College Basketball - FBI investigation

[ab2cmiller]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Thought provoking reporting by Forde and Thamel on FBI investigation. One thing is certain, the NCAA will play all of its games. Billions are changing hands. <a href="https://t.co/lyFTzKxmVD">https://t.co/lyFTzKxmVD</a></p>— Jay Bilas (@JayBilas) <a href="https://twitter.com/JayBilas/status/966671511418490881?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 22, 2018</a></blockquote>
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Some info from "sources" are leaking out.

“There are spreadsheets detailing who got paid, how much they got paid and how much more they were planning to pay,” said a source familiar with the investigation. “The feds got everything they wanted and much more. Don’t think it will only be players who ended up signing with ASM that got paid. Those spreadsheets cast a wide net throughout college basketball. If your school produced a first-round pick in the past three years, be worried.”

So how deep did Miller’s operation go? One source with knowledge of the investigation estimated that ASM Sports was paying more than three times as many prospects, and families of prospects, as clients they signed. The impact on the NCAA landscape is expected to be significant. No one is certain if the federal government is targeting other NBA agents amid the competitive landscape, but it is widely believed within the sport that Miller was far from the only agent operating in this manner.

 

[IrishLion]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/exclus...g-high-profile-players-schools-103338484.html

So many blue bloods and big names with hard evidence of players with amateurism issues... some guys got free flights and meals from agents, some were straight up on an advance salary.

UK, UNC, Duke, MSU, USC are the big ones, but even schools like ND, Xavier, Seton Hall, and Wichita State had players taking benefits from agents. ND’s Demetrius Jackson got a free meal from an agent... gonna have to look harder at the documents pictured in the article to see the “when” of some this. If it’s after competition concluded, maybe it won’t be so bad? Idk.

This is gonna be a looooooong process, and I bet the NCAA refuses to touch it in the end, fully displaying their hypocrisy after how they handled the recent ND and Louisville violations after not doing shit to UNC.

 

[IrishLion]

On second thought, I can only imagine the NCAA is going to absolutely crush ND three years from now because Demetrius Jackson got a free meal according to a note on a spreadsheet... but UNC, Duke and Kentucky will skate free and clear, even though they have/had dudes earning legit salaries while in college.

 

[Irish YJ]

Would love to see them blow up some of the "clean" programs that we know aren't clean.... and would love to see them blow the whole 1 and done BS out of the water. I can't believe this has not bled over into college football.

 

[IrishLion]

Would love to see them blow up some of the "clean" programs that we know aren't clean.... and would love to see them blow the whole 1 and done BS out of the water. I can't believe this has not bled over into college football.

Oh it IS this prevalent in college football. There is just a much more clean system of cash payments changing hands, and *legal* sales of products at discounted rates. There isn't a paper trail usually. But if there is, it's very hard to prove the illegal benefit by the letter of the law.

All those Alabama players are driving nice cars as gifts from boosters... but the boosters are simply "selling" the cars to players are "reasonable" prices. If anyone starts looking into things and it seems like the IRS might come calling about players or their families driving cars they shouldn't be able to afford, the "sale" is suddenly an extended "rental."

The other thing is that football's shady stuff goes down with boosters who have a vested interest in keeping everything 100% on lockdown. Basketball, on the other hand, is riddled with agents that are more reckless, because they don't care about the schools.

You'd probably never find a booster at Alabama with a spreadsheet of what he's paying kids for "loans," nor would you find a schedule book with dates/names/prices on dinners on his desk.

Agents in basketball track all of that shit, because it's all business expenses to them. They have no loyalty, and no qualms with taking care of themselves.

 

[Irish YJ]

Oh it IS this prevalent in college football. There is just a much more clean system of cash payments changing hands, and *legal* sales of products at discounted rates. There isn't a paper trail usually. But if there is, it's very hard to prove the illegal benefit by the letter of the law.

All those Alabama players are driving nice cars as gifts from boosters... but the boosters are simply "selling" the cars to players are "reasonable" prices. If anyone starts looking into things and it seems like the IRS might come calling about players or their families driving cars they shouldn't be able to afford, the "sale" is suddenly an extended "rental."

The other thing is that football's shady stuff goes down with boosters who have a vested interest in keeping everything 100% on lockdown. Basketball, on the other hand, is riddled with agents that are more reckless, because they don't care about the schools.

You'd probably never find a booster at Alabama with a spreadsheet of what he's paying kids for "loans," nor would you find a schedule book with dates/names/prices on dinners on his desk.

Agents in basketball track all of that shit, because it's all business expenses to them. They have no loyalty, and no qualms with taking care of themselves.

i get what you are saying (and agree its different), but there are agents in CFB too, and I don't think they are clean. Wherever their is money, agents are doing shady shit IMO. BB is just easier to go after being there's less players, and the whole AAU and sponsorship components are more visible.

 

[NDohio]

Why do you do expense reports for illegal activity?

Is it just me or is it that most of the names that are on this list are players that did NOT sign with their agency? Where are all the names of players that actually did sign with ASM?

Any school that has a lot of one and done kids should be concerned about this. Those players don't care about school or the free education and have no real connection with the team. They are only playing college basketball 'cause they have to. Why not take money? The risk/reward factor is basically zero risk and $$$ reward. By the time anyone can catch up to them getting benefits, that are against NCAA rules, they'll be in the NBA.

 

[zelezo vlk]

On second thought, I can only imagine the NCAA is going to absolutely crush ND three years from now because Demetrius Jackson got a free meal according to a note on a spreadsheet... but UNC, Duke and Kentucky will skate free and clear, even though they have/had dudes earning legit salaries while in college.

Oh yeah, ND's getting the death penalty over this

 

[irishfan]

DJ met with agent after he declared per Brey.

Can’t embed now, but on Tom Noie’s Twitter.

 

[ab2cmiller]

I guess I anticipated mostly direct payments in an attempt to buy the athletes. The yahoo report seems to indicate most of the payments were loans and included repayment schedules.

 

[Irish#1]

I guess I anticipated mostly direct payments in an attempt to buy the athletes. The yahoo report seems to indicate most of the payments were loans and included repayment schedules.

Loans are still illegal. Kid signs with a different agent, then they write it off as a bad debt and get a little relief when filing taxes.

The only way they will get this to stop, is for the Feds to make it a felony to offer/accept meals, trips or loans until they leave college. Parents will have to be included in that while their kid is in college.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Oh it IS this prevalent in college football. There is just a much more clean system of cash payments changing hands, and *legal* sales of products at discounted rates. There isn't a paper trail usually. But if there is, it's very hard to prove the illegal benefit by the letter of the law.

All those Alabama players are driving nice cars as gifts from boosters... but the boosters are simply "selling" the cars to players are "reasonable" prices. If anyone starts looking into things and it seems like the IRS might come calling about players or their families driving cars they shouldn't be able to afford, the "sale" is suddenly an extended "rental."

The other thing is that football's shady stuff goes down with boosters who have a vested interest in keeping everything 100% on lockdown. Basketball, on the other hand, is riddled with agents that are more reckless, because they don't care about the schools.

You'd probably never find a booster at Alabama with a spreadsheet of what he's paying kids for "loans," nor would you find a schedule book with dates/names/prices on dinners on his desk.

Agents in basketball track all of that shit, because it's all business expenses to them. They have no loyalty, and no qualms with taking care of themselves.

The stipend players receive today can easily buy a nice car. Especially when the player receives a nice discount. That type of thing can be a very difficult to prove. The car issue isn't anything the NCAA or the IRS could come close to touching when done effectively.

Bag men do not keep records of any transactions they make. Furthermore, there is only a handful of people who even know who a bagman is. And that's typically other bagmen. So finding a person with detailed records of any sort of payment or benefit is next to impossible. Remember, the bagman's job is not to hide a benefit, only to make sure the benefit can't be traced. There will be no paper trail.

As far as DJ and ND is concerned, receiving a benefit less than $200 is really not a big deal to the NCAA as long as the player donates $200 to the charity of their choice given one condition. If the player played in games after the school found out about the benefit, then the NCAA would have an issue. If the school finds out and the player donates the $200 to charity immediately without playing in a game then both the school and the player are clear. It appears that in DJ's case, he met with an agent after the season so the above would not apply to him. For goodness sake, hopefully Jenkins will not offer up to vacate wins again.

Loans to players is also tricky. If the loan was made after the season and the player leaves for the draft the NCAA will probably view that as something entirely different as a loan made to a player while still competing in games at the school. But we have seen just how stupid the NCAA can be so who really knows what they will do.

 

[STLDomer]

That report showed absolutely nothing. It does not prove the players took the money and it certainly does not prove the schools did anything. Most of it implies players taking the money well after they were already at school, certainly not during the recruiting process.

 

[Woneone]

Good to see guys like Jay Bilas jumping on their soapbox again how changes need to be made to benefit the players. He conveniently always seems to leave out how those changes would benefit his employer, or the media at large. Guys like Gary Parrish and Matt Norlander are always talking about how the reason they cover things like Kentucky on a regular basis is due to the number of clicks they get. How much better for them would it be if those top-tier schools, that can afford to go out and pay everyone, would be the only teams that ever were able to compete in that type of market. All that money they pay for rights would be really worth it then.

I also love the “if you don’t want this to happen, just get rid of the rule” arguments. No, don’t expect people to abide by them, just get rid of them. What a novel concept. It makes so much sense. Want to get rid of gun related crimes? Just get rid of gun related laws. Murder would go down to zero if the concept of murder didn’t actually exist. Want people to stop getting caught cheating on their taxes? Just eliminate all the tax laws. Problem solved.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

and boom goes the Dynamite.

Arizona's coach caught on wiretaps talking about payments to players. It's all going to crumble.

Check out ESPN front page

 

[STLDomer]

and boom goes the Dynamite.

Arizona's coach caught on wiretaps talking about payments to players. It's all going to crumble.

Check out ESPN front page

Wow they caught the coach everyone knew was cheating. Not going to crumble until someone real goes down. This was a layup.

 

[irishfan]

Arizona is the easiest program to slam. College basketball isn’t impacted at all if Zona exists or not. Hope there is a lot more to come.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

IU sweating with Archie Miller?

His brother couldn't get the job done, and has been cheating out of his ass.

 

[Irish2155]

IU sweating with Archie Miller?

His brother couldn't get the job done, and has been cheating out of his ass.

As an IU basketball fan, I'm sweating a little bit...

 

[Irish YJ]

IU sweating with Archie Miller?

His brother couldn't get the job done, and has been cheating out of his ass.

As and IU BB fan..... Based on what we know now, not that worried. Archie was gone from AZ and in Dayton before any of the shit at AZ went down. While stuff could have happened at Dayton, it's not the center of the basketball universe that would attract agents, so I think the likelihood of Archie doing something post 2011 if minimal. But you never know.

The whole Bowen thing though is interesting. Chuck Martin (then assistant under Crean) was named as being in contact with ASM along with an asst coach from MichSt. ASM wanted contracts with Oladepo and Anunobey in exchange for steering Bowen. Neither one signed, and Bowen ended up at Louisville (where he got 100k). Now Bowen is playing for SCar and Martin is coaching. Doesn't seem like IU is in harm's way on this as they didn't get Bowen or have players sign with ASM, but Martin looks pretty damn guilty.

Hoping Archie is clean. I like what he's done so far. Given what he inherited and with what he's trying to do (go D), we definitely saw progress over the year. He's got a few good kids and once he has some of his own, I like IU's chances to compete in B10.

 

[BobbyMac]

Good to see guys like Jay Bilas jumping on their soapbox again how changes need to be made to benefit the players. He conveniently always seems to leave out how those changes would benefit his employer, or the media at large. Guys like Gary Parrish and Matt Norlander are always talking about how the reason they cover things like Kentucky on a regular basis is due to the number of clicks they get. How much better for them would it be if those top-tier schools, that can afford to go out and pay everyone, would be the only teams that ever were able to compete in that type of market. All that money they pay for rights would be really worth it then.

I also love the “if you don’t want this to happen, just get rid of the rule” arguments. No, don’t expect people to abide by them, just get rid of them. What a novel concept. It makes so much sense. Want to get rid of gun related crimes? Just get rid of gun related laws. Murder would go down to zero if the concept of murder didn’t actually exist. Want people to stop getting caught cheating on their taxes? Just eliminate all the tax laws. Problem solved.

Horrible analogy

Arizona is the easiest program to slam. College basketball isn’t impacted at all if Zona exists or not. Hope there is a lot more to come.

Yeah, slamming a Top 5-10 program going back to Lute's arrival is non-impactful.

IU sweating with Archie Miller?

His brother couldn't get the job done, and has been cheating out of his ass.

Couldn't get the job done? Who's won more games this decade? Self, Few, Calipari, maybe Greg Marshall? Come on man.

 

[Woneone]

Since you went into such depth to explain why, I guess it’s true.

The logic can be extended to nearly any rule or law on the books, for any association or institution. The extreme nature was to highlight the flawed nature of the logic. If you don’t like those, go with bribery laws and littering. Or jaywalking. Or open container laws. Or religious tenets. Or trade association by-laws. The expectation of following the rules is a pretty low bar to be allowed into those institutions. Break a rule, get punished, whether the rule is foolish or not.

I was going to say “horrible post”, but I’ll assume your objecting to the extreme nature, not the substance. But since you gave such in depth reasoning, forgive me for not following.

 

[Irish2155]

As and IU BB fan..... Based on what we know now, not that worried. Archie was gone from AZ and in Dayton before any of the shit at AZ went down. While stuff could have happened at Dayton, it's not the center of the basketball universe that would attract agents, so I think the likelihood of Archie doing something post 2011 if minimal. But you never know.

The whole Bowen thing though is interesting. Chuck Martin (then assistant under Crean) was named as being in contact with ASM along with an asst coach from MichSt. ASM wanted contracts with Oladepo and Anunobey in exchange for steering Bowen. Neither one signed, and Bowen ended up at Louisville (where he got 100k). Now Bowen is playing for SCar and Martin is coaching. Doesn't seem like IU is in harm's way on this as they didn't get Bowen or have players sign with ASM, but Martin looks pretty damn guilty.

Hoping Archie is clean. I like what he's done so far. Given what he inherited and with what he's trying to do (go D), we definitely saw progress over the year. He's got a few good kids and once he has some of his own, I like IU's chances to compete in B10.

Completely agree.

 

[Irish YJ]

Completely agree.

You never know truly what people are capable of, but Archie doesn't seem like a cut-corners type of person to me. Could be wrong, but that's my vibe.

I'm a little concerned with the assistants though. Both Schilling and Flint or of the Calipari tree. And I think it's Schilling who has pretty deep ties to Adidias Nations.

 

[irish4ever]

As an IU basketball fan, I'm sweating a little bit...

Sorry, but f**k IU! If any ties ... take 'em down!

 

[Irish2155]

You never know truly what people are capable of, but Archie doesn't seem like a cut-corners type of person to me. Could be wrong, but that's my vibe.

I'm a little concerned with the assistants though. Both Schilling and Flint or of the Calipari tree. And I think it's Schilling who has pretty deep ties to Adidias Nations.

You think anyone is floating Romeo cash??? That dude is a bad boy.

 

[Irish2155]

Sorry, but f**k IU! If any ties ... take 'em down!

fuck you, not sorry.

 

[ab2cmiller]

LOL at this old Bilas tweet. Everyone should know, no matter how well you think someone, you can never be absolutely sure of what they are capable of.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">No, it is not. I know Sean Miller to be a man of great honesty and integrity. I don't believe for a second he knew of any improper behavior.</p>— Jay Bilas (@JayBilas) <a href="https://twitter.com/JayBilas/status/913498342751178752?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 28, 2017</a></blockquote>
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[Irish YJ]

You think anyone is floating Romeo cash??? That dude is a bad boy.

I'm sure he's been approached by someone from somewhere. Being that Vandy has been a major player I don't think he's about the dolla dolla bill yo. Had offers from every blue blood program and lives right over the border from Louisville. I'd think if he were that kind of kid we would have seen him all over the NC, Duke, KY, Ville, KS, and other offers. But you never know. KS is fading and it looks to be a Vandy/IU contest. High education institute vs in-state institute doesn't scream obvious crap to me. Wade Baldwin's name from Vandy was tied to the probe. Doesn't appear that he was steered to Vandy, just that he was approached on his way out. If Archie gets Romeo clean, IU will be an instant threat in the B10.

 

[BobbyMac]

You never know truly what people are capable of, but Archie doesn't seem like a cut-corners type of person to me. Could be wrong, but that's my vibe.

I'm a little concerned with the assistants though. Both Schilling and Flint or of the Calipari tree. And I think it's Schilling who has pretty deep ties to Adidias Nations.

If IU skirted the death penalty under Sampson and the Import DMV era of Tom Crean, they'll be fine with Eddie. He's the straightest laced guy I know.