How many more chances does Golson get?

[IRISH in MT]

I know the first reaction from most of you is "Golson is 19-4 (or whatever it is) as a starter so you can't bench him." Well, he is also 1-3 in his last 4 games and is averaging 3 turnovers a game for the past 7 games. I think it is time to think about the saying, "You're only as good as your last game." Or in this case, his last 2!

So, when does Everett get the hook and Malik get a chance for his first win? How many more losses does EG get before is record as a starter is meaningless? Too much talent is sitting on the sidelines while the trusted favorites keep getting chance after chance. The leash on RB fumbles is very short but there seems to be no end to EG's leash at QB?!

I am NOT saying we need to pull the plug completely on EG. His talent ability is one of the best in the country + he seems very competitive so maybe watching from the sidelines for a half or a game would fire him up enough to focus more on ball security. As bad as the defense has been, gifting 3 turnovers a game will never make you a Champion.

 

[wizards8507]

There are two separate questions here:

1. How many more chances should Golson get?
2. How many more chances will Brian Kelly give him?

My answer to #1 is that we should have seen Malik by now. My answer to #2 is that I don't think he'll play a meaningful snap until 2016.

 

[Emcee77]

I don't think you can even consider turning it over to Malik until the defense improves. If we had a strong D, then you can say, we need a steady QB who won't turn the ball over. But in our 3 losses, we have given up 31, 55 (some defensive, to be fair) and 43 points. As long as our D is giving up that many points, we need to play the QB who gives us the best chance to outscore opponents. I have no reason to believe that that is the guy who has never thrown a collegiate pass.

Basically, if we have our 2012 D, there would be at least an argument for giving Malik a shot. With this current D, there is no reasonable argument to make in that regard, imo. Golson put up 27, 31 and 40 points in the three losses. That should have been enough to win those games, with the possible exception of FSU. True, against ASU Golson gave away the ball deep in ND territory. But we've got to force a field goal on at least some of those possessions. Golson's second half play should have been enough to bring us back.

I am concerned about Golson's turnovers, but I am much more concerned about the defense. It's in shambles right now.

 

[RDU Irish]

The real tragedy is our failure to blow ANYONE out has kept Malik from seeing the field. In an alternate universe, he starts the entire 4Qs vs. Navy, Northwestern, North Carolina....... well you get the point.

Our defense is the problem, not Golson.

 

[clashmore_jon]

regarding ASU at least, coach BK pinned the majority of the turnovers on miscues that put golson in awful positions.

 

[NDohio]

I don't think you can even consider turning it over to Malik until the defense improves. If we had a strong D, then you can say, we need a steady QB who won't turn the ball over. But in our 3 losses, we have given up 31, 55 (some defensive, to be fair) and 43 points. As long as our D is giving up that many points, we need to play the QB who gives us the best chance to outscore opponents. I have no reason to believe that that is the guy who has never thrown a collegiate pass.

Basically, if we have our 2012 D, there would be at least an argument for giving Malik a shot. With this current D, there is no reasonable argument to make in that regard, imo. Golson put up 27, 31 and 40 points in the three losses. That should have been enough to win those games, with the possible exception of FSU. True, against ASU Golson gave away the ball deep in ND territory. But we've got to force a field goal on at least some of those possessions. Golson's second half play should have been enough to bring us back.

I am concerned about Golson's turnovers, but I am much more concerned about the defense. It's in shambles right now.

.. there would be no reason to be having these discussions as, even with the turnovers, we would be putting up enough points to win the game.

Agree with your post. Fixing Golson is a worry, but not the most important one.

 

[phork]

Lets pick on the defence a little bit first. Golson has almost 3100 yards passing with 27 TDs to 12INTs. Almost 300 yards running and 7 more TDs. His mistakes hurt, but I can't count deflections as true turn overs.

Fix the defense and the chatter about Golson goes away too because we'd be blowing these teams out otherwise.

 

[pkt77242]

Lets pick on the defence a little bit first. Golson has almost 3100 yards passing with 27 TDs to 12INTs. Almost 300 yards running and 7 more TDs. His mistakes hurt, but I can't count deflections as true turn overs.

Fix the defense and the chatter about Golson goes away too because we'd be blowing these teams out otherwise.

You conveniently left out the fumbles. According to rotoworld (which got the info from ESPN) he has 9 on the season.

Notre Dame redshirt junior QB Everett Golson suffered a sprained shoulder in Saturday's tilt with Northwestern.
Golson completed 21-of-40 passes for 287 yards, three touchdowns and an interception. The redshirt junior also fumbled once in the game, giving him nine fumbles on the season. Said Kelly, "There were certainly a couple of throws when he first did it where he put the ball into the ground. You could see that [the shoulder] affected him then. He said he was fine after that but obviously we missed some throws, especially in overtime."

Recent news on Everett Golson - Notre Dame Fighting Irish - Rotoworld.com

 

[GoldenDomer]

Why not let Malik get a shot now? If he blows it, back to EG. What do we have to lose?

 

[JadeBrecks]

Lets pick on the defence a little bit first. Golson has almost 3100 yards passing with 27 TDs to 12INTs. Almost 300 yards running and 7 more TDs. His mistakes hurt, but I can't count deflections as true turn overs.

Fix the defense and the chatter about Golson goes away too because we'd be blowing these teams out otherwise.

I can't really fault the defense on this one. They have been destroyed on injuries this year. If you took away the pick 6s and the offense giving the other team the ball inside the 20 we would have totally different outcomes in these games. I am not going to call for Golsons head either though. If we had an offensive line that gave him a few seconds it would help. Both of those things being said bringing Malik in for a set of downs after some of the bad decisions (not all turnovers were Golsons bad decisions) Golson made I think would have helped clear his head a bit.

 

[connor_in]

The real tragedy is our failure to blow ANYONE out has kept Malik from seeing the field. In an alternate universe, he starts the entire 4Qs vs. Navy, Northwestern, North Carolina....... well you get the point.

Our defense is the problem, not just Golson.

fify

 

[pkt77242]

I don't think you can even consider turning it over to Malik until the defense improves. If we had a strong D, then you can say, we need a steady QB who won't turn the ball over. But in our 3 losses, we have given up 31, 55 (some defensive, to be fair) and 43 points. As long as our D is giving up that many points, we need to play the QB who gives us the best chance to outscore opponents. I have no reason to believe that that is the guy who has never thrown a collegiate pass.

Basically, if we have our 2012 D, there would be at least an argument for giving Malik a shot. With this current D, there is no reasonable argument to make in that regard, imo. Golson put up 27, 31 and 40 points in the three losses. That should have been enough to win those games, with the possible exception of FSU. True, against ASU Golson gave away the ball deep in ND territory. But we've got to force a field goal on at least some of those possessions. Golson's second half play should have been enough to bring us back.

I am concerned about Golson's turnovers, but I am much more concerned about the defense. It's in shambles right now.

Well to be fair he only put up 33 vs NW as the D added 7. Also part of the reason we have given up so many points is his turnovers. Look at the ASU game they scored in the first half because of the turnovers. In the 2nd half Golson played better but everyone seems to leave out that our D held them without a score for their first 5 possessions of the 2nd half. Shockingly that is a big reason that we came back in the 2nd half not just Golson but to hear the Golson apologists it was only because of Golson that we came back.

I believe that Golson should be our QB for the time being (if he keeps turning it over though I might change my mind) but too many people on here are glossing over his mistakes very quickly and just pointing out what he does well.

 

[woolybug25]

Everybody wants to dog on the defense, but do you guys realize that there have been 78 points scored on drives started because of an offensive turnover?

So sure our defense hasn't been great. But the offense has been putting them in terrible positions and on the field the whole game. Things would be a lot different right now if we weren't spotting teams more than a touchdown every game.

 

[pkt77242]

Fix the defense and the chatter about Golson goes away too because we'd be blowing these teams out otherwise.

Seriously?

Against ASU we lost because of turnovers. Go back and look at the drives. In the 2nd half we held them without points on the first 5 drives and to end the 2nd half we held them to 3 points in 2 drives. Our D didn't play that bad, our offense shit the bed, to blame that on the D is revisionist at best.

Against NW it was a combo of our D not being able to stop shit and us turning it over. It is easy to say that if our D played better we would have beat NW but you could say the same thing about our offense, if we don't turn it over we win as well.

 

[Redbar]

The defense is an entirely separate issue from Golson's play. I am a big Golson fan but right now, the "there is nothing he can do to get the hook" is bad for the team. After a big drive for a score there should be a drive for Zaire that will intentionally be run heavy give the defense a chance to regroup and coach up a bit, give Golson a chance to settle down refocus and realize that he does not have to do everything, be everything, this team can have success with him getting a little tune up from BK and ML. Then go back in the next drive and sling it. It would give Zaire a chance to feel game action and give him a resume, it would probably help Golson as at times I think he is overwhelmed and feels like everything is on him. It would also give the O-line a chance to fire off the ball a little bit and use the physical/size advantage we usually possess. I would love to see this happen once a half.

The biggest problem right now IMO is lack of balance offensively, predictability and lack of physicality on both sides of the ball, and most of all stubborn coaching!

 

[koonja]

On a semi-related note, how does Lafluer grade out? Maybe Golson's just so low football-IQ that he can't read a defense/throw over the middle, but that's a big conclusion to jump to. Lafluer has one job, QBs.

 

[GoldenDome]

It is not the INTs that bother though. It is his irresponsibility with holding onto the football. He pretty much puts the ball on the ground a couple times a game, some of which lead to turnovers, others lead to negative plays.

I thought against Northwestern he played good and was more aware with regard to going down, getting out of bounds, and holding onto the ball like it was his son. But he still has trouble knowing when to eat a play and take the sack as displayed when he threw the ball right into the lineman's head. Where was he throwing that to?

No way should Golson be benched, but some sort of punishment or consequence must take place. Maybe, the next time he turns the ball over, he must carry a pink football around campus wherever he goes. Or 500 burpees would do the trick. Whatever it is, at this point it needs to sink in.

 

[Redbar]

It is not the INTs that bother though. It is his irresponsibility with holding onto the football. He pretty much puts the ball on the ground a couple times a game, some of which lead to turnovers, others lead to negative plays.

I thought against Northwestern he played good and was more aware with regard to going down, getting out of bounds, and holding onto the ball like it was his son. But he still has trouble knowing when to eat a play and take the sack as displayed when he threw the ball right into the lineman's head. Where was he throwing that to?

No way should Golson be benched, but some sort of punishment or consequence must take place. Maybe, the next time he turns the ball over, he must carry a pink football around campus wherever he goes. Or 500 burpees would do the trick. Whatever it is, at this point it needs to sink in.

Or maybe Zaire should get a drive or two a game.

 

[wizards8507]

Is there an advanced statistic for "field position adjusted defense" or something along those lines? I'd be interested to see exactly how bad our defense has been when we factor in average starting field position for our opponents due to all the turnovers.

 

[wizards8507]

Or maybe Zaire should get a drive or two a game.

Exactly. I'm not sure why this is such a controversial position. Nobody has said "bench Golson and then never let him see the field again regardless of how terrible Malik plays." Just give the kid a chance, considering our current option clearly isn't getting it done on a consistent basis. Loads of teams give snaps to multiple quarterbacks within a game.

 

[BobD]

As many as Brian Kelly ( One of the top coaches in college football) wants to give him.

 

[wizards8507]

As many as Brian Kelly (One of the top coaches in college football) wants to give him.

Based on what exactly? I'm no mathematician, but based on my reckoning he's not even in the top 25 of college football coaches.

2014 NCAA College Football Polls and Rankings for Week 13 - ESPN

If you have top 25 talent and top 25 coaching, you should be a top 25 team. It's as simple as that.

 

[gkIrish]

Based on what exactly? I'm no mathematician, but based on my reckoning he's not even in the top 25 of college football coaches.

2014 NCAA College Football Polls and Rankings for Week 13 - ESPN

If you have top 25 talent and top 25 coaching, you should be a top 25 team. It's as simple as that.

So Brian Kelly was a top 5 coach in 2012 but dropped 20+ spots since then is what you're saying. Top form today zards.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

On a semi-related note, how does Lafluer grade out? Maybe Golson's just so low football-IQ that he can't read a defense/throw over the middle, but that's a big conclusion to jump to. Lafluer has one job, QBs.

Holy Crap! I said the exact same thing in one of the threads after The ASU disaster. I don't 'blame' Lafluer by any means for Golsons f - ups, but it seems that we are forgetting he plays a roll, arguably a large one.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

[/B]

Or maybe Zaire should get a drive or two a game.

he is Left handed, I think we forget sometimes what a major change that is. Especially for a drive or two.

 

[wizards8507]

So Brian Kelly was a top 5 coach in 2012 but dropped 20+ spots since then is what you're saying. Top form today zards.

I'm not sure what's inconsistent there. Notre Dame was a top 5 TEAM in 2012 and droped 20+ spots so why isn't it fair to say the same about the coach? Jake Peavy was a Cy Young winner in 2007 and now he sucks. Things change.

he is Left handed, I think we forget sometimes what a major change that is. Especially for a drive or two.

Normally I'd agree, but BK runs a number of boot-left plays with Golson, which would be Malik's strong side.

 

[phork]

I can't really fault the defense on this one. They have been destroyed on injuries this year. If you took away the pick 6s and the offense giving the other team the ball inside the 20 we would have totally different outcomes in these games. I am not going to call for Golsons head either though. If we had an offensive line that gave him a few seconds it would help. Both of those things being said bringing Malik in for a set of downs after some of the bad decisions (not all turnovers were Golsons bad decisions) Golson made I think would have helped clear his head a bit.

Did you ever think that Zaire is not game ready? And Golson gives ND the best chance to win every week? ND is still playing for bowl positions the season is not lost yet.

Seriously?

Against ASU we lost because of turnovers. Go back and look at the drives. In the 2nd half we held them without points on the first 5 drives and to end the 2nd half we held them to 3 points in 2 drives. Our D didn't play that bad, our offense shit the bed, to blame that on the D is revisionist at best.

Against NW it was a combo of our D not being able to stop shit and us turning it over. It is easy to say that if our D played better we would have beat NW but you could say the same thing about our offense, if we don't turn it over we win as well.

Yah ND lost because of turnovers. 2 pick sixes that should have been caught by the receivers but weren't and subsequently were by the D. The D played OK but when the score was 34-3 the dogs were called off and put back on once the score got close.

NW put up 547 yards on ND. That alone would lose you the game. The offence didn't decide to go for 2 or not run out the clock or have Cam fumble it. Thats on Kelly.

What I am saying is that while Golsons TO issues are a problem, with an average D we aren't even talking about it because ND wins those games. And yes I get the D is hurt, suspended etc etc, thats why I said FIX the D first it is NDs greatest area of need right now.

 

[wizards8507]

What I am saying is that while Golsons TO issues are a problem, with an average D we aren't even talking about it because ND wins those games. And yes I get the D is hurt, suspended etc etc, thats why I said FIX the D first it is NDs greatest area of need right now.

I just posted this in the BVG thread, but our defense actually grades out 10 spots higher than our offense.

I'm no expert on newfangled advanced statistics, but it looks like our defense really isn't that bad, 21st in the country based on DFEI. Conversely, our offense is ranked 31st. This seems to confirm my suspicions that the defense has looked inordinately terrible due to turnovers and poor starting field position.

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2014 FEI COLLEGE FOOTBALL RATINGS, OFFENSE

 

[IRISH in MT]

Bottom line, the defense started out young and due to injuries and suspensions has only got younger each week. Golson was supposed to be so improved and such a leader that his play would overcome any defensive problems. He has put the defense in so many bad situations with HIS play that they have been trying to bail him out! I prefer a leader who leads by example. Personally tired of him getting credit for taking blame. Great, now go fix it and shut up. Don't be a problem, be a problem solver!

I specifically said I didn't think Malik should be handed the reins completely. Just wondering what we have to lose putting Malik in for a half or even a full game to make EG jealous and see if his competiveness will allow him to step up to the challenge and motivate him more.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Blame Golson all you want. But Chris Brown fumbled at the goal-line. Cam fumbled trying to ice the game. Brindza missed two FG's. Maliki dropped the snap on an extra point that turned into a 3 point swing. Oh and the defense was horrendous.