Education

woolybug25

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Math&Science, two areas most promising are pretty no nonsense knowledge, also two areas US is falling behind.

And how else do you learn what the students have learnt if you dont?

Giving kids a book and making them do problems on a chalkboard is why we are in the situation we are in now.

Kids aren't learning HOW to learn, just WHAT to learn. I would argue that Math and Science are far less "no nonsense" than things like history or english. Both have a wide array of uses, styles and purposes. Teaching a kid to learn long division is much different than teaching a kid how to do geometry or applied statistics. In other countries, they don't teach kids that "1+2=3", but rather how they got there and what the process is if those numbers change.

Again. We don't teach kids how to learn in this country. We teach them information. Watch the video I posted above if that doesn't make sense. They probably explain it better.
 

IrishJayhawk

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Giving kids a book and making them do problems on a chalkboard is why we are in the situation we are in now.

Kids aren't learning HOW to learn, just WHAT to learn. I would argue that Math and Science are far less "no nonsense" than things like history or english. Both have a wide array of uses, styles and purposes. Teaching a kid to learn long division is much different than teaching a kid how to do geometry or applied statistics. In other countries, they don't teach kids that "1+2=3", but rather how they got there and what the process is if those numbers change.

Again. We don't teach kids how to learn in this country. We teach them information. Watch the video I posted above if that doesn't make sense. They probably explain it better.

This is the trend. Teachers are trying to do both, but they're being undermined by policy that is written by politicians instead of educators. That creates kids who live on the bottom two rungs of Bloom's Taxonomy.

Creating
Evaluating
Analyzing
Applying
Understanding
Remembering
 

Whiskeyjack

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That has not been my experience. However, raising your voice only works about 1-2 times a year before the teacher becomes a joke. Also, fear is not conducive to learning. Fight or flight responses cause the brain to reroute blood to physically defend oneself.

We're trying to force a business model into education. Education is not a business. We cannot fire students and every kid (even those with disabilities) are included in test score reporting. Standardized tests, moreover, don't measure many things that are actually important. Critical thinking skills are ditched so that kids will learn test strategies. That's because we've attached funding to achievement as a way to give teachers "motivation."

There is nothing new on this earth. It started with Sputnik and continued with A Nation at Risk, No Child Left Behind, and Common Core.

That, I believe, is the main reason behind the current crises in both healthcare and education.

Pat Deenen published a great article on this subject very recently:

Often discussed in different sections of the newspaper or the blogosphere, the twin crises of health care and higher education are extraordinary in their similarities. Both are regarded as necessary goods for human flourishing whose costs are spiraling out of control. Both rely on a professional class that is becoming more specialized, losing the generalist who once cared for the “whole person.” Both have seen expanding intervention by the central government which has sought to provide access to the lower and middle classes. Both are believed by many conservatives to be properly reformed by means of market-based solutions. Both are the subject of intense contemporary political debate.

And both were once almost exclusively the province of the Church, and, indeed, can trace their institutional origins—hospitals and universities—as part of the Church’s charitable ministry.

This latter fact, it seems to me, sheds bright light on the common roots of the contemporary crisis of each area. The dominant voices in the debate in both areas—health and education—cleave closely to the contemporary party lines. On the Right, the case is made that a competitive market model will solve the ills of both health care and education. By allowing prices to be driven by supply and demand, and the motivations of the primary actors—doctors and professoriate, on the one hand, patients and students, on the other—to be largely self-interested, the market will resolve how best to allocate the relatively limited access to the best health care and the best institutions of higher education. On the Left, it is believed that the State should rest a heavy hand on the scales of the market, enforcing widespread access, suppressing costs (or providing subsidies), and forcing providers to conform to state-mandated expectations and standards.

Yet there is something fundamentally amiss with making provision of health and higher education contingent on market models and profit calculus, as both seem to be goods that are not subject to the same kind of calculus as automobiles and bubble gum. The very idea that doctors and teachers are or ought to act out of the motivations of self-interest, and provide services to their “consumers,” seems fundamentally contradictory to the kind of work and social role performed by each. The decline of the “generalist” in each sphere is indicative of a deeper crisis of the willingness to act on behalf of a broader conception of the good intrinsic to each profession and on behalf of the person being served, in favor of the specialization encouraged by modern canons of efficiency, productivity, profit, and rationalization.

At the same time, the State is rightly suspected of being unable to fundamentally improve or even maintain the quality of either sphere. It is doubtless the case that it can assure access by the heavy hand of threats, but many rightly worry that, as a consequence, the quality of care and education will deteriorate as a result. The State takes on the ersatz role of “generalist,” seemingly concerned for the good of the whole. It can only pursue that good by seeking to control pricing and access while influencing the ways “care” is provided, but it fails necessarily in caring for the vision of the whole that the actors of the professions are no longer willing or able to perform.

The debate as currently constituted represents a pincer movement aimed ultimately at the re-definition of each area—as we have seen in so many areas of contemporary life. While superficially opposites, proponents of each position in fact share a fundamental hostility to the original presuppositions that had informed the foundation of both institutions—the corporal works of charity central to the Church’s earthly mission.

In fact, it seems increasingly evident that practices such as health care and education are likely to fail when wholly uninformed by their original motivation of religious charity. Neither functions especially well based on the profit-motive or guided by large-scale national welfare policies. As the failure of the market model in each area becomes evident, the demands for the second—government intervention and control—have quickly followed. That both are reaching crises at the same time is hardly coincidental: both benefitted for a long time from the “social capital” accumulated as Church institutions, a legacy of cultures and practices that persisted for a long time even after the practitioners had ceased to embrace them. However, in both cases, the social capital is now depleted, and each now operates on a nonsensical combination of self-interested market motivations and taxation and threat-based national welfare policy. Neither is a fitting motivation or model for either sphere.


Even more deeply still, it is not untoward to speculate that part of the modern project is eventually to drive the Church from the dominant, and even residual, place of trustee in all areas of life where it once reigned. The market and State have infiltrated all areas where once the Church was the main actor, transforming institutions ranging from schools to land-stewardship to charity to marriage simultaneously in the image of market-based individual choice and nationalized demands for equalized homogeneity.

The motivation of charity is deeply suspect by both the Right and the Left. The Right—the heirs of the early modern liberal tradition—regard the only legitimate motivation to be self-interest and the profit motive. They favor a profit-based health-care system (one explored to devastating effect in this recent article on health care in the New Yorker), and a utilitarian university (the “polytechnic utiliversity” ably explored by Reinhard Huetter in the most recent issue of First Things).

The Left—while seemingly friends of charity and “social justice”—are deeply suspicious of motivations based on personal choice and religious belief. They desire rather the simulacrum of charity in the form of enforced standardization, homogeneity, and equality, based on the motivation of abstract and depersonalized national devotions and personal fear of government punishment. They insist on the appearance of “social justice” without any actual commitment to this end on the part of the citizenry. As a result, enforced equality gives rise to resentment and ill-will throughout the citizenry, turning commitments to goods that ought to be widely shared—health and education—into hot-button political issues.

In both spheres, health and education only “work” when those working in those areas are motivated most deeply by care for the people they serve—especially those who are less powerful, less mature, less accomplished than the professions that should rightly be considered “vocations,” not merely jobs. Both spheres require care for the whole person in all of their complete and individual integrity, not treatment of people as “parts” whom we serve mainly for the advancement of one’s own career or profit. In both spheres, increasingly, those who purportedly serve others—doctors and professors, who purportedly serve persons as patients and students—know little to nothing about either. They have become good workers on an assembly line, putting heads on pins, ignorant of the “product” they make—its history, its current state, its ultimate end.

Both spheres also require a concomitant shared commitment to commonweal on the part of those who benefit from the contributions of the professions. Doctors and teachers are not simply to be viewed as providing a service for pay, subject to the demands of “consumers.” Viewed through this market-based lens, the “buyers” make the demands on the providers. However, this understanding undermines the proper relationship between trustee and beneficiary—the doctor or teacher is actually in a relationship of responsible authority with the recipient, and ought rightly to make demands and even render judgments upon the one who is paying for the service. The trustee has a duty and a responsibility to enlarge the vision of the recipient—in matters of health (how certain behaviors might have led to a state of illness, in what ways the person ought to change their lives outside the doctor’s office), and formation (thus, a student should be challenged by the teacher not only to do well in the subject at hand, but to become a person of character in all spheres of life). Both the market and the State, however, increasingly regard the recipients simply as “consumers,” a view that is increasingly shared by every member and part of society.

Both practices are most appropriately animated by a more encompassing conception of human flourishing, which both integrally serve. Both are increasingly reduced to a utilitarian logic that internally destroys the integrity of each sphere, and, in that destruction, requires the increased intervention and control by the State.

For much of Western history, there was an understanding that there were two spheres of legitimate authority and competence—the Church and State, religious and civil. As part of the modern project, the Church was stripped of all claims to competence other than purely private belief. Arguably, one result of the increasing separation of the Church from these practices has been a bounty of benefits deriving from an increasingly scientistic and utilitarian pursuit of each, both premised on the human ability to master and control nature. These achievements are constantly celebrated as the rewards of the modern settlement (though the long-term benefits from this “mastery” seem tenuous to me).

But almost altogether unnoticed are the attendant costs of this transformation, costs that, ironically, make both health and education increasingly the province of the strong and wealthy. The appearance of crisis in each sphere at the same time is not coincidental—it is a consequence of a conscious set of decisions to banish motivations of Christian charity from almost every institution of human life. In their place, we have two deficient motivations and attendant practices—self-interest and depersonalized State-mandated social justice. It becomes clearer with every passing day that neither suffices, even as both grow stronger at the expense of the only motivation that might save us—the love of God to the point of contempt of self.
 

GoIrish41

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I agree with just about all of this, with the exception of the obligatory swipe at the federal government. As long as you have states like Kentucky, Texas, Florida and others making a mockery of educational standards by teaching evolution as a "theory" alongside creationism, I will support the federal government intervening on behalf of those students by setting a national standard for curriculums.

Aside from that, it is hard to know what to do from a policy standpoint to fix the problems that students face in their own homes, but we can improve the quality of education by removing underperforming and unmotivated teachers from the system and paying the best teachers a wage that could entice prospective teachers to forego opportunities in the private sector to go into education. Obviously, this will require weakening public sector unions, which I am in favor of pretty much across the board.

Secondly, we HAVE TO focus some resource on our most talented students. This idea that everyone has to sit in the same classroom and learn the same things regardless of their ability is unfathomably stupid and ruinous to the quality of students we are producing. If there is any benefit to any student's self-esteem in the short term, that benefit is dwarfed by the damage it is doing to both high- and low-performing students in the long term. The most gifted and talented students should be given the most rigorous course load we can design, as every student should get the most rigorous course load they can reasonably handle commensurate with their ability.

And this concludes my least liberal post ever on this board.

As a fellow liberal, I cannot find anything in this post with which I disagree. I particularly agree with the bolded portion. Few influences outside of the home can influence a child more than a quality teacher. Overall, their pay is not compatible with the nition of attracting excellence into a profession that ultimately has the potential to collectively change the course of the nation's future. Removing teachers who underperform is not done enough either. Teaching young people is far too important to try to get by on the cheap.
 

ACamp1900

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That has not been my experience. However, raising your voice only works about 1-2 times a year before the teacher becomes a joke. Also, fear is not conducive to learning. Fight or flight responses cause the brain to reroute blood to physically defend oneself.

We're trying to force a business model into education. Education is not a business. We cannot fire students and every kid (even those with disabilities) are included in test score reporting. Standardized tests, moreover, don't measure many things that are actually important. Critical thinking skills are ditched so that kids will learn test strategies. That's because we've attached funding to achievement as a way to give teachers "motivation."

There is nothing new on this earth. It started with Sputnik and continued with A Nation at Risk, No Child Left Behind, and Common Core.

Every school in relative driving distance has, in the last couple years, adopted L&L and the two closest (worked for both) have basically, from the administrative level, made raising your voice a no/no. I can also tell you, from teaching 4th, 5th, 6th graders, raising your voice and or getting stern with the class is at times your best option, and the children certainly do not look at the teacher willing to do that as ‘a joke’… when looking from a child to adult, fear is part of respect.

I was regularly, the ‘popular teacher’… as a matter of fact, i was 'that teacher' on every campus i taught at... the kids loved me,... Mr. Campbell was also known for being a ‘line Nazi’ and very strict, and it’s not hard to build that structure and find balance… it really isn’t. I could not function in the schools that now insist on L&L(Not that other wonderful teacher can’t) … different styles, but again, let your stars shine, don’t hamper them by insisting they fit a certain mold.

Just my two cents.


btw, are you a teacher??
 
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IrishJayhawk

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As a fellow liberal, I cannot find anything in this post with which I disagree. I particularly agree with the bolded portion. Few influences outside of the home can influence a child more than a quality teacher. Overall, their pay is not compatible with the nition of attracting excellence into a profession that ultimately has the potential to collectively change the course of the nation's future. Removing teachers who underperform is not done enough either. Teaching young people is far too important to try to get by on the cheap.

In my 13 years in classrooms, I have never seen a proposal of a reasonable way to give merit-based pay. When one asks how teachers should be evaluated, we inevitably hear about test scores. And, again, we're back to teaching kids how to memorize and do well on a test instead of teaching them how to think. In addition, you have the apples to oranges comparison depending on the kids you have, the courses you teach, etc.

I'm not sure there's a profession where more people think they know more than those who have been trained to do it. After all, we've all been in classrooms. How hard can it be?*




*That said, I suppose we're all on a sports message board talking about what should happen on the field...
 

IrishJayhawk

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Every school in relative driving distance has, in the last couple years, adopted L&L and the two closest (worked for both) have basically, from the administrative level, made raising your voice a no/no. I can also tell you, from teaching 4th, 5th, 6th graders, raising your voice and or getting stern with the class is at times your best option, and the children certainly do not look at the teacher willing to do that as ‘a joke’… when looking from a child to adult, fear is part of respect.

I was regularly, the ‘popular teacher’… the kids loved me,... Mr. Campbell was also known for being a ‘line Nazi’ and very strict, and it’s not hard to build that structure and find balance… it really isn’t. I could not function in the schools that now insist on L&L(Not that other wonderful teacher can’t) … different styles, but again, let your stars shine, don’t hamper them by insisting they fit a certain mold.

Just my two cents.


btw, are you a teacher??

Yes, sir.
 

woolybug25

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Every school in relative driving distance has, in the last couple years, adopted L&L and the two closest (worked for both) have basically, from the administrative level, made raising your voice a no/no. I can also tell you, from teaching 4th, 5th, 6th graders, raising your voice and or getting stern with the class is at times your best option, and the children certainly do not look at the teacher willing to do that as ‘a joke’… when looking from a child to adult, fear is part of respect.

I was regularly, the ‘popular teacher’… the kids loved me,... Mr. Campbell was also known for being a ‘line Nazi’ and very strict, and it’s not hard to build that structure and find balance… it really isn’t. I could not function in the schools that now insist on L&L(Not that other wonderful teacher can’t) … different styles, but again, let your stars shine, don’t hamper them by insisting they fit a certain mold.

Just my two cents.


btw, are you a teacher??

Yes… part of my puzzle is complete.

Soon...
 

irishog77

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I agree with just about all of this, with the exception of the obligatory swipe at the federal government. As long as you have states like Kentucky, Texas, Florida and others making a mockery of educational standards by teaching evolution as a "theory" alongside creationism, I will support the federal government intervening on behalf of those students by setting a national standard for curriculums.

Aside from that, it is hard to know what to do from a policy standpoint to fix the problems that students face in their own homes, but we can improve the quality of education by removing underperforming and unmotivated teachers from the system and paying the best teachers a wage that could entice prospective teachers to forego opportunities in the private sector to go into education. Obviously, this will require weakening public sector unions, which I am in favor of pretty much across the board.

Secondly, we HAVE TO focus some resource on our most talented students. This idea that everyone has to sit in the same classroom and learn the same things regardless of their ability is unfathomably stupid and ruinous to the quality of students we are producing. If there is any benefit to any student's self-esteem in the short term, that benefit is dwarfed by the damage it is doing to both high- and low-performing students in the long term. The most gifted and talented students should be given the most rigorous course load we can design, as every student should get the most rigorous course load they can reasonably handle commensurate with their ability.

And this concludes my least liberal post ever on this board.

Haha! I laughed! But true. I was a little unsure of myself as I found myself agreeing with one of your posts!

Good post. Reps.
 

Ndaccountant

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From the latest economist......the natioms where kids do the best ( finland, south korea, etc) draw their teachers from the top third of their academic pool. In the states, 75% of teaching training colleges accept studentd who graduate in the bottom half of their class. Just thought i would share that.

One other tidbit. In Florida, 97% of teachers received a top rating based in pupil development. Before using that measurement as a basis of ratings, 99% got top ratings.
 

Chi_IRISH

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I agree with just about all of this, with the exception of the obligatory swipe at the federal government. As long as you have states like Kentucky, Texas, Florida and others making a mockery of educational standards by teaching evolution as a "theory" alongside creationism, I will support the federal government intervening on behalf of those students by setting a national standard for curriculums.

Aside from that, it is hard to know what to do from a policy standpoint to fix the problems that students face in their own homes, but we can improve the quality of education by removing underperforming and unmotivated teachers from the system and paying the best teachers a wage that could entice prospective teachers to forego opportunities in the private sector to go into education. Obviously, this will require weakening public sector unions, which I am in favor of pretty much across the board.

Secondly, we HAVE TO focus some resource on our most talented students. This idea that everyone has to sit in the same classroom and learn the same things regardless of their ability is unfathomably stupid and ruinous to the quality of students we are producing. If there is any benefit to any student's self-esteem in the short term, that benefit is dwarfed by the damage it is doing to both high- and low-performing students in the long term. The most gifted and talented students should be given the most rigorous course load we can design, as every student should get the most rigorous course load they can reasonably handle commensurate with their ability.

And this concludes my least liberal post ever on this board.

I couldn’t agree more! However my state just passed a law allowing more inclusion in the classroom. We used to have a law that stated only 30% of your regular education classroom could be labeled as special education. Now, as a teacher, you could theoretically have up to any % labeled special education in a gen ed setting. Is this a cost saving measure? (for sure don’t have to hire as many sped teachers). As far as curriculum is concerned the USA is different in the fact that we go over a mile worth the curriculum and only go over it an inch deep. Other countries give an inch worth curriculum and go over it a mile deep. They also hold students accountable by holding them back, but we tend to “move” students along as much as possible. (Which does a disservice). Again when administrators are judged on things such as graduation rates this tends to happen. Only about 14% of my student body graduates from a 4 year university, however we have over a 98% grad rate. These numbers alone point to the fact that we are not preparing our students for the future! I do what I can in my 50 min. class period and beyond, but it obviously isn’t enough!
 

EddytoNow

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My mother is a school teacher, having taught many years in Catholic and public schools. She will tell you three things (and tell you and tell you):

1) Money is not the determining factor in a quality education, assuming you are above a certain threshold, and many of those who tell you that it is are interested mostly in their own economic well being and political agendas;

2) Parents, not teachers, are the single biggest factor in how a child gets educated. Teachers need to be of high quality, but a child excelling in school, apart from a parent or parents who hold that child accountable, is relatively rare; and

3) Too many teachers favor school of education theory at the expense of common sense and a love for their students, and too many do not teach simply for the love of the job.

I never met a more natural teacher than my mother, or one who loved teaching, or her students, more.

I commend your mother for her dedication, but my guess is that your mother's income was not the primary or sole income in your family. Therefore, she could afford to make her income secondary to her love of teaching. Many teachers do not have that luxury. There income is in many cases the only income for the family, and in many cases that income is not enough to support themselves, let alone a spouse or children. Where I live beginning teachers at private schools can make as little as $20,000-$25,000 per year. Public school teachers fare a little better earning slightly over $30,000 per year. Subtract health care costs, retirement contributions, FICA, state income taxes, and federal income taxes and those teachers are taking home $15,000-$20,000 per year. If your spouse earns good money or you are a single teacher living at home with your parents, you can place your love of teaching first and not worry about how much you make. If you are a single parent or the sole source of income for your family, it's a little more difficult to live at or near the poverty line without advocating for an adequate salary to support yourself and your family. At some point it is going to get old telling your children, we can't afford to ....

Teachers from two income families earn enough to live a middle class lifestyle comparable to factory workers. Teachers living solely on their income as a teacher must do without the things many middle-class income families take for granted.

I am a teacher, and I love teaching. But loving teaching doesn't pay for a new roof on my hundred-year-old home. Loving teaching doesn't pay for a $1200 car repair bill. Loving teaching doesn't help me pay for the braces my three teenagers need. Loving teaching doesn't pay the $300 every nine weeks that my teenagers need to participate on the sports teams where I teach and coach. Loving teaching didn't earn me a decent enough retirement to permit me to stop teaching as my health fails. Love teaching didn't provide me with any extra money to invest in stocks, IRA's, 401-K's, or the like.

Yes, I love teaching, and I can honestly say I love it more than most. But the bottom line is I still have to pay my bills. It's a sad state of affairs when we permit our teachers to be blamed for all of our social ills. Pick a teacher from your country-of-choice, place them in an inner-city school in Detroit, Chicago, LA, in rural Appalachia, or on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation and see if their students get the same test scores their students in the home country got. Our teachers are as dedicated as any in the world. The problem with schools isn't with the teachers. It is with the politicians, who don't know a thing about education, and this whole ***inine teach-to-the-test approach encouraged by school administrators based upon political pressures that fly in the face of what needs to be done.

End of rant.
 

Grahambo

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Florida Principal Agrees With Mom Angry Over Son's Honor Roll Status - Yahoo

A Florida principal agreed today with a mother who was angry that her son made the honor roll despite having a C and a D on his report card.
Principal Kim Anderson of Pasco Middle School in Dade City, Fla., was siding with Beth Tillack who was upset that her seventh grade son Douglas was on the honor roll and his report card came with a teacher's comment, "good job" and a smiley face.
The principal said that 45 percent to 50 percent of the school's students are on the honor roll. She said it was a "difficult situation" and that Beth Tillack was justified in questioning policies surrounding the school's standards and system of assessment.
"I do agree with her," said Anderson. "I feel it's important for students to progress by meeting standards. We measure them by standards, they know if they've met them or not. Sometimes grades don't always indicate that."
The Pasco Middle School honor roll system is based on a weighted grade point averages, meaning that the 3.16 average Douglas Tillack achieved overall for his four A's, a C and a D, just pushed him over the honors requirement line, which is set at 3.15.
Theoretically, children could get an F and still qualify for the honor roll, said Anderson, which is problematic when a child might not be motivated to perform like they should.
"Her son is a bright boy and can do the work. There are choices he's making," Anderson said. "He knows exactly what he can get away with. Maybe this is a wake-up call that there are higher expectations."
Beth Tillack told ABC News affiliate WFTS that when she saw the report card and the honor roll notice, "I immediately assumed it's a mistake. It was glaring in the fact that it said 'good job' and then there was a D."
Tillack said that after her complaint, the school reissued the card, replacing "good job" with "Work on civics. Ask for help."
"The bottom line is there's nothing honorable about making a D," said Tillack. "I was not happy, because how can I get my child to study for a test when he thinks he's done enough?"
Anderson said the teachers do not individually decide who makes the honor roll, but simply "go by the numbers."
"The notion that the school doesn't have the individual discretion to set standards is troubling," says Abby Schachter, author and mother of four who runs a popular blog. "Things have become so bureaucratized. Even if the standards are set at the district level, one would hope the schools would find a way to operate within that."
Schachter says the case is also symptomatic of the development of the "self- esteem movement," or the fact "You can't say something negative because their feelings will be hurt and they won't overcome a rejection or criticism."
"The teachers are not doing students any favors by falsely encouraging students," she said. "They shouldn't discourage them, but failing to let them know when they are underachieving is not promoting growth."
Anderson said she'll be asking teachers to review report cards more closely from now on to ensure progress is measured as accurately as possible.
"The buzz about this has caused us to look at it. I'm not sure if we'll change it, but we're looking at it," the principal said.
 

CarrollVermin

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Great thread thus far.

I am a college professor and have the gamut in my classes when it comes to preparation and college readiness. I see a lot of this split along socio-economic lines. My experience is that students from poor public schools tend to perform lower than those from private schools (majority of mine are Catholic schools...can't speak for others). A lot of my students also come from single-parent homes where the parent has to work late to make ends meet...that also creates issues in their educational development.

There is no easy answer. I know that several states have introduced school vouchers, but those programs have largely been debated in communities and states. In my state, tax payers do not want to pay for a child to go to private schools, and parents of students already in private schools do not want their children going to school with those students that would transfer in. Creates a heated debate...don't know what side is right or wrong.

Many argue that programs such as Teach for America and ACE are actually putting those schools that they serve at a disadvantage. The argument is that these teachers have the best of intentions, but are not prepared to actually be educators. As a result, they do not prepare the students as fully as they should. Again, one of those heated debates.

The system is indeed broken. We do not spend enough time one the STEM subjects that are necessary for today's global economy. I personally hate standardized testing...as noted on here, too many teachers spend time teaching to the test, but you need some way of knowing that standards are being met...which creates yet another...heated debate.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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I agree with just about all of this, with the exception of the obligatory swipe at the federal government. As long as you have states like Kentucky, Texas, Florida and others making a mockery of educational standards by teaching evolution as a "theory" alongside creationism, I will support the federal government intervening on behalf of those students by setting a national standard for curriculums.

Aside from that, it is hard to know what to do from a policy standpoint to fix the problems that students face in their own homes, but we can improve the quality of education by removing underperforming and unmotivated teachers from the system and paying the best teachers a wage that could entice prospective teachers to forego opportunities in the private sector to go into education. Obviously, this will require weakening public sector unions, which I am in favor of pretty much across the board.

Secondly, we HAVE TO focus some resource on our most talented students. This idea that everyone has to sit in the same classroom and learn the same things regardless of their ability is unfathomably stupid and ruinous to the quality of students we are producing. If there is any benefit to any student's self-esteem in the short term, that benefit is dwarfed by the damage it is doing to both high- and low-performing students in the long term. The most gifted and talented students should be given the most rigorous course load we can design, as every student should get the most rigorous course load they can reasonably handle commensurate with their ability.

And this concludes my least liberal post ever on this board.

That "swipe" is well-deserved. The Feds have no business or authority in education, Common Core and NCLB are counter-productive, the Dept of Ed educates no one yet has a budget of $68 BILLION.

Ask teachers and administrators. They want more localized control of their curricula and less top down orders from their state and the feds. Challenges for a school in the Bronx are not the same as a school in Westchester County, NY, just as schools in Nebraska face different challenges than those in Chicago.
 

IrishSteelhead

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This is my tenth year, and all have been inner-city public. 2 in Chicago, 6 in Phoenix, and now 2 in Indy.

The hardest part of the job is being forced to act as a willing punching bag for 8 hours a day, with absolutely no support from administration.

Some days are better than others, but my "crusade" is definitely over after this year, and I will be moving to a district in the burbs.

I regret nothing, and have enjoyed my experience everywhere I've been, but a career seeing what I have every day is not in the cards for my sanity's sake.
 

Rhode Irish

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That "swipe" is well-deserved. The Feds have no business or authority in education, Common Core and NCLB are counter-productive, the Dept of Ed educates no one yet has a budget of $68 BILLION.

Ask teachers and administrators. They want more localized control of their curricula and less top down orders from their state and the feds. Challenges for a school in the Bronx are not the same as a school in Westchester County, NY, just as schools in Nebraska face different challenges than those in Chicago.

That's your opinion, and I have a different one. I don't trust people enough to let them make decisions locally (that goes for education and everything else; I'm about as anti- "states' rights" as you can be), so I'd prefer the Feds be involved in setting standards for curriculums and providing funding for communities in need. If you and I can understand that different communities face different challenges, so can the Dept. of Education. If teachers and administrators were doing a better job I would care more about what they want. Everyone wants less oversight, but you have to demonstrate you deserve it first.
 
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DillonHall

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I don't understand the backlash against standardized exams. The past two that I've taken (MCAT and USMLE Step 1) require you to think and analyze well in order to do well. Memorization is necessary just to give yourself a chance to do well.
 

Bluto

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That's your opinion, and I have a different one. I don't trust people enough to let them make decisions locally (that goes for education and everything else; I'm about as anti- "states' rights" as you can be), so I'd prefer the Feds be involved in setting standards for curriculums and providing funding for communities in need. If you and I can understand that different communities face different challenges, so can the Dept. of Education. If teachers and administrators were doing a better job I would care more about what they want. Everyone wants less oversight, but you have to demonstrate you deserve it first.

Good post. One of the history teachers at the high school I went to would show the class Charlton Heston movies (Ben Hur, Ten Commandments) and John Wayne movies (The Alamo) with no qualifiers like "uh this is completely inacurate". Now that I think about it he must have intentionally left out Planet of the Apes.
 

GowerND11

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I don't understand the backlash against standardized exams. The past two that I've taken (MCAT and USMLE Step 1) require you to think and analyze well in order to do well. Memorization is necessary just to give yourself a chance to do well.

Because they expect all students to be the same. The standardized tests in elementary and secondary schools have no elasticity or flexibility. They don't take into account the education a student has received up to that point. Your last exams were specific to a specific career you desired to pursue. The standardized tests are also weighed for school funding and so many students must pass in order for a school to succeed. As I have mentioned before these goals are too rigid. If a school is only at 50% proficient in math how can you expect the students to reach 75% the next year? Just not realistic. So even if the school improves to say 57%, which is a positive thing right? There was growth after all. They are still penalized.

Students are also sick of these tests. They find the tests to be a waste of time. Now in PA we have the Keystone Exams in place. Standardized tests students must pass to graduated high school. That's just absurd. That isn't an incentive for students and teachers. Too many politicians want to prove that teachers aren't doing their jobs, so they cripple teachers abilities to TEACH by introducing unrealistic standards.
 

DillonHall

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Because they expect all students to be the same. The standardized tests in elementary and secondary schools have no elasticity or flexibility. They don't take into account the education a student has received up to that point. Your last exams were specific to a specific career you desired to pursue. The standardized tests are also weighed for school funding and so many students must pass in order for a school to succeed. As I have mentioned before these goals are too rigid. If a school is only at 50% proficient in math how can you expect the students to reach 75% the next year? Just not realistic. So even if the school improves to say 57%, which is a positive thing right? There was growth after all. They are still penalized.

Students are also sick of these tests. They find the tests to be a waste of time. Now in PA we have the Keystone Exams in place. Standardized tests students must pass to graduated high school. That's just absurd. That isn't an incentive for students and teachers. Too many politicians want to prove that teachers aren't doing their jobs, so they cripple teachers abilities to TEACH by introducing unrealistic standards.

Yeah, this is all true. However, life's not fair and some people are born with advantages that others aren't. There's nothing that can change that (although Obama's trying his very best).
 

GowerND11

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Yeah, this is all true. However, life's not fair and some people are born with advantages that others aren't. There's nothing that can change that (although Obama's trying his very best).

True, then why act like all students are equal? That's what standardized testing is doing. It doesn't take into account poor education and situations. It lumps all students into one giant category. We need to track student growth, but the way it is being done is not conducive to helping students learn. Some have advantages, great they should excel. Those that don't should be given a chance to succeed as well, but we can't expect them to be on equal ground when the foundations they are on are sand.
 

irishpat183

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Needs its own thread.

We spend more money in this country per pupil on education in the world, yet we rank 17th in the world in Reading and we're in the 30's in both Math and Science (K-12).

Most teachers don't get rich but their pensions and benefits are bankrupting school districts in the long term.

The talented/ dedicated teachers aren't rewarded enough and the poor/ lazy teachers who do the bare minimum can't get fired unless they sleep with a student.

There is no Constitutional right for the federal government to be involved in education. Period.

It's not all on the teachers/ admin. Part of this is the breakdown of the American family, too.

How long can we remain a superpower and the world's strongest economy?

Awesome. It proves that "just throw more money at it, and it will get better" is horseshit.

Hello war on drugs!


Another big issue? We're allowing the wrong people to teach. Teachers not only have some of the worst ACT/SAT scores, but often are some of lowest in their college graduating classes.

Again, not ALL, but there is a large portion. THese people should not be teaching.


And parents need to get more involved in their child's education.
 

irishpat183

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I don't understand the backlash against standardized exams. The past two that I've taken (MCAT and USMLE Step 1) require you to think and analyze well in order to do well. Memorization is necessary just to give yourself a chance to do well.

I agree somewhat. There is a reason that we have those tests...to measure what you've learned.

Those that cry to get rid of them are somewhat defending the idiots and those that chose not to make use of time in school.

Now, does it tell you EVERYTHING? Of course not. But there needs to be something in place to measure what's been learned.
 

irishpat183

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True, then why act like all students are equal? That's what standardized testing is doing. It doesn't take into account poor education and situations. It lumps all students into one giant category. We need to track student growth, but the way it is being done is not conducive to helping students learn. Some have advantages, great they should excel. Those that don't should be given a chance to succeed as well, but we can't expect them to be on equal ground when the foundations they are on are sand.

Why? One could make the argument that person doesn't belong in college. And let's be honest, those are also likely the kids that don't bother to study or have much in the way of extracurricular activities either.

You can succeed at other things. We need to get over this "everyone needs to go to college mindset"
 

GowerND11

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Why? One could make the argument that person doesn't belong in college. And let's be honest, those are also likely the kids that don't bother to study or have much in the way of extracurricular activities either.

You can succeed at other things. We need to get over this "everyone needs to go to college mindset"

I didn't mean a chance to succeed through more schooling (IE traditional schooling like college). I meant a chance to succeed in life through their education in elementary school and high school, and giving them a viable chance to succeed in the workforce. Provide them with the tools necessary to be a competent part of society. This also means, as I said on the first page, educating them in trades and bringing back more blue collar jobs as well.
 

irishpat183

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I didn't mean a chance to succeed through more schooling (IE traditional schooling like college). I meant a chance to succeed in life through their education in elementary school and high school, and giving them a viable chance to succeed in the workforce. Provide them with the tools necessary to be a competent part of society. This also means, as I said on the first page, educating them in trades and bringing back more blue collar jobs as well.

So then what does that have to do with succeding in life? We should just be honest with kids and point them in the right direction.

Some people are meant for sweeping floors, so are meant to walk on said floors in expensive shoes.
 

Grahambo

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I didn't mean a chance to succeed through more schooling (IE traditional schooling like college). I meant a chance to succeed in life through their education in elementary school and high school, and giving them a viable chance to succeed in the workforce. Provide them with the tools necessary to be a competent part of society. This also means, as I said on the first page, educating them in trades and bringing back more blue collar jobs as well.

I didn't take the SAT/ACT in high school and honestly crapped the bed with grades because I was lazy and didn't care. I then realized I needed to care but it was too late as it was senior year and I wasted high school. So, I did the next best thing and joined the military where they taught me my job and allowed me to get a 'college degree' from a paper mill online school. And believe me, I have a solid job/career and it can get even more solid if I choose.

The problem I see with my absolute limited knowledge of education is that there is too much emphasis on going to college and getting a degree. Much of what you can use to succeed at a job is given to you by that job. Most jobs have the degree requirement which is why people feel the need to go.
 
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