC

I guess I should have clarified if he’s going to want a shot as a HC. I don’t pretend to know his intentions. Les Miles is up there and took a job at Kansas.... You never know

 

[IrishLax]

Devil's advocate: is Michigan currently a more attractive job than ND was after the 2016 season?

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Probably. Right? I actually don't know though, because being in the same half a conference as Ohio State is by default a losing proposition. It's like signing up for an SEC West coaching job... not necessarily an enviable proposition.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

Most Michigan fans still hold the belief of "who else can we hire? Who is better?" They are fearful/complacent about firing the guy who they all believed was their savior. Hear so many scUM fans call in to Mike Valenti every day.

But outside looking in, it just doesn't make any sense. They have an abysmal record against top 25 teams and against their rivals. You have to wonder when enough is enough. If it were anyone other than Harbaugh this year would be the final straw.

 

[IrishLax]

Jim Harbaugh as a good coach is a myth. I've always said it.

He did a good job at turning Stanford around, but it was really based on two things: (1) his pro-style offense allowing him to keep any game close by virtue of shortening the game, and (2) getting Andrew Luck, who was going to be good regardless of where he went, which allowed that conservative style to go wayyyyy over the top of its expected success rate.

Then, he got to the NFL, and was at the forefront of the QB-run game. Kaepernick's ability to run the read before NFL DC's had adjusted was the primary driver of San Francisco's success, IMO, rather than Harbaugh. Harbaugh gets credit for building the team around Kaepernick and his abilities, but any number of coaches probably would have gone that way based on the situation.

So he lucked into coaching Andrew Luck, who was going to be a stud no matter what. And he rode Kaepernick to success before NFL DC's had adjusted to a true option offense. And that's why everyone thinks he's a QB whisperer and a great coach.

IT'S A MYTH.

Right. He cut his teeth at a division of football no one cares about. Then he went to Stanford, and through a combination of cheating + a generational QB + great assistants he did some OK things. But the team was *better* after he left.

Then in the NFL, he took over a team with the most loaded defense in the whole league and had some limited success. But was still so impossible to deal with that he got booted to the curb by management, and it's well known that a lot of his players had major issues with him. In fact, there are LOTS of people both on and off the record at every level that have unkind things to say about him and that's *very rare* because culturally people tend to try to not air those grievances publicly.

At Michigan, he comes in and signs ELITE recruiting classes based on his pedigree. Still can't beat his rivals or win anything that matters. So now when you compare him apples-to-apples with other college coaches... what makes him a good coach?

He's not a great program builder like Saban, Dabo, or Smart. He's not a good CEO type like Kelly, Patterson, or Petersen. He's not a talent maximizer like Campbell, Fitzgerald, or Dantonio. He's not a good offensive mind like Gundy, Leach, or Riley. He's not a defensive mind, period.

So what is he? A figurehead that likes sleepovers? A guy who takes credit for defensive performance despite never having played or coached on that side of the ball? A QB whisper with no idea how to coach QBs or run an offense?

He's basically a con man that somehow robbed Michigan of $8mil+ a year and parlayed his name + the ESPN hype train into elite recruiting talent. Once that dries up for him it could get ugly. He's basically a way less charismatic, more crazy version of James Franklin. I think he is the 7th best coach in the Big Ten, and that's being generous.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Most Michigan fans still hold the belief of "who else can we hire? Who is better?" They are fearful/complacent about firing the guy who they all believed was their savior. Hear so many scUM fans call in to Mike Valenti every day.

But outside looking in, it just doesn't make any sense. They have an abysmal record against top 25 teams and against their rivals. You have to wonder when enough is enough. If it were anyone other than Harbaugh this year would be the final straw.

Recruiting isn't as good as it was but the bottom hasn't exactly fallen out. They'll sign a top 20 class this year.

And Harbaugh's overall record at Michigan is 40-15.

I agree with all these assessments concluding he's not a great coach but there's hardly any rush to cut bait now rather than wait another year and see... unless you've decided to turn your attention to Matt Campbell before somebody else beats you to it.

 

[zelezo vlk]

What's the biggest win of Harbaugh's time at Michigan? Was it some Penn State victory when they were a top 20 team? Or one of the MSU victories?

Furthermore, has he won a game that his team shouldn't have? Because I can't think of any.

 

[Luckylucci]

The offense continues to suck, shocker! And the defense isn't as good as last year without all that talent, also shocker! I mean who could've seen this coming? Don Brown's defense getting exposed again in a big game.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

What's the biggest win of Harbaugh's time at Michigan? Was it some Penn State victory when they were a top 20 team? Or one of the MSU victories?

Furthermore, has he won a game that his team shouldn't have? Because I can't think of any.

In a three week stretch last year they beat:

#15 Wisconsin 38-13
@ 24 MSU 21-7
#14 Penn State 42-7

That was a pretty good run.

 

[zelezo vlk]

In a three week stretch last year they beat:

#15 Wisconsin 38-13
@ 24 MSU 21-7
#14 Penn State 42-7

That was a pretty good run.

So at home vs Penn State where they were double digit favorites is his best win? I guess it could be. That Penn State team did end the year ranked, but was 9-4.

 

[Wild Bill]

Recruiting isn't as good as it was but the bottom hasn't exactly fallen out. They'll sign a top 20 class this year.

And Harbaugh's overall record at Michigan is 40-15.

I agree with all these assessments concluding he's not a great coach but there's hardly any rush to cut bait now rather than wait another year and see... unless you've decided to turn your attention to Matt Campbell before somebody else beats you to it.

Have to agree. What's lost here is just how bad Michigan was prior to Harbaugh being hired. They were 38-26 overall and 21-19 in the Big Ten (less than .500 in three of those seasons) in the five years prior to Harbaugh getting the job.

Harbaugh is 40-15 overall and 26-9 in the Big 10, which is a significant improvement. He has his flaws but overall he's improved their overall record, significantly improved their Big 10 record, and the cupboard is relatively stocked with recruits for the next head coach, assuming they fire him.

From the outside looking in, it seems Michigan's best path to Big 10 titles plus playoffs is being patient with Harbaugh plus OSU coming back to reality with Day as HC.

 

[phork]

Just browsing the Mgoblog boards.. Fun fact. In 2018 Harballz signed 0 Dlinemen.

PS: I never was impressed by Don Brown. They man handled schools with super inferior talent but still let other equal or superior schools pound him.

 

[stlnd01]

Just browsing the Mgoblog boards.. Fun fact. In 2018 Harballz signed 0 Dlinemen.

PS: I never was impressed by Don Brown. They man handled schools with super inferior talent but still let other equal or superior schools pound him.

He had pretty salty defenses at BC. Imagine if we’d hired him instead of Van Gorder...

 

[Classic Irish]

Right. He cut his teeth at a division of football no one cares about. Then he went to Stanford, and through a combination of cheating + a generational QB + great assistants he did some OK things. But the team was *better* after he left.

Then in the NFL, he took over a team with the most loaded defense in the whole league and had some limited success. But was still so impossible to deal with that he got booted to the curb by management, and it's well known that a lot of his players had major issues with him. In fact, there are LOTS of people both on and off the record at every level that have unkind things to say about him and that's *very rare* because culturally people tend to try to not air those grievances publicly.

At Michigan, he comes in and signs ELITE recruiting classes based on his pedigree. Still can't beat his rivals or win anything that matters. So now when you compare him apples-to-apples with other college coaches... what makes him a good coach?

He's not a great program builder like Saban, Dabo, or Smart. He's not a good CEO type like Kelly, Patterson, or Petersen. He's not a talent maximizer like Campbell, Fitzgerald, or Dantonio. He's not a good offensive mind like Gundy, Leach, or Riley. He's not a defensive mind, period.

So what is he? A figurehead that likes sleepovers? A guy who takes credit for defensive performance despite never having played or coached on that side of the ball? A QB whisper with no idea how to coach QBs or run an offense?

He's basically a con man that somehow robbed Michigan of $8mil+ a year and parlayed his name + the ESPN hype train into elite recruiting talent. Once that dries up for him it could get ugly. He's basically a way less charismatic, more crazy version of James Franklin. I think he is the 7th best coach in the Big Ten, and that's being generous.

I think this is right on target. One question: what did he do at Stanford that was cheating? Not doubting you, just unaware.

 

[stpeteirish]

He had pretty salty defenses at BC. Imagine if we’d hired him instead of Van Gorder...

But he coached for 20 years without much distinction before the big breakthru at BC. Maybe he's just reverting to the mean.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I don't think he's a bad coach. Guy knows ball and knows what he's doing. Should he be fired? No way, but he's definitely the most overpaid coach in college football.

 

[ACamp1900]

I don't think he's a bad coach. Guy knows ball and knows what he's doing. Should he be fired? No way, but he's definitely the most overpaid coach in college football.

Agreed

 

[Valpodoc85]

Harbaugh brings a rare intensity. It was embraced when he arrived. Suspect it is wearing thin. Hard to lead from the top when your coordinators despise you

 

[ickythump1225]

I won't argue you on San Fran, but I think what he did at Stanford was a mirage, in retrospect.

He installed a pro-style system to shorten games and take 'advantage' of Stanford's talent deficit, allowing them to keep games close and compete with teams that normally would've boat-raced them. That's obviously smart, and well-executed, but there are many coaches out there that could do something similar.

It worked out more perfectly than even Harbaugh could have intended, though, because he managed to get Andrew Luck. And he gets credit for 'developing' Luck, even though Luck would've been one the GOAT college QB's, regardless of where he went to school.

Now that he's at scUM, you can see the clear ceiling that his system and coaching style put on his team. He's just like everyone else, really, in that he needs a generational QB to look exceptional.

He's not worth all the hype, and definitely not worth the money, IMO.

I don't think what he did at Stanford was a mirage at all. "Anyone could do it" then how come literally no one else since like the days of Pop Warner had won consistently at Stanford then? How come no one else did it? Shaw has just followed the blueprint that Harbaugh laid out and is a much better coach than I thought he would be.

Also for what it's worth, Harbaugh won 11 games 2x at USD winning 2 Pioneer League titles before going to Stanford. I mean I hate that I feel compelled to defend the guy but Harbaugh is a good coach, maybe even a very good one. The problem is delusional Michigan fans thought of him as elite and the same caliber as Saban and that's clearly not the case. I also think Michigan fans are delusional about the actual state of Michigan football. Harbaugh isn't really having results that far off from his Stanford days actually, the difference is entirely in expectations.

 

[ickythump1225]

Then in the NFL, he took over a team with the most loaded defense in the whole league and had some limited success. B

A defense and team that was so LOADED it had 8 losing seasons in the last 9 years (the non losing season being an 8-8 mark) and had started the year 0-5 in 2010 finishing the year 6-10. "Limited success" being 13-3 his first team, losing by a FG in OT to the eventual SB champs in the NFCCG, losing by 3 in the Super Bowl the next year, and going down to the wire in the NFCCG the very next year against the clearly better Seahawks on the road. He was a few bad breaks away from winning a SB and appearing in 3 straight SBs. Also who can forget his QBs during this time were Alex Smith and Kaepernick. I guess that's "limited" in the sense that it wasn't a long Belichek-esque run.

I think hatred of Michigan and Harbaugh makes our fan base compelled to make him out to be Lane Kiffin or something. He's not.