BVG Fired

[RDU Irish]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Brian Kelly on Brian VanGorder: “He’s coaching his butt off."</p>— BlueandGold.com (@BGInews) <a href="https://twitter.com/BGInews/status/778271409776816132">September 20, 2016</a></blockquote>
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Mixing metaphors BK - you mean "out of his ass"

Might want to sleep on that one another night.

 

[Wingman Ray]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Brian Kelly on Brian VanGorder: “He’s coaching his butt off."</p>— BlueandGold.com (@BGInews) <a href="https://twitter.com/BGInews/status/778271409776816132">September 20, 2016</a></blockquote>
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So BK is basically saying the ND students on defense are not very smart people and cant figure out a scheme that every OC that has played ND has? Seems he is saying it isnt BVG's fault but the players who were 4 stars.

 

[koonja]

Did anyone read all of the BK press conference texts? I may have missed some, but the overall tone I came away with was subtly saying the players need to play better. Which is not what I want to hear.

 

[stlnd01]

No wonder the defense can't play. He must come up with one play for every possible offensive play. That may work in the NFL where you have guys for a longer period of time, but when your kids are there 3-4 years, it's going to take that long to learn and remember those defenses.

Ironically the average tenure of an NFL player is probably shorter than college. They're not spending 3-4 years learning a team's defense.
But they are learning it full-time. It's their job. They can be fired if they don't get it. And they presumably have a better grasp of fundamentals and mechanics than your typical 19-year-old. So I completely agree with the broader point that NFL schemes are probably counter-productive for most college programs. Especially on defense.
TBH after BVG and Weis I'd be very careful about hiring coaches from the NFL. It's such a different job. Heistand seems to manage it but many don't work out.

 

[irishff1014]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Brian Kelly on Brian VanGorder: “He’s coaching his butt off."</p>— BlueandGold.com (@BGInews) <a href="https://twitter.com/BGInews/status/778271409776816132">September 20, 2016</a></blockquote>
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He may be but he just isn't good.

 

[GrangerIrish24]

Did anyone read all of the BK press conference texts? I may have missed some, but the overall tone I came away with was subtly saying the players need to play better. Which is not what I want to hear.

I listened to it and didnt come away feeling that at all.

 

[koonja]

I listened to it and didnt come away feeling that at all.

Really? Off of the top of my head...

Kizer needs to play with urgency.
Tillers needs to focus on foothball.
Players need to be under control when tackling.
Captains should be our best foot all players but are not.
I'm missing more but still.

How about I need to call a better offensive game, our defensive coaching is abysmal, and we don't teach not fumbling.

How many coaches did he blame?

 

[Irish Insanity]

Really? Off of the top of my head...

Kizer needs to play with urgency.
Tillers needs to focus on foothball.
Players need to be under control when tackling.
Captains should be our best foot all players but are not.
I'm missing more but still.

How about I need to call a better offensive game, our defensive coaching is abysmal, and we don't teach not fumbling.

How many coaches did he blame?

Some people in life have a hard time shouldering responsibility. BK is one of them.

 

[NDRock]

Watch when Kelly tries to communicate with him. BVG never looks at him or acknowledges him. I think we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg. Kelly has some major issues and it is infected the entire hierarchy.

You may be right but the only time I've seen him yell at BVG is when the defense is still on the field and he's still trying to signal in calls.

 

[GrangerIrish24]

Really? Off of the top of my head...

Kizer needs to play with urgency.
Tillers needs to focus on foothball.
Players need to be under control when tackling.
Captains should be our best foot all players but are not.
I'm missing more but still.

How about I need to call a better offensive game, our defensive coaching is abysmal, and we don't teach not fumbling.

How many coaches did he blame?

Yeah, dont really see anything wrong with this. Hes spot on with those assessments. He took ownership on Saturday and Sunday. He said what needed to be said. I recommend listening to it.

 

[koonja]

Yeah, dont really see anything wrong with this. Hes spot on with those assessments. He took ownership on Saturday and Sunday. He said what needed to be said. I recommend listening to it.

That's fine that you don't, but I do when it starts at the top and the coaching has been subpar.

 

[IrishLion]

Really? Off of the top of my head...

Kizer needs to play with urgency.
Tillers needs to focus on foothball.
Players need to be under control when tackling.
Captains should be our best foot all players but are not.
I'm missing more but still.

How about I need to call a better offensive game, our defensive coaching is abysmal, and we don't teach not fumbling.

How many coaches did he blame?

Those were all comments that were answers to direct questions. He blamed plenty of problems on things that need to be coached better, as well.

 

[GrangerIrish24]

That's fine that you don't, but I do when it starts at the top and the coaching has been subpar.

And the first thing he did on Saturday night and Sunday afternoon was blame himself. He really didn't do that today because no one questioned him on who's fault this is. What do you expect him to say " I am an awful coach and I hate Brian Van Gorder"?

 

[IrishLion]

On a related note to be above post in response to Koon, let's all remember that there is context every time BK says something.

If he's highlighting things that players need to improve upon, it's not some random and targeted criticism to place the blame at their feet. He's usually answering questions that have been asked about specific players.

When he was asked about defensive short-comings, he didn't say anything about the players directly. He talked about how coaching needs to be better first and foremost.

When he said the captains need to play better, it was because he was asked specifically about the captains and their level of play; the same was true of his comments on Kizer and Tillery, in that he was asked directly about what they need to do or have done better.

 

[MNIrishman]

Some people in life have a hard time shouldering responsibility. BK is one of them.

From a psychological standpoint for the players, what is to be gained by BK telling the media, "All my fault, players dig everything they could, don't need to get better. I blew it."

 

[Booslum31]

I can definitely see that in BVG. Here you have a DC that doesnt recruit. How do you recruit defensive players and your DC who is calling the defense doesnt recruit? Seems like BVG has a list of my way of doing things that one may be able to accept if he produced winning defenses, not this rag of a middle school defense that ND has now.

The problem is that he doesn't recruit because he CAN'T recruit. He doesn't connect with the kids.

 

[phgreek]

The players do need to execute the things in their control better...

Tackling is a thing they can control. Penalties are a thing they can control. Communicating is something they can control. Do those things and this team has 3 wins.

I hope no one thinks the players are off the hook here...Had I missed ONE of the multitude of tackles I saw missed on 3rd down alone...I'd have lost my gord. Some guys have done it Multiple times. You cannot allow yourself to be that guy...

I know coaches should recognize poor tackling and demand it gets right before the team even leaves training camp...but tackling is something they've been doing since they were 8. They can own much of that debacle.

Penalties have stung them...and cost them points. They own that.

They don't seem to communicate well. The muffed punt contact turnover...that should never happen...but you gotta talk back there. They can own that.

Players need to play better...coaches need to coach better...just like the man said.

 

[Andy in Sactown]

I believe Coach Kelly is the right guy for the job. But I have to believe BVG needs to go and his successor needs to be the decision maker on the defensive staff.

And in addition, and I do really hate to agree with Koon, Longo needs to go. We need a modern strength and conditioning program. Facilities as well as personnel.

If Brian isn't willing, Jack needs to step in. We're not "a snap away". We're consistently playing 4 quarters of terrible defense.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

"Coach Kelly, your defense is ranked 102 in the country. How is it possible that a much younger Ohio St defense with a brand new DC is embarrassing their opponents and yours still looks like a kindergarten fire drill"?

 

[IrishinTN]

"Coach Kelly, your defense is ranked 102 in the country. How is it possible that a much younger Ohio St defense with a brand new DC is embarrassing their opponents and yours still looks like a kindergarten fire drill"?

You really think its that organized?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

You really think its that organized?

Ha! BvG at practice:

 

[IrishBroker]

I believe Coach Kelly is the right guy for the job. But I have to believe BVG needs to go and his successor needs to be the decision maker on the defensive staff.

And in addition, and I do really hate to agree with Koon, Longo needs to go. We need a modern strength and conditioning program. Facilities as well as personnel.

If Brian isn't willing, Jack needs to step in. We're not "a snap away". We're consistently playing 4 quarters of terrible defense.

Thank you. Anyone that believes that statement is just crazy.

 

[IrishBroker]

"Coach Kelly, your defense is ranked 102 in the country. How is it possible that a much younger Ohio St defense with a brand new DC is embarrassing their opponents and yours still looks like a kindergarten fire drill"?

Doesn't matter, BVG is coaching his butt off

 

[CraigKrenzel]

He may be but he just isn't good.

It does seem like faint praise. Give me a headset and I can coach my butt off too, but that won't make a lick of difference either.

 

[WestCoast]

I know coaches should recognize poor tackling and demand it gets right before the team even leaves training camp...but tackling is something they've been doing since they were 8. They can own much of that debacle.

I respectfully disagree and believe this is wrong to put on the players unless the coaching staff has taught it properly. By "properly" I don't mean telling them the right technique a handful of times. Proper teaching requires 1) consistently using simple, easy to understand explanations/descriptions, 2) showing/demonstrating an appropriate number of times, and 3) getting the players to do it perfectly the appropriate number of reps in live settings.

This was one of Charlie Weis' faults before the 2007 season with regard to the offensive line. Reports that came out later were that CW had the offense doing drills at 50% speed, with little to no live contact (basically the way NFL walk throughs look like). CW assumed the players were college players and could do the physical stuff if they understood the mental stuff. (He was also dealing with depleted depth, so I think there were injury concerns if they went 100% and someone got hurt.) This hurt not only the offensive line, but had a ripple affect on the defense as the tacklers rarely practiced tackling to the ground at game speed.

The problem is the players were not yet ready for full college level game speed. They hadn't handled enough reps at full speed to have developed proper technique or the muscle memory. You have to learn how to do something at game speed, and do it repeatedly so the mind doesn't have to think about getting the body to do it right.

Maybe the top 5-10 guys in their junior or senior seasons could practice at less than full speed and still be prepared for games. But not the majority and not young players.

There was a highlight from the last game where at least 5 different players came up to make a hit and missed as the player turned laterally and the defender spun around like a helicopter because they were in the wrong position and took the wrong angle. They all did it the same because the coaching staff failed to teach them how to do it properly at game speed.

Reports are now coming out that the majority of camp and fall was spent on schemes and not fundamentals. It's fitting, then, that one commentator compared CW's triple option experiment against GT in the 2007 opener to BVG's 3-3-5 experiment against Texas. Both were failures and both emphasized scheme over fundamental execution.

 

[phgreek]

I respectfully disagree and believe this is wrong to put on the players unless the coaching staff has taught it properly. By "properly" I don't mean telling them the right technique a handful of times. Proper teaching requires 1) consistently using simple, easy to understand explanations/descriptions, 2) showing/demonstrating an appropriate number of times, and 3) getting the players to do it perfectly the appropriate number of reps in live settings.

This was one of Charlie Weis' faults before the 2007 season with regard to the offensive line. The reports that came out later were that CW had the offense doing drills at 50% speed, with little to no live contact. CW assumed the players were college players and could do the physical stuff if they understood the mental stuff. (He was also dealing with depleted depth, so I think there were injury concerns if they went 100% and someone got hurt.) This hurt not only the offensive line, but had a ripple affect on the defense as the tacklers rarely practiced tackling to the ground.

The problem is the players were not yet ready for full college level game speed. They hadn't handled enough reps at full speed to have developed proper technique or the muscle memory. You have to learn how to do something at game speed, and do it repeatedly so the mind doesn't have to think about getting the body to do it right.

Maybe the top 5-10 guys in their junior or senior seasons could practice at less than full speed and still be prepared for games. But not the majority and not young players.

There was a highlight from the last game where at least 5 different players came up to make a hit and missed as the player turned laterally and the defender spun around like a helicopter because they were in the wrong position and took the wrong angle. They all did it the same because the coaching staff failed to teach them how to do it properly at game speed.

Reports are now coming out that the majority of camp and fall was spent on schemes and not fundamentals. It's fitting, then, that one commentator compared CW's triple option experiment against GT in the 2007 opener to BVG's 3-3-5 experiment against Texas. Both were failures and both emphasized scheme over fundamental execution.

We are talking about two discrete things I think...

...when you take poor pursuit angles, or fail to attack with the right leverage, and whiff...and it happens multiple times across multiple players...well yea thats a teaching breakdown.

I'm talking about guys having contacted a ball carrier and not finishing. I can expect someone at Notre Dame knows how to hit, wrap, and use body and momentum/leverage to slow or stop progress...most of the time. As I said earlier, many times folks were in position to make a play on 3rd downs, having initiated contact, and failed...I'm sorry but thats some part coaching for not recognizing, and changing focus, and fixing it in camp...but also a big part the kids. So yes the way to fix the "finish" problem is make them tackle scout running backs in a gauntlet style drill until they are more afraid to do that drill again than whatever the hell is in their head when they get shook off initial contact. But I would argue thats not "teaching"...thats a realization/gut check situation. Thats a mental toughness thing, a willingness thing, a sense of urgency thing, a mentality thing. You don't help kids by excusing them on their mental / mentality issues...they need to bring that to the field like their helmet.

...really doesn't matter what we do or say out here...but I hope the players are being held to account on the things they can control...or no matter how they are coached...they won't improve. All parties gotta be honest...and accountable.

 

[11titlesandcounting]

This at least a 4 loss season possibly 5. Everyone needs to go and start over. Just got boat raced at home by an average team. We are worse than FURMAN.

Agreed 100%.

 

[ScooterIrish]

https://www.18stripes.com/18-stripes-film-room-notre-dame-defense-in-turmoil/

Good read...

 

[Irish#1]

https://www.18stripes.com/18-stripes-film-room-notre-dame-defense-in-turmoil/

Good read...

I don't have an issue with dropping linemen into coverage, but IMO for it to be effective, it has to be used sparingly, like once or twice a game. Then line the LB's up on the LOS to make the QB think the entire front seven or eight are coming. LB's have a shorter route to the QB and the O-line doesn't know who they need to block.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

https://www.18stripes.com/18-stripes-film-room-notre-dame-defense-in-turmoil/

Good read...

Thanks for posting this. It's exactly what I was looking for earlier this week when I was asking about dropping DL into coverage.