Education

[Polish Leppy 22]

Needs its own thread.

We spend more money in this country per pupil on education in the world, yet we rank 17th in the world in Reading and we're in the 30's in both Math and Science (K-12).

Most teachers don't get rich but their pensions and benefits are bankrupting school districts in the long term.

The talented/ dedicated teachers aren't rewarded enough and the poor/ lazy teachers who do the bare minimum can't get fired unless they sleep with a student.

There is no Constitutional right for the federal government to be involved in education. Period.

It's not all on the teachers/ admin. Part of this is the breakdown of the American family, too.

How long can we remain a superpower and the world's strongest economy?

 

[woolybug25]

Good thread. I come from a family of educators and this is a constant topic at our table. Hopefully we can keep the discussion going without political diatribe (maybe pat will stay away, ha).

My personal opinion is that we currently have a platform of teaching to create test scores instead of teaching children "How To Learn". Because that's the difference in other cultures, they teach their children the process of learning and then give them creative ways for them to engage in information, thus using their contstantly aqcuiring skill of learning to do just that... learn.

My kids will go to a Montissori school for that reason.

<object width="560" height="315"><param name="movie" value="//www.youtube.com/v/cbg2Ubn0F8k?version=3&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="//www.youtube.com/v/cbg2Ubn0F8k?version=3&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

 

[sparkyND]

I think this is an interesting and pertinent question/issue that our country faces both currently and in the future. I think you can slice the puzzle in different ways but here is my take on it.

1. Money spent per pupil does not makes sense for a number of reasons. But most importantly, this could be an outcome due to the private, elite schools in rich neighborhoods getting much of the financial resources while inner city schools, while the majority, are underfunded. Thus, it could be a result of skewed data.

2. I recently watched a documentary, Waiting for "Superman", and wanted to ask members of the IE board what they thought of teacher's unions and tenure system for teachers. Protecting teachers rights and guaranteeing their well-being, both psychologically and financially, is not what concerns me. It is rewarding, through the system, un- or under-qualified teachers that is at the heart of the matter. I have no answer for this (only a biased opinion) but would like to hear from others.

3. The main reason why the US has been able to stay competitive if not lead outright vis-a-vis other nations in the realm of education/research is through immigration. Many science-related fields or economics/business programs train a lot of foreigners who are actually good in science and math. Then they get the top jobs at both corporations and schools. I don't have issues with immigration per se but I keep wondering if this is the way to go; instead of correcting the system that fails to produce the talents and brains that serve as the foundation of our system but rather borrowing/stealing from other nations.

4. Overall thought that has been bothering me is the whole notion of education: haven't we placed too much emphasis on education and not specialization? Yes, getting an education is important and yes making sure of your child's future is significant. However, there just too many colleges students these days who are either not ready, uninterested and unqualified. I understand that there are issues with the financial market, era of globalization and specialization, and the enlightenment process. However, narrowly construed, isn't there an issue where the system has placed too much emphasis on education?

I will share more thoughts but these are few things that's been bothering me for a while now.

 

[palinurus]

My mother is a school teacher, having taught many years in Catholic and public schools. She will tell you three things (and tell you and tell you):

1) Money is not the determining factor in a quality education, assuming you are above a certain threshold, and many of those who tell you that it is are interested mostly in their own economic well being and political agendas;

2) Parents, not teachers, are the single biggest factor in how a child gets educated. Teachers need to be of high quality, but a child excelling in school, apart from a parent or parents who hold that child accountable, is relatively rare; and

3) Too many teachers favor school of education theory at the expense of common sense and a love for their students, and too many do not teach simply for the love of the job.

I never met a more natural teacher than my mother, or one who loved teaching, or her students, more.

 

[woolybug25]

My mother is a school teacher, having taught many years in Catholic and public schools. She will tell you three things (and tell you and tell you):

1) Money is not the determining factor in a quality education, assuming you are above a certain threshold, and many of those who tell you that it is are interested mostly in their own economic well being and political agendas;

2) Parents, not teachers, are the single biggest factor in how a child gets educated. Teachers need to be of high quality, but a child excelling in school, apart from a parent or parents who hold that child accountable, is relatively rare; and

3) Too many teachers favor school of education theory at the expense of common sense and a love for their students, and too many do not teach simply for the love of the job.

I never met a more natural teacher than my mother, or one who loved teaching, or her students, more.

One of my sisters purposely taught in the inner city for 3 years because "she wanted to have the biggest impact". What she found out was that she couldn't keep the kids at the school 24/7, and while they would make strides each day, they would get it beat out of them when they left the school. Whether it be drug dealers, absent parents, abusive parents, etc they would take one step forward at school and two steps back once they walked out of the doors.

Which leads me back to your mother's first point, which I also totally agree with. We seem to have a culture that dumps money into schools for iPads, pensions, etc. That money would be far better spent on after school programs, mentor programs and off campus skill building. I can't stress enough how much I believe in the importance of showing kids that they can reach whatever goal they put in front of them. But if we don't show them the steps to do so, they will fall into the same lifestyle as their parents.

 

[Rack Em]

My mother is a school teacher, having taught many years in Catholic and public schools. She will tell you three things (and tell you and tell you):

1) Money is not the determining factor in a quality education, assuming you are above a certain threshold, and many of those who tell you that it is are interested mostly in their own economic well being and political agendas;

2) Parents, not teachers, are the single biggest factor in how a child gets educated. Teachers need to be of high quality, but a child excelling in school, apart from a parent or parents who hold that child accountable, is relatively rare; and

3) Too many teachers favor school of education theory at the expense of common sense and a love for their students, and too many do not teach simply for the love of the job.

I never met a more natural teacher than my mother, or one who loved teaching, or her students, more.

I don't want my comments to evolve into a nature vs. nurture discussion, but when parents don't emphasize education the kids certainly will not. I believe that to be the most destructive aspect about our educational system: lack of parent involvement.

The older I get the more I appreciate my parents not letting me have a gaming system and really controlling how long I spent on the family computer.

 

[Rack Em]

One of my sisters purposely taught in the inner city for 3 years because "she wanted to have the biggest impact". What she found out was that she couldn't keep the kids at the school 24/7, and while they would make strides each day, they would get it beat out of them when they left the school. Whether it be drug dealers, absent parents, abusive parents, etc they would take one step forward at school and two steps back once they walked out of the doors.

Which leads me back to your mother's first point, which I also totally agree with. We seem to have a culture that dumps money into schools for iPads, pensions, etc. That money would be far better spent on after school programs, mentor programs and off campus skill building. I can't stress enough how much I believe in the importance of showing kids that they can reach whatever goal they put in front of them. But if we don't show them the steps to do so, they will fall into the same lifestyle as their parents.

Devil's Advocate:

It's not the role of the State to raise children, just to educate them.

 

[woolybug25]

Devil's Advocate:

It's not the role of the State to raise children, just to educate them.

Devil's Advocate Duex:

That is educating them.

 

[BobD]

I believe lack of parental involvement is the number one reason our educational system as a whole is failing in the United States.

How about computers? Are they hindering more than helping when it comes to education?

 

[woolybug25]

I believe lack of parental involvement is the number one reason our educational system as a whole is failing in the United States.

Here's my thing with parental involvement. Yes, we need to try to help curb this and get Americans to be better parents. Good luck with that though.

Rather, wouldn't it be easier, more cost effective, smarter to give the kids themselves opportunity to do it on their own? The reality is that we cannot possibly change all of the adults in this country and magically make them great parents. It's simply not possible. But what we can do is offer their kids opportunities to better themselves through after school activities, sports, mentor programs, etc.

Like all things in life, I feel like the answers lie somewhere around the topic of "Engagement".

 

[Rack Em]

I believe lack of parental involvement is the number one reason our educational system as a whole is failing in the United States.

How about computers? Are they hindering more than helping when it comes to education?

I'm very anti-computer for kids in the classroom. In college, do whatever you want. But I think it hinders "engagement" (there you go Wooly) for kids all the way through high school.

There is a higher level of memory retention when writing down notes instead of typing them/having them already on your computer, iPad, whatever. It also forces students into a higher level of thinking (and engagement) by actually processing the information in their heads and translating it onto paper. I can't tell you the number of times I've typed notes for 2 hours in law school and have no idea what I just typed.

Typing = cerebral process that requires less thinking
Writing = higher order of information processing that leads to greater retention

The best class I ever had in high school was an AP US History class. The teacher, who had been around for 35+ years and had taught my dad, just straight lectured. He had notes, but just talked. Everyone in the class scribbled notes furiously for 50 minutes - but everyone was more engaged.

 

[GowerND11]

Standardized testing, to me, is one of the biggest failures in education. Teachers are being forced to "Teach to the test." How is that at all productive to allow our students the freedom to learn creatively and openly in the classroom. It prevents differentiated instructions and prevents creative teachers from doing what they do best.
Standardized testing and everything that goes with it has just created rigid standards that are, at times, impossible to attain. I've discussed those in numerous threads. School districts are not created equal, yet they are all expected to reach the same goals. That's completely ludicrous.
When I was in college as a sophomore I had to do a six week observation in an urban setting. I was placed in a middle school in Lancaster, PA. (Yes Amish country, but the city itself is very poor, high crime, and many minorities) While I was there observing a 6th grade Social Studies teacher I was able to talk with him and others. The math teacher explicitly told me that the principal told her not to worry about teaching how to divide fractions, but rather to teach the students how to use the calculators since they were allowed to use them. I was astonished that the students wouldn't learn the basis as to why they were doing what they were doing.

I do feel that the lack of a parent structure in America has hurt our education system. I have students that tell me they come home, in 8th grade mind you, and have to cook and do laundry because their parents are at work until 11 or midnight. NO supervision or guidance on homework. There are plenty of students out there with great parents and support who fail because they choose that path, but when a student doesn't even have a chance? How is that fair to the student and the teacher? The teacher can only do so much.

I am not a fan of NCLB. It has forced teacher to bring instruction, in my opinion, down so that lower level students don't "fall through the cracks." I understand the point of wanting all our students to succeed, but when smart students, or even average students, are being ignored in order to bring everyone up to the same obtainable level there is a real disconnect.

I think people are on to something about too many students going to college. Many schools are expanding rapidly. Why? Money is the main reason. It really sucks for some people I know who are upper classmen that can't take the necessary courses to graduate because the course are only offered once a year or even once every three semesters. Why is that? Because schools are now offering massive amounts of general education classes (think Math 101, Geography 101, Speech classes, etc) that take up valuable resources and time from the schools and professors that can't be used elsewhere (like a 300 or 400 level class). Schools are also more inclined to hire adjunct professors for those basic classes thus causing highly qualified professors to be only part time or not hired due to their desires to be full time. It's all a bad cycle.

 

[GowerND11]

I'm very anti-computer for kids in the classroom. In college, do whatever you want. But I think it hinders "engagement" (there you go Wooly) for kids all the way through high school.

There is a higher level of memory retention when writing down notes instead of typing them/having them already on your computer, iPad, whatever. It also forces students into a higher level of thinking (and engagement) by actually processing the information in their heads and translating it onto paper. I can't tell you the number of times I've typed notes for 2 hours in law school and have no idea what I just typed.

Typing = cerebral process that requires less thinking
Writing = higher order of information processing that leads to greater retention

The best class I ever had in high school was an AP US History class. The teacher, who had been around for 35+ years and had taught my dad, just straight lectured. He had notes, but just talked. Everyone in the class scribbled notes furiously for 50 minutes - but everyone was more engaged.

First bolded statement:
States fighting to keep cursive handwriting in schools - UPI.com

Second:
I loved my History classes (One of the reasons I became a History teacher) mainly due to the taking of notes which really helped me learn. Listening and then writing reinforced what was being taught. Engaging students is the most important aspect of being a teacher. If you lose the interest of the students, you lose any ability to have them learn.

 

[Bluto]

I agree with Wooly on just about everything he said. I personally think the benefits of "technology" in schools is way overblown. Most kids don't even need to know what an IPad is until they can purchase one on their own. Smaller classrooms, more vocational and or experiential learning opportunities (having kids work on and maintain the school grounds for example), comprehensive nutrition and after school programs would do much more to improve achievement for low income kids (which I was growing up) in my opinion. I would also love to see a more Waldorf and or Montessori approach (both of which are centered around the cognitive stages of development) employed in the public sector. Eliminating junk food vendors and or vending machines from every campus in the US would be a good idea as well in my opinion.

 

[Chi_IRISH]

First, let me start off by stating that I have the privilege of teaching and coaching in a very diverse High School District in the south suburbs of Chicago. There are many different issues with “our” education system compared to the rest of the world.

1. We force “traditional” education on students that don’t care to be educated. We make an assumption that school is for everyone, but that isn’t necessarily true! We don’t tell our students that it is ok to go to the work force after high school, because we stress that everyone must go to college. Bottom line is most of my students would not succeed in a college setting. (Which is ok, but we need to provide them with skills necessary to become functioning members of society). However curriculum and mandated testing currently does not allow that. Common Core is hoping to change that: remains to be seen!
2. We don’t educate the “whole child”. Again, it is our jobs as educators to educate everything that a student may face. We need to keep in mind their social, emotional, and environmental situations. The reality is many homes are broken up and I may be the only positive male influence that, a particular student has ever had in their life.
3. We are so worried about teaching to the tests, that at times simple things such as discipline and a particular students needs may not be addressed.(Which drives me crazy)
4. New evaluation tools were passed by the Illinois State board that mandates 30% of my evaluation is based on student improvement, typically on standardized tests. Again how much time will I be able to focus on the “whole child” as opposed to a test?
5. Bottom line, At times I feel like a Father, Brother, Uncle, Social Worker, Teacher and a Coach. A good teacher must wear all those hats in today’s education system. This takes work and willingness to care! I love what I do and wouldn’t change it for the world. I may never be rich, but I could honestly say there hasn’t been a day in my 10 year career that I dreaded going to work.
Long rant but hope this sheds a little light.

 

[GowerND11]

First, let me start off by stating that I have the privilege of teaching and coaching in a very diverse High School District in the south suburbs of Chicago. There are many different issues with “our” education system compared to the rest of the world.

1. We force “traditional” education on students that don’t care to be educated. We make an assumption that school is for everyone, but that isn’t necessarily true! We don’t tell our students that it is ok to go to the work force after high school, because we stress that everyone must go to college. Bottom line is most of my students would not succeed in a college setting. (Which is ok, but we need to provide them with skills necessary to become functioning members of society). However curriculum and mandated testing currently does not allow that. Common Core is hoping to change that: remains to be seen!
2. We don’t educate the “whole child”. Again, it is our jobs as educators to educate everything that a student may face. We need to keep in mind their social, emotional, and environmental situations. The reality is many homes are broken up and I may be the only positive male influence that, a particular student has ever had in their life.
3. We are so worried about teaching to the tests, that at times simple things such as discipline and a particular students needs may not be addressed.(Which drives me crazy)
4. New evaluation tools were passed by the Illinois State board that mandates 30% of my evaluation is based on student improvement, typically on standardized tests. Again how much time will I be able to focus on the “whole child” as opposed to a test?
5. Bottom line, At times I feel like a Father, Brother, Uncle, Social Worker, Teacher and a Coach. A good teacher must wear all those hats in today’s education system. This takes work and willingness to care! I love what I do and wouldn’t change it for the world. I may never be rich, but I could honestly say there hasn’t been a day in my 10 year career that I dreaded going to work.
Long rant but hope this sheds a little light.

I think the bolded part can also be used in the US economy. We need to bring back those jobs in large numbers that allow students to join the workforce after high school.

 

[Chi_IRISH]

I think the bolded part can also be used in the US economy. We need to bring back those jobs in large numbers that allow students to join the workforce after high school.

Couldn’t agree more! However, “Technical” High Schools are staring to shut down for more “traditional” ones every day! It’s a shame and is not only hurting many kids and turning off to education, but is impacting our economy greatly!

 

[Wild Bill]

We need more discipline in schools. It's impossible to teach a room full of kids that cannot behave.

Most, if not all, of the teachers I know have problems handling unruly children. Addressing their behavior problems takes time away from teaching students who are there to learn.

 

[Rack Em]

We need more discipline in schools. It's impossible to teach a room full of kids that cannot behave.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/RsGkk1GGw3w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Most, if not all, of the teachers I know have problems handling unruly children. Addressing their behavior problems takes time away from teaching students who are there to learn.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/fxO2RalCu1Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[GowerND11]

We need more discipline in schools. It's impossible to teach a room full of kids that cannot behave.

Most, if not all, of the teachers I know have problems handling unruly children. Addressing their behavior problems takes time away from teaching students who are there to learn.

Couldn't that be perceived as a parental problem? Many students that act out do so for attention. If the parents are involved in the proper way maybe less behavior issues arise in class. Discipline in schools though is at a low as very few students fear consequences from their teachers.

Another problem I've noticed in the school I sub at is a lack of consistency with the rules and punishments for them. I feel that there are some rules and punishments that are far too Draconian and do not really teach a lesson, while others shouldn't be in the student handbook as they are never enforced. An example is 3 7th grade students were given 10 days OSS for having a laser pointer in school. It's deemed a weapon so 10 days OSS. These were good students and not trouble makers. That kind of punishment doesn't fit the crime IMO. The students aren't going to learn their lesson. Parents now have a massive logistical headache trying to find babysitters or takiing time off work for 10 days, and these good students miss two weeks worth of material.

 

[Wild Bill]

Couldn't that be perceived as a parental problem? Many students that act out do so for attention. If the parents are involved in the proper way maybe less behavior issues arise in class. Discipline in schools though is at a low as very few students fear consequences from their teachers.

Another problem I've noticed in the school I sub at is a lack of consistency with the rules and punishments for them. I feel that there are some rules and punishments that are far too Draconian and do not really teach a lesson, while others shouldn't be in the student handbook as they are never enforced. An example is 3 7th grade students were given 10 days OSS for having a laser pointer in school. It's deemed a weapon so 10 days OSS. These were good students and not trouble makers. That kind of punishment doesn't fit the crime IMO. The students aren't going to learn their lesson. Parents now have a massive logistical headache trying to find babysitters or takiing time off work for 10 days, and these good students miss two weeks worth of material.

Absolutely, but like Wooly said earlier, good luck trying to fix the parents.

 

[ACamp1900]

We continue to take more and more power away from schools, admins and teachers… then blame them when the system doesn’t work… As a (former) teacher and parent, I firmly believe we need to let the schools teach and let the stars on the staff shine the way they know how… it’s very much a cookie cutter method right now… for teachers and students

And as has been said, the core family unit in this country is no longer valued and parents are simply not held to account for not being parents.

Also, the average public school now plays to the lowest common denominator … meaning the lowest kids in the class are the focus and the middle and top kids tend to get lost in the shuffle… apply that philosophy to other venues of life… like your business for example… does that EVER work???

 

[ACamp1900]

We need more discipline in schools. It's impossible to teach a room full of kids that cannot behave.

Most, if not all, of the teachers I know have problems handling unruly children. Addressing their behavior problems takes time away from teaching students who are there to learn.

The Love and Logic stuff, while well meaning, has not improved a thing, in fact I believe it has gotten worse... but like I mentioned, the cookie cutter method to schools now has schools forcing teachers to use love and logic in their classes... raising your voice or getting stern is not allowed.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

The Love and Logic stuff, while well meaning, has not improved a thing, in fact I believe it has gotten worse... but like I mentioned, the cookie cutter method to schools now has schools forcing teachers to use love and logic in their classes... raising your voice or getting stern is not allowed.

That has not been my experience. However, raising your voice only works about 1-2 times a year before the teacher becomes a joke. Also, fear is not conducive to learning. Fight or flight responses cause the brain to reroute blood to physically defend oneself.

We're trying to force a business model into education. Education is not a business. We cannot fire students and every kid (even those with disabilities) are included in test score reporting. Standardized tests, moreover, don't measure many things that are actually important. Critical thinking skills are ditched so that kids will learn test strategies. That's because we've attached funding to achievement as a way to give teachers "motivation."

There is nothing new on this earth. It started with Sputnik and continued with A Nation at Risk, No Child Left Behind, and Common Core.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Part of the problem is that there is not much incentive to learn. We all hear about how adults/workers aren't "incentivized" or "challenged", and barely bat an eyelash when they want more money, but we fully expect children to perform in almost the same 7 hour environment for no reason other than a 'good feeling' and 'sense that they're helping their future.

 

[DSully1995]

Standardized testing....compared to what? Grades based on the the feeling of the individual teacher? or how that student has tried hard?

Competition benefits every single part of human interaction, except teaching? Why cant you have tests that require critical thinking?

You dont need a Fed Department however except to make a test really, Canada doesn't have one (for constitutional reasons but still) and we do well enough.

 

[woolybug25]

Standardized testing....compared to what? Grades based on the the feeling of the individual teacher? or how that student has tried hard?

Competition benefits every single part of human interaction, except teaching? Why cant you have tests that require critical thinking?

You dont need a Fed Department however except to make a test really, Canada doesn't have one (for constitutional reasons but still) and we do well enough.

Because all you teach kids is how to "test well" instead of creating students that understand the process of learning and how to apply it. School isn't a business, its population training. Right now, all we are training them to do is take tests instead of learning information and how to apply it.

 

[DSully1995]

Because all you teach kids is how to "test well" instead of creating students that understand the process of learning and how to apply it. School isn't a business, its population training. Right now, all we are training them to do is take tests instead of learning information and how to apply it.

Math&Science, two areas most promising are pretty no nonsense knowledge, also two areas US is falling behind.

And how else do you learn what the students have learnt if you dont?

 

[Rhode Irish]

Needs its own thread.

We spend more money in this country per pupil on education in the world, yet we rank 17th in the world in Reading and we're in the 30's in both Math and Science (K-12).

Most teachers don't get rich but their pensions and benefits are bankrupting school districts in the long term.

The talented/ dedicated teachers aren't rewarded enough and the poor/ lazy teachers who do the bare minimum can't get fired unless they sleep with a student.

There is no Constitutional right for the federal government to be involved in education. Period.

It's not all on the teachers/ admin. Part of this is the breakdown of the American family, too.

How long can we remain a superpower and the world's strongest economy?

I agree with just about all of this, with the exception of the obligatory swipe at the federal government. As long as you have states like Kentucky, Texas, Florida and others making a mockery of educational standards by teaching evolution as a "theory" alongside creationism, I will support the federal government intervening on behalf of those students by setting a national standard for curriculums.

Aside from that, it is hard to know what to do from a policy standpoint to fix the problems that students face in their own homes, but we can improve the quality of education by removing underperforming and unmotivated teachers from the system and paying the best teachers a wage that could entice prospective teachers to forego opportunities in the private sector to go into education. Obviously, this will require weakening public sector unions, which I am in favor of pretty much across the board.

Secondly, we HAVE TO focus some resource on our most talented students. This idea that everyone has to sit in the same classroom and learn the same things regardless of their ability is unfathomably stupid and ruinous to the quality of students we are producing. If there is any benefit to any student's self-esteem in the short term, that benefit is dwarfed by the damage it is doing to both high- and low-performing students in the long term. The most gifted and talented students should be given the most rigorous course load we can design, as every student should get the most rigorous course load they can reasonably handle commensurate with their ability.

And this concludes my least liberal post ever on this board.

 

[notredomer23]

I believe another reason for the state of our education system is the fact that it is never the kid's fault for failing or getting a poor grade. The parent(s) will not discipline their child anymore or make the kid study harder for the next test; rather, they blame the teacher for their kid's shortcomings. We are not holding the kids accountable.