Autry Denson

[IrishLax]

I spoke recently with a guy whose brother plays at OSU. He says the way they keep kids out of trouble is scheduling 10-15 minute meetings every other 30-45 minutes throughout the day. That way the school doesn’t exceed NCAA time limits and the kids don’t have enough free time to leave the football facility and screw up. Sounds like a miserable existence.

Honestly not the worst idea lol... dunno how it works for late nights though?

 

[StPaul_Irish]

I'll check it out and give it a fair shake, but from what you're saying I doubt my opinion will change. To be clear, I think your posting is totally legit... I'm expressing disagreement with Driskell's content/conclusions.[/QUOTE]

Tell us how you really feel lol.

That is the great part about it, its a pod cast and you can take what you want from it. I find Brian to be a pretty good football mind. I would say I am 70/30 in line with him. But the 30 is usually way out there, like WTF is he talking about. Lou on the other hand I am not nearly as big on. Don't know a thing about his writing but he is stuck in yesteryear and tries to draw comps to today. Brian even seems to get annoyed sometimes.

As far as the pod cast goes, (this is my opinion) I think the point he was trying to make was the culture in the RB room might be off. He mentions something about miscommunication and maybe not being as invested as he could be. Denson won't let football get in the way of being a good husband and family man. Commendable forsure, but he alluded to that as a possible factor. Just listen to it, words are extremely hard from me right now. Damn words and sentences and whatnot

 

[Irish YJ]

I'll check it out and give it a fair shake, but from what you're saying I doubt my opinion will change. To be clear, I think your posting is totally legit... I'm expressing disagreement with Driskell's content/conclusions.

Tell us how you really feel lol.

That is the great part about it, its a pod cast and you can take what you want from it. I find Brian to be a pretty good football mind. I would say I am 70/30 in line with him. But the 30 is usually way out there, like WTF is he talking about. Lou on the other hand I am not nearly as big on. Don't know a thing about his writing but he is stuck in yesteryear and tries to draw comps to today. Brian even seems to get annoyed sometimes.

As far as the pod cast goes, (this is my opinion) I think the point he was trying to make was the culture in the RB room might be off. He mentions something about miscommunication and maybe not being as invested as he could be. Denson won't let football get in the way of being a good husband and family man. Commendable forsure, but he alluded to that as a possible factor. Just listen to it, words are extremely hard from me right now. Damn words and sentences and whatnot

IMO, that's setting a good example. Too many things, careers and other things, take away from family, parenting, and community. Good for him. Like I said in an earlier post, ND in general provides an environment better than most. You can't, and you shouldn't feel like you have to micro every kid if you're a coach. Is there a budget for babysitters?

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

Second of all, having people over for a BBQ or whatever does not prevent someone from performing criminal activity. Like I said... totally fine to blame him for recruiting McIntosh and Holmes. But if Driskell thinks it's part of the job description of a position coach to helicopter parent every single player in his group that's insane and completely unrealistic. What's the premise... that if Holmes had chilled at Denson's crib more he wouldn't have stolen a pair of sweatpants? Come on....

I don't know...I grilled up some burgers last night and I'm feeling pretty chivalrous today. Also, years ago, the week before I signed up to be a choir boy at my church, I ate my first rack of ribs. Coincidence I think not....

Edit: I will figure out the formatting for these posts. Have patience with this newbie.

 

[IrishLion]

Ya'll suck at quoting posts

 

[IrishLion]

Edit: I will figure out the formatting for these posts. Have patience with this newbie.

It's all good lol, just giving you all a hard time.

Are you using the quote button on the post you would like to quote? Or formatting yourself with the code?

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

It's all good lol, just giving you all a hard time.

Are you using the quote button on the post you would like to quote? Or formatting yourself with the code?

I used the quote button. Not sure how it got screwed up, I've just been on here as a reader long enough to know it wasn't correct lol. Looks like I did it this time, quick learner

 

[IrishLion]

I used the quote button. Not sure how it got screwed up, I've just been on here as a reader long enough to know it wasn't correct lol. Looks like I did it this time, quick learner

It may have been a result of the previous quote being messed up. Once one gets messed up, and then someone else quotes it AND uses a multi-quote, it all goes to hell.

 

[IrishLax]

It may have been a result of the previous quote being messed up. Once one gets messed up, and then someone else quotes it AND uses a multi-quote, it all goes to hell.

Yeah it was, St. Paul had a quote earlier that broke the whole chain, I fixed it but I guess it was too late as his post had already been quoted. Oh well haha

 

[zelezo vlk]

IrishLion;2011181]Ya'll suck at quoting posts[/QUOTE]

 

[IrishLion]

Ya'll suck at quoting posts

 

[snoopdog]

Yes, Deon McIntosh and CJ Holmes got in trouble. You can blame him for recruiting those two guys, I guess. It's certainly not a position coach's job to baby sit his players so I do find relatively easy to argue that that's his fault... especially given CJ Holmes' background I dunno how you predict he was going to shoplift something at ND.

Bottom line is that primary ND running backs have averaged 6.8, 5.9, and 7.3 YPC under Denson. In the rest of the Kelly era, they averaged 4.9, 5.1, 5.5, 4.6, and 5.1. I will entertain serious criticism of Denson as the RB coach the moment 1) the production returns to pre-Denson eras (might happen this year) or 2) we have to rely on his recruits and they don't produce. Both of those could very well happen this season. Until then it's mostly clickbait and hot air.

Well you have to admit that all this point does is muddy the water even more

If...

1) Denson is such a great RB coach and getting the most from his players, Along with
2) The Irish having a great Oline to run behind, as well as...
3) A lack of top end RB recruits.....

Why aren't all the 5 and high 4 star RB recruits crawling over hot coals to play for Denson and ND?

 

[IrishLion]

Ya'll suck at quoting posts

Well you have to admit that all this point does is muddy the water even more

If...

1) Denson is such a great RB coach and getting the most from his players, Along with
2) The Irish having a great Oline to run behind, as well as...
3) A lack of top end RB recruits.....

Why aren't all the 5 and high 4 star RB recruits crawling over hot coals to play for Denson and ND?

Because despite Josh Adams' stellar year last year, the ND offense isn't as RB-friendly as other offenses.

Also, because it's ND. Kids ain't come to play SCHOOL, classes are POINTLESS.

(For the record, I generally agree with you that ND should be able to land one of the better RB's in the country every couple classes, rather than having to rely on finding under-the-radar gems that develop appropriately, despite the limitations that I listed.)

 

[IrishLax]

Well you have to admit that all this point does is muddy the water even more

If...

1) Denson is such a great RB coach and getting the most from his players, Along with
2) The Irish having a great Oline to run behind, as well as...
3) A lack of top end RB recruits.....

Why aren't all the 5 and high 4 star RB recruits crawling over hot coals to play for Denson and ND?

Well, IMO, it only muddies the water if the assumption is "Denson is doing a bad job" and "recruiting 5 star RBs matters"... you have to accept both of those premises for this to be complicating circumstances. I certainly don't buy that recruiting high star RBs is very important given how many successful running attacks there are out there that employ 3 star guys, and how many 5 star RBs end up as busts. Unless you're getting the truly elite-of-the-elite Leonard Fournette types I don't think it really matters and ND is never going to sign that type of kid.

For contrast to Denson, Alford recruited guys like Bryant and Folston and had Hiestand-coached lines with players like Zach Martin and Ronnie Stanley. Those high star guys didn't have the production that Denson has gotten, and multiple of them (Mahone, Bryant, Atkinson, etc.) had off-the-field issues.

Yet not a single person here was anti-Alford, and no one at Ohio State is anti-Alford. Which is fine, because no one in their right mind would say Alford was "bad" at his job. Strangely, Denson is being held to a ludicrous standard despite incredible on-the-field results that greatly surpass any RB coach in Kelly's tenure (and probably any RB coach going back to the Holtz era but I don't have time to look that up).

I'll start believing that the RB recruiting is an issue the moment we have a sharp drop off in production to below pre-Denson levels, and the production is coming from those Denson recruits. That year could be this year! But until I see that, I refuse to make assumptions that C'Bo and Smith and Jones are all going to suck... or that we won't find a way to get a quality RB in this cycle. There is way too much evidence that 3 star RBs can be incredibly productive... just look at what Wisconsin does year in and year out.

 

[snoopdog]

Well, IMO, it only "muddies" the water if the assumption is "Denson is doing a bad job" and "recruiting 5 RBs matters"... you have to accept both of those premises for this to be complicating circumstances.

For example, Alford recruited guys like Bryant and Folston and had Hiestand-coached lines with players like Zach Martin and Ronnie Stanley. Those high star guys didn't have the production that Denson has gotten, and multiple of them (Mahone, Bryant, Atkinson, etc.) had off-the-field issues.

Yet not a single person here was anti-Alford, and no one at Ohio State is anti-Alford. Which is fine, because no one in their right mind would say Alford was "bad" at his job. Strangely, Denson is being held to a ludicrous standard despite incredible on-the-field results that greatly surpass any RB coach in Kelly's tenure (and probably any RB coach going back to the Holtz era but I don't have time to look that up).

I'll start believing that the RB recruiting is an issue the moment we have a sharp drop off in production to below pre-Denson levels, and the production is coming from those Denson recruits. That year could be this year! But until I see that, I refuse to make assumptions that C'Bo and Smith and Jones are all going to suck... or that we won't find a way to get a quality RB in this cycle. There is way too much evidence that 3 RBs can be incredibly productive... just look at what Wisconsin does year in and year out.

I agree with a lot of what you wrote....but there is still a flip side to this.....

If you have all the pieces in place to get high 4 star RB recruits....why on earth start taking low 3 star RB recruits....because it sometimes works for Wisconsin

 

[NewBrunswickIrish]

I agree with a lot of what you wrote....but there is still a flip side to this.....

If you have all the pieces in place to get high 4 star RB recruits....why on earth start taking low 3 star RB recruits....because it sometimes works for Wisconsin

Maybe it because Denson doesn't care how 247 or Rivals ranks a recruit and trusts himself as a better talent evaluator than some guys on the internet.

 

[IrishLax]

I agree with a lot of what you wrote....but there is still a flip side to this.....

If you have all the pieces in place to get high 4 star RB recruits....why on earth start taking low 3 star RB recruits....because it sometimes works for Wisconsin

I tried to clarify this a little bit with an edit, but didn't get it in before you started quoting.

Here are the most productive RBs from last year --
Rashaad Penny - low 3 star
Bryce Love - low 4 star
Jonathan Taylor - high 3 star
Devin Singletary - low 3 star, 2 star by some services
Josh Adams - high 3 star
JK Dobbins - high 4 star

Those are the only guys by my count that had at least 6.5 YPC and 1300 yards. Of those, only JK Dobbins of Ohio State was a top recruit. The others were all either basically lowly or moderately rated... Bryce Love was the highest finishing at #227 in the country overall coming out of HS.

My point is that it has basically been proven that RB recruiting is much more about fit/production than measurables/stars. It's why Bama signs so many RBs because they know many will be busts or wash out... they have a crazy high attrition rate at that position, damn near 50%, and they're signing almost exclusively highly rated guys. So I just reject the premise that signing 5-star RBs is important at all.

 

[NDMIA]

I tried to clarify this a little bit with an edit, but didn't get it in before you started quoting.

Here are the most productive RBs from last year --
Rashaad Penny - low 3 star
Bryce Love - low 4 star
Jonathan Taylor - high 3 star
Devin Singletary - low 3 star, 2 star by some services
Josh Adams - high 3 star
JK Dobbins - high 4 star

Those are the only guys by my count that had at least 6.5 YPC and 1300 yards. Of those, only JK Dobbins of Ohio State was a top recruit. The others were all either basically lowly or moderately rated... Bryce Love was the highest finishing at #227 in the country overall coming out of HS.

My point is that it has basically been proven that RB recruiting is much more about fit/production than measurables/stars. It's why Bama signs so many RBs because they know many will be busts or wash out... they have a crazy high attrition rate at that position, damn near 50%, and they're signing almost exclusively highly rated guys. So I just reject the premise that signing 5-star RBs is important at all.

With recruiting 5 star talents comes divas and kids who transfer out if they aren't playing immediately. I do agree that RB is one of the harder positions to grade and 4* vs. 3* is difficult to tell, but Alabama signs 4-5* RB's every year and that has in turn given them one of the best rushing attacks in the entire country every year for the last decade basically. There definitely is some correlation between getting a bunch of 4-5*'s in a room and having one or two talented guys on the field as a result.

 

[snoopdog]

I tried to clarify this a little bit with an edit, but didn't get it in before you started quoting.

Here are the most productive RBs from last year --
Rashaad Penny - low 3 star
Bryce Love - low 4 star
Jonathan Taylor - high 3 star
Devin Singletary - low 3 star, 2 star by some services
Josh Adams - high 3 star
JK Dobbins - high 4 star

Those are the only guys by my count that had at least 6.5 YPC and 1300 yards. Of those, only JK Dobbins of Ohio State was a top recruit. The others were all either basically lowly or moderately rated... Bryce Love was the highest finishing at #227 in the country overall coming out of HS.

My point is that it has basically been proven that RB recruiting is much more about fit/production than measurables/stars. It's why Bama signs so many RBs because they know many will be busts or wash out... they have a crazy high attrition rate at that position, damn near 50%, and they're signing almost exclusively highly rated guys. So I just reject the premise that signing 5-star RBs is important at all.

Like I said, I do agree with the underlying premise...but why the last minute chase for 2 star bumped to low 3 star C'bo late last recruiting cycle.

This is not to say C'Bo won't work out..........But it is to say....I guarantee you it wasn't BK's desire to start turning over rocks at the last minute looking for a RB who can perform at the P5 level.

And after that finish last year...I find it odd that still no stud RB wants to jump onboard. We are at the stage of hoping Kyren Williams signs....because Plan B looks to be kicking at more rocks.

 

[IrishLax]

Like I said, I do agree with the underlying premise...but why the last minute chase for 2 star bumped to low 3 star C'bo late last recruiting cycle.

This is not to say C'Bo won't work out..........But it is to say....I guarantee you it wasn't BK's desire to start turning over rocks at the last minute looking for a RB who can perform at the P5 level.

And after that finish last year...I find it odd that still no stud RB wants to jump onboard. We are at the stage of hoping Kyren Williams signs....because Plan B looks to be kicking at more rocks.

Yeah, I agree that last year's RB recruiting left a lot to be desired in terms of process. Reminded me of how we used to recruit DL with a bunch of desperation "project" offers late in cycles... that's really not a recruiting method that is built for long term success. We need to hit on more Plan A guys, that's for sure.

 

[EddytoNow]

With recruiting 5 star talents comes divas and kids who transfer out if they aren't playing immediately. I do agree that RB is one of the harder positions to grade and 4* vs. 3* is difficult to tell, but Alabama signs 4-5* RB's every year and that has in turn given them one of the best rushing attacks in the entire country every year for the last decade basically. There definitely is some correlation between getting a bunch of 4-5*'s in a room and having one or two talented guys on the field as a result.

Alabama's offensive line recruiting hasn't been too shabby either.

IMHO Notre Dame's problems with recruiting running backs is a product of BK's use of the running back in his offense. Running backs want to carry the ball, not sit on the bench for three years waiting for an opportunity to carry the ball 8-10 times per game (if they are the #1 option) and 4-5 times per game (if they are option #2 or #3). Last year was a step in the right direction regarding the use of the running back in Kelly's offense. Replicate that for three or four consecutive years and the running backs will come.

 

[StPaul_Irish]

Yeah it was, St. Paul had a quote earlier that broke the whole chain, I fixed it but I guess it was too late as his post had already been quoted. Oh well haha

Wait, what did I do? I just hit the quote button and then typed my thoughts.

I can't win with this group.

Help me help you?

 

[NDMIA]

Alabama's offensive line recruiting hasn't been too shabby either.

IMHO Notre Dame's problems with recruiting running backs is a product of BK's use of the running back in his offense. Running backs want to carry the ball, not sit on the bench for three years waiting for an opportunity to carry the ball 8-10 times per game (if they are the #1 option) and 4-5 times per game (if they are option #2 or #3). Last year was a step in the right direction regarding the use of the running back in Kelly's offense. Replicate that for three or four consecutive years and the running backs will come.

This had me look it up. Looking at top RB recruiting schools (Ohio State, Georgia, and Bama)...

2017 Carries
Nick Chubb 223
Josh Adams 206
JK Dobbins 194
Sony Michel 156
Damien Harris 135
Bo Scarbrough 124
Mike Weber 101
Deon McIntosh 65

2016 Carries
Nick Chubb 224
Mike Weber 182
Josh Adams 158
Sony Michel 152
Damien Harris 146
Bo Scarbrough 125
Curtis Samuel 97
Tarean Folston 77

ND is running in the middle of the pack when it comes to carries for their number 1, but you are right in the fact that they are far behind in terms of their number 2 carry total. Maybe this year with two guys (Dexter Williams & Tony Jones) who are clearly more experienced and probably flat out better than the rest if ND and BK will use them more. I'd love to see a 1A 1B like Bama and Georgia do with their running backs.

 

[stlnd01]

Don’t forget we also don’t play RBs until they prove can block and ideally catch passes out of the backfield. Good skills to have but makes it hard for young players - or high-star recruits - to see the field early.

 

[IrishLax]

Wait, what did I do? I just hit the quote button and then typed my thoughts.

I can't win with this group.

Help me help you?

You had accidentally deleted the last quote block... the one that goes [ / quote ] ... so it didn't know where the quote ended.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Denson is being held to a ludicrous standard despite incredible on-the-field results that greatly surpass any RB coach in Kelly's tenure (and probably any RB coach going back to the Holtz era but I don't have time to look that up).

Fun history lesson.

Different time period, but the '91, '92 and '93 rushing attacks were filthy. Of course, Joe Moore had much to do with that. The '91 team had 3 players average over 8 rushes per game, all having a per rush average at 5.4 or better. Tony Brooks was at 6.1 that year. The coach in 91 was Tom Beck. Tom Beck hired Brian Kelly at GVSU in 1987, leaving GVSU to take the ND job in 1991. Beck spent only one year at ND before moving for the OC role at Illinois.

The '92 team saw Reggie Brooks average 8.0 YPR to lead the country. Besides Brooks, you had Becton and Bettis average 5.4 or better. In '93, you had 2 FB's average nearly 5 yards per carry with Becton and Kinder averaging 6 or better. The RB coach at this point was Earl Mosley, the same coach that later publicly accused Holtz of assault during the 1996 BC game.....This was during the age discrimination trial against ND and Bob Davie (Mosley and Moore were the only two assistants not retained by Davie).

Post Holtz and Mosley, the production dropped nearly every year, reaching a low point in 2001, where the team averaged under 4 yards per carry. Desmond Robinson was the coach for that time period.

Buzz Preston took over from there, and it didn't get that much better. Was below 4.0 YPR as a team in 2 of the 3 seasons.

Post Buzz, it was Haywood, Alford, Hinton, Alford again and then Denson.

I think it's safe to say that ND's running game production under Denson has been the best since Mosley (first time ND averaged over 5 YPR since Mosley, and he as done it 2 out of 3 years). I would personally give the nod to Mosley, but it's clear that the running game is the best it has been since then.

 

[EddytoNow]

Josh Adams is the obvious exception under Kelly's tenure.

Dexter Williams, Deon McIntosh, and Tony Jones are more the norm.

Dexter Williams
Freshman Year - 21 total carries, 1.6 carries per game
Sophomore Year - 39 total carries, 3.25 carries per game
Junior Year - 39 total carries, 3 carries per game
Total = 2.6 carries per game over three seasons

Deon McIntosh
Freshman Year - 0 total carries, 0 carries per game
Sophomore Year - 65 total carries, 5 carries per game
Total = 2.6 carries per game over two seasons

Tony Jones
Freshman Year - 0 total carries, 0 carries per game
Sophomore Year - 44 total carries, 3.3 carries per game
Total = 1.76 carries per game over two seasons

Four and Five Star Players want to be on the field carrying the ball. When they are being recruited by other schools, it's a pretty easy sell to convince them that they will not get many carries if they go to ND. There's a reason Notre Dame never has a running back in the discussion when it comes to the NFL draft.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Josh Adams is the obvious exception under Kelly's tenure.

If Folston would've been healthy, Adams carries probably would've looked like Williams carries that year and Williams carries would've probably been zero. Instead Folston goes down with a season ending injury the first game of the season. BK had no choice but to play him as there were no other options behind Procise.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Josh Adams is the obvious exception under Kelly's tenure.

Ehh.

Since kelly took over...

2010 - Two RB with over 100 carries each, 3rd RB with 68
2011 - Two RB with over 100 carries each, one with over 200
2012 - Two RB with over 100 carries each, 3rd RB with 51
2013 - One RB with over 100 carries, 2nd RB with 93 and 3rd with 88
2014 - One RB with over 100 carries, 2nd RB with 77 and 3rd with 54, QB with over 100 carries
2015 - Two RB with over 100 carries, QB carried over 100 times as well
2016 - One RB with over 100 carries, QB carried over 100 times. 2nd RB with 77
2017 - One RB with over 200 carries, QB with 140 carries, 2 RB with 65

2017 was by far the lowest amount of carries for a #2 in BK's tenure. It really wasn't until 2014 that we really started to see significant declines in RB carries, but that was because of QB's running it more.

But if you were a good RB, would you really want to shoulder 200+ carries? I know I wouldn't. CJ did it right and got drafted in round 3.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Josh Adams is the obvious exception under Kelly's tenure.

Dexter Williams, Deon McIntosh, and Tony Jones are more the norm.

Dexter Williams
Freshman Year - 21 total carries, 1.6 carries per game
Sophomore Year - 39 total carries, 3.25 carries per game
Junior Year - 39 total carries, 3 carries per game
Total = 2.6 carries per game over three seasons

Deon McIntosh
Freshman Year - 0 total carries, 0 carries per game
Sophomore Year - 65 total carries, 5 carries per game
Total = 2.6 carries per game over two seasons

Tony Jones
Freshman Year - 0 total carries, 0 carries per game
Sophomore Year - 44 total carries, 3.3 carries per game
Total = 1.76 carries per game over two seasons

Four and Five Star Players want to be on the field carrying the ball. When they are being recruited by other schools, it's a pretty easy sell to convince them that they will not get many carries if they go to ND. There's a reason Notre Dame never has a running back in the discussion when it comes to the NFL draft.

I don't buy that for a minute. The carries in 2017 were more spread out because Jones and Williams were frequently injured, thus why McIntosh got more carries than both of them despite being lower on the depth chart.

Ohio State had JK Dobbins leading the team with 194 carries. Outside of that, Mikey Weber, Antonio Williams and DeMario McCall were the next three RB's with the most carries. Weber had 101, Williams had 57 and McCall had 14. In total, 172 carries. Whereas McIntosh, Williams and Jones combined for 148. 24 more carries, HOWEVER, you also have to factor in that Ohio State played 1 more game that ND, thus they'll generally have more snaps for carries. They also played in more blowout games, which allowed them to run it more with their backups. So there's very little difference in reps received, if any.

And yet, Ohio State is bringing in 1 5-star and 2 4-star RB's in the 2018 class.

I think the bigger knock on ND is the lack of NFL flagship RB's and an overall subpar draft record. Ohio State has Zeke Elliott, who not only was an early 1st rounder, but has established himself as one of the best RB's in the league. Bama has had guys like Derrick Henry, Kenyan Drake, TJ Yeldon, Mark Ingram, Trent Richardson and Eddie Lacy go in the first three rounds.

Notre Dame has had all of ONE running back go in the first three rounds in over a decade, that being CJ Prosise. Only 2 in 20 years (other being Julius Jones in '04). And Prosise hasn't exactly done much of anything in the league, while teams like Bama and OSU have something to sell in terms of legit NFL production. The best guy ND can bolster recently is Theo Riddick, who's been okay, but nothing special. In fact, I believe Riddick and Prosise are the only two RB's in the Kelly era to have been drafted at all.