'21 CA QB Tyler Buchner (ND FB -> Bama FB -> ND LAX???)

NDdomer2 · Dec 16, 2020

Throwing evals commence

FightingIrishLover7 · Dec 21, 2020

Southside Sully · Dec 21, 2020

He's going to be a lot of fun to watch in South Bend

Domina Nostra · Dec 21, 2020

FightingIrishLover7 said:
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Narrative: "throwing motion changed...uh oh"

I will agree "camp to camp" comparisions, are undeniably different. But I hypothesized that this motion probably reveals itself in his old HS film, but we overlooked it because he was "looking good" while doing it, rather than "missing trash can throws" in camp.

Sure enough, 0:13 seconds in...what do I see? A Pat Mahomes/Phil Rivers toss for a TD.

I really, really want people to feel comfortable knowing that the traditional "throwing motion" is overblown. The counter will be "what about Jurkovec"? There's going to be bad throwing motions that make it. There's going to be good throwing motions that make it (and vice versa).

With that said, when comparing "touch" on throws, that's where it gets interesting. Guys like Jurkovec and Buchner may have similar "angles of release" (Phil's being a longer motion) but re-watching Phil's tape it's clear that he was a big arm hitting open receivers, while using his size to plow over defenses.

Also, the juke at 0:50 is filthy.

I'm not sure if he "should" be a day 1 starter, but we need to push for him to try and be. This is a "modern day QB" if I've ever seen one.

What are you saying here?

Are you saying it is good that Tyler is changing his throwing motion because he was relying too much on his athleticism, even though traditional throwing motions are over-rated?

Not sure I follow.

IRISHMAN · Dec 21, 2020

FightingIrishLover7 said:
I really, really want people to feel comfortable knowing that the traditional "throwing motion" is overblown. The counter will be "what about Jurkovec"? There's going to be bad throwing motions that make it. There's going to be good throwing motions that make it (and vice versa).

what worries me about his throwing motion is the low release point of the ball, im worried he wont throw from the pocket well because of batted down balls.

FightingIrishLover7 · Dec 21, 2020

Domina Nostra said:
What are you saying here?

Are you saying it is good that Tyler is changing his throwing motion because he was relying too much on his athleticism, even though traditional throwing motions are over-rated?

Not sure I follow.

I'm saying, I'm not worried about him "regressing" because of his "changed" motion.

IrishLax · Dec 21, 2020

FightingIrishLover7 said:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/mUPvz3qGics" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Narrative: "throwing motion changed...uh oh"

I will agree "camp to camp" comparisions, are undeniably different. But I hypothesized that this motion probably reveals itself in his old HS film, but we overlooked it because he was "looking good" while doing it, rather than "missing trash can throws" in camp.

Sure enough, 0:13 seconds in...what do I see? A Pat Mahomes/Phil Rivers toss for a TD.

I really, really want people to feel comfortable knowing that the traditional "throwing motion" is overblown. The counter will be "what about Jurkovec"? There's going to be bad throwing motions that make it. There's going to be good throwing motions that make it (and vice versa).

With that said, when comparing "touch" on throws, that's where it gets interesting. Guys like Jurkovec and Buchner may have similar "angles of release" (Phil's being a longer motion) but re-watching Phil's tape it's clear that he was a big arm hitting open receivers, while using his size to plow over defenses.

Also, the juke at 0:50 is filthy.

I'm not sure if he "should" be a day 1 starter, but we need to push for him to try and be. This is a "modern day QB" if I've ever seen one.

Not sure if I'm understanding this part right, but for me my entire issue is that his "compact" release he was demonstrating at Elite 11 is actually different than his varying array of arm angles we see on film and that he's being over-coached.

My position has always been that they need to just let him throw however he feels comfortable. Like you said... watch Mahomes play. Or Russel Wilson or Rodgers or most of the top QBs right now now. They throw from all kinds of different arm angles. There is absolutely no reason to coach Buchner to throw "over the top" and "compact" when he should just be doing whatever comes natural.

I know for an absolute fact that when he and McCarthy both threw for ND coaches it was not close between them. And then Buchner shows up months later at some camps after being "coached" and is wildly inaccurate with worse velocity... that tells you the coach is the problem.

FightingIrishLover7 · Dec 21, 2020

Also: 1:17, left handed Ian Book 2.0 flip pass.
He's a gamer.
Easy to see why he was the nations #1 lacrosse recruit at one point.

NorthDakota · Dec 21, 2020

FightingIrishLover7 said:
Also: 1:17, left handed Ian Book 2.0 flip pass.
He's a gamer.
Easy to see why he was the nations #1 lacrosse recruit at one point.

Hes an athlete for sure. No need to turn him into Jimmy Clausen. Just let him be a dude who does dude things.

BeauBenken · Dec 21, 2020

IrishLax said:
Not sure if I'm understanding this part right, but for me my entire issue is that his "compact" release he was demonstrating at Elite 11 is actually different than his varying array of arm angles we see on film and that he's being over-coached.

My position has always been that they need to just let him throw however he feels comfortable. Like you said... watch Mahomes play. Or Russel Wilson or Rodgers or most of the top QBs right now now. They throw from all kinds of different arm angles. There is absolutely no reason to coach Buchner to throw "over the top" and "compact" when he should just be doing whatever comes natural.

I know for an absolute fact that when he and McCarthy both threw for ND coaches it was not close between them. And then Buchner shows up months later at some camps after being "coached" and is wildly inaccurate with worse velocity... that tells you the coach is the problem.

I think we would've seen him go back to the kinda of player we would have expected if he was able to play this season. I think when the lights come on and he isn't focused on his own mechanics and just plays like he naturally can he's a superstar.

Luckylucci · Dec 21, 2020

Crazy that this got bumped today as I was watching his Junior highlights last night. All the conversation about needing elite QB's got me thinking about whether or not Buch will be that guy. His Junior tape is so damn good it got me going again. He's a dynamic play maker and I think he'll do big things here.

rtrn2glory · Dec 21, 2020

Luckylucci said:
Crazy that this got bumped today as I was watching his Junior highlights last night. All the conversation about needing elite QB's got me thinking about whether or not Buch will be that guy. His Junior tape is so damn good it got me going again. He's a dynamic play maker and I think he'll do big things here.

I think you're right, but I don't think it'll be next year.

FightingIrishLover7 · Dec 21, 2020

BeauBenken said:
I think we would've seen him go back to the kinda of player we would have expected if he was able to play this season. I think when the lights come on and he isn't focused on his own mechanics and just plays like he naturally can he's a superstar.

This is exactly where I'm at.

Dumb competition (over thinking/over aiming etc) vs actual throws in a game...
Not even close to the same thing.

He's a playmaker. No "camp" will accurately demonstrate that ability.

It's a damn shame his season was cancelled, because I would have put money that his season (all be it at a new school) would have been the exact same level of greatness as his junior year, and the "camp" throw conversation would be moot.

InKellyWeTrust · Dec 21, 2020

If he's somewhere close to being ready we should see him at some point next year. Retooled offensive line, many new WRs - I think you get all the young guys lots of reps to make a push for 2022 and 2023. I'm all in on this guy.

ulukinatme · Dec 21, 2020

Early enrollees have worked out pretty well for us at QB. Can't wait to see what he can do in Spring Ball with the other QBs.

rtrn2glory · Dec 21, 2020

ulukinatme said:
Early enrollees have worked out pretty well for us at QB. Can't wait to see what he can do in Spring Ball with the other QBs.

I've thought about this as well. He's taking a lot of heat for skipping his senior year in football to come enroll early. My thinking is the staff obviously wants him there in the spring to compete and possibly win the job. Say what you want, but if they thought next year's starting QB was already on campus it would make sense for them to say to stay in Cali and play your senior year. Doesn't seem to be the case here so he needs to be in town competing for the starting job ASAP.

FightingIrishLover7 · Dec 21, 2020

rtrn2glory said:
I've thought about this as well. He's taking a lot of heat for skipping his senior year in football to come enroll early. My thinking is the staff obviously wants him there in the spring to compete and possibly win the job. Say what you want, but if they thought next year's starting QB was already on campus it would make sense for them to say to stay in Cali and play your senior year. Doesn't seem to be the case here so he needs to be in town competing for the starting job ASAP.

On top of this...

I really don't know if they're going to have HS football spring season either...cases out of control out there, plus, you know their stance on Covid.

That would be a huge gamble to skip EE. Way more smart for him to come to ND immediately.

Luckylucci · Dec 21, 2020

rtrn2glory said:
I think you're right, but I don't think it'll be next year.

Completely reasonable as I think most of us agree we are very unsure about what we have with Pyne and Buchner, as he hasn't played competitive football in quite a while. However, if it's close, I'm riding the ups and downs with Buchner as he seems to have that extra potential. I guess we'll see. It will be very fun aspect of Spring camp to follow.

In fact, I think we have 13 EE's for Spring Camp.

zelezo vlk · Dec 21, 2020

Luckylucci said:
Completely reasonable as I think most of us agree we are very unsure about what we have with Pyne and Buchner, as he hasn't played competitive football in quite a while. However, if it's close, I'm riding the ups and downs with Buchner as he seems to have that extra potential. I guess we'll see. It will be very fun aspect of Spring camp to follow.

In fact, I think we have 13 EE's for Spring Camp.

On a podcast last week, I think Irish Illustrated said it was 14. Certainly up there, and they think this trend of a large amount of EE's continues

rtrn2glory · Dec 21, 2020

Luckylucci said:
Completely reasonable as I think most of us agree we are very unsure about what we have with Pyne and Buchner, as he hasn't played competitive football in quite a while. However, if it's close, I'm riding the ups and downs with Buchner as he seems to have that extra potential. I guess we'll see. It will be very fun aspect of Spring camp to follow.

In fact, I think we have 13 EE's for Spring Camp.

Correct. A lot of positions up for grabs will make this a very competitive spring practice season.

FightingIrishLover7 · Dec 21, 2020

I think he survived last spring cancellation pretty well, all things considered (due to vet leadership).

Imagine this spring with no practice :/

IRISHMAN · Dec 21, 2020

ulukinatme said:
Early enrollees have worked out pretty well for us at QB. Can't wait to see what he can do in Spring Ball with the other QBs.

but never in their freshman year. for some reason BK has done well with first time starting QBs.

Luckylucci · Dec 21, 2020

zelezo vlk said:
On a podcast last week, I think Irish Illustrated said it was 14. Certainly up there, and they think this trend of a large amount of EE's continues

I'm a huge fan of it.

Even for guys that have no expectations of playing right away like Aupiu. When you start to consider how much extra time they really get, it's a no brainer.

Consider that an EE is on campus, what, 5-6 months before regular freshman are. So, when they start Fall Camp of their Sophomore years (the following August), an EE will have been on campus 19-20 months versus 13-14. That's significant. It also wouldn't surprise me if that was going into some of these evals, like Aupiu.

NDdomer2 · Dec 21, 2020

if Kelly feels like he can win 75% of the games with this kid i think you gotta let it roll. It will pay off the following years.

NDdomer2 · Dec 21, 2020

Luckylucci said:
I'm a huge fan of it.

Even for guys that have no expectations of playing right away like Aupiu. When you start to consider how much extra time they really get, it's a no brainer.

Consider that an EE is on campus, what, 5-6 months before regular freshman are. So, when they start Fall Camp of their Sophomore years (the following August), an EE will have been on campus 19-20 months versus 13-14. That's significant. It also wouldn't surprise me if that was going into some of these evals, like Aupiu.

The thing I like is it seems like we said this is a crazy year, crazy rules, lets go all in.

Sign 27 (maybe plus if we hit the transfer market)
Kids arent playing their senior seasons - get them on campus.

We might not have some inherent advantages as the top top dogs, but we gotta do the things we can do close the gap, and it appears were trying.

Luckylucci · Dec 21, 2020

NDdomer2 said:
The thing I like is it seems like we said this is a crazy year, crazy rules, lets go all in.

Sign 27 (maybe plus if we hit the transfer market)
Kids arent playing their senior seasons - get them on campus.

We might not have some inherent advantages as the top top dogs, but we gotta do the things we can do close the gap, and it appears were trying.

I'm with ya. I love what they are doing with regards to roster management. They aren't actually oversigning and therefore forcing kids out. Some kids may leave due to playing time but this isn't a scholarship crunch situation. Covid rules state there is no scholarship limit until August of 2022. Load up the program now with players, asap in some cases with EE, and let's see these guys compete. Cream will rise to the top. Guys will graduate and maybe choose to continue playing elsewhere. There won't be any, forced, uncomfortable conversations for awhile.

IRISHMAN · Dec 21, 2020

IrishLax said:
My position has always been that they need to just let him throw however he feels comfortable. Like you said... watch Mahomes play. Or Russel Wilson or Rodgers or most of the top QBs right now now. They throw from all kinds of different arm angles. There is absolutely no reason to coach Buchner to throw "over the top" and "compact" when he should just be doing whatever comes natural.

here is Patrick Mahomes senior HS film, his release point/throwing style is very similar to Buchners. Im not going to say that Buchner is the next mahomes but its refreshing to see a QB like Mahomes have the success he's had with a similar throwing style as Buchner.

https://www.hudl.com/video/3/886649/5721b0dd041ddc1b0037860d

Sea Turtle · Dec 21, 2020

IRISHMAN said:
here is Patrick Mahomes senior HS film, his release point/throwing style is very similar to Buchners. Im not going to say that Buchner is the next mahomes but its refreshing to see a QB like Mahomes have the success he's had with a similar throwing style as Buchner.

https://www.hudl.com/video/3/886649/5721b0dd041ddc1b0037860d

I would push or shot put the ball like Phillip Rivers. Everybody would tell me to throw it like Brady or Montana but I just couldn't do it effectively. I had no power to get the ball down field that way.
Leave kids mechanics alone if it works for them.

FightingIrishLover7 · Dec 21, 2020

NDdomer2 said:
if Kelly feels like he can win 75% of the games with this kid i think you gotta let it roll. It will pay off the following years.

This where I'm at.

Is one year of Clark or Pyne worth it?
Buchner has to be the starter by his Sophomore year, or we're going to be hurting.

So it's either
1) Buchner is the guy
or
2) We get a one year Russell Wilson / Joe Burrow guy to sneak in.

Also, with the pieces around Buchner, I see no flashbacks to Jimmy's frosh year. That talent was bad bad around him.

NDisme · Dec 21, 2020

FightingIrishLover7 said:
This where I'm at.

Is one year of Clark or Pyne worth it?
Buchner has to be the starter by his Sophomore year, or we're going to be hurting.

So it's either
1) Buchner is the guy
or
2) We get a one year Russell Wilson / Joe Burrow guy to sneak in.

Also, with the pieces around Buchner, I see no flashbacks to Jimmy's frosh year. That talent was bad bad around him.

Oh god, that ‘07 year was brutal Jimmy was running for his life and getting the sh*t kicked out of him.

'21 CA QB Tyler Buchner (ND FB -> Bama FB -> ND LAX???)

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