2016 Fall Camp Thread

Shamrock Theories

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I'm not hopping on the Koon train but man. I just am so bummed about Alize.

I'm honestly not excited about the WR group and I feel like a lineup of:
X: Torri
Y: Alize
TE: Smythe
TE: Weishar/Luatua

or

X: Torri
Y: Alize
Z: Sanders or other
TE: Smythe/Weishar/Luatua

Would have been so versatile and deadly

Sad face
 

ulukinatme

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I'm not hopping on the Koon train but man. I just am so bummed about Alize.

I'm honestly not excited about the WR group and I feel like a lineup of:
X: Torri
Y: Alize
TE: Smythe
TE: Weishar/Luatua


or

X: Torri
Y: Alize
Z: Sanders or other
TE: Smythe/Weishar/Luatua

Would have been so versatile and deadly

Sad face

Did we run this in the spring? I can't see us ever running a lineup with 3 TEs on the field. That limits our speed and ability to stretch the field. The only scenario I can imagine doing something like that would be to go power against a team like Navy.
 

arrowryan

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This came from 247's Thursday practice repot. Weisher was the #1 alpha dog


Not to sell Durham Smythe short, but Weishar is having another strong fall campaign catching the ball. When matched in space with a linebacker, he is giving some of Notre Dame’s second level guys trouble. Brandon Wimbush found him during 7 on 7 on a corner route, among many other catches in 1 v 1s and combo 7s situations. The growth at the QB position has helped increase tight end targets.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Did we run this in the spring? I can't see us ever running a lineup with 3 TEs on the field. That limits our speed and ability to stretch the field. The only scenario I can imagine doing something like that would be to go power against a team like Navy.

And if we ever chose to trot out 13/ "Heavy" personnel, we wouldn't be using that combination of TEs.
 
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condoms SUCk

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I'm not hopping on the Koon train but man. I just am so bummed about Alize.

I'm honestly not excited about the WR group and I feel like a lineup of:
X: Torri
Y: Alize
TE: Smythe
TE: Weishar/Luatua

or

X: Torri
Y: Alize
Z: Sanders or other
TE: Smythe/Weishar/Luatua

Would have been so versatile and deadly

Sad face

Yup, same here.

Yes, we have good TE's, and Alize would have been a HUGE (Trump style huge) weapon.

We'll be ok at TE with who we have, but IMO, TE's will be utilized more in the run game this year than passing game now that Alize is out.

#LEAVEKOONALONELEAVEHIMALONE
 

ulukinatme

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This came from 247's Thursday practice repot. Weisher was the #1 alpha dog

Not to sell Durham Smythe short, but Weishar is having another strong fall campaign catching the ball. When matched in space with a linebacker, he is giving some of Notre Dame’s second level guys trouble. Brandon Wimbush found him during 7 on 7 on a corner route, among many other catches in 1 v 1s and combo 7s situations. The growth at the QB position has helped increase tight end targets.

Interesting. We've made comments how the TEs have been getting lower numbers in receptions each year since Eifert left, but maybe some of that is due to a lack of experience/lack of chemistry with QBs?

Nah, I'm still going to say it's Booker's fault.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Interesting. We've made comments how the TEs have been getting lower numbers in receptions each year since Eifert left, but maybe some of that is due to a lack of experience/lack of chemistry with QBs?

Nah, I'm still going to say it's Booker's fault.

It's mostly due to the massively unrealized potential of Ben Koyack. Whether that's Ben's fault or Booker's... dunno yet. 2016 should help us sort that out, though.
 

IrishLax

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Sometimes scheme is the number one reason why players lack production. For example, OJ Howard at Bama has everything a TE is supposed to have. But his production has basically been non-existent in his career at Bama (with the Clemson game excepted) because of what he is asked to do. He's asked to block, and he's almost never the primary option on passing plays in favor of their typically dominant WRs.

So you always have to ask yourself how much of the problem is utilization and how much of the problem is talent? With Koyack, I think he was just disappointingly not that talented. And last year, I think once Smythe went down they just said "look... we have CJ Prosise, Will Fuller, etc. let's get the ball in the hands of our best players." So we don't really know what we have or don't have with Smythe/Weishar.

I do know that in Weishar's case the problem was that he wasn't strong/big enough when he arrived to play the position, and then he apparently put on bad weight. So he had one year of scout team duty while getting bigger, and then last year he was always supposed to be an afterthought... and he was ill-suited to be either the primary blocking or receiving TE. It's totally reasonable that he could as an upperclassman be in correct shape and ready to be a very productive player.
 

ThePiombino

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The problem with Mike Frank's analysis is it completely depends on how his neurons are firing on a particular day.

The problem with Koon's analysis is that he is relying on someone whose analysis is it completely dependent on how his neurons are firing on a particular day. Also, as Koon himself has admitted in the past, doesn't know the first thing about breaking down HS film.
 

dublinirish

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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nTTUGKkRaHc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

Domina Nostra

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In an interview yesterday, Jay Hayes was talking about playing WDE and his responsibilities when he drops back into coverage.

Ugghh. I'm fine with that as a wrinkle, and I am fine with Hayes standing in a zone every once in a while to confuse a QB, but Jay Hayes can't actually cover anyone--never ever. I hope he doesn't actually think he can.

It's starting to feel like the mythical CAT linebacking position Diaco had. There wasn't anyone outside of the NFL who actually met the requirements for that position. If Daelen Hayes isn't the guy, no one will ever be.
 

kmoose

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In an interview yesterday, Jay Hayes was talking about playing WDE and his responsibilities when he drops back into coverage.

Ugghh. I'm fine with that as a wrinkle, and I am fine with Hayes standing in a zone every once in a while to confuse a QB, but Jay Hayes can't actually cover anyone--never ever. I hope he doesn't actually think he can.

I'm not in the meetings/practices, so I can't say for sure that this is BVG's thinking, but usually when a DE end "drops into coverage", he isn't actually covering anyone. He's just blocking a throwing lane so that opposing offenses can't run a "hot read" quick slant or something, to beat the blitz.
 

Rizzophil

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I'm not in the meetings/practices, so I can't say for sure that this is BVG's thinking, but usually when a DE end "drops into coverage", he isn't actually covering anyone. He's just blocking a throwing lane so that opposing offenses can't run a "hot read" quick slant or something, to beat the blitz.

Thats what i see too
 

woolybug25

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I'm not in the meetings/practices, so I can't say for sure that this is BVG's thinking, but usually when a DE end "drops into coverage", he isn't actually covering anyone. He's just blocking a throwing lane so that opposing offenses can't run a "hot read" quick slant or something, to beat the blitz.

Yep. Super en vogue in the NFL right now with all of the quick pass offenses around the league. Try to get pressure up the middle, then clog every dump off option when the QB bails on the pocket. It is pretty smart tactic when combined with a good pass rush. Therein lies the problem...
 

dublinirish

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I'm not in the meetings/practices, so I can't say for sure that this is BVG's thinking, but usually when a DE end "drops into coverage", he isn't actually covering anyone. He's just blocking a throwing lane so that opposing offenses can't run a "hot read" quick slant or something, to beat the blitz.

gotta cover the guy who comes into your zone though. Playing Zone isnt about just back pedalling a few yards and then standing there hoping to grab Int's
 
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koonja

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One of the highlight videos showed Zaire running the option. If that package is just for Zaire, I like it. Kizer starts, Malik comes in and has the whole play book, but teams have to prepare for the option as well.

Imagine being a defensive coordinator and having to prepare for ND and Navy at the same time. Obviously our option wouldn't run out of a formation as condensed as Navy's, but still, would be awful to play for spread offense + option.
 

dublinirish

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One of the highlight videos showed Zaire running the option. If that package is just for Zaire, I like it. Kizer starts, Malik comes in and has the whole play book, but teams have to prepare for the option as well.

Imagine being a defensive coordinator and having to prepare for ND and Navy at the same time. Obviously our option wouldn't run out of a formation as condensed as Navy's, but still, would be awful to play for spread offense + option.

Kizer can run an option too though.
 

arrowryan

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One of the highlight videos showed Zaire running the option. If that package is just for Zaire, I like it. Kizer starts, Malik comes in and has the whole play book, but teams have to prepare for the option as well.

Imagine being a defensive coordinator and having to prepare for ND and Navy at the same time. Obviously our option wouldn't run out of a formation as condensed as Navy's, but still, would be awful to play for spread offense + option.

Bingo. This is why both need to play. I can see some plays where Zaire and *insert running back here* run as if it is an option play and then the cornerback bites super hard leaving someone like Torii wide the f open for a long touchdown.
 

woolybug25

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gotta cover the guy who comes into your zone though. Playing Zone isnt about just back pedalling a few yards and then standing there hoping to grab Int's

They're not actually covering a player, per se. They are filling a passing lane so the ball can't be dumped off to anyone behind them in that lane. We aren't asking a defensive end to cover a slot receiver. We are asking a defensive end to stand in an area that forces any receiver to move from that window. If the QB is being hurried and his usual dump off option has a 6'5" dude standing in front of it, he will have to check down somewhere else. Which will eventually get him sacked.

It's the evolution of asking your lineman to throw their hands in the air when they get stood up so the QB has to throw over them.
 

dublinirish

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They're not actually covering a player, per se. They are filling a passing lane so the ball can't be dumped off to anyone behind them in that lane. We aren't asking a defensive end to cover a slot receiver. We are asking a defensive end to stand in an area that forces any receiver to move from that window. If the QB is being hurried and his usual dump off option has a 6'5" dude standing in front of it, he will have to check down somewhere else. Which will eventually get him sacked.

It's the evolution of asking your lineman to throw their hands in the air when they get stood up so the QB has to throw over them.

If you are in zone coverage and a receiver comes into your zone then you cover him through your zone as if you were in man coverage. BVG does not just ask his DL to play a zone at the line of scrimmage he expects them to drop to hook/curl and flats etc.
 

dublinirish

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He can, but Kizer is better at it and with the option, you're taking more of a risk of injury to the QB. IDK if you want to open that risk up to both QBs.

bringing in zaire would be telegraphing the playcall to the defense in that scenario though no?

Also Zaire is the one with the track record that got himself hurt while running, not Kizer.
 

Domina Nostra

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They're not actually covering a player, per se. They are filling a passing lane so the ball can't be dumped off to anyone behind them in that lane. We aren't asking a defensive end to cover a slot receiver. We are asking a defensive end to stand in an area that forces any receiver to move from that window. If the QB is being hurried and his usual dump off option has a 6'5" dude standing in front of it, he will have to check down somewhere else. Which will eventually get him sacked.

It's the evolution of asking your lineman to throw their hands in the air when they get stood up so the QB has to throw over them.

And it makes perfect sense as a wrinkle when, as you said, the other team has a pass rush and the QB is hurried. If you watch how often we went to that look last year, however, its a little concerning.

It's like play action, it works if you've established a running game. If you haven't, it's not a great excuse that a lot of the best teams use it effectively.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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One of the highlight videos showed Zaire running the option. If that package is just for Zaire, I like it. Kizer starts, Malik comes in and has the whole play book, but teams have to prepare for the option as well.

Imagine being a defensive coordinator and having to prepare for ND and Navy at the same time. Obviously our option wouldn't run out of a formation as condensed as Navy's, but still, would be awful to play for spread offense + option.

I agree with this. If Kizer wins, which I'm assuming, it'd be great to see Zaire get in a couple drives/game to run a different subset of the offense. A few misdirections/trick plays and the option coupled with a smattering of typical plays that Zaire runs well, ie - moving the pocket.
 

dang227

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I'm not in the meetings/practices, so I can't say for sure that this is BVG's thinking, but usually when a DE end "drops into coverage", he isn't actually covering anyone. He's just blocking a throwing lane so that opposing offenses can't run a "hot read" quick slant or something, to beat the blitz.



He is actually covering a zone. Usual responsibilities include walking off receivers and forcing them vertical.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
K

koonja

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bringing in zaire would be telegraphing the playcall to the defense in that scenario though no?

Also Zaire is the one with the track record that got himself hurt while running, not Kizer.

I don't think so because like I said, Zaire has the whole play book too. He can run the option or take a shotgun snap.

I know - But regardless of past injury, I think you only run the option with 1 (doesn't matter which) because you don't want to expose both. Since Zaire is the best option QB, it'd be him.
 

Domina Nostra

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He is actually covering a zone. Usual responsibilities include walking off receivers and forcing them vertical.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Once again, this makes sense a few times a game. I think we over-used it last year. Jay Hayes can't play a position where coverage is a semi-regular part of his responsibilities. If he could at 285, he'd go in the first couple rounds! :)
 

arrowryan

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bringing in zaire would be telegraphing the playcall to the defense in that scenario though no?

Also Zaire is the one with the track record that got himself hurt while running, not Kizer.

So you think they would put 8 in the box because they will be looking for option plays? Well, I hope they put 8 in the box because we all know what Zaire can do with his arm.
 
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