Culture

[wizards8507]

You just can't safely use class as a proxy for virtue. I've mentioned this before, but as an estate planning attorney, the richer the client, the more f*cked up their kids are.

Of course. I was never suggesting a linear relationship, especially at the extreme ends of the distribution. I don't encounter the uber wealthy very often (if ever), so I wasn't even including folks like your high net worth clients in my calculus. My point was more about poverty being a potential red flag for something bad than wealth serving as a proxy for anything good.

At those ages, a good rule of thumb I've found for whether or not I can trust another set of parents with one of my kids for a playdate is, "Does their kid have a smart phone?" If yes, they're either clueless or negligent about what their kid is likely looking at online, which is a huge red flag. And in my experience, the parents who do that are usually both working and producing a high household income.

Jeeze, that's insane and definitely not "a thing" among my coworkers. Most parents here seem to agree that the appropriate time to get a plain old non-smart cell phone is during middle school when after-school activities start, with a smartphone coming much later if at all.

 

[ACamp1900]

My daughter just got a smart phone (Sophomore in High School) and we have it's browser locked constantly (though my wife and I are aware she prob knows ways around that). My youngest (1st grade) just has the tablet I mentioned earlier.... both of them do not have a single friend without a smart phone, not. one. My oldest constantly brings up how she's the only one she knows without unfiltered smart phone access. I obviously assume that's not entirely true but knowing Cali parents, and having been a teacher in this area and such,... I know it's mostly true.

 

[NDohio]

I've seen it in my own kids as well. The corporate heads of many Silicon Valley tech giants pay big money to send their kids to screen-free schools, all while lobbying to stick lower class kids in front of screens for longer and longer periods each year. And there's a growing body of research showing many strongly negative correlations between increased screen time and social skills, attention span, achievement, etc.



And that's mostly laudable. Just don't make the mistake of equating "wholesome and fulfilling life" with a bourgeois upper-middle class lifestyle. Yes, the poor are prone to certain types of vice, but the rich have their own problems. By way of example, my boys are in 5th, 3rd and 1st grade (respectively), while my daughter is in half-day preschool. At those ages, a good rule of thumb I've found for whether or not I can trust another set of parents with one of my kids for a playdate is, "Does their kid have a smart phone?" If yes, they're either clueless or negligent about what their kid is likely looking at online, which is a huge red flag. And in my experience, the parents who do that are usually both working and producing a high household income.

You just can't safely use class as a proxy for virtue. I've mentioned this before, but as an estate planning attorney, the richer the client, the more f*cked up their kids are.

My wife teaches HS English in a very poor district that provides every student with a tablet. She has presented to the BOE, on several occasions, articles about Silicon Valley parents' attitude toward technology in the schools. Every presentation has fallen on deaf ears. Her number one stress point daily is her students being on phones or their tablets when they are not supposed to be or surfing the net during the times they are supposed to be doing something instructional on the tablet. Hopefully school districts will wake up some day but I doubt it.

I am thankful that my kids were just ahead of the "every kid has a smartphone by age six" phenomenon that is currently out there.

 

[greyhammer90]

Do they sell smart phones without cameras? I don't have a problem giving my kid access to a (censored) internet, but they don't need a camera, particularly front facing cameras and particularly if they are girls. Too much dumb, too many hormones, too much pressure, no need to share any of it.

I'm a pretty big proponent of "screentime isn't inherently bad its what you're doing with it." There's a BIG difference between playing minecraft for an hour and watching youtube unboxing videos for an hour.

On a side note for parents who are concerned about your screens being designed to be addictive, make your kids devices in greyscale. A lot of shitty apps that rely on their addictive quality are designed to be extremely colorful. Greyscale helps reduce the endorphin release. I use it on my own cell phone.

 

[Bluto]

It has always been interesting for me to read some of your experiences growing up. I can't stress what different worlds it is... I got good grades and all that, played sports, good kid... My family was poor though, white during the height of AA, and culturally yeah, just 'poor'. The thought of going to a prestigious school and all that was like dreaming of winning the lottery. It was a cool thought but it wasn't something that happens in 'the real world'. All my uncles, cousins, my father, they were all just laborers, most still are. My father took one semester at the local JC and that was like a badge of honor in the family. I remember when I got my graduate degree it made for an awkward topic during family gatherings, like I just got back from the moon or something. I have like 30 cousins on my father's side and still just my sister, myself and a couple others have anything beyond high school. I look back now and think I could prob have gotten into some of those schools had I just known what I know now... but I didn't. No one in my world did.

Reps. Had a similar experience. Here’s one of the best stories I have along those lines.

In the spring of my senior year in high school I happen run into my high school guidance counselor who was also the defensive coordinator for the football team. He asks me “what you doing next year? You going to BC (Bakersfield City College)? Maybe play some ball?” I told him I had been accepted to Cal Poly SLO. His response “How the hell did you do that!?”. Lol

 

[ACamp1900]

Reps. Had a similar experience. Here’s one of the best stories I have along those lines.

In the spring of my senior year in high school I happen run into my high school guidance counselor who was also the defensive coordinator for the football team. He asks me “what you doing next year? You going to BC (Bakersfield City College)? Maybe play some ball?” I told him I had been accepted to Cal Poly SLO. His response “How the hell did you do that!?”. Lol

I honestly think on it sometimes and have no idea how I got where I am... it all just kind of happened by odd circumstance and one day I looked up and I was a college administrator. I had zero presence in my life that valued education. Everything was graduate high school, get married and start working. I ended up going off to school if I'm honest because i wasn't ready to grow up and to be close to my high best friend ( I followed him to the school of his choice). It didn't work out after two years and I went back home. I finished my degree at another school not because I figured I needed a degree to better myself but rather because the adviser there who oversaw the degree plan I thought best fit me was smoking hot (she's now my wife). Got my graduate degree because my wife's background was a bit more worldy and she pushed me into getting a Master's... I thought at the time, "Well it'll put my loan payments back on hold..." Honest to goodness a lot of it was just dumb luck and happenchance that got me out of living in the same shitty neighborhood, laying carpet for the rest of my life,... Now laying carpet is a good trade that many in my family still do but I'm too soft for all that.....

 

[zelezo vlk]

I honestly think on it sometimes and have no idea how I got where I am... it all just kind of happened by odd circumstance and one day I looked up and I was a college administrator. I had zero presence in my life that valued education. Everything was graduate high school, get married and start working. I ended up going off to school to be close to my high best friend. It didn't work out after two years and I went back home. I finished my degree at another school not because I figured I needed a degree to better myself but rather because the adviser there who oversaw the degree plan I thought best fit me was smoking hot (she's now my wife). Got my graduate degree because my wife's background was a bit more worldy and she pushed me into getting a Master's... I thought at the time, "Well it'll put my loan payments back on hold..." Honest to goodness a lot of it was just dumb luck and happenchance that got me out of living in the same shitty neighborhood, laying carpet for the rest of my life,... Now laying carpet is a good trade that many in my family still do but I'm too soft for all that.....

And now you get to live in EP, what a world!

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Do they sell smart phones without cameras? I don't have a problem giving my kid access to a (censored) internet, but they don't need a camera, particularly front facing cameras and particularly if they are girls. Too much dumb, too many hormones, too much pressure, no need to share any of it.

If not, they ought to. There should be a market among parents who want to provide mobile connectivity without all the risks associated with a camera phone.

I'm a pretty big proponent of "screentime isn't inherently bad its what you're doing with it." There's a BIG difference between playing minecraft for an hour and watching youtube unboxing videos for an hour.

I doubt many here would argue that screen time is inherently bad. Our gaming thread is very active, and I assume most of us posting there manage to play responsibility with minimal disruption to our families and jobs. But that's because we're (mostly) disciplined adults. My gaming habits were definitely not healthy as a child, and as you alluded to in your last paragraph, everything about a smart phone is specifically designed to encourage addiction and abuse. Helping a child to use one responsibly is way more work than most parents are capable of; especially since there's a constant temptation to use them as digital babysitter.

On a side note for parents who are concerned about your screens being designed to be addictive, make your kids devices in greyscale. A lot of shitty apps that rely on their addictive quality are designed to be extremely colorful. Greyscale helps reduce the endorphin release. I use it on my own cell phone.

Good advice. You might be interested in the Light Phone 2. I may pick one up for myself if the price drops.

 

[ACamp1900]

And now you get to live in EP, what a world!

right,...

Me arriving in El Paso like, "Now how did THIS happen!?!?!"

 

[zelezo vlk]

right,...

Me arriving in El Paso like, "Now how did THIS happen!?!?!"

It could be worse. Could be Lubbock

 

[ACamp1900]

My 20 year HS reunion was this past year... I went to a couple big football games and met a bunch of people I knew back in school but lost total contact with after graduation. They were all about sharing their divorce stories, job search woes, their addiction battles,... they all lived in the same terrible neighborhoods we grew up in. They were planning the next big party like it was literally still high school, laughing about how so and so passed out behind the couch last week "Pictures on Facebook y'all!" (The same Facebook their now grown or at least HS aged children are on). I felt bad for them all, and they had no idea how it looked from my perspective because that's really all they ever knew. I think it really hit me then and I've been thinking on it often in the past year... then wizards post from yesterday made it kind all come back to the surface. I'm very fortunate to have escaped all of that and most of it was simply luck if I'm honest.

 

[zelezo vlk]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">It would be hyperbolic to say that San Francisco has *banned* children, but it’s incredible how much of an afterthought they are here. The spaces for them — small parks, a daycare here or there, suggest children are merely accommodated, not included, in the city’s ecosystem.</p>— Tamara Winter (@_TamaraWinter) <a href="https://twitter.com/_TamaraWinter/status/1074756056960532480?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 17, 2018</a></blockquote>
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[GowerND11]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">It would be hyperbolic to say that San Francisco has *banned* children, but it’s incredible how much of an afterthought they are here. The spaces for them — small parks, a daycare here or there, suggest children are merely accommodated, not included, in the city’s ecosystem.</p>— Tamara Winter (@_TamaraWinter) <a href="https://twitter.com/_TamaraWinter/status/1074756056960532480?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 17, 2018</a></blockquote>
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Include the cost of living in that city, how can one raise a child there anyway?

 

[Bluto]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">It would be hyperbolic to say that San Francisco has *banned* children, but it’s incredible how much of an afterthought they are here. The spaces for them — small parks, a daycare here or there, suggest children are merely accommodated, not included, in the city’s ecosystem.</p>— Tamara Winter (@_TamaraWinter) <a href="https://twitter.com/_TamaraWinter/status/1074756056960532480?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 17, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Children and child development are an afterthought throughout much of the country. This is not unique to SF. In the case of SF it would be easy to argue that it is much more “child friendly” than it was in the 70’s to mid 90’s.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Children and child development are an afterthought throughout much of the country. This is not unique to SF. In the case of SF it would be easy to argue that it is much more “child friendly” than it was in the 70’s to mid 90’s.

One could argue that SF is just further along the path than many other cities.

 

[RDU Irish]

I've seen it in my own kids as well. The corporate heads of many Silicon Valley tech giants pay big money to send their kids to screen-free schools, all while lobbying to stick lower class kids in front of screens for longer and longer periods each year. And there's a growing body of research showing many strongly negative correlations between increased screen time and social skills, attention span, achievement, etc.



And that's mostly laudable. Just don't make the mistake of equating "wholesome and fulfilling life" with a bourgeois upper-middle class lifestyle. Yes, the poor are prone to certain types of vice, but the rich have their own problems. By way of example, my boys are in 5th, 3rd and 1st grade (respectively), while my daughter is in half-day preschool. At those ages, a good rule of thumb I've found for whether or not I can trust another set of parents with one of my kids for a playdate is, "Does their kid have a smart phone?" If yes, they're either clueless or negligent about what their kid is likely looking at online, which is a huge red flag. And in my experience, the parents who do that are usually both working and producing a high household income.

You just can't safely use class as a proxy for virtue. I've mentioned this before, but as an estate planning attorney, the richer the client, the more f*cked up their kids are.

I'll just opine that zip codes and tax brackets may change but people don't. Wifey works newborn - Raleigh location is a high volume, lower rent, Cary not much of the unwashed masses. Same drug screens on moms and babies in similar proportions - just one is prescription and the other is not. Both pretty horrible but social work is more rarely called in Cary.

I grew up in poor, rural midwest - heckled for even applying to ND. Plenty of good and bad folks. Attentive parents raise respectful kids, negligent parents raising derelict kids. To me, a derelict kid with money is a lot more dangerous than one without. Poor kid isn't going to sue you or buy their way out or lawyer their way out of every problem. On the margin - so many coddled, entitled, apathetic kids that can't self direct squat. Selfish, every kid for themselves mentality promoted strongly by parents living the same mantra.

 

[Irishize]

Of course. I was never suggesting a linear relationship, especially at the extreme ends of the distribution. I don't encounter the uber wealthy very often (if ever), so I wasn't even including folks like your high net worth clients in my calculus. My point was more about poverty being a potential red flag for something bad than wealth serving as a proxy for anything good.

I got what you meant. In my experience, I have found that it’s not so much poverty that is a red flag but parenting. You give me a working poor family w/ both parents (married or divorced) who are active in their children’s life & I’ll predict success for those kids. You give me a wealthy family w/ an absent father or mother, and I’ll predict dysfunction w/ those kids. To further the anecdote, even families w/ both parents involved still requires the father (or father figure) to reject passivity. Passivity in males is the biggest issue I see at my kids’ high school. Being a man is a helluva lot more than emulating John Wayne or The Rock.

 

[Irish YJ]

A buddy of mine from Cardiff by the Sea, and one of his friends from SF where discussing this topic probably 2 years ago. The guy from SF was complaining about day care options, etc.. My buddy from Cardiff says.... "I didn't know they even hetero'd in SF, why do they need child care". I LOL'd... but he actually spit out some facts. SF is in the top 5 cities with the lowest share of children under 18.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">It would be hyperbolic to say that San Francisco has *banned* children, but it’s incredible how much of an afterthought they are here. The spaces for them — small parks, a daycare here or there, suggest children are merely accommodated, not included, in the city’s ecosystem.</p>— Tamara Winter (@_TamaraWinter) <a href="https://twitter.com/_TamaraWinter/status/1074756056960532480?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 17, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Bluto]

One could argue that SF is just further along the path than many other cities.

Not sure how to read this. If you could expand on this it would be helpful. Anyhow, in the specific case of SF it is much more child friendly than back in the 80’s and 90’s if (and that’s a big if) you can afford to live there.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

I would think SF is a very child friendly city, seeing young kids like to poop and pee everywhere too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Irish YJ]

I would think SF is a very child friendly city, seeing young kids like to poop and pee everywhere too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They have free sterilized bottle distribution, and bottle drinking galleries all over the city.

 

[connor_in]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This all-male cheerleading squad is challenging gender norms. &#55357;&#56399; <a href="https://t.co/9wEZlEZyNu">pic.twitter.com/9wEZlEZyNu</a></p>— HuffPost (@HuffPost) <a href="https://twitter.com/HuffPost/status/1079772214826860544?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 31, 2018</a></blockquote>
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[Legacy]

I had large organizations for a fortune 25 for 10+ years before I moved on to other ops. We cut at min twice per year. 500K is a very small target. Depending on employee type, it could be under 5 employees loaded. Our typical cut just in a small corner, of a small corner of the company, which was still large in terms of HC, was normally 1-5M. HR in large companies are very distant from the actual hiring/firing, and limited to mostly policy and compliance. Leadership typically comes up with a numbers which is then filtered down to OPS management and HR. OPS has to "figure it out" while HR monitors and pushes paper. They get their hands in the working level only when issues arise. Definitely one of the more insulated groups. The impact on individuals who have to make downsizing decisions is very real, but HR has many degrees of separation.

I can't be sure of the dollar target number, but appreciate your insight. While any personnel cuts have significant impacts on those families, I imagine cutting five employees with triple digit incomes means disruption of more long-term, productive employees who are older with children at schools, financial commitments, investments in their communities, more concern about losing health and other safety net benefits, etc. have cumulative cultural impacts. Certainly that is somewhat mediated by the other spouse having a professional job with the security it may bring. This may be one of the more destructive trends in our society.

 

[connor_in]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Just now on <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CNNNYE?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#CNNNYE</a>: Jane Curtin says her New Year's resolution is to "make sure that the Republican Party dies"<br><br>Stay classy, CNN <a href="https://t.co/2Kg5tStEFp">pic.twitter.com/2Kg5tStEFp</a></p>— Cameron Gray (@Cameron_Gray) <a href="https://twitter.com/Cameron_Gray/status/1079944779365081088?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 1, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[wizards8507]

Certainly that is somewhat mediated by the other spouse having a professional job with the security it may bring.

The research doesn't bear that out. Households where both spouses work are actually much more susceptible to financial turmoil.

https://www.amazon.com/Two-Income-Trap-Middle-Class-Parents-Going/dp/0465090907

 

[Legacy]

The research doesn't bear that out. Households where both spouses work are actually much more susceptible to financial turmoil.

https://www.amazon.com/Two-Income-Trap-Middle-Class-Parents-Going/dp/0465090907

I realize that there were differing opinions on the topic. I appreciate the reference. You linked Elizabeth Warren's book? You've read it?

 

[wizards8507]

I realize that there were differing opinions on the topic. I appreciate the reference. You linked Elizabeth Warren's book? You've read it?

I have. It's wholly unrecognizable from Elizabeth Warren the politician.

 

[NDRock]

The research doesn't bear that out. Households where both spouses work are actually much more susceptible to financial turmoil.

https://www.amazon.com/Two-Income-Trap-Middle-Class-Parents-Going/dp/0465090907

What's the basic reason for this? People expending themselves to the point of needing both incomes and being twice as likely one loses their job?

 

[wizards8507]

What's the basic reason for this? People expending themselves to the point of needing both incomes and being twice as likely one loses their job?

Exactly, the biggest expenditure being the mortgage, which many dual income households can't afford if they lost either job.

 

[NDRock]

Exactly, the biggest expenditure being the mortgage, which many dual income households can't afford if they lost either job.

Makes sense. See that some times with the younger guys I work with. Others do a great job with their finances. More people need a little Dave Ramsey in their lives.