Fall Camp 2019

[dublinirish]

I don’t understand continued weakness regarding offense line...

Robert H was our top graded lineman last year and named captain

Liam is on all kinds of list as a top left tackle for next draft.

Let’s just see how the season plays out. I think the line will be fine

per II they struggled to move the ball versus the 2nd and 3rd(!) team defenses in last open practice

 

[stpeteirish]

Today's practice notes from Prister and O'Malley:

Houston Griffith #1 boundary CB (cross train?)
2 back, no TE sets with Tony Jones and Jafar
Moala out, moved Liufau and Ekwonu to rover (temporary?)
Keys in slot, Finke outside

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

There's also been reports were defense (even dline) has looked weak... Tim and Tim mentioned "they heard Elston went off" on the dline and then the next practice the demolished the oline.

It sounds like it's been very back and forth, which is good.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Today's practice notes from Prister and O'Malley:

Houston Griffith #1 boundary CB (cross train?)
2 back, no TE sets with Tony Jones and Jafar
Moala out, moved Liufau and Ekwonu to rover (temporary?)
Keys in slot, Finke outside

Never, ever thought I'd hear about formations with these two on the field at the same time.

I guess they want Finke to be Young.

 

[Domina Nostra]

per II they struggled to move the ball versus the 2nd and 3rd(!) team defenses in last open practice

What were they running? What was the sample size? And the 2nd team is Ode, Hinish, Lacey, and Hayes. That is not a weak group.

Not much different from our top OL in 2018:

.9614 4* Eichenberg
.9605 4* Hainsey
.9484 4* Alex Bars
.9301 4* Aaron Banks
.9123 4* Mustipher
.8738 3* Ruhland

5* Kraemer couldn't beat Ruhland for the RG position. And the production from that star-studded group ranked 106th in the nation last year (Georgia was 7th, Clemson 17th, etc.)

I can buy that Patterson is an upgrade at Center and that Kraemer is finally ready to produce as expected, which should give us a solid interior running game. But continued weakness at Tackle is going to be difficult to scheme around, and will almost assuredly ruin us against any elite defense like Georgia's.

OL remains my top concern. Hoping Quinn can prove me wrong.

IMHO, the #106 stat proves way too much. Last year we were 12-0, and the teams with "Top 25" lines scored 27, 14, and 3 on us. That's in line with what everyone else scored on us.

How could there possibly be 105 better lines than ND, including Akron, Ball State, Buffalo, Central Michigan, Charlotte, Cinn., Colorado State, East Michigan, Carolina, Liberty, Wyoming, etc.? Would the d-lines rate it that way? (Ohio #6, OSU #65)

The reason for the ranking is the formula: "For 2018, we are experimenting with a new definition for college line yardage based on film study and generalization. Instead of the ALY figure FO used for the NFL, this one is tighter: the line gets credit for rushing yardage between 0-3 yards (instead of 0-4) and 50% credit for yards 4-8 (instead of 5-10). Anything over 8 yards is quantified as a highlight opportunity, and credit goes to the runner. As with the pro definition, lost yardage still counts for 125%. (Garbage time is filtered out for all line yardage averages.)"

IMO, Long's running game seems specifically constructed to generate big chunk running plays, and not to grind it out. Plus, teams that play lots of defenseless teams in defenseless leagues skew the stats drastically.

Anyway, if you can go 12-0 with the 105 ranked offensive line, and finish 4th in the MAC West with the #5 line, I am not so worried about o-line anymore.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

[/B]

Never, ever thought I'd hear about formations with these two on the field at the same time.

I guess they want Finke to be Young.

I actually heard it opposite. I thought they said Keys was outside and Finke was in the slot. Maybe I misheard.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

IMO, Long's running game seems specifically constructed to generate big chunk running plays, and not to grind it out.

I'm open to being convinced on this, but ALY isn't the only thing they're measuring. Our Opportunity Rate, 42.3%, was only good for 112th, and our Stuff Rate, 24.1%, ranked 121st(!).

Our Sack Rate (5.2%) ranked a decent 38th, and we were especially good about not giving up sacks on passing downs (4.6% - 16th). But our OL clearly took a big step back when Hiestand left. Compare our 2018 stats against those from the 5 previous years.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

I'm open to being convinced on this, but ALY isn't the only thing they're measuring. Our Opportunity Rate, 42.3%, was only good for 112th, and our Stuff Rate, 24.1%, ranked 121st(!).

Our Sack Rate (5.2%) ranked a decent 38th, and we were especially good about not giving up sacks on passing downs (4.6% - 16th). But our OL clearly took a big step back when Hiestand left, along with a once in a decade OG and a top 10 OT. Compare our 2018 stats against those from the 5 previous years.

We were very young last year. Our play was worse than I expected but I still expected a step back after losing so much talent.

This is the year I will put the play on the OL coach. He gets a year to let the guys acclimate and to account for the youth. Now they are returning a lot of experienced talent so he should put out at least a top 50 unit in almost every metric.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I'm open to being convinced on this, but ALY isn't the only thing they're measuring. Our Opportunity Rate, 42.3%, was only good for 112th, and our Stuff Rate, 24.1%, ranked 121st(!).

Our Sack Rate (5.2%) ranked a decent 38th, and we were especially good about not giving up sacks on passing downs (4.6% - 16th). But our OL clearly took a big step back when Hiestand left. Compare our 2018 stats against those from the 5 previous years.

I just have a hard time thinking it was really Heistand. (Notably, the current line was recruited by HH.) He was great, but I don't remember the unadulterated praise coming until 2015, which was called into question in 2016, and amped up in 2017. I think we don't have a clear Zach Martin, Ronnie Stanley, or Q Nelson on the team, despite HH's recruiting.

And again, ALY said it was experimenting with "a new definition for college line yardage based on film study and generalization" which is "tighter." How much difference did that make? Maybe a whole lot? I don't know. We were #5 in 2017. That rarified air is reserved for Toledo in 2018...

Looking back:

2018:
- The first three games were kind of a wash.
- No clear deep threats,
- Unproven skill talent,
- A QB who is not strong on the deep ball

What were we trying to accomplish with Ian Book? What was the line's identity? Defenses tried to take away the run and make us beat them deep, which we generally could not. Still we managed to average about 35 points per game against decent competition. I think it is hard for an o-line to look good in that scenario.

2017:
- Whatever the stats said, this team stuck out like a sore thumb for most of the year based on lots of LONG, LONG, LONG runs.
- We were not trying to grind it out, although Josh Adams was very good at that, even when the line got him nothing. We often relied on JA for short yardage even where the talented line got him nothing.
- The line had two Top 10 players, including a rookie All-Pro who is one of the best players in the last 25 years. These were not HH creations. QN is Bane. MM was from a football family and is a prototype OT.
- And even then we got totally stuffed against UGA and Miami with our #5 ranking.

2016
A putrid year that had Q Nelson, Mike McGlinchy, and Josh Adams, and DeShone Kizer on it, and we were 18.

2015:
Ronnie Stanley
Q Nelson
Nick Martin
Mike McGlnichey
Support:
DeShone Kizer
CJ Procise
Josh Adams
Will Fuller

In 2015, we had an elite deep threat, a QB that could deliver the ball to him OR run for short yardage, and two killer RBs in CJ Procise and Josh Adams.

Again, under ALY, you can go 12-0 with the 105 ranked offensive line, and finish 4th in the MAC West with the #5 line. That's just not helpful unless-line is drastically overrated as an indicator of success.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Not much different from our top OL in 2018:

.9614 4* Eichenberg
.9605 4* Hainsey
.9484 4* Alex Bars
.9301 4* Aaron Banks
.9123 4* Mustipher
.8738 3* Ruhland

5* Kraemer couldn't beat Ruhland for the RG position. And the production from that star-studded group ranked 106th in the nation last year (Georgia was 7th, Clemson 17th, etc.)

I can buy that Patterson is an upgrade at Center and that Kraemer is finally ready to produce as expected, which should give us a solid interior running game. But continued weakness at Tackle is going to be difficult to scheme around, and will almost assuredly ruin us against any elite defense like Georgia's.

OL remains my top concern. Hoping Quinn can prove me wrong.

Continued weakness at tackle? Tackle was arguably our strongest position on the line, minus LG last year. You can't really take how they look in camp to heart, because Okwara and Kareem are going to make A LOT of tackles look worse this year. That's what great edge players do. Also keep in mind that Eichenberg was a 1st year starter last year and Hainsey played with a significant lower body injury for pretty much the entire year.

 

[ResLife Hero]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/gauQpPWaoZQ" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[fightingirish26]

Anyone know how serious Vaughn's quad injury is?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I just have a hard time thinking it was really Heistand.

I don't think this is even arguable. ND struggled to recruit and develop OL from 1996 (when Davie fired Joe Moore) until Hiestand's arrival. Suddenly we're recruiting the position as well as any team in the country, it looks like one of the team's strengths on the field, and advanced stats like ALY bear that out as well. Then Heistand leaves, and our ALY drops off a cliff. Maybe a coincidence, but I'll remain skeptical until Quinn shows he can develop our top-shelf talent and our OL returns to being one of our perennial strengths.

(Notably, the current line was recruited by HH.)

No one doubts that we have the talent. It's a question of development.

He was great, but I don't remember the unadulterated praise coming until 2015, which was called into question in 2016, and amped up in 2017. I think we don't have a clear Zach Martin, Ronnie Stanley, or Q Nelson on the team, despite HH's recruiting.

NDinLA created the "Offensive Line Thread" in August of 2012 specifically to praise Hiestand, which you'll find repeated consistently throughout.

Again, under ALY, you can go 12-0 with the 105 ranked offensive line, and finish 4th in the MAC West with the #5 line. That's just not helpful unless-line is drastically overrated as an indicator of success.

I'm not following. One can go 12-0 with a weak OL, just as one can go 0-12 with a good OL. Football is a complex game with lots of individual units interacting in different ways. W/L records and "eyeball" tests are notoriously unreliable; advanced stats like ALY help us pick apart the data to learn where a team's real strengths and weaknesses lie.

ALY indicates that our OL badly underperformed in 2018 relative to the talent we fielded. Hand-waving about the loss of McG and Quinn, Bars' injury, general lack of experience, etc. doesn't change that fact. We saw very little drop-off in ALY when Hiestand lost Martin and Watt because Hiestand could both recruit and develop. We know Quinn can do the former (at least while our OL remains illuminated by St. Harry's halo), but I'm not sure he can do the latter.

I hope Quinn can prove me wrong this year, but it's still my #1 worry heading into this season.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

I actually heard it opposite. I thought they said Keys was outside and Finke was in the slot. Maybe I misheard.

Agreed, any clarification on this?

I heard that initially after his injury, they moved Finke outside and Keys inside to the slot, which surprised me.

Finke is made for the slot. Was thinking that given the urgency of the situation (mid practice) they likely moved Finke outside because he was more knowledgeable of the whole offense, but assumed Keys would be bumped outside to allow Finke to move back to his natural slot.

Could just be me overthinking, but Finke is made for the slot and can do a lot of damage there. Take 5 yard outs and cross routes and wreak havoc. Hope to see him stay there.

 

[stlnd01]

McKinley backs up Claypool at X. He's not playing Y where Young was lining up

Sure, but with Austin out you’d think he’d at least be getting second-team reps at X. Instead it’s Wilkins?

 

[Irish#1]

We were very young last year. Our play was worse than I expected but I still expected a step back after losing so much talent.

This is the year I will put the play on the OL coach. He gets a year to let the guys acclimate and to account for the youth. Now they are returning a lot of experienced talent so he should put out at least a top 50 unit in almost every metric.

Agree.....Anything will seem like a huge drop off after losing Q and Big Mike. They were disappointing at times, but given so many new bodies and the injury at LG hurt more than most realize. You can't judge them by one clip from camp and we have the best set of DE's in the country. Our tackles aren't going to see that week in and week out. I think we'll see a marked improvement this year. If we don't then it's time to look at Quinn.

 

[zelezo vlk]

No one doubts that we have the talent. It's a question of development.







I'm not following. One can go 12-0 with a weak OL, just as one can go 0-12 with a good OL. Football is a complex game with lots of individual units interacting in different ways. W/L records and "eyeball" tests are notoriously unreliable; advanced stats like ALY help us pick apart the data to learn where a team's real strengths and weaknesses lie.

ALY indicates that our OL badly underperformed in 2018 relative to the talent we fielded. Hand-waving about the loss of McG and Quinn, Bars' injury, general lack of experience, etc. doesn't change that fact. We saw very little drop-off in ALY when Hiestand lost Martin and Watt because Hiestand could both recruit and develop. We know Quinn can do the former (at least while our OL remains illuminated by St. Harry's halo), but I'm not sure he can do the latter.

I hope Quinn can prove me wrong this year, but it's still my #1 worry heading into this season.

Whiskey, I was on Football Outsider's website and couldn't find any data for 2013. Do you have that somewhere or is it a different source than FO?

2014's line was rated much better than I recall it being, around 30. I would've guessed closer to middle of the pack, but it was a transitional year/year where lots of guys got hurt.

I posit that a large part of last year's struggles were due to an inexperienced line, mostly due to some pretty poor recruiting (numbers wise) in 2015 and 2016. Last year that class were seniors and juniors, and ND had Ruhland, Kraemer, and Eich in the 2 deep from those classes. That's just not good enough when you only have 2 5th years, considering Ruhland was depth. Luckily Hiestand ended with the high note of 2017, but he needs to take some of the blame for last year too. Dude is one of the best developers in the business but did not like recruiting at all and it led to a shortage in depth.

 

[IrishFanForever23]

Agree.....Anything will seem like a huge drop off after losing Q and Big Mike. They were disappointing at times, but given so many new bodies and the injury at LG hurt more than most realize. You can't judge them by one clip from camp and we have the best set of DE's in the country. Our tackles aren't going to see that week in and week out. I think we'll see a marked improvement this year. If we don't then it's time to look at Quinn.

I sure hope so. Sampson and O'Malley did not seem impressed with the OL play on Saturday when they viewed practice. In fact, they're thinking it's going to be hard for ND to avg. 34+ pts. a game, which they both thought they would do earlier during camp.

Edit: Missed this was discussed above

 

[General Colon Bowel]

Not much different from our top OL in 2018:

.9614 4* Eichenberg
.9605 4* Hainsey
.9484 4* Alex Bars
.9301 4* Aaron Banks
.9123 4* Mustipher
.8738 3* Ruhland

5* Kraemer couldn't beat Ruhland for the RG position. And the production from that star-studded group ranked 106th in the nation last year (Georgia was 7th, Clemson 17th, etc.)

I can buy that Patterson is an upgrade at Center and that Kraemer is finally ready to produce as expected, which should give us a solid interior running game. But continued weakness at Tackle is going to be difficult to scheme around, and will almost assuredly ruin us against any elite defense like Georgia's.

OL remains my top concern. Hoping Quinn can prove me wrong.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ncaaol

I'm assuming you're getting the 106 ranking from Football Outsiders, which if so was just the 2018 line's Line Yards per carry. So only a rushing stat, and not adjusted for opponent strength.

The 2018 line graded out as 38th in sack rate and 16th in pass down sack rate, so an above average to good pass protection unit.

Additionally they were 23rd in Power Success Rate, which grades how successful an offense was in getting a first down and touchdown in 3rd or 4th and 2 or less situations - essentially situations where everyone in the stadium knows you're going to run and you just have to line up and beat the guy across from you.

All that to say, it's a little misleading to say ND had the 106th ranked offensive line last year. They were more like a strong pass protection line that struggled with run blocking for the most part, but came through when it mattered.

 

[stpeteirish]

I actually heard it opposite. I thought they said Keys was outside and Finke was in the slot. Maybe I misheard.

No, you're right it was Keys outside. I guess I heard what I thought would make sense.

I don't think either Finke or Keys is big enough to block out there but we'll see.

McKinley might have a minor injury that is keeping him from competing for Young's s spot.They said he was on the bike in today's practice

 

[Old Man Mike]

Can't help myself....

A. This OLine is going to BEAT UP people. We have "discovered" Banks, and Mustipher (God Bless his effort) was not powerful enough last season to hold up the center of the field vs bull rushing (Patterson MIGHT be stronger, but Banks is sure as he!l stronger to help out, plus Tommy is finally fully settled into his spot.) We probably have the physically strongest pair of behemoths operating as a guard tandem in NCAA football.

B. NO ONE is going to block Okwara and Kareem and their band of marauders this year. They ARE the best pair in the country and some people are beginning to agree "out there." Our D is a BIG problem for any OLine.

C. I watched every game we played last year on replay with stop action to see where the breakdowns occurred. The OLine was WAY better than everyone was giving credit for. Why? Breakdowns occurred due to two things blocking wise: Edge rushers occasionally beat Eichenberg and Hainsey (Eichenberg usually of the two) but they weren't getting even close to competent help from the RBs or the TEs. If a breakdown occurred, it was usually not a lineman doing it.

Secondly, Mustipher, especially as the season went on, could not hold up the middle of the cup. Tommy would help when he could, but it was often up to the RB (who almost never made decisive action), or the QB intuiting just the right escapism. Wimbush, of course, couldn't do the latter at all, and this even bothered Book to a lesser degree. That's the blocking breakdown issue. But there was one further non-blocking issue at least as great a problem.

So, thirdly: Our backs would NOT HIT THE HOLE. (except Jafar before injury). We had to have near Q-parting of the waves to get on-time hitting the gap. (on any regular basis.) Having no Q, these tractor-trailer gaps were a lot less frequent than the previous year. I watched the Blue Gold game this year and saw a LOT more decisive gap hitting than last year. Running back decisiveness can make your OLine look good or punk. (This, by the way, is why I believe that if Jafar doesn't stay healthy, and Jones doesn't up his game hitting the hole, we might see the chunky freshman blasting holes this year --- he seemed a natural in the Spring game.)

D. I've NEVER seen a veteran Oline moving into its 4th year on the job NOT make a huge forward step. Their MAN-Muscle growth, their holistic smarts, their coolness-with-violence in any circumstance, just make them real trouble for opponents. I don't know how many remember how actually BAD McGlinchey looked until --- miracle --- suddenly he was truly Big Mike. Kelly picked both Hainsey and Eichenberg to be pseudo-captains of the off-season SWAT team. HE thinks that they are full out studs. Kraemer has been praised for increased svelteness and better pulling speed (he's never lacked power.) Banks is a barely manageable rolling mountain.

Sorry for my constant repeats on this topic....

 

[ResLife Hero]

Finally found BGI's video for today
<iframe title="vimeo-player" src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/354712747" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[BobbyMac]

I just think it is truly bizarre that the OL is not better given both the experience returning and recruiting rankings. Seems like it has been both ineffective coaching and poor evaluation during recruiting.

We saw very little drop-off in ALY when Hiestand lost Martin and Watt because Hiestand could both recruit and develop.

Did any HH recruit start in 2014 until McG did in the Bowl game vs LSU? I don't believe so. Stanley, Martin, Elmer all Warriner recruits. Lombard a Weis era holdover. I believe the the other starts were handled by Hegarty & Hanratty or maybe Harrell? Too many H's to keep straight. So HH did a great job at getting the Verducci/Latina/Warriner guys coached up but when it comes to guys he offered/signed/coached it's McG & Q at the elite level with Bars & Mustipher a level or two down.

We know Quinn can do the former (at least while our OL remains illuminated by St. Harry's halo), but I'm not sure he can do the latter.

I think Quinn has to prove he can do it at ND after a long lay off from being an everyday OL but it's not like players haven't blossomed under his leadership before. He's turned G5 TE & FB's into Pro Bowl Offensive Linemen. And as a Bears fan, I'll give him a plug for being the HC that oversaw Khalil Mack going from a 2* to the scariest guy in the NFL.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Can't help myself....

A. This OLine is going to BEAT UP people. We have "discovered" Banks, and Mustipher (God Bless his effort) was not powerful enough last season to hold up the center of the field vs bull rushing (Patterson MIGHT be stronger, but Banks is sure as he!l stronger to help out, plus Tommy is finally fully settled into his spot.) We probably have the physically strongest pair of behemoths operating as a guard tandem in NCAA football.

B. NO ONE is going to block Okwara and Kareem and their band of marauders this year. They ARE the best pair in the country and some people are beginning to agree "out there." Our D is a BIG problem for any OLine.

C. I watched every game we played last year on replay with stop action to see where the breakdowns occurred. The OLine was WAY better than everyone was giving credit for. Why? Breakdowns occurred due to two things blocking wise: Edge rushers occasionally beat Eichenberg and Hainsey (Eichenberg usually of the two) but they weren't getting even close to competent help from the RBs or the TEs. If a breakdown occurred, it was usually not a lineman doing it.

Secondly, Mustipher, especially as the season went on, could not hold up the middle of the cup. Tommy would help when he could, but it was often up to the RB (who almost never made decisive action), or the QB intuiting just the right escapism. Wimbush, of course, couldn't do the latter at all, and this even bothered Book to a lesser degree. That's the blocking breakdown issue. But there was one further non-blocking issue at least as great a problem.

So, thirdly: Our backs would NOT HIT THE HOLE. (except Jafar before injury). We had to have near Q-parting of the waves to get on-time hitting the gap. (on any regular basis.) Having no Q, these tractor-trailer gaps were a lot less frequent than the previous year. I watched the Blue Gold game this year and saw a LOT more decisive gap hitting than last year. Running back decisiveness can make your OLine look good or punk. (This, by the way, is why I believe that if Jafar doesn't stay healthy, and Jones doesn't up his game hitting the hole, we might see the chunky freshman blasting holes this year --- he seemed a natural in the Spring game.)

D. I've NEVER seen a veteran Oline moving into its 4th year on the job NOT make a huge forward step. Their MAN-Muscle growth, their holistic smarts, their coolness-with-violence in any circumstance, just make them real trouble for opponents. I don't know how many remember how actually BAD McGlinchey looked until --- miracle --- suddenly he was truly Big Mike. Kelly picked both Hainsey and Eichenberg to be pseudo-captains of the off-season SWAT team. HE thinks that they are full out studs. Kraemer has been praised for increased svelteness and better pulling speed (he's never lacked power.) Banks is a barely manageable rolling mountain.

Sorry for my constant repeats on this topic....

Hear hear.

I just don't think we'll get a good read of how good Eichenberg and Hainsey are by going up against Kareem and Okwara. They're just too good of ends to get a good read. I'd say best end tandem in the country right now. In 2015, we had a great tandem of tackles in Stanley and McGlinchey, and even they struggled with the top-tier end groups we went up against (see Clemson w/Lawson and Dodd or Ohio St w/ Bosa and Hubbard). It's also important to mention that from what ISD is reporting, they're far more favorable of the tackles, stating it's been pretty back and forth for most of the camp recently between the DL and OL.

The health and instincts of the RB's are concerns for me. You mention Jafar staying healthy is a concern, but Jones has to stay healthy too. He's struggled with nagging lower body injuries for the last 2 years which has clearly impacted his ability to make plays in space.

I respect Mustipher, but you're 100% correct on him. Sorely lacked any kind of size, power or athleticism. He was a big weakness against Clemson, because Wilkins and Huggins basically tee'd up against him all game and forced Book to bail out quite a bit.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Today's practice notes from Prister and O'Malley:

Houston Griffith #1 boundary CB (cross train?)
2 back, no TE sets with Tony Jones and Jafar
Moala out, moved Liufau and Ekwonu to rover (temporary?)
Keys in slot, Finke outside

Kelly calling plays again, confirmed...

 

[Domina Nostra]

I don't think this is even arguable. ND struggled to recruit and develop OL from 1996 (when Davie fired Joe Moore) until Hiestand's arrival. Suddenly we're recruiting the position as well as any team in the country, it looks like one of the team's strengths on the field, and advanced stats like ALY bear that out as well. Then Heistand leaves, and our ALY drops off a cliff. Maybe a coincidence, but I'll remain skeptical until Quinn shows he can develop our top-shelf talent and our OL returns to being one of our perennial strengths.

LOL! It's inarguable because its become a Notre Dame fan truism. But any statistic that shows Toledo's OL as #5 and ND's as #105 in a year ND made the playoffs is a skewed. AND IT IS ADMITTEDLY A DIFFERENT METRIC IN 2018!!!!

In 2012, without HH, we got to the ND at 189 ypg. Not exactly a disaster.
Martin, Watt, Cave, Golic, Lombard. Ed W. had trouble recruiting because ND was coming off the Weis years. He was getting ship turned around, and did a good job with what he had. He did pretty good recruiting to OSU.

HH was a great coach, and did a great job teaching excellent form. While he was here we had mixed results in the run game, for various reasons, many outside of his control. But that is kind of the point. Too much blame, too much praise.

It seemed to me, until the last few years, HH's reputation was a "pro" coach that could really get the most out of the ELITE talent, but didn't pay a ton of attention to the other guys. Over his tenure, he kept Martin and Watt on track, and fine-tuned them for the NFL. Developed Stanley, N. Martin, and McGlinchy very, very nicely, and got front row seats to the Q Nelson experience, which was likely inevitable. No one else is very notable, IMO.

If you go back and look his recruiting was a mixed bag. Great some years, bad other years, and fine some other years. Some of his fine years too, were saved by improbable late commitments like Banks.

In term of rushing ypg, the statistic I prefer, the HH years started slow, looked promising in 2015, seemed to regress in 2016, then amazing 2017 happened and cemented the HH legend:

2013: 151 (#80) Martin, Watt, Hegarty, Elmer, Stanley (better line, worse results)--
Why? overall team talent issues.
2014: 159 (68) Stanley, Hegarty, Martin, Lombard, Elmer (worse line, same results)
2015: 207 (28) Stanley, Nelson, Martin, Elmer, McGlinchy (much better talent, but huge talent boom on offense with Kizer, Fuller, and Procise)
2016: 163 (80) (McGlinchy, Nelson, Mustipher, Kraemer, Bars) offensive skill position issues hurt, but defensive nonsense kills team.
2017: 269 (7) (McGlinchy, Nelson, Mustipher, Kraemer, Bars) - veteran line, great RBs, and a defense

2018: 182 (51) This would have been 3rd best in the HH era. I chalk it up to Chip Long's approach. The line had struggles, but every line does (2017 - UGA and Miami).

So I think he is a great coach, but I think he is getting too much credit for havin McGlinchy and Nelson coming back for that extra year.

 

[ulukinatme]

Can't help myself....

A. This OLine is going to BEAT UP people. We have "discovered" Banks, and Mustipher (God Bless his effort) was not powerful enough last season to hold up the center of the field vs bull rushing (Patterson MIGHT be stronger, but Banks is sure as he!l stronger to help out, plus Tommy is finally fully settled into his spot.) We probably have the physically strongest pair of behemoths operating as a guard tandem in NCAA football.

B. NO ONE is going to block Okwara and Kareem and their band of marauders this year. They ARE the best pair in the country and some people are beginning to agree "out there." Our D is a BIG problem for any OLine.

C. I watched every game we played last year on replay with stop action to see where the breakdowns occurred. The OLine was WAY better than everyone was giving credit for. Why? Breakdowns occurred due to two things blocking wise: Edge rushers occasionally beat Eichenberg and Hainsey (Eichenberg usually of the two) but they weren't getting even close to competent help from the RBs or the TEs. If a breakdown occurred, it was usually not a lineman doing it.

Secondly, Mustipher, especially as the season went on, could not hold up the middle of the cup. Tommy would help when he could, but it was often up to the RB (who almost never made decisive action), or the QB intuiting just the right escapism. Wimbush, of course, couldn't do the latter at all, and this even bothered Book to a lesser degree. That's the blocking breakdown issue. But there was one further non-blocking issue at least as great a problem.

So, thirdly: Our backs would NOT HIT THE HOLE. (except Jafar before injury). We had to have near Q-parting of the waves to get on-time hitting the gap. (on any regular basis.) Having no Q, these tractor-trailer gaps were a lot less frequent than the previous year. I watched the Blue Gold game this year and saw a LOT more decisive gap hitting than last year. Running back decisiveness can make your OLine look good or punk. (This, by the way, is why I believe that if Jafar doesn't stay healthy, and Jones doesn't up his game hitting the hole, we might see the chunky freshman blasting holes this year --- he seemed a natural in the Spring game.)

D. I've NEVER seen a veteran Oline moving into its 4th year on the job NOT make a huge forward step. Their MAN-Muscle growth, their holistic smarts, their coolness-with-violence in any circumstance, just make them real trouble for opponents. I don't know how many remember how actually BAD McGlinchey looked until --- miracle --- suddenly he was truly Big Mike. Kelly picked both Hainsey and Eichenberg to be pseudo-captains of the off-season SWAT team. HE thinks that they are full out studs. Kraemer has been praised for increased svelteness and better pulling speed (he's never lacked power.) Banks is a barely manageable rolling mountain.

Sorry for my constant repeats on this topic....

Other than a few question marks at some positions, I agree with a lot of this and I think the team could be poised to be better than last year given what we're returning. That said, what happens if we somehow go 12-0 again or we happen to go 11-1 in a close one with Georgia? If we take care of business I think Georgia is the only real stumbling block for 2019. At 11-1 I don't think we get in again this season unless the 4th Conference Champion is a 2+ loss team. There will be pressure to keep us out after the way Clemson dominated last season (To be fair, they kicked the crap out of Alabama too though). We'd certainly still get in at 12-0, baring an impossible collection of four 13-0 Conference Champions, but I see there being a lot of naysayers trying to keep us out still...hell, there were plenty last season as it was. Makes me wonder if we wouldn't have been better off missing the playoffs last season and getting in this season under the above scenario.

 

[BobbyMac]

Other than a few question marks at some positions, I agree with a lot of this and I think the team could be poised to be better than last year given what we're returning. That said, what happens if we somehow go 12-0 again or we happen to go 11-1 in a close one with Georgia? If we take care of business I think Georgia is the only real stumbling block for 2019. At 11-1 I don't think we get in again this season unless the 4th Conference Champion is a 2+ loss team. There will be pressure to keep us out after the way Clemson dominated last season (To be fair, they kicked the crap out of Alabama too though). We'd certainly still get in at 12-0, baring an impossible collection of four 13-0 Conference Champions, but I see there being a lot of naysayers trying to keep us out still...hell, there were plenty last season as it was. Makes me wonder if we wouldn't have been better off missing the playoffs last season and getting in this season under the above scenario.

A loss to UGA / 11-1 is a playoff lock if:

SC beats Stanford in the PAC CG
Michigan beats ____ in the B1G CG
UVa beats Clemson in the ACC CG
UGA beats Bama inthe SEC CG
OU/UT wins the Big12 CG with 2 losses

 

[ulukinatme]

A loss to UGA / 11-1 is a playoff lock if:

SC beats Stanford in the PAC CG
Michigan beats ____ in the B1G CG
UVa beats Clemson in the ACC CG
UGA beats Bama inthe SEC CG
OU/UT wins the Big12 CG with 2 losses

I don't see those middle three happening, but we really just need 2 of the 5 to occur to solidify a spot at 11-1. If I had to guess this year it'll be Clemson, Alabama, OU, and hopefully us at the end. If we slip up tOSU will probably be the 4th, they've got too much talent even with Meyer gone.

 

[PANDFAN]

Is there even a dog left in that dog house or has Javon McKinley taken up sole permanent residence?
Really would’ve thought he’d be getting a shot with Austin sidelined, AND now Young.

Sure, but with Austin out you’d think he’d at least be getting second-team reps at X. Instead it’s Wilkins?

its been noted by every reporter that besides the 1 practice, javon has been sliding fast down the depth chart