A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[wizards8507]

I know you've read the books, which is why I said "Shownlies" instead of "you".

Bran hasn't died, and there's no indication that he's going to. But as for Jon:

• He has died, in close proximity to his wolf;
• Melisandre warned him repeatedly that he should keep Ghost close to him at all times; and
• D&B went out of their way to show Ghost this season (setting up a "Previously on GoT" cut scene for when he gets resurrected next season).

There's just too much circumstantial evidence for it to be a red herring.

As I conceded earlier, I don't disagree with this point at all. Mel's presence at Castle Black when Jon is assassinated is very unlikely to be coincidental. But I don't think it's an either/or situation. Jon's connection with Ghost and Mel's "kiss of life" are likely to play a role in Jon's resurrection.

I think this is the source of our disagreement. No one thinks that Jon is going to skinchange out of Ghost and into a new human host. Based on what Martin has written thus far, that's probably impossible. He's going to inhabit Ghost for a while (perhaps breaking out of confinement and ripping some traitorous throats out) before Mel revives him.

Can't disagree with this more. Parts of AFfC frustrated me as well, but that's largely because the first three books (especially ASoS) are so ridiculously good. ASoIaF is easily the best fiction series of the last several decades. If you enjoy fiction, wooly, dive into AGoT.

How do you feel about Jon's potential role in the series' endgame? I feel like he belongs in the North, and I won't be thrilled to see him forsake his vows to the NW.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Is it really that much better than the Malazan series? Also have you read Name of the Wind?

Yes, I do think ASoIaF is significantly better than the Malazan Book of the Fallen. They're very different, so a direct comparison is difficult, but Martin is a much better writer than Erikson, and his flaws are easier to overlook.

I'm embarrassed to say I haven't read The Name of the Wind yet, though it's been on my reading list for quite some time. That's why I qualified my assertion as best fiction series of the last several decades.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

How do you feel about Jon's potential role in the series' endgame? I feel like he belongs in the North, and I won't be thrilled to see him forsake his vows to the NW.

The Night's Watch vow:

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

Jon's watch ended with his assassination, so I have no issues with him going off to save the world now. He's obviously Martin's main protagonist.

 

[woolybug25]

How do you feel about Jon's potential role in the series' endgame? I feel like he belongs in the North, and I won't be thrilled to see him forsake his vows to the NW.

This.

Jon's watch ended with his assassination, so I have no issues with him going off to save the world now. He's obviously Martin's main protagonist.

and... let's not forget his lil' soiree with Ygritte the Wildling.

 

[wizards8507]

The Night's Watch vow:

Jon's watch ended with his assassination, so I have no issues with him going off to save the world now. He's obviously Martin's main protagonist.

Didn't you say like a week ago that you thought Tyrion was Martin's main protagonist?

and... let's not forget his lil' soiree with Ygritte the Wildling.

He was under orders.

If we are taken, you will go over to them, as the wildling girl you captured once urged you. They may demand that you cut your cloak to ribbons, that you swear them an oath on your father’s grave, that you curse your brothers and your Lord Commander. You must not balk, whatever is asked of you. Do as they bid you . . . but in your heart, remember who and what you are. Ride with them, eat with them, fight with them, for as long as it takes. And watch.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

and... let's not forget his lil' soiree with Ygritte the Wildling.

Martin's story may have medieval window dressing, but it's thoroughly modern in its philosophy. So septons, maesters and the Night's Watch all take vows of celibacy (since they're modeled on medieval religious orders), but even in Westeros the practice is viewed as anachronistic and pointless. Thus Mormont tells Jon that if he "beheaded every man who rode to Mole’s Town for the night only ghosts would guard the Wall." In other words, NBD.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Didn't you say like a week ago that you thought Tyrion was Martin's main protagonist?

No, but I do think he's Martin's favorite character. Odds are pretty good that Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Bran and Arya all have heavy plot armor, and that if any of them die, it won't be until the very end.

He was under orders.

"Make sure you tap that fine wildling bitch" is a creative reading of Qhorin's parting order to Jon.

 

[wizards8507]

"Make sure you tap that fine wildling bitch" is a creative reading of Qhorin's parting order to Jon.

 

[GATTACA!]

Martin's story may have medieval window dressing, but it's thoroughly modern in its philosophy. So septons, maesters and the Night's Watch all take vows of celibacy (since they're modeled on medieval religious orders), but even in Westeros the practice is viewed as anachronistic and pointless. Thus Mormont tells Jon that if he "beheaded every man who rode to Mole’s Town for the night only ghosts would guard the Wall." In other words, NBD.

Well plus in the vows it only says "I shall take no wife,...father no children." So tapping some chick from Mole's Town is fine as long as you don't get her pregnant.

 

[pkt77242]

Yes, I do think ASoIaF is significantly better than the Malazan Book of the Fallen. They're very different, so a direct comparison is difficult, but Martin is a much better writer than Erikson, and his flaws are easier to overlook.

I'm embarrassed to say I haven't read The Name of the Wind yet, though it's been on my reading list for quite some time. That's why I qualified my assertion as best fiction series of the last several decades.

Damn, now I have to read the books. I have been putting it off since I don't know if Martin will ever finish it.

The Name of the Wind is probably the best fiction book that I have ever read.

Also just so you know The Name of the Wind is the first book in a series, the second one "The Wise Man's Fear" isn't as good as The Name of the Wind (but is still pretty good, say a 7.5), and a 3rd book yet to come out. Unfortunately Rothfuss writes about as fast as Martin.

 

[Emcee77]

Damn, now I have to read the books. I have been putting it off since I don't know if Martin will ever finish it.

The Name of the Wind is probably the best fiction book that I have ever read.

Also just so you know The Name of the Wind is the first book in a series, the second one "The Wise Man's Fear" isn't as good as The Name of the Wind (but is still pretty good, say a 7.5), and a 3rd book yet to come out. Unfortunately Rothfuss writes about as fast as Martin.

pkt, wtf. I have asked at least twice on this board for recommendations of book series similar to ASOIAF. Only Whiskey has given me any so far (Malazan, a good rec for sure). You better step it up.

Lol j/k. Thanks for the rec. I'm definitely putting Name of the Wind on my list too.

 

[ND NYC]

for those that have read both....which should I go with first: malazan or rothfuss?

 

[ClausentoTate]

for those that have read both....which should I go with first: malazan or rothfuss?

One is 10 books, one is three. Up to you. I'm only halfway through the first Malazan book and it's pretty good so far.

 

[IrishLion]

I think ASoIaF is better fantasy writing than Erikson's Malazan series. Erikson definitely has some flaws and quirks in his writing, and uses some plot devices way too often that are too close to deus ex machina for my taste...

However, I'm actually partial to the Malazan series for several reasons. I like the similar scope in terms of characters, the world is MUCH larger, the mythos is just as intriguing to me, the many differing races as foils to the usual fantasy tropes is appealing, and, perhaps most importantly, the SERIES IS FINISHED. No teasing, no waiting, no grumpy attitude about why it's not finished. It's refreshing after having experienced the cliffhangers that GRRM has left us.

Also, I recently finished the Malazan series, so I'm biased right now. GRRM's series is clearly superior in terms of story and writing, but the Malazan world appeals to my personal fantasy tastes just a bit more.

 

[pkt77242]

pkt, wtf. I have asked at least twice on this board for recommendations of book series similar to ASOIAF. Only Whiskey has given me any so far (Malazan, a good rec for sure). You better step it up.

Lol j/k. Thanks for the rec. I'm definitely putting Name of the Wind on my list too.

Name of the Wind isn't really like ASOIAF, but it is amazing fantasy, but it really mostly deals with one person and his life.

ETA: Also the First Law Trilogy by Joe Abercrombie is very good as well.

 

[gkIrish]

I couldn't quite put my finger on what has bothered me about the show (especially this season) but this guy nailed it and I totally agree. I think most of you will, too.

(Spoilers All) The reason bad things happen on GoT has changed. GoT has gone from being a show that wouldn't cheat to help the good guys to a show that will cheat to help the bad guys. : asoiaf

 

[Irish YJ]

I couldn't quite put my finger on what has bothered me about the show (especially this season) but this guy nailed it and I totally agree. I think most of you will, too.

(Spoilers All) The reason bad things happen on GoT has changed. GoT has gone from being a show that wouldn't cheat to help the good guys to a show that will cheat to help the bad guys. : asoiaf

Hasn't bothered me all that much but yes, agree 100%. They could have easily wrote those scenes differently as to not cheat, but they didn't.

 

[wizards8507]

I couldn't quite put my finger on what has bothered me about the show (especially this season) but this guy nailed it and I totally agree. I think most of you will, too.

(Spoilers All) The reason bad things happen on GoT has changed. GoT has gone from being a show that wouldn't cheat to help the good guys to a show that will cheat to help the bad guys. : asoiaf

I think Martin's skill is not really HAVING many explicit good guys and bad guys. Tyrion and Dany have been whitewashed almost beyond recognition in the show.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

 

[ND NYC]

in my best NW droning voice..."and now the wait begins"

not sure I can wait a year for anything new.

 

[IrishLax]

I seriously don't get the gripe about the Sons of the Harpy. They're still losing fights 1v1, but they overwhelm Unsullied in numbers. That is the truth of pretty much any martial combat, and is actually incredibly accurate historically... whether in ancient times, or recent urbanized warfare. A surrounded group of elite warriors will lose every time to a "zerging" of bad fighters.

The fight that Selmy and Grey Worm lost-ish they were outnumbered something like 20 to 6. They killed all those guys. That's actually borderline unrealistic that they would do so well... not the other way around.

Equipment also matters. For close quarters, daggers are drastically superior to a spear. Why the Unsullied are not fighting with short swords and shields -- something they're also supposed to be proficient in -- is lazy writing to me, but I digress.

One rather modern example is how Israel kicked the shit out of Syria in the Six-Day war in their bunkers. Israeli troops were armed with Uzis and other compact weapons, while the Syrians were outfitted almost exclusively with AK-47s. While the AK-47 is a superior weapon for open terrain combat, in close quarters and inside structures it's size was a huge detriment while the Uzi was light, portable, and effective. That's basically the same thing happening in game of thrones... get in close enough that the spear becomes unwieldy, and it becomes a completely ineffective weapon versus a dagger or short sword.

 

[gkIrish]

I think Martin's skill is not really HAVING many explicit good guys and bad guys. Tyrion and Dany have been whitewashed almost beyond recognition in the show.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

I hear a lot of people say that but I think if you take a poll on whether ___ is good or bad > 90% of people would say Jon Snow, Tyrion, Davos, Arya, Bran, Ned, Robb, Sam, Brienne, and some other minor characters are good.

Then you will have controversial characters like Stannis, Khaleesi, Hound, Jaime, Jorah, Varys...where it's pretty much split down the middle.

Then you have 90% of people who think Cersei, Tywin, Gregor, Ramsay/Roose and others are "bad."

So I think you're right that there are a good amount of characters that can be viewed in many ways but there are more that are clearly good or bad.

 

[pkt77242]

I hear a lot of people say that but I think if you take a poll on whether ___ is good or bad > 90% of people would say Jon Snow, Tyrion, Davos, Arya, Bran, Ned, Robb, Sam, Brienne, and some other minor characters are good.

Then you will have controversial characters like Stannis, Khaleesi, Hound, Jaime, Jorah, Varys...where it's pretty much split down the middle.

Then you have 90% of people who think Cersei, Tywin, Gregor, Ramsay/Roose and others are "bad."

So I think you're right that there are a good amount of characters that can be viewed in many ways but there are more that are clearly good or bad.

Is Tywin significantly different in the books vs the show? I never really thought of Tywin the same breath as Ramsay, Roose or some of the others. Not that I thought he was good, I just never thought of him as horribly evil.

 

[gkIrish]

Is Tywin significantly different in the books vs the show? I never really thought of Tywin the same breath as Ramsay, Roose or some of the others. Not that I thought he was good, I just never thought of him as horribly evil.

I thought the show depicted him accurately as a terrible father to Tyrion, loyal only to the extent that it served his interests, and cowardly (i.e. his part in the Red Wedding). I'm not sure what positive traits he possesses other than his intelligence and adaptability.

 

[pkt77242]

I thought the show depicted him accurately as a terrible father to Tyrion, loyal only to the extent that it served his interests, and cowardly (i.e. his part in the Red Wedding). I'm not sure what positive traits he possesses other than his intelligence and adaptability.

He was generally pretty loyal to his family (outside of Tyrion, and didn't he doubt that Tyrion was his son?), and he wasn't cruel either (nothing like Joffrey or the Boltons). I wouldn't call him good, but I wouldn't call him evil either. Pragmatic?

 

[gkIrish]

I seriously don't get the gripe about the Sons of the Harpy. They're still losing fights 1v1, but they overwhelm Unsullied in numbers. That is the truth of pretty much any martial combat, and is actually incredibly accurate historically... whether in ancient times, or recent urbanized warfare. A surrounded group of elite warriors will lose every time to a "zerging" of bad fighters.

The fight that Selmy and Grey Worm lost-ish they were outnumbered something like 20 to 6. They killed all those guys. That's actually borderline unrealistic that they would do so well... not the other way around.

Equipment also matters. For close quarters, daggers are drastically superior to a spear. Why the Unsullied are not fighting with short swords and shields -- something they're also supposed to be proficient in -- is lazy writing to me, but I digress.

One rather modern example is how Israel kicked the shit out of Syria in the Six-Day war in their bunkers. Israeli troops were armed with Uzis and other compact weapons, while the Syrians were outfitted almost exclusively with AK-47s. While the AK-47 is a superior weapon for open terrain combat, in close quarters and inside structures it's size was a huge detriment while the Uzi was light, portable, and effective. That's basically the same thing happening in game of thrones... get in close enough that the spear becomes unwieldy, and it becomes a completely ineffective weapon versus a dagger or short sword.

But consider (a) that the Sons of Harpy are wearing these ridiculous masks that are likely heavy and impair vision; (b) the Unsullied are basically the Spartans in that they defend and attack as one unit while the Show has depicted them as bumbling around getting into individual fights where they are actually very capable of defeating a force 10x as big as theirs; and (c) why are there only a few dozen in the arena in the first place when Dany gets attacked? There are supposed to be 10,000 Unsullied but only 50-100 of them are protecting her in a massive crowd? Maybe it's that way in the books too but it seemed off to me.

 

[Irish YJ]

Is Tywin significantly different in the books vs the show? I never really thought of Tywin the same breath as Ramsay, Roose or some of the others. Not that I thought he was good, I just never thought of him as horribly evil.

I would classify him as bad, not necessarily evil like the rest. I saw him as a politician consumed with $ and family, not torture, killing, etc.. Yes, he orchestrated the Red Wedding, but for the purposes of protecting his family. Awful father, but not evil in the category of Roose, his son, etc.. I don't put Cersei in that bucket (evil) either. Bad person no doubt.

 

[wizards8507]

I hear a lot of people say that but I think if you take a poll on whether ___ is good or bad > 90% of people would say Jon Snow, Tyrion, Davos, Arya, Bran, Ned, Robb, Sam, Brienne, and some other minor characters are good.

Then you will have controversial characters like Stannis, Khaleesi, Hound, Jaime, Jorah, Varys...where it's pretty much split down the middle.

Then you have 90% of people who think Cersei, Tywin, Gregor, Ramsay/Roose and others are "bad."

So I think you're right that there are a good amount of characters that can be viewed in many ways but there are more that are clearly good or bad.

I agree that Tyrion is generally good but he's not "Saint Tyrion" as depicted in the show.

Daenerys is the biggest mischaracterization IMO. I think show people have her on the same pedestal as Jon Snow, while as I reader I see her as developing the Targ madness.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

 

[gkIrish]

He was generally pretty loyal to his family (outside of Tyrion, and didn't he doubt that Tyrion was his son?), and he wasn't cruel either (nothing like Joffrey or the Boltons). I wouldn't call him good, but I wouldn't call him evil either. Pragmatic?

For the record I didn't say good or evil...just good or bad. If good, bad, or unsure are the options I would definitely say bad.

I would classify him as bad, not necessarily evil like the rest. I saw him as a politician consumed with $ and family, not torture, killing, etc.. Yes, he orchestrated the Red Wedding, but for the purposes of protecting his family. Awful father, but not evil in the category of Roose, his son, etc.. I don't put Cersei in that bucket (evil) either. Bad person no doubt.

I agree.

 

[gkIrish]

I agree that Tyrion is generally good but he's not "Saint Tyrion" as depicted in the show.

Daenerys is the biggest mischaracterization IMO. I think show people have her on the same pedestal as Jon Snow, while as I reader I see her as developing the Targ madness.

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I don't like her in the show or the book because I just find her to be boring. I like literally all the other characters surrounding her but when she is the focus individually I zone out. I.e. when it was her and Drogon on the mountain I almost fell asleep.

I don't know whether I would put her in the good or bad category but you're right about her mischaracterization.

....and I'm posting too much

 

[IrishLion]

I hate book Tywin. He is evil.

Show Tywin was bad, but not evil. But that is mainly because of the way he treated Arya, and that he's depicted as intelligent and unforgiving, but not insanely cruel.