Crist vs Rees

[IrishinSyria]

You are just harming your own argument.

Crist 1 turnover in the redzone in 1 half
Rees 4 in 7.

Would you like me to do the math out on this? Because it doesn't look good for your arguement.

That's really solid statistical analysis right there. A trend of 1 is certainly big enough to project future performance...

which leads me to the last thing I'll say about this: I'm not sure who would be better for the Irish, Tommy or Dayne. It seems to me that the reason Tommy has been successful is that Kelly limits the offense to a rather bread and butter approach when he's in, allowing other players and our defense to shine.

The reason I wan Crist to start is that, as a former NCAA athlete, what Kelly is doing to him seems profoundly unfair. It would be one thing if Tommy was clearly a better QB, but he's really not. Kelly naming Dayne his starter and then pulling him after one mediocre half is just downright ******. If you don't have the confidence to let the kid regroup in the locker room, make adjustments, and come out and play the second half then don't make him your starter in the first place. After all, Rees played a much worse first half than Crist against Pitt but was given the opportunity to finish the game. I'm not ready to call Kelly a player-****er yet, but I really don't like the way he's handled Crist.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

After all, Rees played a much worse first half than Crist against Pitt but was given the opportunity to finish the game.

Rees is rumored to have to been one more bad drive away from getting pulled at the half before he put together two pretty good drives (the first ended in yet another red zone interception, and the second ended in the missed FG).

 

[BobD]

That's really solid statistical analysis right there. A trend of 1 is certainly big enough to project future performance...

which leads me to the last thing I'll say about this: I'm not sure who would be better for the Irish, Tommy or Dayne. It seems to me that the reason Tommy has been successful is that Kelly limits the offense to a rather bread and butter approach when he's in, allowing other players and our defense to shine.

The reason I wan Crist to start is that, as a former NCAA athlete, what Kelly is doing to him seems profoundly unfair. It would be one thing if Tommy was clearly a better QB, but he's really not. Kelly naming Dayne his starter and then pulling him after one mediocre half is just downright ******. If you don't have the confidence to let the kid regroup in the locker room, make adjustments, and come out and play the second half then don't make him your starter in the first place. After all, Rees played a much worse first half than Crist against Pitt but was given the opportunity to finish the game. I'm not ready to call Kelly a player-****er yet, but I really don't like the way he's handled Crist.

For some reason I've felt there was more than poor play that got Dayne pulled and not given a chance to redeem himself. I wonder if he said something that day while BK was blowing up? Just a thought.

 

[BGIF]

...

The reason I wan Crist to start is that, as a former NCAA athlete, what Kelly is doing to him seems profoundly unfair. It would be one thing if Tommy was clearly a better QB, but he's really not. Kelly naming Dayne his starter and then pulling him after one mediocre half is just downright ******. If you don't have the confidence to let the kid regroup in the locker room, make adjustments, and come out and play the second half then don't make him your starter in the first place. After all, Rees played a much worse first half than Crist against Pitt but was given the opportunity to finish the game. I'm not ready to call Kelly a player-****er yet, but I really don't like the way he's handled Crist.

Do know how he's actually handled Crist? You don't, do you? Aside from the change none of us know what discussions took place, what progress was to be demonstrated, and how he graded out.

Contrary to the BS that was posted tonight Crist wasn't the clear cut starter. Kelly noted when he named Crist the season starter that he and the staff found NEITHER had won the job. Kelly expounded that he and the staff had kept detailed records on drills and situational performances in practice and NEITHER one had an edge. So he picked one.

Did he flip a coin as the tie breaker? Did he opt for the "man" versus the "boy"? (Crist is 2.5 years older.) Did he chose the more mobile QB? (Well at least before 2 knee surgeries. Is Crist as mobile as Pike now? We know Rees, isn't.) Was it the 5 Stars and HS clippings? (I don't think so either.) Was it based on the rehab effort Crist put forth?

What we do know was Rees did NOT get the job based upon superior height, superior build/muscle, superior arm strength, superior foot speed, lower Interception Percentage, so ...

Why was the preseason competition a dead heat?

I've read hundreds of complaining posts by Kuehnja, Irishff1014, et al, but they can't explain other than 6-5, cannon arm, 5 Stars, upside, upside, upside, why Crist DIDN'T win the job outright with all the advantages he had. No one doubts he has superior talent. So how could there possibly be tie in all those CLOSED practices?

Basic fact at the start of the season, ND did not have clear cut starting QB. That should have been huge red flag for those forecasting not just double digit wins but even a 6-6 season. Go check the forecast threads, not just the Won/Lost record but the Yards Thrown, TDs Thrown, Floyd's and Eifert's numbers (based on Dayne's arm).

Now the same people that were talking Heisman and how we would beat USF by 5 TDs are devastastated that the season is lost.

ND started the season with two #1 QBs due to the deadheat. Twenty years ago Lou Holtz said, "If you have two #1s, you don't have a #1. You have two, #2s."

So I come back to, with all Dayne's superior talent, how could the competition be a dead heat preseason?

Could it be that there was another factor not openly discussed that leveled the playing field? Shortly after The Turning Point started posting on this site he commented on Crist's demeanor or attitude during the '10 Michigan game. He added some comments from some of his teammates. I was stunned. If you go back and look at the thread, I pressed TPO hard as I had read nothing publicaly to substantiate his comments. TPO stood firm.

Syria, you find Kelly pulling Crist at USF halftime harsh. Someone else posted yesterday that Kelly made a "panic decision". Kelly had two hours due to the weather to discuss with his OC and the rest of his staff is he desired, the decision's effect on that game, on the team, and on the season. They choose Rees. After the game Kelly noted that they had discussed that decision with both QBs. It was NOT a snap decision. I'll hazard a guess that Kelly made the preseason decision based on Crist's dogged determination during rehab, and the hope that he had overcome his shortcomings with another year of maturity. BUT they didn't see it on the field in the first half nor under the stadium during the storm delay.

And no, I wasn't there either. I believe the coaching staff thinks that Rees's turnovers can be managed (improved over time) while they didn't see that in the other situation. Kelly and staff didn't make a knee jerk reaction contrary to many here who are demanding a knee jerk reaction be made now.

Rees plays like a backup which is what he was until the other backup either went down or was sat down. But in the coaching staff's eyes he gives the team the best shot to win at this point in the season.

And as IrishJayHawk presented preseason Kelly said there were really two QBs at one level with a big difference to the next level. Look at the difficulty both Crist and Rees had in getting the play called in via the Red Army, calling the play, reading the defense, audiblizing to a new play, moving players, and getting the snap off before a whistle. Both experienced QBs have run out of time more than once. Rookies will be worse in this offense until they get up to speed.

 

[irishff1014]

Do know how he's actually handled Crist? You don't, do you? Aside from the change none of us know what discussions took place, what progress was to be demonstrated, and how he graded out.

Contrary to the BS that was posted tonight Crist wasn't the clear cut starter. Kelly noted when he named Crist the season starter that he and the staff found NEITHER had won the job. Kelly expounded that he and the staff had kept detailed records on drills and situational performances in practice and NEITHER one had an edge. So he picked one.

Did he flip a coin as the tie breaker? Did he opt for the "man" versus the "boy"? (Crist is 2.5 years older.) Did he chose the more mobile QB? (Well at least before 2 knee surgeries. Is Crist as mobile as Pike now? We know Rees, isn't.) Was it the 5 Stars and HS clippings? (I don't think so either.) Was it based on the rehab effort Crist put forth?

What we do know was Rees did NOT get the job based upon superior height, superior build/muscle, superior arm strength, superior foot speed, lower Interception Percentage, so ...

Why was the preseason competition a dead heat?

I've read hundreds of complaining posts by Kuehnja, Irishff1014, et al, but they can't explain other than 6-5, cannon arm, 5 Stars, upside, upside, upside, why Crist DIDN'T win the job outright with all the advantages he had. No one doubts he has superior talent. So how could there possibly be tie in all those CLOSED practices?

Basic fact at the start of the season, ND did not have clear cut starting QB. That should have been huge red flag for those forecasting not just double digit wins but even a 6-6 season. Go check the forecast threads, not just the Won/Lost record but the Yards Thrown, TDs Thrown, Floyd's and Eifert's numbers (based on Dayne's arm).

Now the same people that were talking Heisman and how we would beat USF by 5 TDs are devastastated that the season is lost.

ND started the season with two #1 QBs due to the deadheat. Twenty years ago Lou Holtz said, "If you have two #1s, you don't have a #1. You have two, #2s."

So I come back to, with all Dayne's superior talent, how could the competition be a dead heat preseason?

Could it be that there was another factor not openly discussed that leveled the playing field? Shortly after The Turning Point started posting on this site he commented on Crist's demeanor or attitude during the '10 Michigan game. He added some comments from some of his teammates. I was stunned. If you go back and look at the thread, I pressed TPO hard as I had read nothing publicaly to substantiate his comments. TPO stood firm.

Syria, you find Kelly pulling Crist at USF halftime harsh. Someone else posted yesterday that Kelly made a "panic decision". Kelly had two hours due to the weather to discuss with his OC and the rest of his staff is he desired, the decision's effect on that game, on the team, and on the season. They choose Rees. After the game Kelly noted that they had discussed that decision with both QBs. It was NOT a snap decision. I'll hazard a guess that Kelly made the preseason decision based on Crist's dogged determination during rehab, and the hope that he had overcome his shortcomings with another year of maturity. BUT they didn't see it on the field in the first half nor under the stadium during the storm delay.

And no, I wasn't there either. I believe the coaching staff thinks that Rees's turnovers can be managed (improved over time) while they didn't see that in the other situation. Kelly and staff didn't make a knee jerk reaction contrary to many here who are demanding a knee jerk reaction be made now.

Rees plays like a backup which is what he was until the other backup either went down or was sat down. But in the coaching staff's eyes he gives the team the best shot to win at this point in the season.

And as IrishJayHawk presented preseason Kelly said there were really two QBs at one level with a big difference to the next level. Look at the difficulty both Crist and Rees had in getting the play called in via the Red Army, calling the play, reading the defense, audiblizing to a new play, moving players, and getting the snap off before a whistle. Both experienced QBs have run out of time more than once. Rookies will be worse in this offense until they get up to speed.

If Crist never got hurt last year you would see how awesome this offense could be . But kelly had his man crush on Rees so Crist is the odd man out. Its bad when the now stater has a slimed down play book then Crist did. Makes sense right?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

If Crist never got hurt last year you would see how awesome this offense could be . But kelly had his man crush on Rees so Crist is the odd man out. Its bad when the now stater has a slimed down play book then Crist did. Makes sense right?

I think you just illustrated BGIF's point. You have a strong belief, but little/no evidence to back such strong assertions.

Do you really think that any of us care more about winning the game than Kelly? It's his job. Do you really think that he thinks Crist is a better option, but is keeping in Rees because he likes him better?

I'll say one more time...we don't know what they see in practice. We don't know how much of the playbook they are running. All we can do is trust the coach. It's his offense.

 

[irishff1014]

Practice doesn't matter. The games are what you live by and Rees is going to cost you games turn over the ball. You say what you want if we play a good team they will make you pay for that.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Practice doesn't matter. The games are what you live by and Rees is going to cost you games turn over the ball. You say what you want if we play a good team they will make you pay for that.

And I could just as easily say that in actual games, Tommy won. Hence the record argument from his supporters. Utah, USC, Miami, Michigan State...good teams, all.

I understand your frustration. I just don't know how anyone can have a strong feeling about this, except that we need better QB play overall.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Let me start this blessedly brief post with the statement that it is BS and has lots of possibilities of being wrong.

Kelly has an abnormally large amount of experience of working with quarterbacks. I believe that any such person would get a feel for both the smack-simple physical stuff, but also the "mental" stuff. To put it one way: Kelly will get a sense of whether the QB looks like he's "got it" or hasn't ever had it [and doesn't have it now].

In camp, Dayne looked like he had it physically [compared to Tommy]. But, to make it a horse race, Tommy MUST have had it in the "other" area, which we, frankly can't evaluate. [BGIF has made this same logical point in different language]. When Dayne struggled and came off the field, everything about him signaled Kelly that the physical was going to be depressed by the "other". He went with Tommy, as in his past experience, the "other" takes you further than the physical, if you have trust in your offensive system.

Theory. Intuition. Won't defend it, just putting it out there. People can disagree two ways: 1). with the theory... fair enough. Would be good to hear why, however. 2). with Kelly... probably fighting over your weight on that one.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Practice doesn't matter. The games are what you live by and Rees is going to cost you games turn over the ball. You say what you want if we play a good team they will make you pay for that.

Well, you just made BGIF's point for him. Practice means nothing according to you...and in games Crist is what, 4-4 (I might be wrong there)? And Rees is 6-1 as a starter. We played the #15 team in the country and we won - with Rees. We did the same thing last year - with Rees.

Rees has plenty of issues, no doubt at all, but I've yet to hear a better alternative. That's all I'm saying.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Well, you just made BGIF's point for him. Practice means nothing according to you...and in games Crist is what, 4-4 (I might be wrong there)? And Rees is 6-1 as a starter. We played the #15 team in the country and we won - with Rees. We did the same thing last year - with Rees.

Rees has plenty of issues, no doubt at all, but I've yet to hear a better alternative. That's all I'm saying.

I think I said the same thing about 2 posts up. Atta boy.

 

[irishff1014]

However When Myer starts talking about change in areas he also knows what he is talking about. Like have said before i don't want BK fired or any of is coaches however i starting to question some things he is doing.

 

[tankjeep]

Well, you just made BGIF's point for him. Practice means nothing according to you...and in games Crist is what, 4-4 (I might be wrong there)? And Rees is 6-1 as a starter. We played the #15 team in the country and we won - with Rees. We did the same thing last year - with Rees.

Rees has plenty of issues, no doubt at all, but I've yet to hear a better alternative. That's all I'm saying.

yep agreed. and he steps up when needed in crucial situation. it may be ugly, but he finishes strong. people can complain all they want, but like you said ndinla, he's 6-1 as a starter, this isn't kyle orton we are talking about with the bears. rees can play and he had a bad game vs. pitt on the road against a team that had nothing to lose & everything to gain.

he came out on top, plain and simple.

 

[nd1]

the only thing I see rees doing wrong is: it looks like before the play is being snapped he has already made his mind up where he is going to. Even if he is covered he will still throw to that man instead of looking off to another. Now i know he had to in the last part of game because they were double teaming floyd the whole game and he had to go to someone else. I think we have some good wr's and he needs to spread it around. if one is covered then throw to one of the othere and stop trying to force the ball in there.

 

[tankjeep]

the only thing I see rees doing wrong is: it looks like before the play is being snapped he has already made his mind up where he is going to. Even if he is covered he will still throw to that man instead of looking off to another. Now i know he had to in the last part of game because they were double teaming floyd the whole game and he had to go to someone else. I think we have some good wr's and he needs to spread it around. if one is covered then throw to one of the othere and stop trying to force the ball in there.

agreed. i think the more rees gets reps, the more comfortable he'll get....as if he can't get any more comfortable. he looks as relaxed as can be, but i think the game will slow down for me even more over time.

 

[irishff1014]

Well, you just made BGIF's point for him. Practice means nothing according to you...and in games Crist is what, 4-4 (I might be wrong there)? And Rees is 6-1 as a starter. We played the #15 team in the country and we won - with Rees. We did the same thing last year - with Rees.

Rees has plenty of issues, no doubt at all, but I've yet to hear a better alternative. That's all I'm saying.

Rees might be the reason we won what 3 games. I think it is funny how Kelly made a decision but as soon as the road looked like it was going to get rocky he changed. But when the road is rocky and the replacement continues to make the same mistakes over and over again it ok to ride it out. Last year of the games lost was because our defense sucked at the begining of the season. And the navy game was bad for one Reason Crist tried to do what ever he could because noone else was helping out the defense sure wasn't doing its part.

 

[anarin]

Maybe we can just settle this in a Notre Dame QB Death Match?

 

[bigedefense]

Practice doesn't matter. The games are what you live by and Rees is going to cost you games turn over the ball. You say what you want if we play a good team they will make you pay for that.

Really? Well, thats the problem then. Coach Kelly is wasting time each week making the team do it. HAHAHAHA

 

[FLDomer]

Rees might be the reason we won what 3 games. I think it is funny how Kelly made a decision but as soon as the road looked like it was going to get rocky he changed. But when the road is rocky and the replacement continues to make the same mistakes over and over again it ok to ride it out. Last year of the games lost was because our defense sucked at the begining of the season. And the navy game was bad for one Reason Crist tried to do what ever he could because noone else was helping out the defense sure wasn't doing its part.

Agreed! I believe that we have won the games we have this year dispite Rees. We have one because of improved defensive play, a great O-line, solid running backs and or Receivers adjusting and making great catches on some poorly thrown balls. Seriously, their would have been no need for a Defensive collapse in the 4th qtr against UM if rees doesnt throw those picks and the sniper on the grassy knoll doesnt shoot the ball out of his hand in the red zone. I was all for giving Rees a shot but if he hasnt gotten it yet... well crist atleast runs the offense at a more rapid pace.

9 Turnovers is unacceptable!! He has 15 turnovers for what 7 starts!!

 

[NDinL.A.]

Rees might be the reason we won what 3 games. I think it is funny how Kelly made a decision but as soon as the road looked like it was going to get rocky he changed. But when the road is rocky and the replacement continues to make the same mistakes over and over again it ok to ride it out. Last year of the games lost was because our defense sucked at the begining of the season. And the navy game was bad for one Reason Crist tried to do what ever he could because noone else was helping out the defense sure wasn't doing its part.

You're not looking at it from the same direction I am at all. I'm looking at it this way:

At halftime of the USF game, Crist had led the offense to exactly zero points, and once Gray fumbled, he was putrid. Just awful. I was at the game, and during the 2 hour halftime, not one fan that I talked to (and i talked to a lot) thought that Crist should go back into the game. The season was on the line, the offense looked like crap, and the team needed a jumpstart. And Rees gave them that jump start. I swear, if TJ turns his head, or if Ruffer makes that chippie, we win that game. As it was, we still scored 20 points.

So you HAVE to go with Rees vs. Michigan. You lose the team if you don't. And Rees was insane vs. Michigan...but he turned the ball over (which he MUST stop obviously). And in the end, he brings the team back on an insane late drive that should have gone down in ND history, but the defense imploded. So now, you have to stick with Rees with all the offense he's putting up.

Then he leads the team to a victory against the #15 team in the nation. You gonna pull him then?

Then he stinks it up vs. Pitt, but when the game was on the line, he was flawless, on the road. You gonna pull him now after a 2 game winning streak? Not going to happen.

And as for Crist vs. Navy...you're sounding worse than Rees supporters. We lost vs. Navy because the defense sucked and Crist sucked royally. Just because he was trying really hard, doesn't mean he didn't suck. The difference between Crist and Rees is, when Rees sucks, ND still wins. The team just plays better for Rees, for whatever reason...

 

[tankjeep]

You're not looking at it from the same direction I am at all. I'm looking at it this way:

At halftime of the USF game, Crist had led the offense to exactly zero points, and once Gray fumbled, he was putrid. Just awful. I was at the game, and during the 2 hour halftime, not one fan that I talked to (and i talked to a lot) thought that Crist should go back into the game. The season was on the line, the offense looked like crap, and the team needed a jumpstart. And Rees gave them that jump start. I swear, if TJ turns his head, or if Ruffer makes that chippie, we win that game. As it was, we still scored 20 points.

So you HAVE to go with Rees vs. Michigan. You lose the team if you don't. And Rees was insane vs. Michigan...but he turned the ball over (which he MUST stop obviously). And in the end, he brings the team back on an insane late drive that should have gone down in ND history, but the defense imploded. So now, you have to stick with Rees with all the offense he's putting up.

Then he leads the team to a victory against the #15 team in the nation. You gonna pull him then?

Then he stinks it up vs. Pitt, but when the game was on the line, he was flawless, on the road. You gonna pull him now after a 2 game winning streak? Not going to happen.

And as for Crist vs. Navy...you're sounding worse than Rees supporters. We lost vs. Navy because the defense sucked and Crist sucked royally. Just because he was trying really hard, doesn't mean he didn't suck. The difference between Crist and Rees is, when Rees sucks, ND still wins. The team just plays better for Rees, for whatever reason...

boom.....


you know the rest!!!

go IRISH!!!!!

 

[koonja]

I don't care whether you're talking about Tommy or Crist, let's stop using their youth/inexperience as a scapegoat for poor play.

1) Tommy was an EE his freshman year
2) He started 4 games last year plus a large amount of Tulsa.
3 We made a bowl game so he got 15 extra practices as the starting QB.
4) If you add up the half of year he got because of EE and the month of practice he got because of the bowl game, he's had a junior's equivalent of practice, plus 8 games of starting experience under his belt.
5) There have been no system changes for him, unlike Crist.

Same with Crist.

1) He did have to go through a system change and also 2 knee surgeries, but he's still a senior.

This isn't the NFL where you have 14 year careers. Both players have had adequate exposure to this offense and plenty of game-time snaps.

Using inexperience/'still learning' is an excuse at this point. The one thing that bothers me about BK is that he uses this as an excuse for the QBs.

 

[RDU Irish]

Good point kuehnja. Rees has plenty of experience and support to be successful. I think he can be above average for us if he settles down and allows more than 1.5 seconds for a play to develop before throwing it away. Oh, and work through his progressions! Pitt got in his head but he pulled it together when we needed it most. Others will try to copy Pitt D and we will see soon enough how quickly Tommy learns.

I haven't seen anyone comment on Crist throwing lasers through recievers five yards away. He has shown very little touch and that is why the drives stall so often IMO.

 

[tankjeep]

I don't care whether you're talking about Tommy or Crist, let's stop using their youth/inexperience as a scapegoat for poor play.

1) Tommy was an EE his freshman year
2) He started 4 games last year plus a large amount of Tulsa.
3 We made a bowl game so he got 15 extra practices as the starting QB.
4) If you add up the half of year he got because of EE and the month of practice he got because of the bowl game, he's had a junior's equivalent of practice, plus 8 games of starting experience under his belt.

the kid is 19 years old. growing pains is still part of his development. i've been coaching kids (different sport but the same principles apply) and it takes kids time to develop. tommy rees is no different. dayne is much older & more mature and you would think it would play in his favor. i agree, the two injuries and recovery didn't help at all in his development, but he's been in college much longer and despite the fact that he's changed systems....he should still come out on top. but crist has displayed nothing that shouts he's the man to take over the job.

rees is the man until golson/hendrix really show bk a grasp of the offense.

 

[koonja]

the kid is 19 years old. growing pains is still part of his development. i've coaching kids (different sport but the same principles apply) and it takes kids time to develop. tommy rees is no different. dayne is much older & more mature and you would think it would play in his favor. i agree, the two injuries and recovery didn't help at all in his development, but he's been in college much longer and despite the fact that he's changed systems....he should still come out on top. but crist has displayed nothing that shouts he's the man to take over the job.

rees is the man until golson/hendrix really show bk a grasp of the offense.

I didn't said anything about Crist over Rees or vice versa. Just that both of these players have plenty of experience in the system, not to mention game-time experience. Inexperience/still learning shouldn't be an excuse for poor QB-play.

Some guys don't start until their senior year. 12 games to prove what they can do.

I think Mark Sanchez had zero starts going into his senior year. I believe he was the #8 draft that year. He did that without any meaningful game-time experience. Both Crist and Rees started meaningful games last year.

Experience is not an issue for either of the QBs.

 

[tankjeep]

I didn't said anything about Crist over Rees or vice versa. Just that both of these players have plenty of experience in the system, not to mention game-time experience. Inexperience/still learning shouldn't be an excuse for poor QB-play.

I think Mark Sanchez had zero starts going into his senior year. I believe he was the #8 draft that year. He did that without any meaningful game-time experience. Both Crist and Rees started meaningful games last year.

yeah but he had time to get the offense and develop. and facing a stout defense in usc during practice does wonders in accelerating a qb's development. rees and crist were thrown to the wolves early in their careers.....that either hinders or helps there growth. you can argue both ways.

i see your point, but i still think a young kid having to player early has a disadvantage to a senior that has played against the tough defense in practice and had time to develop a better understanding of the offense. big difference.

 

[koonja]

yeah but he had time to get the offense and develop. and facing a stout defense in usc during practice does wonders in accelerating a qb's development. rees and crist were thrown to the wolves early in their careers.....that either hinders or helps there growth. you can argue both ways.

i see your point, but i still think a young kid having to player early has a disadvantage to a senior that has played against the tough defense in practice and had time to develop a better understanding of the offense. big difference.

I agree, that's why there should be no excuses for Crist, either.

I get that Tommy's 19, but there is no real substitute for meaningful game snaps, and he's had almost a year's worth of starts. Some senior's don't have that luxury and you're not going to hear a first-time starting senior's football coach say 'well he's still learning'.

It is what it is. We have below-average/average QBs right now. Don't tell me they're still learning, they've seen it all. Just strap up and play.

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

You're not looking at it from the same direction I am at all. I'm looking at it this way:

At halftime of the USF game, Crist had led the offense to exactly zero points, and once Gray fumbled, he was putrid. Just awful. I was at the game, and during the 2 hour halftime, not one fan that I talked to (and i talked to a lot) thought that Crist should go back into the game. The season was on the line, the offense looked like crap, and the team needed a jumpstart. And Rees gave them that jump start. I swear, if TJ turns his head, or if Ruffer makes that chippie, we win that game. As it was, we still scored 20 points.

So you HAVE to go with Rees vs. Michigan. You lose the team if you don't. And Rees was insane vs. Michigan...but he turned the ball over (which he MUST stop obviously). And in the end, he brings the team back on an insane late drive that should have gone down in ND history, but the defense imploded. So now, you have to stick with Rees with all the offense he's putting up.

Then he leads the team to a victory against the #15 team in the nation. You gonna pull him then?

Then he stinks it up vs. Pitt, but when the game was on the line, he was flawless, on the road. You gonna pull him now after a 2 game winning streak? Not going to happen.

And as for Crist vs. Navy...you're sounding worse than Rees supporters. We lost vs. Navy because the defense sucked and Crist sucked royally. Just because he was trying really hard, doesn't mean he didn't suck. The difference between Crist and Rees is, when Rees sucks, ND still wins. The team just plays better for Rees, for whatever reason...

So Crist should be held accountable for one half of poor football that consisted of a running back being stripped of the football around the one yard line and numerous back breaking drops. I guess it was also Crist's fault that Roddick muffed the punt as well. I guess it was Crist's fault that Turk couldn't punt for more than 30 yards that game. Yet Rees would have won that game if this and if that. We can play if this and if that until the cows come home but the issue for me is not who should be starting but that one player(Crist) is being held to a different set of standards.

If you won't bench Rees for consistently turning the ball over, who will you bench and for what? If mediocre play is acceptable for Rees, how can you demand more out of other players? It establishes a disconcerting precedent for the team.

 

[irishff1014]

You're not looking at it from the same direction I am at all. I'm looking at it this way:

At halftime of the USF game, Crist had led the offense to exactly zero points, and once Gray fumbled, he was putrid. Just awful. I was at the game, and during the 2 hour halftime, not one fan that I talked to (and i talked to a lot) thought that Crist should go back into the game. The season was on the line, the offense looked like crap, and the team needed a jumpstart. And Rees gave them that jump start. I swear, if TJ turns his head, or if Ruffer makes that chippie, we win that game. As it was, we still scored 20 points.So you HAVE to go with Rees vs. Michigan. You lose the team if you don't. And Rees was insane vs. Michigan...but he turned the ball over (which he MUST stop obviously). And in the end, he brings the team back on an insane late drive that should have gone down in ND history, but the defense imploded. So now, you have to stick with Rees with all the offense he's putting up.

Then he leads the team to a victory against the #15 team in the nation. You gonna pull him then?

Then he stinks it up vs. Pitt, but when the game was on the line, he was flawless, on the road. You gonna pull him now after a 2 game winning streak? Not going to happen.

And as for Crist vs. Navy...you're sounding worse than Rees supporters. We lost vs. Navy because the defense sucked and Crist sucked royally. Just because he was trying really hard, doesn't mean he didn't suck. The difference between Crist and Rees is, when Rees sucks, ND still wins. The team just plays better for Rees, for whatever reason...

I am really not trying to be a re hard head but if jonas doesn't fumble we might not even be talking about his at all. I still think we would be Kelly gave Crist the spotbut wanted Rees. The offense had a bad half and Crist is not even a memory here at ND.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Do know how he's actually handled Crist? You don't, do you? Aside from the change none of us know what discussions took place, what progress was to be demonstrated, and how he graded out.

Contrary to the BS that was posted tonight Crist wasn't the clear cut starter. Kelly noted when he named Crist the season starter that he and the staff found NEITHER had won the job. Kelly expounded that he and the staff had kept detailed records on drills and situational performances in practice and NEITHER one had an edge. So he picked one.

Did he flip a coin as the tie breaker? Did he opt for the "man" versus the "boy"? (Crist is 2.5 years older.) Did he chose the more mobile QB? (Well at least before 2 knee surgeries. Is Crist as mobile as Pike now? We know Rees, isn't.) Was it the 5 Stars and HS clippings? (I don't think so either.) Was it based on the rehab effort Crist put forth?

What we do know was Rees did NOT get the job based upon superior height, superior build/muscle, superior arm strength, superior foot speed, lower Interception Percentage, so ...

Why was the preseason competition a dead heat?

I've read hundreds of complaining posts by Kuehnja, Irishff1014, et al, but they can't explain other than 6-5, cannon arm, 5 Stars, upside, upside, upside, why Crist DIDN'T win the job outright with all the advantages he had. No one doubts he has superior talent. So how could there possibly be tie in all those CLOSED practices?

Basic fact at the start of the season, ND did not have clear cut starting QB. That should have been huge red flag for those forecasting not just double digit wins but even a 6-6 season. Go check the forecast threads, not just the Won/Lost record but the Yards Thrown, TDs Thrown, Floyd's and Eifert's numbers (based on Dayne's arm).

Now the same people that were talking Heisman and how we would beat USF by 5 TDs are devastastated that the season is lost.

ND started the season with two #1 QBs due to the deadheat. Twenty years ago Lou Holtz said, "If you have two #1s, you don't have a #1. You have two, #2s."

So I come back to, with all Dayne's superior talent, how could the competition be a dead heat preseason?

Could it be that there was another factor not openly discussed that leveled the playing field? Shortly after The Turning Point started posting on this site he commented on Crist's demeanor or attitude during the '10 Michigan game. He added some comments from some of his teammates. I was stunned. If you go back and look at the thread, I pressed TPO hard as I had read nothing publicaly to substantiate his comments. TPO stood firm.

Syria, you find Kelly pulling Crist at USF halftime harsh. Someone else posted yesterday that Kelly made a "panic decision". Kelly had two hours due to the weather to discuss with his OC and the rest of his staff is he desired, the decision's effect on that game, on the team, and on the season. They choose Rees. After the game Kelly noted that they had discussed that decision with both QBs. It was NOT a snap decision. I'll hazard a guess that Kelly made the preseason decision based on Crist's dogged determination during rehab, and the hope that he had overcome his shortcomings with another year of maturity. BUT they didn't see it on the field in the first half nor under the stadium during the storm delay.

And no, I wasn't there either. I believe the coaching staff thinks that Rees's turnovers can be managed (improved over time) while they didn't see that in the other situation. Kelly and staff didn't make a knee jerk reaction contrary to many here who are demanding a knee jerk reaction be made now.

Rees plays like a backup which is what he was until the other backup either went down or was sat down. But in the coaching staff's eyes he gives the team the best shot to win at this point in the season.

And as IrishJayHawk presented preseason Kelly said there were really two QBs at one level with a big difference to the next level. Look at the difficulty both Crist and Rees had in getting the play called in via the Red Army, calling the play, reading the defense, audiblizing to a new play, moving players, and getting the snap off before a whistle. Both experienced QBs have run out of time more than once. Rookies will be worse in this offense until they get up to speed.

This is a well reasoned, well thought out post. I don't disagree with anything you said. OMM, NDinLa and others have also made very good points to the same effect.

However, Kelly did choose a starter. He did it when he sent Crist in for that first series. As a player, I would want the coach to give me at least a full game. I understand why people prefer Rees, and lord knows I hope he does well, but I strongly believe that if Dayne earned the chance to start that game he damn well should have been given a chance to finish it.