2017 NFL Draft

[Rack Em]

I like Garrett but I like this course of action better than any of these QBs 1st overall...

Yeah the Brownies aren't a QB away from a title. That's why they were 1 and fucking 15. Use a 3rd rounder on a QB (ala the Cowboys and Prescott) after you address a bunch of needs in the first 2 rounds. A 3rd round QB is at worst a backup for a couple of years. At best you get a potential franchise QB like Russell Wilson or Dak. It's low risk, high reward especially since Cleveland can roll with Kessler next season at worst.

 

[Rack Em]

He'd be great in the role Chung has on the Pats. Plays really close to the line of scrimmage, mainly there to stuff the run and cover TEs and RBs, but also plays nickel in certain matchups.

But, that requires a defense creating a role like that. The Pats typically use two Free Safetys on passing downs and let Chung hangout near the line of scrimmage...not sure how prevalent that is in the NFL.

It also requires a team willing to spend 1st round money on a niche position.

 

[gkIrish]

I agree. Just because he played well last night doesn't take away all of his history. I also vehemently disagree that his floor is higher than Kizer's. He is inferior to him in every physical feature. If you are looking at them both as projects that need molding, there is no question that Kizer is the better tool set.

Frankly, I don't like any of the QB's in the first round, but all three very well may get picked. I don't think a defensive player has to be generational to be picked first either, he just has to be the best player on the board. Picking a project QB with the first pick just because you need one is beyond silly. You didn't get the first pick because you were only a QB away from being good. You pick the best player on the board or trade out of the pick.

If you think Watson is a "project" QB I cannot disagree more. I think the kid is ready right now to start in the NFL.

 

[gkIrish]

Do you guys think the Panthers would take anyone but Cam Newton if they could redo the 2011 draft?

Von Miller, JJ Watt, AJ Green, Patrick Peterson, Julio Jones, and Tyron Smith were all taken after Cam.

I strongly believe they still would take Cam even though some of those players are probably better at their position than Cam is at his. If you don't have a QB, you take one even if there are a couple players with more talent IMO.

 

[ACamp1900]

If you think Watson is a "project" QB I cannot disagree more. I think the kid is ready right now to start in the NFL.

He doesn't take snaps under center and has never run a pro style offense... he's much like Goff in that regard.

 

[gkIrish]

He doesn't take snaps under center and has never run a pro style offense... he's much like Goff in that regard.

That's true but neither did Mariota and he has been really good.

Comparing Goff and Watson is not fair. Goff literally never played on a big stage. Watson played like a superhero against Bama twice plus other big games.

 

[Monk]

Do you guys think the Panthers would take anyone but Cam Newton if they could redo the 2011 draft?

Von Miller, JJ Watt, AJ Green, Patrick Peterson, Julio Jones, and Tyron Smith were all taken after Cam.

I strongly believe they still would take Cam even though some of those players are probably better at their position than Cam is at his. If you don't have a QB, you take one even if there are a couple players with more talent IMO.

Absolutely not. Some other players may be better overall, but QB is the most important position and he is a top player at his position.

 

[gkIrish]

I can be convinced that Garrett is the better first pick but I sure as shit will not ever believe that Mitch Trubisky should be picked before Watson. Deshaun should be the #1 QB for sure.

 

[ACamp1900]

I've honestly never seen Trubisky play... just highlights...

 

[ND NYC]

its crazy how much the nfl is a "qb league" now.

most important position on the team, none of the others are even close.

if you get qb position right (very hard to) (i.e get a kid who turns into productive/winning 10yr starter) everything else can fall into place.

if you don't, you are the Cleveland browns.

 

[NDohio]

Why would Cleveland draft Watson? They already have RGIII...

 

[ACamp1900]

if you get qb position right (very hard to) (i.e get a kid who turns into productive/winning 10yr starter) everything else can fall into place.

Except this isn't really true... Eli didn't win those Super Bowls... Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson didn't win theirs... Joe Flacco isn't some all world QB... and here's a super true hottake... the Pats are a great team, not a QB,... Also, Drew Brees, Phillip Rivers, Andrew Luck are all really, really good QBs... one super bowl ring among them... maybe, just maybe real good teams make can QBs look good and really bad teams can make QBs look bad?????

It's almost as if football really is this ultimate team game and even a great QB needs to play on a good team ( and especially with a good defense) to play for a championship... strange how that works...

But nah, it was really Tom Brady who led all those top five New England defenses.....

 

[GowerND11]

Except this isn't really true... Eli didn't win those Super Bowls... Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson didn't win theirs... Joe Flacco isn't some all world QB... and here's a super true hottake... the Pats are a great team, not a QB,... Also, Drew Brees, Phillip Rivers, Andrew Luck are all really, really good QBs... one super bowl ring among them... maybe, just maybe real good teams make can QBs look good and really bad teams can make QBs look bad?????

It's almost as if football really is this ultimate team game and even a great QB needs to play on a good team ( and especially with a good defense) to play for a championship... strange how that works...

But nah, it was really Tom Brady who led all those top five New England defenses.....

It's easy if you're the Pats and you can have both, isn't it? You need a good QB in the league, but like you said, he doesn't have to be a world beater. Was Dilfer good? Not really. Johnson arguably had one of the top 2 seasons of his career the year he won. One thing a lot of these guys had were incredible defenses like you said.

It's the ultimate team game, I agree. Rivers could probably win a Super Bowl if the Chargers ever had a defense or stayed reasonably healthy for a season. However, I will argue that something is happening in Green Bay that is scary, they are winning without being able to run the ball. Makes Rodgers look even more impressive.

 

[GATTACA!]

if it was up to me, i'm taking Watson if I have shot at first qb off the board.

kids a WINNER.

has been vastly underrated his whole career IMO.

kid has led his team to 2 Natl Championship games in a row, no off field issues, can run, is tough as nails and throws well enough.

This is the dumbest rationale for wanting to take a QB. There are tons of guys that are "winners" Vince Young, Matt Leinart, Colt McCoy, and Tim Tebow where all winners. That term means nothing. Unless their skillset translates to the NFL they aren't going to accomplish squat. Watson has really sporadic accuracy. He's often throwing to wide open receivers which he won't have in the NFL. He also relies heavily on Mike Williams. How many times last night did he just chuck it up and hope Williams came down with it? Reminded me a ton of Maziel with Evans.

Yeah the Brownies aren't a QB away from a title. That's why they were 1 and fucking 15. Use a 3rd rounder on a QB (ala the Cowboys and Prescott) after you address a bunch of needs in the first 2 rounds. A 3rd round QB is at worst a backup for a couple of years. At best you get a potential franchise QB like Russell Wilson or Dak. It's low risk, high reward especially since Cleveland can roll with Kessler next season at worst.

The Cowboys were already a really really good team. They had a down year because Romo got hurt, they didn't turn the franchise around because they waited to the 3rd round to try and find their franchise QB, they already had a franchise QB and took a flyer on a late round QB, cuz why not? The Browns are in a completely different scenario.

I can be convinced that Garrett is the better first pick but I sure as shit will not ever believe that Mitch Trubisky should be picked before Watson. Deshaun should be the #1 QB for sure.

Well we agree on Trubisky at least. Kizer is the clear #1 IMO. He's better in almost every respect than Watson. He's bigger, has a better arm, ran a more pro style offense in college, played in the cold, I would put money on his wonderlick being higher, and more i'm forgetting. I think Kizer is going to destroy at the combine and will be the clear #1 by draft time. The position is just too important to pass up on Kizer's type of upside. The QB positions importance overrides BPA.

Essentially i'd much rather have Kizer and Solomon Thomas than Garrett and Trubisky or the best CB available.

 

[GowerND11]

The Cowboys were already a really really good team. They had a down year because Romo got hurt, they didn't turn the franchise around because they waited to the 3rd round to try and find their franchise QB, they already had a franchise QB and took a flyer on a late round QB, cuz why not? The Browns are in a completely different scenario.

This is true, but being that the Browns' situation is so much worse they don't have a team around a 1st round QB. Build up the rest of the team first, let Kessler take the lumps, and maybe you strike oil with a 3rd-4th round QB. If you don't, no big deal as the foundation is laid for a franchise QB to come into the team.

 

[ACamp1900]

It's easy if you're the Pats and you can have both, isn't it? You need a good QB in the league, but like you said, he doesn't have to be a world beater. Was Dilfer good? Not really. Johnson arguably had one of the top 2 seasons of his career the year he won. One thing a lot of these guys had were incredible defenses like you said.

It's the ultimate team game, I agree. Rivers could probably win a Super Bowl if the Chargers ever had a defense or stayed reasonably healthy for a season. However, I will argue that something is happening in Green Bay that is scary, they are winning without being able to run the ball. Makes Rodgers look even more impressive.

I agree with all of this... Rodgers is and has been for a number of years the best at his position in the NFL imo... no real debate in my mind... but even he needs the rest of what is really an average NFL team to step up if they are going to ride this all the way...

I'd love to see it happen tho, my pops was a lifer Pack fan like I am with the Browns, he passed away in Feb,.. my uncle looked up to him and also became a Pack fan bc of him, my uncle passed away last month... I'd love to rock his Packers jersey for both of them on SB Sunday...

 

[GATTACA!]

This is true, but being that the Browns' situation is so much worse they don't have a team around a 1st round QB. Build up the rest of the team first, let Kessler take the lumps, and maybe you strike oil with a 3rd-4th round QB. If you don't, no big deal as the foundation is laid for a franchise QB to come into the team.

I'm done with late round project QBs. Kessler, McCoy, Weeden, Frye, Shaw, Holcomb, it doesn't work and the odds of striking oil are incredibly low.

Take the best QB in the draft and if it doesn't work do it again until you get it right.

 

[ACamp1900]

This is the dumbest rationale for wanting to take a QB. There are tons of guys that are "winners" Vince Young, Matt Leinart, Colt McCoy, and Tim Tebow where all winners. That term means nothing. Unless their skillset translates to the NFL they aren't going to accomplish squat. Watson has really sporadic accuracy. He's often throwing to wide open receivers which he won't have in the NFL. He also relies heavily on Mike Williams. How many times last night did he just chuck it up and hope Williams came down with it? Reminded me a ton of Maziel with Evans.



The Cowboys were already a really really good team. They had a down year because Romo got hurt, they didn't turn the franchise around because they waited to the 3rd round to try and find their franchise QB, they already had a franchise QB and took a flyer on a late round QB, cuz why not? The Browns are in a completely different scenario.




Well we agree on Trubisky at least. Kizer is the clear #1 IMO. He's better in almost every respect than Watson. He's bigger, has a better arm, ran a more pro style offense in college, played in the cold, I would put money on his wonderlick being higher, and more i'm forgetting. I think Kizer is going to destroy at the combine and will be the clear #1 by draft time. The position is just too important to pass up on Kizer's type of upside. The QB positions importance overrides BPA.

Essentially i'd much rather have Kizer and Solomon Thomas than Garrett and Trubisky or the best CB available.

I agree with everything in this post except for the last sentence... I'd take Garrett, Trubisky and a top CB and sleep much better....

 

[ACamp1900]

This is true, but being that the Browns' situation is so much worse they don't have a team around a 1st round QB. Build up the rest of the team first, let Kessler take the lumps, and maybe you strike oil with a 3rd-4th round QB. If you don't, no big deal as the foundation is laid for a franchise QB to come into the team.

This is EXACTLY why passing on Carson Wentz last year was a good thing.... you can throw Rodgers on this Browns team and it wouldn't matter... the TEAM is a train wreck, no QB is fixing that... they need high talent players for multiple units across the field... then you can nit pick one of two positions... (and for the record, if an Andrew Luck QB was sitting there then you obviously take him, best available for now... QB or no)

I'm done with late round project QBs. Kessler, McCoy, Weeden, Frye, Shaw, Holcomb, it doesn't work and the odds of striking oil are incredibly low.

Take the best QB in the draft and if it doesn't work do it again until you get it right.

This is why we can't have nice things....

 

[koonja]

Watson vs. Kizer

Accuracy = Watson. Kizer had bad accuracy all year.
Running ability (IDC who's faster) = Watson
Arm = Tie?
Attitude = Watson
Size = Kizer
Big Game Balls = Watson

I don't think it's close. Kizer would have had 65 total yards last night, 6 pouts, and lost 2 fumbles. Kizer looks great when he makes a throw, because he has the perfect size. But he then follows up a good throw with missing 2 wide open receivers, throwing an inaccurate ball to the other, or sitting in the pocket for 8 seconds and getting sacked.

 

[GATTACA!]

I agree with everything in this post except for the last sentence... I'd take Garrett, Trubisky and a top CB and sleep much better....

Well you don't get Trubisky and a CB in that scenario, so what if I add the caveat that we trade back from #1? So it's...

Kizer + Solomon Thomas and a 2018 1st

vs

Garrett and Trubisky OR a CB

 

[GATTACA!]

Watson vs. Kizer

Accuracy = Watson. Kizer had bad accuracy all year.
Running ability (IDC who's faster) = Watson
Arm = Tie?
Attitude = Watson
Size = Kizer
Big Game Balls = Watson

I don't think it's close. Kizer would have had 65 total yards last night, 6 pouts, and lost 2 fumbles.

I do not agree with any of this. Watson's ball placement is terrible and did you watch the first half of the game? He must have missed 10 open receivers. Kizer's accuracy is all over the place sometimes too, but when he's on he has shown the ability to make every NFL throw imaginable. The throw to Hunter in the endzone against Texas when he got knocked out was the best throw I saw all season.

Running is less important at the next level but in any case Kizer is more than mobile enough to get the job done. Kizer's running reminds me of Cam, it's more of a power run than an RGIII scrambling ability. Which is fine, Keep Bim healthy.

Arm. Kizer without question.


Attitude. What makes you put Watson ahead? Kizer was incredibly professional for the amount of shit Kelly put him through this year. He should have been the starting QB coming into the season, but he handled the QB competition as well as you could want and went about his business. Watson was essentially playing on an all star team. Pretty easy to have a good attitude in that situation.

Size Kizer agreed

Big game balls. Kizer outplayed Watson when they went head to head. Kizer can't help that the team around him was dog shit and he didn't play in any big games this season. He stepped up pretty damn well in 2015.

Adversity Kizer

Playing in bad conditions Kizer

Intelligence Kizer

 

[ACamp1900]

Well you don't get Trubisky and a CB in that scenario, so what if I add the caveat that we trade back from #1? So it's...

Kizer + Solomon Thomas and a 2018 1st

vs

Garrett and Trubisky OR a CB

hmm,... maybe let's revisit this after the combine but even then I'm about a push right now... We need impact players on defense to help Shelton... he's a rock that you can build a very good front seven around...

 

[gkIrish]

I do not agree with any of this. Watson's ball placement is terrible and did you watch the first half of the game? He must have missed 10 open receivers. Kizer's accuracy is all over the place sometimes too, but when he's on he has shown the ability to make every NFL throw imaginable. The throw to Hunter in the endzone against Texas when he got knocked out was the best throw I saw all season.

Running is less important at the next level but in any case Kizer is more than mobile enough to get the job done. Kizer's running reminds me of Cam, it's more of a power run than an RGIII scrambling ability. Which is fine, Keep Bim healthy.

Arm. Kizer without question.


Attitude. What makes you put Watson ahead? Kizer was incredibly professional for the amount of shit Kelly put him through this year. He should have been the starting QB coming into the season, but he handled the QB competition as well as you could want and went about his business. Watson was essentially playing on an all star team. Pretty easy to have a good attitude in that situation.

Size Kizer agreed

Big game balls. Kizer outplayed Watson when they went head to head. Kizer can't help that the team around him was dog shit and he didn't play in any big games this season. He stepped up pretty damn well in 2015.

Adversity Kizer

Playing in bad conditions Kizer

Intelligence Kizer

I am as big a Kizer believer as there is on this site (have been saying he will be a first rounder for a long time now) but this is a super-homerish post. Your analysis just concluded Kizer is better at Watson at everything, which is blatantly false.

What about leadership? Probably the #1 most important trait for a franchise QB is being able to lead by example and elevate the level of your teammates play. Watson does that. Kizer not really.

 

[NDohio]

Watson vs. Kizer

Accuracy = Watson. Kizer had bad accuracy all year.
Running ability (IDC who's faster) = Watson
Arm = Tie?
Attitude = Watson
Size = Kizer
Big Game Balls = Watson

I don't think it's close. Kizer would have had 65 total yards last night, 6 pouts, and lost 2 fumbles. Kizer looks great when he makes a throw, because he has the perfect size. But he then follows up a good throw with missing 2 wide open receivers, throwing an inaccurate ball to the other, or sitting in the pocket for 8 seconds and getting sacked.

They've gone head to head once. In an absolute monster of a rain storm.

Kizer:
PASSING
19-34/321 Yds/2 TD/ 1 INT/9.4 Yd Ave.
RUSHING
55 Yds/14 Carries/1 TD

Watson:
PASSING
10-21/84 Yds/2TD/1 INT/4.0 Yd Ave.
RUSHING
93 Yds/16 Carries/ 1 TD

 

[ACamp1900]

I think they have about the same basic odds of succeeding at the next level... it's kind of a silly argument really...

 

[gkIrish]

They've gone head to head once. In an absolute monster of a rain storm.

Kizer:
PASSING
19-34/321 Yds/2 TD/ 1 INT/9.4 Yd Ave.
RUSHING
55 Yds/14 Carries/1 TD

Watson:
PASSING
10-21/84 Yds/2TD/1 INT/4.0 Yd Ave.
RUSHING
93 Yds/16 Carries/ 1 TD

Watson was top 5 in QBR each of the last two seasons, was a Heisman finalist both years, lost 2 games total, won a Championship, and has no major/obvious flaws.

I can't believe we are actually debating Watson v. Kizer right now. I know this is a Notre Dame site but come on people.

 

[koonja]

They've gone head to head once. In an absolute monster of a rain storm.

Kizer:
PASSING
19-34/321 Yds/2 TD/ 1 INT/9.4 Yd Ave.
RUSHING
55 Yds/14 Carries/1 TD

Watson:
PASSING
10-21/84 Yds/2TD/1 INT/4.0 Yd Ave.
RUSHING
93 Yds/16 Carries/ 1 TD

One game doesn't tell the story to me. And that it was head to head is irrelevant, it's not like Kizer was facing Watson or vice a versa.

 

[NDohio]

One game doesn't tell the story to me. And that it was head to head is irrelevant, it's not like Kizer was facing Watson or vice a versa.

Yep, you are right. Kizer was facing a much better defense...


If you want to say that Watson has a slight edge over DK, then I could understand that argument. To say Watson is better and "it's not even close" or that "Kizer would have had 65 total yards last night, 6 pouts, and lost 2 fumbles" then I think you are off your meds again.

 

[koonja]

Yep, you are right. Kizer was facing a much better defense...


If you want to say that Watson has a slight edge over DK, then I could understand that argument. To say Watson is better and "it's not even close" or that "Kizer would have had 65 total yards last night, 6 pouts, and lost 2 fumbles" then I think you are off your meds again.

I don't think there will be more than 2 of the 32 teams that have Kizer higher on their boards. I'd consider that not close. I'd say all 32 teams, but you have to leave room for the Browns + some other wacko team.