Game of Thrones

[IrishLion]

How did Bran fuck up? What time travel and/or skinchanging rules did Bran violate that he should have known would cause Hodor to have a seizure 30 years in the past that fucked up his brain? That scene made no fucking sense.

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He fucked up when he went in without Bloodraven and got his safe-space violated by the Night's King. That put the Hodor events in motion. But it doesn't really matter, because if he wouldn't have done it, Hodor wouldn't have existed from the start, I guess.

Bran can't change the past. This isn't Dynamic Timeline time travel (Back to the Future) or Multiverse time travel (JJ's Star Trek). It's fixed timeline time travel. Anything Bran would go back in time to do, it is already the case that he was there doing it the first time around.

This is where I'm confused. We are in agreement that anything he does would have already happened, meaning he can't technically change the past. That's why I made the comment/prediction about everything being stuck in a sort of loop. In the end, if Bran uses his Bloodraven powers to try and prevent all of these things from happening, won't he actually just be MAKING them happen all over again?

Also, the reason I'm confused about how much he can actually "change" is because of the Hodor thing. Didn't Hodor start seizuring and become Hodor because Bran warged into Hodor while he was already warged into the Heart Tree? He warged with old Hodor at the same *time* as he was watching young Hodor, meaning two events at different times were actually occurring together.

I confused myself more while typing this.

But I think we are in agreement that he can't actually change things, because otherwise none of it would be in motion in the first place. Right?

 

[IrishLion]

Also, in perfect GRRM fashion, we didn't see Hodor's death. We saw him getting scratched and stuff, but we didn't see him actually go down.

Chances are he turns into undead Ice Zombie, but it'd be sweet if Coldhands shows up, as you guys predict, and as a bonus that he also shows up having saved Hodor.

 

[wizards8507]

Quoting in pieces and out of order to address specific points.

He fucked up when he went in without Bloodraven and got his safe-space violated by the Night's King. That put the Hodor events in motion. But it doesn't really matter, because if he wouldn't have done it, Hodor wouldn't have existed from the start, I guess.

On this point, what was Bloodraven doing in that scene anyways? What was he up to with the wight army that prompted Bran to follow him in there?

Also, the reason I'm confused about how much he can actually "change" is because of the Hodor thing. Didn't Hodor start seizuring and become Hodor because Bran warged into Hodor while he was already warged into the Heart Tree? He warged with old Hodor at the same *time* as he was watching young Hodor, meaning two events at different times were actually occurring together.

It appears that Bran can cause things to happen in the past, but that doesn't mean he can change the past. For example, we know that Aerys II Targaryen heard voices. Given that fact, it's possible that Bran goes back in time and we learn that the voices Aerys heard were Bran's. Conversely, if Catelyn Stark never heard voices in all her life, Bran can't go back in time and change that fact and MAKE her hear voices that she never heard "in the first place." Bran was able to go back and mess up Hodor because it was always the case that time-travelling Bran had shown up in Winterfell that day to mess up Hodor.

But I think we are in agreement that he can't actually change things, because otherwise none of it would be in motion in the first place. Right?

Right.

This is where I'm confused. We are in agreement that anything he does would have already happened, meaning he can't technically change the past. That's why I made the comment/prediction about everything being stuck in a sort of loop. In the end, if Bran uses his Bloodraven powers to try and prevent all of these things from happening, won't he actually just be MAKING them happen all over again?

Operative word is "try." We don't really know how much Bran understands about how the rules work. He might think he can go back and try to change the events of the past. If that's what he believes, we'll probably see him trying to change events and inadvertently causing them to come to pass.

 

[phork]

He fucked up when he went in without Bloodraven and got his safe-space violated by the Night's King. That put the Hodor events in motion. But it doesn't really matter, because if he wouldn't have done it, Hodor wouldn't have existed from the start, I guess.



This is where I'm confused. We are in agreement that anything he does would have already happened, meaning he can't technically change the past. That's why I made the comment/prediction about everything being stuck in a sort of loop. In the end, if Bran uses his Bloodraven powers to try and prevent all of these things from happening, won't he actually just be MAKING them happen all over again?

Also, the reason I'm confused about how much he can actually "change" is because of the Hodor thing. Didn't Hodor start seizuring and become Hodor because Bran warged into Hodor while he was already warged into the Heart Tree? He warged with old Hodor at the same *time* as he was watching young Hodor, meaning two events at different times were actually occurring together.

I confused myself more while typing this.

But I think we are in agreement that he can't actually change things, because otherwise none of it would be in motion in the first place. Right?

Much like any sort of "time travel" stuff, just because you can change things doesn't mean you should change things. Because, as in Lost, whatever happened happened. Meaning Hodor will always be Hodor because Bran will always visit the place where he encounters the NK and then be stuck in Warg mode when the WW attack. Every time, at that time, he thinks that is the right thing to do.

 

[wizards8507]

I'm 99.8% sure we're working with a fixed timeline. A multiverse would be off-genre and a dynamic timeline is too gimmicky. Most show-only people are probably most familiar with the dynamic timeline, so be prepared to see ill-informed theories that involve Bran changing the past, the butterfly effect, and nonsense like that.

 

[IrishLion]

He might think he can go back and try to change the events of the past. If that's what he believes, we'll probably see him trying to change events and inadvertently causing them to come to pass.

Much like any sort of "time travel" stuff, just because you can change things doesn't mean you should change things. Because, as in Lost, whatever happened happened. Meaning Hodor will always be Hodor because Bran will always visit the place where he encounters the NK and then be stuck in Warg mode when the WW attack. Every time, at that time, he thinks that is the right thing to do.

Right, this is what I was trying to say. It is a possibility that at some point in the end, Bran is going to go back and try to prevent all of these things from happening, which actually just sets it all into motion, effectively creating a loop.

I can see a Dark-Tower type of ending, where Bran goes back to try and keep some big thing from happening, but it really just sets the events of the series' cold open into motion.

 

[wizards8507]

Right, this is what I was trying to say. It is a possibility that at some point in the end, Bran is going to go back and try to prevent all of these things from happening, which actually just sets it all into motion, effectively creating a loop.

I can see a Dark-Tower type of ending, where Bran goes back to try and keep some big thing from happening, but it really just sets the events of the series' cold open into motion.

There's some crazy shit flying around the internet, and I'm not sure if it's all as crazy as I'd like it to be. One theory says that Bran is Bloodraven is Bran (show only). Another theory says that Bran Stark is Brandon the Builder.

 

[ND NYC]

so, Sansa is pregnant with Ramsay's kid?

 

[gkIrish]

so, Sansa is pregnant with Ramsay's kid?

What makes you say that? Did I miss something?

 

[wizards8507]

so, Sansa is pregnant with Ramsay's kid?

What makes you say that? Did I miss something?

Oooh that's interesting. Possible double-entendre of "I can still feel what he did inside of me."

 

[gkIrish]

Oooh that's interesting. Possible double-entendre of "I can still feel what he did inside of me."

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Well, damn...

 

[ND NYC]

it would a real psycho-red-headed-bastard.

"Chucky of the North!"

 

[GrangerIrish24]

I'd wager good money that Coldhands, aka Uncle Benjen, shows up next episode.

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I thought GRR debunked the Benjen is Coldhands theory?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

That was the most significant episode to date, which confirmed several years-old fan theories: "Hold the door"; Bran breaking Hodor's mind by warging into him in the past; CotF creating the White Walkers, etc.

Can someone explain what was going on with Tyrion/Varys and that priestess? I couldn't follow that at all.

As a child, Varys was gelded by a sorcerer, who used his manhood in some sort of arcane ritual. That's why he has a "healthy skepticism of religion", and why he is immediately hostile toward Kinvara. But then she leaves Varys speechless by revealing secret knowledge of his origins (while the creepy R'hllor theme plays).

It looks to me that they hired the Red God PR firm to win the hearts and minds. Probally not a good idea.

"Your favorability ratings are down this month, Dragon Queen. I suggest burning some heretics!"

2) So are the direwolves just MacGuffins? They seemed like they were being built up as terrific war hounds for the final battle. Now we're down to two, right? Nymeria and Ghost. We haven't seen Nymeria since the first season. Seems like we're about at the end of their relevance.

Kinda disappointing. Martin strongly implied that the dire wolves were very significant. But now that most of them are already dead on screen, that's clearly not the case.

5) I wish they'd cut the Arya plot out of about 3 episodes this season and just pushed them together into the other two. It would feel less stagnant if it wasn't spread so thin.

How many times have we seen the waif kick her ass? Last night's scene seemed oddly sequenced, since last week's episode featured Arya beating her while still blinded. Oh well. Benioff & Weis have to keep Maisie Williams busy until they're ready to advance Arya's plot line.

I'm curious where Jorah will go to get cured. Any theories?

Red Priest like Victarion's arm? Maybe that gets Dany on Team Red?

That'd be my guess as well.

CotF created the White Walkers. Theory confirmed. But what is the WW's purpose? Murdering their creators? On the Behind the Scenes Dan says he's the embodiment of evil. I did not think they'd be so black and white as a zombie death cult. This series has been about the gray in everyone. Perhaps they are just the Dragons of the Ice side, but they can clearly think, plan, and have motivations. I hope they aren't reduced to trying to cover the world in ice and zombies.

That worried me, too. Though the CotF created them thousands of years ago, and they were already stopped once during the Long Night. And their hostility toward Blood Raven and the CotF in the caves is interesting; no idea why the WWs would suddenly turn on their creators after so many millenia. So there's still plenty of room for complexity.

 

[ND NYC]

i still think there is a chance the nights king may turn out NOT to be "the bad guy" when this thing is all over.

and Bran has me worried...

 

[GATTACA!]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/GoT?src=hash">#GoT</a> season feels like "Lost." Turns out last night's ep. was directed by same guy who did "The Constant" <a href="https://t.co/9iDRLQCTmt">https://t.co/9iDRLQCTmt</a></p>— J.A. Adande (@jadande) <a href="https://twitter.com/jadande/status/734729377896759296">May 23, 2016</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

That explains a lot...

Maybe that's why I don't have a problem with any of this lol, I absolutly loved Lost.

I'm 99.8% sure we're working with a fixed timeline. A multiverse would be off-genre and a dynamic timeline is too gimmicky. Most show-only people are probably most familiar with the dynamic timeline, so be prepared to see ill-informed theories that involve Bran changing the past, the butterfly effect, and nonsense like that.

I really hope not. Fixed timelines have the same issue as prequels for me they lose tons of the suspense and intrigue because you already know where things are going.

 

[wizards8507]

I really hope not. Fixed timelines have the same issue as prequels for me they lose tons of the suspense and intrigue because you already know where things are going.

Billy Shakespeare disagrees.

Two households, both alike in dignity,
In fair Verona, where we lay our scene,
From ancient grudge break to new mutiny,
Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean.
From forth the fatal loins of these two foes
A pair of star-cross'd lovers take their life;
Whose misadventured piteous overthrows
Do with their death bury their parents' strife.
The fearful passage of their death-mark'd love,
And the continuance of their parents' rage,
Which, but their children's end, nought could remove,
Is now the two hours' traffic of our stage;
The which if you with patient ears attend,
What here shall miss, our toil shall strive to mend.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Billy Shakespeare disagrees.

Two households, both alike in dignity,
In fair Verona, where we lay our scene,
From ancient grudge break to new mutiny,
Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean.
From forth the fatal loins of these two foes
A pair of star-cross'd lovers take their life;
Whose misadventured piteous overthrows
Do with their death bury their parents' strife.
The fearful passage of their death-mark'd love,
And the continuance of their parents' rage,
Which, but their children's end, nought could remove,
Is now the two hours' traffic of our stage;
The which if you with patient ears attend,
What here shall miss, our toil shall strive to mend.

The problem is that we haven't had a writer like Shakespeare since then. Maybe if Shakespeare was alive today we'd have less Thor movies and more Goodfellas

 

[IrishLax]

On the whole Bran/fixed timeline thing and where he might factor in to past events...
1. My main thought immediately after last night is that it's going to play out that he was the "last hero" bringing the story full circle when Old Nan was telling him his "favorite stories" in Book 1/Season 1.
2. I'm not sure I buy that he'll end up being "Bran the Builder" but maybe we get to meet him through the current Bran.
3. I think it's almost a sure thing that it's going to play out that Bran was a source of Aerys' problems and/or set a lot of other balls rolling to get to the current status quo.

And finally... I'd been split on the white walkers prior to last night's origin reveal, and I think with last night's confirmation of their initial creation it's going to play out that basically the CotF created the walkers to destroy humanity, time traveling Bran convinces the CotF that a world with humans is better than one with walkers and that they're going to lose control of them and it'll be the end of life as we know it, the CotF help the men beat them back, and the walkers raise The Wall to save themselves from extinction. I think the scene where the Night's King displays some control over the earth/elements was put in to foreshadow this.

...then you fast forward to when the Night's King was leader of the Night's Watch (and a Stark)... he finds a rare female WW north of the wall, gets himself turned into his current form by communing with her, and ends up as the alpha dog of the current WWs and has been building his strength for hundreds of years.

 

[irishroo]

i still think there is a chance the nights king may turn out NOT to be "the bad guy" when this thing is all over.

and Bran has me worried...

David Benioff said in the post-episode stuff last night that the Night's King is intended to be the physical embodiment of pure evil

 

[ClausentoTate]

I'm seriously thinking that the three-eyed raven is Bran from the future. Perhaps he takes over his relative of the past and simultaneously dies in his real body, which is why the three-eyed raven is so against him trying to persuade events... it's why he is in the tree and why he had to wait 1000 years for current Bran to arrive. He's effectively invincible until he reconciles the timeline that accomplishes whatever happens in the future.

I'm bored.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I'm seriously thinking that the three-eyed raven is Bran from the future. Perhaps he takes over his relative of the past and simultaneously dies in his real body, which is why the three-eyed raven is so against him trying to persuade events... it's why he is in the tree and why he had to wait 1000 years for current Bran to arrive. He's effectively invincible until he reconciles the timeline that accomplishes whatever happens in the future.

I'm bored.

That's definitely not the case in the books. The Three-Eyed Raven is Brynden Rivers, aka Blood Raven, a Targaryen bastard.

 

[GATTACA!]

On the whole Bran/fixed timeline thing and where he might factor in to past events...
1. My main thought immediately after last night is that it's going to play out that he was the "last hero" bringing the story full circle when Old Nan was telling him his "favorite stories" in Book 1/Season 1.
2. I'm not sure I buy that he'll end up being "Bran the Builder" but maybe we get to meet him through the current Bran.
3. I think it's almost a sure thing that it's going to play out that Bran was a source of Aerys' problems and/or set a lot of other balls rolling to get to the current status quo.

And finally... I'd been split on the white walkers prior to last night's origin reveal, and I think with last night's confirmation of their initial creation it's going to play out that basically the CotF created the walkers to destroy humanity, time traveling Bran convinces the CotF that a world with humans is better than one with walkers and that they're going to lose control of them and it'll be the end of life as we know it, the CotF help the men beat them back, and the walkers raise The Wall to save themselves from extinction. I think the scene where the Night's King displays some control over the earth/elements was put in to foreshadow this.

...then you fast forward to when the Night's King was leader of the Night's Watch (and a Stark)... he finds a rare female WW north of the wall, gets himself turned into his current form by communing with her, and ends up as the alpha dog of the current WWs and has been building his strength for hundreds of years.

I disagree about this. First what would Bran be planning on accomplishing by making Aery's want to burn down Kings Landing. I can't really think of anything Bran would be trying to effect by influencing Aerys.

Also this would destroy what we know about the Targ's. Their insanity is partly due to all of the inbreeding that occurred in their family. Same reason Joffery is a dick head. It's 50/50 in asoiaf on whether or not incest causes insanity. The sparks of craziness have already been established in Dany. Making it all a function of Bran warging destroys all of that set up.

 

[wizards8507]

Any theories on what the Red Priestess was hinting at when she talked about Vary's mutilation?

"Do you remember what you heard that night, when the sorcerer tossed your parts in the fire? You heard a voice call out from the flames, do you remember? Should I tell you what the voice said? Should I tell you the name of the one who spoke?"

 

[IrishLax]

I disagree about this. First what would Bran be planning on accomplishing by making Aery's want to burn down Kings Landing. I can't really think of anything Bran would be trying to effect by influencing Aerys.

Also this would destroy what we know about the Targ's. Their insanity is partly due to all of the inbreeding that occurred in their family. Same reason Joffery is a dick head. It's 50/50 in asoiaf on whether or not incest causes insanity. The sparks of craziness have already been established in Dany. Making it all a function of Bran warging destroys all of that set up.

IMO, it'd be more like what happened to Hodor when Bran basically "broke" his mind by screwing around with warging and time travel. I think Bran might try to get him to stop doing something... and inadvertently make him him go crazy. But maybe not.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Great tits on tonight's episode.

Run a Bing search for "Eline Powell" (though not if you're at work).

Edit: First go to Settings > SafeSearch > Off.

Any theories on what the Red Priestess was hinting at when she talked about Vary's mutilation?

"Do you remember what you heard that night, when the sorcerer tossed your parts in the fire? You heard a voice call out from the flames, do you remember? Should I tell you what the voice said? Should I tell you the name of the one who spoke?"

From the synopsis of Chapter 44, ACoK:

The sorcerer castrated Varys, and burned the parts, creating a blue flame from which a voice spoke in a language he didn’t comprehend.

The most likely implication is that it was R'hllor's voice Varys heard in the blue flame, and that Kinvara knows what was said to him.

 

[GATTACA!]

Run a Bing search for "Eline Powell" (though not if you're at work).



From the synopsis of Chapter 44, ACoK:



The most likely implication is that it was R'hllor's voice Varys heard in the blue flame, and that Kinvara knows what was said to him.

Whiskey gets it lol

Only time bing is the preferred engine

 

[greyhammer90]

I can't remember so forgive me: Has there been any direct proof of the actual existence of any Gods besides the Lord of Light in the books/show? (To the extent supernatural events can show proof of divine influence in a world where magic is performed by mortals.)

In my mind the Rightous Red has the most direct proof that their deity is a real interested party thus far. But I'm probably forgetting something obvious from the books.

 

[IrishLion]

I can't remember so forgive me: Has there been any direct proof of the actual existence of any Gods besides the Lord of Light in the books/show? (To the extent supernatural events can show proof of divine influence in a world where magic is performed by mortals.)

In my mind the Rightous Red has the most direct proof that their deity is a real interested party thus far. But I'm probably forgetting something obvious from the books.

"The Old Gods" have to be real, since the Children of the Forest and the ability to warg via Heart Tree is real, right?

 

[ACamp1900]

i still think there is a chance the nights king may turn out NOT to be "the bad guy" when this thing is all over.

and Bran has me worried...

IMO, it'd be more like what happened to Hodor when Bran basically "broke" his mind by screwing around with warging and time travel. I think Bran might try to get him to stop doing something... and inadvertently make him him go crazy. But maybe not.

Just been reading and haven't watched this season so keep that in mind, but from what you have all shared:

Maybe in one of the final episodes Bran's situation is so far gone and hopeless he realizes the only option is to stop everything at what is views to be the source and goes back to change the past even that far back... only to set the situation he finds himself in, in motion...