2016 Presidential Horse Race

[EddytoNow]

When I was at Notre Dame, I lived in a $400 per month apartment, utilities included. I was the only student in the building. Most of my neighbors were fixed income, disabled veterans, and the otherwise impoverished. Then I moved to Florida for three years. I've lived in Connecticut for two.

Any other theories?

Your lack of empathy for the working poor suggests one of two things, either you don't care or you don't have a full understanding of the living conditions these people struggle with on a daily basis. Posters on here have been giving you the benefit of the doubt by suggesting that you don't understand how deeply the poor are entrenched in the cycle of poverty. I welcome your response. Please tell me how the poor can improve their lot without better paying job opportunities. They can't afford college, and even a college degree is no assurance of getting more than minimum wage employment. Your life in an apartment in South Bend for 4 years hardly parallels daily life on 8-Mile Road in Detroit or Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota. Two different worlds. One (attendance at Notre Dame) a temporary condition leading to a high-paying job. The other (spending a lifetime in a slum or on a reservation) a life sentence.

Before you ask, I lived for a time on an Indian Reservation in Northeast Arizona. I also spent part of my teaching career in the Appalachian foothills of Southeast Ohio, where many of the students didn't have indoor restroom facilities in their homes. I spent time in their homes, ate meals at their table, and conversed with them and their parents at the local restaurant. One of the old-timers was an unemployed coal miner with black lung disease. He would meet any definition you have a being poor, and had spent a good part of his life earning a good wage underground. When his health failed, so did his good paying job. Both the reservation and Appalachian Ohio had large unemployment rates. I, also, grew up around the corner from Scott High School in Toledo. Bogtrotter or Buster Bluth can tell you what kind of neighborhood that is, but even that is no parallel for what large numbers of poor people endure on a daily basis. My father had opportunities to earn a good wage. He paid tuition so we could attend the local Catholic high school (the same high school DeShone Kizer graduated from by the way) and moved the family out of that neighborhood and into the suburbs. We joined the middle class. Those opportunities don't exist for most poor people anymore. I've lived and worked with some very poor people, but I wouldn't presume to understand how they deal with the poverty year after year. I could always leave. They were stuck there.

So other than blaming the poor for their own condition, what do we do to help them?

 

[GoIrish41]

When I was at Notre Dame, I lived in a $400 per month apartment, utilities included. I was the only student in the building. Most of my neighbors were fixed income, disabled veterans, and the otherwise impoverished. Then I moved to Florida for three years. I've lived in Connecticut for two.

Any other theories?

So, other than spending your days attending one of the nation's most prestigious universities how were your circumstances unique from your neighbors? Did you hang out with them? Did you learn anything about them? Why they ended up there? If they had any dreams to get out of their predicaments? Or did you act as you do on here ... superior in every way to the lazy poor who would succeed if only they had your work ethic and intellect? I mean, it only counts if you paid attention and learned from the experience. I lived in a run down house with five other guys in college and I suspect that many others did as well. I always knew something better was waiting on the other side of that lease and graduation. There are millions who live in worse conditions who have nothing to look forward to. The soul crushing lack of hope always seems to be the missing piece you fail to consider in your analysis of the plight of the poor.

 

[wizards8507]

My position is not, and has never been, "screw the working poor." That said, the first-order, knee-jerk solutions proposed by the bleeding hearts end up hurting the very people they're supposed to help. The minimum wage is not bad because it costs employers more money, it's bad because it drives unemployment among low skilled workers by making them unemployable.

The two policies that would most immediately help the working poor would be school choice and dramatically reduced immigration.

Sent from my Galaxy Note4 using Tapatalk.

 

[phgreek]

So, other than spending your days attending one of the nation's most prestigious universities how were your circumstances unique from your neighbors? Did you hang out with them? Did you learn anything about them? Why they ended up there? If they had any dreams to get out of their predicaments? Or did you act as you do on here ... superior in every way to the lazy poor who would succeed if only they had your work ethic and intellect? I mean, it only counts if you paid attention and learned from the experience. I lived in a run down house with five other guys in college and I suspect that many others did as well. I always knew something better was waiting on the other side of that lease and graduation. There are millions who live in worse conditions who have nothing to look forward to. The soul crushing lack of hope always seems to be the missing piece you fail to consider in your analysis of the plight of the poor.

I love this game...ya know where you do to him exactly what you guys are accusing him of doing.

Suffice it to say it is EXTREMELY likely I don't know what it is like to live in true poverty, and therefore it is hard for me to understand...however, you and I both know there is some truth to some of what is said here regarding family, instilling values, community, common vision, desire....THOSE ARE ALL FREE. You simply cannot give people a pass on the most basic pillars of success if you EVER hope for them to move forward. So YOU tell me how those things are being reinforced by writing a check and asking for more, or starting a war on the law enforcement community, or burning down your own fucking neighborhood. These are problems you can't solve without getting your hands dirty, and also ya need to be willing to hand out some tough love. I don't know everything, but I know what we are doing is NOT getting any kind of human or monetary ROI....and I have every right to demand we start to get some.

 

[GoIrish41]

I love this game...ya know where you do to him exactly what you guys are accusing him of doing.

Suffice it to say it is EXTREMELY likely I don't know what it is like to live in true poverty, and therefore it is hard for me to understand...however, you and I both know there is some truth to some of what is said here regarding family, instilling values, community, common vision, desire....THOSE ARE ALL FREE. You simply cannot give people a pass on the most basic pillars of success if you EVER hope for them to move forward. So YOU tell me how those things are being reinforced by writing a check and asking for more, or starting a war on the law enforcement community, or burning down your own fucking neighborhood. These are problems you can't solve without getting your hands dirty, and also ya need to be willing to hand out some tough love. I don't know everything, but I know what we are doing is NOT getting any kind of human or monetary ROI....and I have every right to demand we start to get some.

Certainly there is truth that teaching people what it takes to succeed in the world is a universal good, but pointing to symptoms of of the disease -- broken families, lack of community pride, a common vision, etc. -- is not the answer. Curing the disease should be the goal, no? What is causing families to break up, people lacking a positive community interest or vision? It's not some genetic flaw that affects a race of people. A large percentage of black people are poor, many live in deplorable conditions, they are poorly educated and lack opportunities. Their neighborhoods are dangerous and they fear the people who are supposed to be ensuring their safety. Poverty fueled despair and perceived national indifference (or outright hatred) could lead folks in a lot of negative directions. We, as a nation, should not be shocked that bad policies and institutional problems have led us to this place. But before tough love, I'd prefer to begin at compassion and a true willingness to try to fix the problems that exist. The problem with tough love is that its application tends to leave the impression having of one group of people exercising control over another, which of course, only makes things worse. If these problems are going to be solved it will be because all concerned have sought to understand the other and began the difficult task of healing.

 

[kmoose]

Certainly there is truth that teaching people what it takes to succeed in the world is a universal good, but pointing to symptoms of of the disease -- broken families, lack of community pride, a common vision, etc. -- is not the answer. Curing the disease should be the goal, no? What is causing families to break up, people lacking a positive community interest or vision. A large percentage of black people are poor, many live in deplorable conditions, they are poorly educated and lack opportunities. Their neighborhoods are dangerous and they fear the people who are supposed to be ensuring their safety. Poverty fueled despair and perceived national indifference (or outright hatred) could lead folks in a lot of negative directions. We, as a nation, should not be shocked that bad policies and institutional problems have led us to this place. But before tough love, I'd prefer to begin at compassion and a true willingness to try to fix the problems that exist. The problem with tough love is that its application tends to leave the impression having of one group of people exercising control over another, which of course, only makes things worse. If these problems are going to be solved it will be because all concerned have sought to understand the other and began the difficult task of healing.

And here is the big disconnect... Some people feel that what you call "symptoms", are actually some of the root causes of the continued poverty. Or at least they are obstacles to treating the disease.

While others think that highways and white privilege are the root causes.......

There is one side, and then there is the other. And the truth, as is usually the case, probably lies somewhere in between.

 

[Bubbles]

I think this requires some emergency measures:

*snip*

No Chuck Norris? Wtf man....

 

[kmoose]

No Chuck Norris? Wtf man....

Mea Culpa!

 

[phgreek]

Certainly there is truth that teaching people what it takes to succeed in the world is a universal good, but pointing to symptoms of of the disease -- broken families, lack of community pride, a common vision, etc. -- is not the answer. Curing the disease should be the goal, no? What is causing families to break up, people lacking a positive community interest or vision? It's not some genetic flaw that affects a race of people. A large percentage of black people are poor, many live in deplorable conditions, they are poorly educated and lack opportunities. Their neighborhoods are dangerous and they fear the people who are supposed to be ensuring their safety. Poverty fueled despair and perceived national indifference (or outright hatred) could lead folks in a lot of negative directions. We, as a nation, should not be shocked that bad policies and institutional problems have led us to this place. But before tough love, I'd prefer to begin at compassion and a true willingness to try to fix the problems that exist. The problem with tough love is that its application tends to leave the impression having of one group of people exercising control over another, which of course, only makes things worse. If these problems are going to be solved it will be because all concerned have sought to understand the other and began the difficult task of healing.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the diagnosis here

...but first...

Honestly, I think this discussion is a trap for conservatives... The liberal minded folks bring up the discussion based on racial lines, but when data is presented based upon those same racial lines which might question the wisdom of the Liberal approach...conservative folks are vilified and dealt a race card and a compassion card in quick succession...

Soooo... I don't think you can take anything I said and come away thinking I tagged a race of people with a genetic flaw...nor can you conclude my motivations are less noble/compassionate than yours if I seek the same outcome. I realize the race card is the go to like a jab to get an opponent off balance...but really not necessary here.


In keeping with my point...there is nothing inherent in being black that causes poverty...starting out in bad circumstances compounded by bad choices lead to lifelong poverty. You make it sound like compassion is the antithesis of accountability...and I think you could not be farther from the truth.

Further the tough love needs to come from community leaders. If that were happening the outside world might seem a little less "hateful".

You go nowhere w/o police...and it seems like there is indeed a war on police from the communities that need them the most.

Finally, broken families, lack of community pride, a common vision...those ARE the problem. You can't fix ANYTHING with ANY amount of money until the value system changes...

Pipe dream Alert....here it is...I bet if you took a square block in Detroit's worst neighborhood, and you said to folks...you can live here for free, but, you must be a nuclear family, you must not do drugs, you must either serve the block (police, crossing guard, tutor, general maintenance) or work in an outside job, you need to attend a once weekly block meeting (what used to be church), and you need to make sure your kids achieve in school, within two generations...they'd all have some children and grandchildren who got out.

So are these folks as far from getting their babies out of poverty as they think? Maybe I'm naive, but the one thing you cannot deny is that those who came before did much of the above...so I'll ask you again, isn't there anything we can take from those who've come before who were the down trodden...even if you must argue the details of "downtroddenness", or the degree of discrimination...isn't there anything but blame we can do to empower folks?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I wholeheartedly disagree with the diagnosis here

...but first...

Honestly, I think this discussion is a trap for conservatives... The liberal minded folks bring up the discussion based on racial lines, but when data is presented based upon those same racial lines which might question the wisdom of the Liberal approach...conservative folks are vilified and dealt a race card and a compassion card in quick succession...

Soooo... I don't think you can take anything I said and come away thinking I tagged a race of people with a genetic flaw...nor can you conclude my motivations are less noble/compassionate than yours if I seek the same outcome. I realize the race card is the go to like a jab to get an opponent off balance...but really not necessary here.


In keeping with my point...there is nothing inherent in being black that causes poverty...starting out in bad circumstances compounded by bad choices lead to lifelong poverty. You make it sound like compassion is the antithesis of accountability...and I think you could not be farther from the truth.

Further the tough love needs to come from community leaders. If that were happening the outside world might seem a little less "hateful".

You go nowhere w/o police...and it seems like there is indeed a war on police from the communities that need them the most.

Finally, broken families, lack of community pride, a common vision...those ARE the problem. You can't fix ANYTHING with ANY amount of money until the value system changes...

Pipe dream Alert....here it is...I bet if you took a square block in Detroit's worst neighborhood, and you said to folks...you can live here for free, but, you must be a nuclear family, you must not do drugs, you must either serve the block (police, crossing guard, tutor, general maintenance) or work in an outside job, you need to attend a once weekly block meeting (what used to be church), and you need to make sure your kids achieve in school, within two generations...they'd all have some children and grandchildren who got out.

So are these folks as far from getting their babies out of poverty as they think? Maybe I'm naive, but the one thing you cannot deny is that those who came before did much of the above...so I'll ask you again, isn't there anything we can take from those who've come before who were the down trodden...even if you must argue the details of "downtroddenness", or the degree of discrimination...isn't there anything but blame we can do to empower folks?

This is strong. Also...only 2% of people who do these 3 things live in poverty. It should be posted in every classroom in America.

1. finish high school
2. get a full-time job
3. wait until age 21 to get married and have children

 

[EddytoNow]

This is strong. Also...only 2% of people who do these 3 things live in poverty. It should be posted in every classroom in America.

1. finish high school
2. get a full-time job
3. wait until age 21 to get married and have children

The discussion here has centered around the 2nd requirement that you list, although I have qualified it by adding that it must be a good-paying job. If you're working 40 hours per week at minimum wage, you are still living in poverty. My position is that there are not enough good-paying full-time jobs to go around. Furthermore, there is nothing inherent in the culture of poor people that holds them back. They simply do not have the opportunities that used to exist.

I would also add that your first requirement above probably needs to be updated to "finish college", at least a two-year technical or vocational program. Once again, the poor are held back by lack of money, not some deficiency in their culture. A handful get scholarships, but there are not enough scholarships to fill the need. Most colleges award a few scholarships to economically needy students, but those scholarships are certainly not being offered to even a majority of those in need of one.

I will concede that number 3 is good-advice, but the problem is not limited to those who get married young. Large numbers of children are born out-of-wedlock. The rates of out-of-wedlock births may be higher in poor communities, but it is not limited to poor communities. Middle class families can more easily absorb the cost of a new-born. And poor families are less able to afford the cost of birth control.

 

[Ndaccountant]

The discussion here has centered around the 2nd requirement that you list, although I have qualified it by adding that it must be a good-paying job. If you're working 40 hours per week at minimum wage, you are still living in poverty. My position is that there are not enough good-paying full-time jobs to go around. Furthermore, there is nothing inherent in the culture of poor people that holds them back. They simply do not have the opportunities that used to exist.

I would also add that your first requirement above probably needs to be updated to "finish college", at least a two-year technical or vocational program. Once again, the poor are held back by lack of money, not some deficiency in their culture. A handful get scholarships, but there are not enough scholarships to fill the need. Most colleges award a few scholarships to economically needy students, but those scholarships are certainly not being offered to even a majority of those in need of one.

I will concede that number 3 is good-advice, but the problem is not limited to those who get married young. Large numbers of children are born out-of-wedlock. The rates of out-of-wedlock births may be higher in poor communities, but it is not limited to poor communities. Middle class families can more easily absorb the cost of a new-born. And poor families are less able to afford the cost of birth control.

Community and two year programs are essentially tuition free today. The only thing students need to pay for is living expenses, which they presumably would have had to pay otherwise.

 

[Wild Bill]

The discussion here has centered around the 2nd requirement that you list, although I have qualified it by adding that it must be a good-paying job. If you're working 40 hours per week at minimum wage, you are still living in poverty. My position is that there are not enough good-paying full-time jobs to go around. Furthermore, there is nothing inherent in the culture of poor people that holds them back. They simply do not have the opportunities that used to exist.

I would also add that your first requirement above probably needs to be updated to "finish college", at least a two-year technical or vocational program. Once again, the poor are held back by lack of money, not some deficiency in their culture. A handful get scholarships, but there are not enough scholarships to fill the need. Most colleges award a few scholarships to economically needy students, but those scholarships are certainly not being offered to even a majority of those in need of one.

I will concede that number 3 is good-advice, but the problem is not limited to those who get married young. Large numbers of children are born out-of-wedlock. The rates of out-of-wedlock births may be higher in poor communities, but it is not limited to poor communities. Middle class families can more easily absorb the cost of a new-born. And poor families are less able to afford the cost of birth control.

Learning a trade is free. They pay to serve in the military. Like NDAccountant stated, community college is essentially free. Opportunity is available.

 

[kmoose]

The discussion here has centered around the 2nd requirement that you list, although I have qualified it by adding that it must be a good-paying job. If you're working 40 hours per week at minimum wage, you are still living in poverty. My position is that there are not enough good-paying full-time jobs to go around. Furthermore, there is nothing inherent in the culture of poor people that holds them back. They simply do not have the opportunities that used to exist.

No, you aren't. The federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr. Multiply that by the standard 2080 hour work year, and you gross $15,080. The Federal Poverty Level is $11,880, for individuals. If you have children, and are doing your part by maintaining a family, then you can have 2 minimum wages incomes, for an annual gross of $30,160. The Federal Poverty Level for a family of 5 is $28,440! Minimum wage alone does NOT put you under the poverty level. It is minimum wage, PLUS poor decisions, that does!!

 

[EddytoNow]

Community and two year programs are essentially tuition free today. The only thing students need to pay for is living expenses, which they presumably would have had to pay otherwise.

I don't know where your statistics are based, but my own son who graduated from a 2-year program recently had no financial assistance, unless you are including student loans. And we all know how that program is working out.

And regarding the cost of room and board. If a poor student must pay for an apartment and food, that places a heavy burden on a poor family. If they lived at home, there would be no additional expense for living accommodations (the family already has that expense). So the family would have to come up with a few hundred dollars a month to pay rent or invest in an automobile so their son or daughter can drive back and forth to school on a daily basis and to work at their minimum wage job.

Either way, a family that has no extra cash lying around must come up with a few hundred dollars each month to either: 1.) Pay rent for their son or daughter to live closer to college or 2.) Buy an additional car and pay car insurance so their son or daughter can drive back and forth to school and work. They have the money to do neither.

 

[GoIrish41]

Honestly, I think this discussion is a trap for conservatives... The liberal minded folks bring up the discussion based on racial lines, but when data is presented based upon those same racial lines which might question the wisdom of the Liberal approach...conservative folks are vilified and dealt a race card and a compassion card in quick succession...

Soooo... I don't think you can take anything I said and come away thinking I tagged a race of people with a genetic flaw...nor can you conclude my motivations are less noble/compassionate than yours if I seek the same outcome. I realize the race card is the go to like a jab to get an opponent off balance...but really not necessary here.

Nor did I suggest that they could. The point is that a large part of a racial group is having the same difficulties, the same "symptoms." Why? What is causing this to happen? That should be where the focus is. When you go to the doctor for an ailment, what is the first thing your doctor does? He examines you, asks you questions about "what hurts?" "what is causing you to limp, or have headaches?", or whatever the problem is. During that discussion, the doctor begins to think through the inputs in your life that may be contributing to the ailment. He can't do that without the conversation and he may order tests to discover what the physical problems are that are causing your ailment.

What I'm suggesting is that the same thing needs to occur when it comes to racial problems in the country. The first step is to examine the problem. We can talk about the sore ankle or the headaches all day long, just as we can talk about lack of community pride and breakup of the family unit. Inevitably, we are going to have to answer the questions "How did this happen?" "When did this start?" "From 1 to 10, how bad is the pain?" The doctor isn't going to give us an Advil for the headache without understanding what is causing the headache. Maybe it is a brain tumor.

Once he understands the nature of the pain, how long its been going on, and if there is a single traumatic event that caused the headache in the first place, he will probably order some tests to find out what the actual problem is that is causing the symptoms. With race, we should be doing the same thing. And yes, if the patient is experiencing headaches every morning, and it turns out that it is because he is drinking a fifth of vodka every night, the doctor must advise the patient of the peril of doing so. He might even suggest a rehab program if the problem is too far along. But, even though the symptoms may appear to be the same as a hangover, if the patient doesn't drink, there may be another cause. Doctors don't send everyone to rehab who complains of headaches. That would be irresponsible -- even insulting to the patient. Assumptions are not always facts.

If you feel trapped as a conservative in these conversations, perhaps it is because the people you are debating have a point. I certainly didn't "pull the race card" in my post, so if you feel trapped by what I said, perhaps you are filling in around my words and projecting something on them that was not there. Just as you feel that you are "vilified and dealt a race card and a compassion card in quick succession," the accusation that everyone is accusing you of being a racist every time they disagree with a point in a discussion about race gets old, too. The "compassion card," as you put it, is a path forward that, in my view, is the only solution that has a shot at helping. Again, the tough love demonstrates that one group of people has the power to bend another group of people to their will. And if one group of people feels put upon by the other already, I believe that it would be viewed as doubling down on oppressive behaviors that have plagued their communities forever.

All this to say, the problems that are causing the "symptoms" are happening for a reason. Unless we acknowledge that the underlying problems might be causing the symptoms, we are always going to keep having headaches. Establishing trust and understanding is the way to solve the problem. Cut out the tumor and the headaches will probably go away once the healing starts.

 

[kmoose]

Nor did I suggest that they could. The point is that a large part of a racial group is having the same difficulties, the same "symptoms." Why? What is causing this to happen? That should be where the focus is. When you go to the doctor for an ailment, what is the first thing your doctor does? He examines you, asks you questions about "what hurts?" "what is causing you to limp, or have headaches?", or whatever the problem is. During that discussion, the doctor begins to think through the inputs in your life that may be contributing to the ailment. He can't do that without the conversation and he may order tests to discover what the physical problems are that are causing your ailment.

What I'm suggesting is that the same thing needs to occur when it comes to racial problems in the country. The first step is to examine the problem. We can talk about the sore ankle or the headaches all day long, just as we can talk about lack of community pride and breakup of the family unit. Inevitably, we are going to have to answer the questions "How did this happen?" "When did this start?" "From 1 to 10, how bad is the pain?" The doctor isn't going to give us an Advil for the headache without understanding what is causing the headache. Maybe it is a brain tumor.

Once he understands the nature of the pain, how long its been going on, and if there is a single traumatic event that caused the headache in the first place, he will probably order some tests to find out what the actual problem is that is causing the symptoms. With race, we should be doing the same thing. And yes, if the patient is experiencing headaches every morning, and it turns out that it is because he is drinking a fifth of vodka every night, the doctor must advise the patient of the peril of doing so. He might even suggest a rehab program if the problem is too far along. But, even though the symptoms may appear to be the same as a hangover, if the patient doesn't drink, there may be another cause. Doctors don't send everyone to rehab who complains of headaches. That would be irresponsible -- even insulting to the patient. Assumptions are not always facts.

If you feel trapped as a conservative in these conversations, perhaps it is because the people you are debating have a point. I certainly didn't "pull the race card" in my post, so if you feel trapped by what I said, perhaps you are filling in around my words and projecting something on them that was not there. Just as you feel that you are "vilified and dealt a race card and a compassion card in quick succession," the accusation that everyone is accusing you of being a racist every time they disagree with a point in a discussion about race gets old, too. The "compassion card," as you put it, is a path forward that, in my view, is the only solution that has a shot at helping. Again, the tough love demonstrates that one group of people has the power to bend another group of people to their will. And if one group of people feels put upon by the other already, I believe that it would be viewed as doubling down on oppressive behaviors that have plagued their communities forever.

All this to say, the problems that are causing the "symptoms" are happening for a reason. Unless we acknowledge that the underlying problems might be causing the symptoms, we are always going to keep having headaches. Establishing trust and understanding is the way to solve the problem. Cut out the tumor and the headaches will probably go away once the healing starts.

The problem with all of this is............

I certainly didn't "pull the race card" in my post, so if you feel trapped by what I said, perhaps you are filling in around my words and projecting something on them that was not there.

You may not think that you "pulled the race card", but you most certainly are debating about race, thereby making it about race:

What I'm suggesting is that the same thing needs to occur when it comes to racial problems in the country. The first step is to examine the problem. We can talk about the sore ankle or the headaches all day long, just as we can talk about lack of community pride and breakup of the family unit. Inevitably, we are going to have to answer the questions "How did this happen?" "When did this start?" "From 1 to 10, how bad is the pain?" The doctor isn't going to give us an Advil for the headache without understanding what is causing the headache. Maybe it is a brain tumor.

You aren't debating poverty issues, here; you're debating race issues.......... and that is straight from your own mouth. As long as you continue to negotiate in bad faith, people will continue to feel like the discussion is nothing more than a trap.

By the way............. what does a doctor do when a patient keeps coming back to him asking for pain meds? He probably prescribes rehab, where they teach the patient to substitute other things for the drugs. So how about we substitute nuclear families, good family values, a sense of pride in the neighborhood, etc., to treat the poor who are addicted to government/society handouts? Or at least ask them to meet us halfway?

 

[Bubbles]

The discussion here has centered around the 2nd requirement that you list, although I have qualified it by adding that it must be a good-paying job. If you're working 40 hours per week at minimum wage, you are still living in poverty. My position is that there are not enough good-paying full-time jobs to go around. Furthermore, there is nothing inherent in the culture of poor people that holds them back. They simply do not have the opportunities that used to exist.

I could not disagree with the bolded more. My experience with living in an area with a large poor population is that they live paycheck to paycheck by living WELL above their means. New expensive cars, Louis Vuitton EVERYTHING, expensive dinners, eating out every night and buying everything under the sun to keep up with the Joneses. Every single used car dealership was littered with barely used Range Rovers, BMW 7 series, Merc 500s and SUVs that had been repossessed because they couldn't afford the payments. So, I don't have a lot of sympathy for people that make piss poor life decisions and play the victim card.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I don't know where your statistics are based, but my own son who graduated from a 2-year program recently had no financial assistance, unless you are including student loans. And we all know how that program is working out.

And regarding the cost of room and board. If a poor student must pay for an apartment and food, that places a heavy burden on a poor family. If they lived at home, there would be no additional expense for living accommodations (the family already has that expense). So the family would have to come up with a few hundred dollars a month to pay rent or invest in an automobile so their son or daughter can drive back and forth to school on a daily basis and to work at their minimum wage job.

Either way, a family that has no extra cash lying around must come up with a few hundred dollars each month to either: 1.) Pay rent for their son or daughter to live closer to college or 2.) Buy an additional car and pay car insurance so their son or daughter can drive back and forth to school and work. They have the money to do neither.

The chart indicates the data is derived from the college board. I have no idea what your income quartile is, so I can't speak to your specific situation. However, the college board is generally well regarded when it comes to reporting things like this.

As far as living expenses go....most community colleges are close enough to residences that additional rent is not needed. The American Association of Community Colleges reports that the average distance traveled from home for a 2 year program student is 8 miles. So, I don't buy the additional rent burden as a "need", though it may be a "want". I will partially concede the transportation issue, but that largely depends on the of availability of local public transportation.

http://www.aacc.nche.edu/Publications/datapoints/Documents/DP_StayingHome.pdf

 

[irishroo]

All this to say, the problems that are causing the "symptoms" are happening for a reason. Unless we acknowledge that the underlying problems might be causing the symptoms, we are always going to keep having headaches. Establishing trust and understanding is the way to solve the problem. Cut out the tumor and the headaches will probably go away once the healing starts.

I think this is really the root of the entire argument. Those on the right typically feel that cyclical poverty is a symptom of the breakup of the family, apathy towards the community, lack of strong role models, etc. Those on the left typically believe that cyclical poverty is the cause of the breakup of the family, apathy towards the community, lack of strong role models, etc. I don't know which is correct, or if either one is, but that's really the contentious point here, at least in my mind.

 

[ACamp1900]

I could not disagree with the bolded more. My experience with living in an area with a large poor population is that they live paycheck to paycheck by living WELL above their means. New expensive cars, Louis Vuitton EVERYTHING, expensive dinners, eating out every night and buying everything under the sun to keep up with the Joneses. Every single used car dealership was littered with barely used Range Rovers, BMW 7 series, Merc 500s and SUVs that had been repossessed because they couldn't afford the payments. So, I don't have a lot of sympathy for people that make piss poor life decisions and play the victim card.

Yeah that was a pretty ignorant comment,... The 'poverty mindset' is pretty well documented and written about... I'd suggest some Ruby Payne for those who think there is nothing different culturally about those in generational poverty.

** It's also something I struggle with, my family definitely fit 'generational poverty'... I got some grad degrees and really, honestly, got lucky, and I'm out... but I still see the symptoms holding my other family members, including my immediate family, back... At times I also find myself fighting some bad urges and or habits that clearly come from my early experiences,... it's an odd dynamic.

 

[RDU Irish]

I am amazed at the idea that people cannot work AND go to school. Purely offensive for those of us that did.

Is it really too much to think a minimum wage worker ONLY working 40 hours per week can't pick up a night class or two and advance toward a degree?

The real problem - actually showing up to any job sober and on time is asking too much of a huge portion of our population. If you want to live that way, fine - I just don't see why any government assistance is available for those choosing that route.

 

[ACamp1900]

I am amazed at the idea that people cannot work AND go to school. Purely offensive for those of us that did.

Is it really too much to think a minimum wage worker ONLY working 40 hours per week can't pick up a night class or two and advance toward a degree?

This is me exactly, fiberglass tubs, carpet, pizza delivery, bar tender,.. anything I could find to help make ends meet while I was in school,... it's far from impossible.

 

[phgreek]

Nor did I suggest that they could. The point is that a large part of a racial group is having the same difficulties, the same "symptoms." Why? What is causing this to happen? That should be where the focus is. When you go to the doctor for an ailment, what is the first thing your doctor does? He examines you, asks you questions about "what hurts?" "what is causing you to limp, or have headaches?", or whatever the problem is. During that discussion, the doctor begins to think through the inputs in your life that may be contributing to the ailment. He can't do that without the conversation and he may order tests to discover what the physical problems are that are causing your ailment.

What I'm suggesting is that the same thing needs to occur when it comes to racial problems in the country. The first step is to examine the problem. We can talk about the sore ankle or the headaches all day long, just as we can talk about lack of community pride and breakup of the family unit. Inevitably, we are going to have to answer the questions "How did this happen?" "When did this start?" "From 1 to 10, how bad is the pain?" The doctor isn't going to give us an Advil for the headache without understanding what is causing the headache. Maybe it is a brain tumor.

Once he understands the nature of the pain, how long its been going on, and if there is a single traumatic event that caused the headache in the first place, he will probably order some tests to find out what the actual problem is that is causing the symptoms. With race, we should be doing the same thing. And yes, if the patient is experiencing headaches every morning, and it turns out that it is because he is drinking a fifth of vodka every night, the doctor must advise the patient of the peril of doing so. He might even suggest a rehab program if the problem is too far along. But, even though the symptoms may appear to be the same as a hangover, if the patient doesn't drink, there may be another cause. Doctors don't send everyone to rehab who complains of headaches. That would be irresponsible -- even insulting to the patient. Assumptions are not always facts.

If you feel trapped as a conservative in these conversations, perhaps it is because the people you are debating have a point. I certainly didn't "pull the race card" in my post, so if you feel trapped by what I said, perhaps you are filling in around my words and projecting something on them that was not there. Just as you feel that you are "vilified and dealt a race card and a compassion card in quick succession," the accusation that everyone is accusing you of being a racist every time they disagree with a point in a discussion about race gets old, too. The "compassion card," as you put it, is a path forward that, in my view, is the only solution that has a shot at helping. Again, the tough love demonstrates that one group of people has the power to bend another group of people to their will. And if one group of people feels put upon by the other already, I believe that it would be viewed as doubling down on oppressive behaviors that have plagued their communities forever.

All this to say, the problems that are causing the "symptoms" are happening for a reason. Unless we acknowledge that the underlying problems might be causing the symptoms, we are always going to keep having headaches. Establishing trust and understanding is the way to solve the problem. Cut out the tumor and the headaches will probably go away once the healing starts.

You said

"It's not some genetic flaw that affects a race of people. "

...and

"But before tough love, I'd prefer to begin at compassion and a true willingness to try to fix the problems that exist. "

and I told you my motivations are the same as yours, thus racism and compassion criticisms are misplaced here.

We see the world in a a fundamentally different way regarding poverty, and escaping it. You keep doing your thing, and I'll keep doing mine and hopefully someone benefits.

 

[RDU Irish]

This is me exactly, fiberglass tubs, carpet, pizza delivery, bar tender,.. anything I could find to help make ends meet while I was in school,... it's far from impossible.

And so much easier as an undergrad - I still had ample down time to be an idiot.

My wife and I both completed advanced degrees after having kids while both of us worked full time - and it would not have been possible without student loans. Now we are frowned upon for being successful - well that shit didn't fall from the sky.

 

[ND NYC]

Go Irish!

 

[GoIrish41]

You may not think that you "pulled the race card", but you most certainly are debating about race, thereby making it about race:



You aren't debating poverty issues, here; you're debating race issues.......... and that is straight from your own mouth. As long as you continue to negotiate in bad faith, people will continue to feel like the discussion is nothing more than a trap.

We have been debating poverty and race since yesterday, man. And I didn't bring race into the conversation ... the guy who I was talking to did when he said ...

" ... you and I both know there is some truth to some of what is said here regarding family, instilling values, community, common vision, desire....THOSE ARE ALL FREE. You simply cannot give people a pass on the most basic pillars of success if you EVER hope for them to move forward. So YOU tell me how those things are being reinforced by writing a check and asking for more, or starting a war on the law enforcement community, or burning down your own fucking neighborhood"

Who do you think he was talking about when he brought up "starting a war on police" and "burning down [their] own fucking neighborhood?" I'm not offended or put off because race was brought into the conversation. I don't understand why it bothers you guys so much. Heck, I'm not sure we can speak intelligently about poverty in this country without talking about race. The number of people who are in poverty in minority communities is staggering.

 

[connor_in]

Hillary Clinton's Lead Over Trump Shrinks After Controversial Week: Poll - NBC News

 

[GoIrish41]

Hillary Clinton's Lead Over Trump Shrinks After Controversial Week: Poll - NBC News

She'll get a bump from Bernie's endorsement today, and will start to pull away after the Dem convention.

 

[phgreek]

We have been debating poverty and race since yesterday, man. And I didn't bring race into the conversation ... the guy who I was talking to did when he said ...

" ... you and I both know there is some truth to some of what is said here regarding family, instilling values, community, common vision, desire....THOSE ARE ALL FREE. You simply cannot give people a pass on the most basic pillars of success if you EVER hope for them to move forward. So YOU tell me how those things are being reinforced by writing a check and asking for more, or starting a war on the law enforcement community, or burning down your own fucking neighborhood"

Who do you think he was talking about when he brought up "starting a war on police" and "burning down [their] own fucking neighborhood?" I'm not offended or put off because race was brought into the conversation. I don't understand why it bothers you guys so much. Heck, I'm not sure we can speak intelligently about poverty in this country without talking about race. The number of people who are in poverty in minority communities is staggering.

I was talking about people who lived in that neighborhood...see, I think somewhere in the discussion we transitioned from a race discussion to a poverty discussion as someone mentioned race isn't a big factor for those in poverty...even if those in poverty are disparately black...once you are there, getting out is really hard no matter your race. But if you took it to mean the those black people, them, the enemy "their"...thats kinda my point.

Edit: also the race component of the issue with cops, shooting cops, cops shooting citizens is not debatable, but in my context I was talking about people stuck in poverty attacking the police they need to have a safe existence to get out of poverty.