Crist vs Rees

[FightingIrishLover7]

I think it is clear the both Crist and Rees are not the right QB for this system. Both have the good and the bad. Crist can run the ball but can't keep the mental focus when down. Rees can't throw the ball to the right team or hang on to it but finds a way to start fresh every series.

For me, I am concerned with the development of Hendrix. I understand Golsen is still a young lad but Hendrix has been around as long as Tommy, correct? If he really is a distance from Tommy that scares me for the future.

Tommy EEd while Andrew didn't... so Tommy has an extra spring camp under his belt.

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[Whiskeyjack]

So would it be safe to assume that going into next year Hendrix should, key word should, make a significant stride and be able to narrow the gap between him and Rees? I know we all want him or Golsen to shine now but I am thinking realistically.

Not sure about that. Kelly splits 1st team reps 60/40 between the #1 and the #2 QBs. The #3 and #4 spend a lot of time on the Scout team, which slows their development. I doubt we'll see either Hendrix or Golson seriously push for the starting job until one of them makes it into the 2-deep and starts getting 1st team reps.

 

[Merlin]

My view of the situation may not be very deep or meaningful, but simply put, Rees has, 'IT', and Crist doesn't!!!

 

[LWeis15]

All this being said I really think that Kelly made the best decision when making the switch to Rees. The worst thing that Kelly could do right now is to make another switch. That just shows you that he has no confidence in one of the most important positions on the field. By showing a lack of confidence it becomes a cascade affect and it can mess with players psyche. I am however interested about what kind of progressions the Golson has been making in practice. What does everyone think about a red shirt for Golson (sorry if it's been discussed already), because it really doesn't look like anyone else is going to be taking snaps for the Irish...

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I am however interested about what kind of progressions the Golson has been making in practice. What does everyone think about a red shirt for Golson (sorry if it's been discussed already), because it really doesn't look like anyone else is going to be taking snaps for the Irish...

Kelly has stated that there's a significant gap between Crist/ Rees and Golson/ Hendrix. Neither of the mobile QBs is seeing 1st team reps, and the time they're spending with the Scout team slows their development. As I mentioned a couple posts ago, I doubt we'll see Golson or Hendrix seriously challenge for playtime until one of them makes it into the 2-deep.

 

[LWeis15]

Right, I've heard Kelly talk about this before...just wondering if anyone knew anything else. What are your thoughts on Golson redshirting this year though? Like you said, and I feel the same way, I don't see either Hendrix or Golson getting anything but mop up duty (if we can get there).

 

[OlympiaIrishFan]

Whiskey, I don't agree with you. The pass in the endzone against Tulsa could be classified as folding. Yes he is young, but if you heap it on Dayne, you have to look at that for Tommy.

But, folding under pressure is a weird thing--Tommy has had a lot of chance to make up for mistakes or pressure situations. Being a turnover machine he has had a lot of practice with pressure situations. He create a record amout of situations (10 turnovers in 4 games) to work himself out of. Sorry 10 TO's is just not acceptable.

 

[OlympiaIrishFan]

Sorry, no mop up duty when the QB is turning the ball over at an epic rate. So, there will be no chance to mop up. Hope that changes. But, he is showing no signs of slowing down on his epic rate of TO's.

 

[irishff1014]

Right, I've heard Kelly talk about this before...just wondering if anyone knew anything else. What are your thoughts on Golson redshirting this year though? Like you said, and I feel the same way, I don't see either Hendrix or Golson getting anything but mop up duty (if we can get there).

They might red shirt Golson. That all depends if we get a GOOD QB this year. Hendrix might get mop up time if we can put a team away so far that hasn't happened. But they only Qb i see touching the field is Crist on senior day for the last offensive play and that i am not real sure about.

 

[pkt77242]

Whiskey, I don't agree with you. The pass in the endzone against Tulsa could be classified as folding. Yes he is young, but if you heap it on Dayne, you have to look at that for Tommy.

But, folding under pressure is a weird thing--Tommy has had a lot of chance to make up for mistakes or pressure situations. Being a turnover machine he has had a lot of practice with pressure situations. He create a record amout of situations (10 turnovers in 4 games) to work himself out of. Sorry 10 TO's is just not acceptable.

I believe he has 9 turnovers this year.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Whiskey, I don't agree with you. The pass in the endzone against Tulsa could be classified as folding. Yes he is young, but if you heap it on Dayne, you have to look at that for Tommy.

That's not what "folding" means. Tommy makes mistakes, but always bounces back from them (see: USC in 2010, Michigan, State, & Pitt in 2011), whereas Dayne crumbles (see: 4th quarter against State, Stanford, Navy in 2010, and 1st half against USF in 2011).

But, folding under pressure is a weird thing--Tommy has had a lot of chance to make up for mistakes or pressure situations. Being a turnover machine he has had a lot of practice with pressure situations. He create a record amout of situations (10 turnovers in 4 games) to work himself out of. Sorry 10 TO's is just not acceptable.

It's not acceptable to BK either. The problem is that both Crist and Rees will turn the ball over. Even if Crist turns it over less, he has a record of crumbling under adversity, whereas Tommy can always be counted on to shake it off and pull out a game-winning/ icing drive. That's the difference.

 

[LWeis15]

All this being said I really think that Kelly made the best decision when making the switch to Rees. The worst thing that Kelly could do right now is to make another switch. That just shows you that he has no confidence in one of the most important positions on the field. By showing a lack of confidence it becomes a cascade affect and it can mess with players psyche. I am however interested about what kind of progressions the Golson has been making in practice. What does everyone think about a red shirt for Golson (sorry if it's been discussed already), because it really doesn't look like anyone else is going to be taking snaps for the Irish...

 

[OlympiaIrishFan]

Tommy just has had many more mistakes to make for. Look at all those you have listed, Tommy did turn it over far more than Dayne did.

Then again, we all have opinions. And mine is that Dayne got yanked really fast 1/2 of one game and Tommy has been a turnover machine and still got to stay in every game.

Oh, don't forget Dayne was signed by Weis and Tommy by BK. Who do you think will get the benefit of the doubt at QB? Who has gotten the shorter leash?

 

[koonja]

Tommy just has had many more mistakes to make for. Look at all those you have listed, Tommy did turn it over far more than Dayne did.

Then again, we all have opinions. And mine is that Dayne got yanked really fast 1/2 of one game and Tommy has been a turnover machine and still got to stay in every game.

Oh, don't forget Dayne was signed by Weis and Tommy by BK. Who do you think will get the benefit of the doubt at QB? Who has gotten the shorter leash?

I swear by everything you said besides that. I don't think Kelly has that kind of ego problem.

 

[Who'saWildManNow]

All this being said I really think that Kelly made the best decision when making the switch to Rees. The worst thing that Kelly could do right now is to make another switch. That just shows you that he has no confidence in one of the most important positions on the field. By showing a lack of confidence it becomes a cascade affect and it can mess with players psyche. I am however interested about what kind of progressions the Golson has been making in practice. What does everyone think about a red shirt for Golson (sorry if it's been discussed already), because it really doesn't look like anyone else is going to be taking snaps for the Irish...

I just like how you called him "The Golson". It may have been a typo but it's sticking with me.

I think he'll be set up for a 5th year, no doubt. It gives him the chance to add size, playbook knowledge and get the overall feeling of a football season (traveling, preparing, supporting teammates) under his belt.

Next year he'll have his oppurtunity to step up.. But it will be ultimately up to him. He get's nothing just because he fits BKs scheme on paper and can run.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Tommy just has had many more mistakes to make for. Look at all those you have listed, Tommy did turn it over far more than Dayne did.

It's not simply about who makes less mistakes. Mental toughness is a prerequisite quality for playing QB, and Dayne doesn't have it. When we get out to an early lead and things go smoothly, Dayne is a better QB; but you can't bet on that. When things go wrong, Dayne simply can't be counted on to provide leadership and shrug off his mistakes, even if he makes fewer of them.

Oh, don't forget Dayne was signed by Weis and Tommy by BK. Who do you think will get the benefit of the doubt at QB? Who has gotten the shorter leash?

I wouldn't say that distinction is meaningful. Rees was initially a Weis recruit that Kelly kept in the fold because he had to salvage the 2010 class after Weis' firing. There's no way Kelly would have recruited Rees under normal circumstances.

 

[OlympiaIrishFan]

I can understand that, do you think he will give his guy more rope or not? I think he may.

Then again, we all just want to win. If we won all four and the stats were the same this probably isn't an issue.

Anyhow, as it is I am just sick of Tommy's turnovers. I like the kid, I love that he is Irish. Just sick of the turnovers, and standing at 2-2.

 

[LWeis15]

hahaha, yes definite typo...but you're right it's growing on me now

 

[OlympiaIrishFan]

whiskey, I have to do some research. I don't believe Tommy was recruited by Weis. Can't say for sure, but I don't believe so. I know Andrew was though. I don't think Tommy was. I'll will research.

 

[koonja]

Remember when we could just waste our time arguing about recruits and what stars meant?

Those were the good old days...

 

[Whiskeyjack]

whiskey, I have to do some research. I don't believe Tommy was recruited by Weis. Can't say for sure, but I don't believe so. I know Andrew was though. I don't think Tommy was. I'll will research.

From an article in Tommy's home town paper:

Before Rees even arrived in South Bend, he was forced to acclimate himself with a new coaching staff. The coach who recruited him, Charlie Weis, had been fired the previous December. Brian Kelly had been hired from Cincinnati to replace him. Kelly and Rees hit it off immediately in a home visit right before Christmas.

Golson is the only "Kelly" QB on the roster.

 

[Nothingman]

Whiskey, I don't agree with you. The pass in the endzone against Tulsa could be classified as folding. Yes he is young, but if you heap it on Dayne, you have to look at that for Tommy.

But, folding under pressure is a weird thing--Tommy has had a lot of chance to make up for mistakes or pressure situations. Being a turnover machine he has had a lot of practice with pressure situations. He create a record amout of situations (10 turnovers in 4 games) to work himself out of. Sorry 10 TO's is just not acceptable.

I think this is a very good point to make about this season. Tommy's first half against Pitt was just as bad if not worse than Crist's USF half. However, Tommy was given the chance to finish what he started and ultimately we won. What irks me is that Crist was not given the same opportunity. Maybe we beat USF with Crist playing the whole game or maybe we don't, we will never know because he was given only 15 passes.

One more random thought to add. I thought it was ironic how Jonas bailed Tommy out by making a brilliant touchdown run to put points on the board while he hurt Crist by fumbling on the 1 and taking points off the board.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I think this is a very good point to make about this season. Tommy's first half against Pitt was just as bad if not worse than Crist's USF half. However, Tommy was given the chance to finish what he started and ultimately we won. What irks me is that Crist was not given the same opportunity. Maybe we beat USF with Crist playing the whole game or maybe we don't, we will never know because he was given only 15 passes.

Crist wasn't given the same opportunity because Kelly saw him crumbling, just as he crumbled against MSU (4th quarter), Stanford, and Navy previously. I'm sure you've read about Dayne's "deer in the headlights" look when things start going badly, and he had that look after his INT against USF. Everything goes downhill once that happens.

Kelly thought the game was still within reach, so he pulled the broken QB in favor of one who could give us a chance. And Rees did exactly that.

One more random thought to add. I thought it was strange how Jonas bailed Tommy out by making a brilliant touchdown run to put points on the board while he comdemned Crist by fumbling on the 1 and taking points off the board.

First, Jonas' "fumble" occurred after being stood up by 3 USF defenders and stripped by the 4th when the refs should have blown the play stopped due to forward progress. Second, any implication that Jonas intentionally threw Crist under the bus is outrageous.

 

[IrishOldFart]

I am not much of a fan for either Crist or Rees for the many reasons that have already been posted, but if I had to choose I would probably go with Rees. I know Rees isn't a running threat, but he needs to run the ball at least twice a game just to keep the defense honest.

 

[BobD]

I think this is a very good point to make about this season. Tommy's first half against Pitt was just as bad if not worse than Crist's USF half. However, Tommy was given the chance to finish what he started and ultimately we won. What irks me is that Crist was not given the same opportunity. Maybe we beat USF with Crist playing the whole game or maybe we don't, we will never know because he was given only 15 passes.

One more random thought to add. I thought it was strange how Jonas bailed Tommy out by making a brilliant touchdown run to put points on the board while he comdemned Crist by fumbling on the 1 and taking points off the board.

While there was some poor execution in the first half, I think there is room for an argument that USF was better prepared for us, than we were for them. That would fall on the coach and Dayne should have been given a chance to redeem himself at least for the first half the following week. When someone fails, their leader has to man up and share the blame. Right now we have two outstanding young men, both are not playing up to expectations....the one thing they have in common is their coach.

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

Yep very serious. A little looking over your shoulder is good but wondering if eberytime you make a mistake you will get yanked is terrible. It is bad for the QB and for the team. We talk about the QB as the leader of the offense and you can't keep rotating your leader. That usually leads to the team failing as they try to adjust to the change and then ultimately leads to them not having faith in their QB, which is when it all goes to ****.

Forgive me if I am not a subscriber to that theory. What you describe is a borderline entitlement. If you are the leader, you have to perform at a high level. For too long we have accepted mediocre performance from our "leaders". If you are not getting the job done, coach's job is to put somebody in who can get it done. I don't have any problems with Crist being benched; but if that is the standard that Kelly set, Rees should also have a seat on the bench.

 

[Nothingman]

Crist wasn't given the same opportunity because Kelly saw him crumbling, just as he crumbled against MSU (4th quarter), Stanford, and Navy previously. I'm sure you've read about Dayne's "deer in the headlights" look when things start going badly, and he had that look after his INT against USF. Everything goes downhill once that happens.

Kelly thought the game was still within reach, so he pulled the broken QB in favor of one who could give us a chance. And Rees did exactly that.



First, Jonas' "fumble" occurred after being stood up by 3 USF defenders and stripped by the 4th when the refs should have blown the play stopped due to forward progress. Second, any implication that Jonas intentionally threw Crist under the bus is outrageous.

My comments were restricted to THIS season. Dayne was given 15 passes before being yanked. I felt he should have been able to finish what he started. This is a new season and he may have responded well, but we will never know. If he had come out and continued to struggle in the third quarter then yes bench him. In my opinion though 15 passes isn't a fair shake. Again that's just my personal opinion about this season so far.

As for Jonas you have misunderstood me. Condemn is too strong a word and I apologize for using it. I never believed that Jonas intentionally fumbled and I would never suggest something like that about any player on any team. As you say that is outrageous and ridiculous. I do believe however that the fumble, while unintentional, did contribute to Crist no longer being the starter while the long TD run helped to keep Tommy in the starter's spot. If we had gone in at halftime with no points on the board I believe that Tommy would have got the hook. I was simply noting that it was the same player involved in both plays.

 

[Old Man Mike]

wow...seven more pages of this since I left this morning to take care of Mom....must be a new form of "mental" exercise.

well, as they say: no pain, no gain.

 

[JFKIRISH]

forgot to add....
I truly believe that dayne was destined to fail. What i mean by this is how he was recruited by Weis, was coached half his career by Weis people. He then had to unlearn that system and relearn a new system. he basically had to reboot his brain and forget almsot everything he learned from the previous 2 years. tommy on the other hand came in with a clean slate essentially. so instead of trying to unlearn a system he simply learned the new one. I truly believe that is why tommy has put up better numbers, sucks for dayne but that is the downside of college football and the coaching carousel.

Unfortunately I do not think DC or TR will lead ND to the promise land. Stanford will be the BC game for the Irish and with Rees pentcant for fumbles and ITs I, sadly, don't see him being the MAN.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Whiskey, I don't agree with you. The pass in the endzone against Tulsa could be classified as folding. Yes he is young, but if you heap it on Dayne, you have to look at that for Tommy.

But, folding under pressure is a weird thing--Tommy has had a lot of chance to make up for mistakes or pressure situations. Being a turnover machine he has had a lot of practice with pressure situations. He create a record amout of situations (10 turnovers in 4 games) to work himself out of. Sorry 10 TO's is just not acceptable.

You are absolutely right, 10 TO's is absolutely unacceptable. But he's winning. I know it bugs people but it's painfully obvious to many of us that Crist folds when the chips are down. And Rees, when the chips are down (even if they may be down through his own doing), steps up. He just does. Take out the anomaly for both Crist and Rees (Crist vs. Michigan, Rees vs. Tulsa), and you have Crist folding when the going gets tough and Rees responding when in tough situations.

And if you don't believe me, look at these stats for Rees in the 4th quarter this year:

4th quarter - 35/44 (80%) for 338 yards 3 TD, 1 INT, 162 QB rating.

Those numbers are sick! And they point to what I am saying about him.

The kid, for better or worse, is our starter. And I'm going to support him because that's what I feel I should do as a fan and because I also believe he's the best we have at this time. (I know you most of you guys support him even thugh you don't agree with the decision.)