2015 PRE SEASON CAMP THREAD

[Wild Bill]

Can someone explain to me the difference between the 2 DT's in our 4-3?

I expected Jay Hayes to fill in as starter when Jarron went down, but sounds like he's specifically only backing up the other DT.

Sounds like it's Tillery, Cage at one spot, then Day and Hayes at the other, and they're not interchangeable.

Generally speaking, BVG's system has the 1 tech on the strong side. The most basic plays in every offense is the strong side run game. A double team on the strong side, usually on the strong side DT, is where it all starts. The offense is trying to get movement from the DT up to the mike linebacker. It's the key battle in almost every game. If you can't move the DT, the mike scrapes over easily and shuts down the run game. If the double team can get movement on the DT, it makes it easy to chip off the double and latch on to the mike or the mike gets caught in the wash (basically the bodies getting driven backward). If the DT is getting driven with consistency, it'll be a long day for the defense.

The three tech isn't as burdened by the possibility of a double team (though it happens). He's more concerned with controlling his one gap and disturbing the offense with quick penetration. Day is perfect for the system for three reasons: 1. He's quick off the snap. If he is shooting a gap, he's almost always a step in front of the offensive lineman. That's rare and anyone that has played on the offensive line knows how difficult it is to stop a three tech that is one step ahead of you into the gap. Leads to a lot of holding calls. 2. He's also ridiculously good at disengaging blockers. In a two gap system, you can't be so quick to disengage b/c you have to protect both gaps. One gap gives you the freedom to shake a blocker as quick as possible to get in the gap. 3. He's short, stocky and powerful. When he crosses the linemen's face as he slants into the gap, there is nothing to grab. It's just demoralizing for an offensive lineman when it happens. The guy literally trucks past you and you can't do shit. Day is just too compact and too powerful to stop at times, even when he has to cross the lineman's face and his body is completely exposed to the blocker. He's going to be disruptive as hell.

1 tech has to be stout and hold the point of attack. 3 tech has to disrupt with penetration.

 

[RDU Irish]

Generally speaking, BVG's system has the 1 tech on the strong side. The most basic plays in every offense is the strong side run game. A double team on the strong side, usually on the strong side DT, is where it all starts. The offense is trying to get movement from the DT up to the mike linebacker. It's the key battle in almost every game. If you can't move the DT, the mike scrapes over easily and shuts down the run game. If the double team can get movement on the DT, it makes it easy to chip off the double and latch on to the mike or the mike gets caught in the wash (basically the bodies getting driven backward). If the DT is getting driven with consistency, it'll be a long day for the defense.

The three tech isn't as burdened by the possibility of a double team (though it happens). He's more concerned with controlling his one gap and disturbing the offense quick penetration. Day is perfect for the system for three reasons: 1. He's quick off the snap. If he is shooting a gap, he's almost always a step in front of the offensive lineman. That's rare and anyone that has played on the offensive line knows how difficult it is to stop a three tech that is one step ahead of you into the gap. Leads to a lot of holding calls. 2. He's also ridiculously good at disengaging blockers. In a two gap system, you can't be so quick to disengage b/c you have to protect both gaps. One gap gives you the freedom to shake a blocker as quick as possible to get in the gap. 3. He's short, stocky and powerful. When he crosses the linemen's face as he slants into the gap, there is nothing to grab. It's just demoralizing for an offensive lineman when it happens. The guy literally trucks past you and you can't do shit. Day is just too compact and too powerful to stop at times, even when he has to cross the lineman's face and his body is completely exposed to the blocker. He's going to be disruptive as hell.

1 tech has to be stout and hold the point of attack. 3 tech has to disrupt with penetration.

Excellent post, says I have to spread reps though. In the context you provide, it seems Day is better suited for this roll than a DE position or 3-4 DE, no?

 

[zelezo vlk]

Generally speaking, BVG's system has the 1 tech on the strong side. The most basic plays in every offense is the strong side run game. A double team on the strong side, usually on the strong side DT, is where it all starts. The offense is trying to get movement from the DT up to the mike linebacker. It's the key battle in almost every game. If you can't move the DT, the mike scrapes over easily and shuts down the run game. If the double team can get movement on the DT, it makes it easy to chip off the double and latch on to the mike or the mike gets caught in the wash (basically the bodies getting driven backward). If the DT is getting driven with consistency, it'll be a long day for the defense.

The three tech isn't as burdened by the possibility of a double team (though it happens). He's more concerned with controlling his one gap and disturbing the offense quick penetration. Day is perfect for the system for three reasons: 1. He's quick off the snap. If he is shooting a gap, he's almost always a step in front of the offensive lineman. That's rare and anyone that has played on the offensive line knows how difficult it is to stop a three tech that is one step ahead of you into the gap. Leads to a lot of holding calls. 2. He's also ridiculously good at disengaging blockers. In a two gap system, you can't be so quick to disengage b/c you have to protect both gaps. One gap gives you the freedom to shake a blocker as quick as possible to get in the gap. 3. He's short, stocky and powerful. When he crosses the linemen's face as he slants into the gap, there is nothing to grab. It's just demoralizing for an offensive lineman when it happens. The guy literally trucks past you and you can't do shit. Day is just too compact and too powerful to stop at times, even when he has to cross the lineman's face and his body is completely exposed to the blocker. He's going to be disruptive as hell.

1 tech has to be stout and hold the point of attack. 3 tech has to disrupt with penetration.

Very informative.

Excellent post, says I have to spread reps though. In the context you provide, it seems Day is better suited for this roll than a DE position or 3-4 DE, no?

I got you.

 

[#1rish]

BK already knew a week ago who his captains were going to be:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I figure with the strong running and passing games, I needed to up my selfie game.

Meet Team 127 at Media Day. <a href="http://t.co/31ngKluaqX">pic.twitter.com/31ngKluaqX</a></p>— Brian Kelly (@CoachBrianKelly) <a href="https://twitter.com/CoachBrianKelly/status/633766600114601984">August 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[NDohio]

Question: Why can't Morgan play SAM?

I've got nothing against Onwualu at all (aside from the fact that he should be a safety, but that's not on him), but he was one of those guys whose name you didn't hear hardly at all last year. I understand the defense is almost primarily a base nickle, and so his reps were limited, but even in the time he got, we didn't hear/see much. He had a couple bone-crushing tackles, but that's all I really remember.

Why can't Nyles play SAM in those situations? He's got speed like Onwualu, and he'd be playing alongside Joe/Jaylon, so he wouldn't need to worry about over-thinking things.

Maybe he's still too young and out-of-control when he's flying around? I remember that clip of CJ Sander's amazing run... Morgan came flying through the hole and should have had a huge tackle for loss, but he whiffed big time instead, and that kind of seems like carryover from last year a bit.

As much as I loved the run by CJ, the whiff by Morgan was the most telling part of that play.

 

[Wild Bill]

Excellent post, says I have to spread reps though. In the context you provide, it seems Day is better suited for this roll than a DE position or 3-4 DE, no?

I like Day as a three tech in a one gap 4-3 much more than a two gap DE in a 3-4. It plays more to his strengths. I like the idea of moving him around in passing situations, though. Gives him a little more space to work a pass rush.

As much as I loved the run by CJ, the whiff by Morgan was the most telling part of that play.

If we're thinking about the same play, Morgan picked himself up and hustled down the field to make the play. Most players would have quit on the play after a missed tackle, especially in practice. He played through the whistle and didn't give up. I'm not excited about missed tackles but I like how he hustled and didn't give up. That's a good sign.

 

[IrishLion]

If we're thinking about the same play, Morgan picked himself up and hustled down the field to make the play. Most players would have quit on the play after a missed tackle, especially in practice. He played through the whistle and didn't give up. I'm not excited about missed tackles but I like how he hustled and didn't give up. That's a good sign.

It is a good sign that he hustled down the field rather than giving up, and that he had the athletic ability to even catch the play from behind, but over-running the play in the first place could very well be what's keeping him off of the two-deep currently. Could be indicative of a guy that plays too out-of-control and doesn't "get" the defense yet.

*I'm in the camp that believes Morgan essentially is the no. 2 MLB, and that Grace being slotted there for now is more of a nod to a guy with seniority, and perhaps also a motivational ploy for Morgan.

 

[woolybug25]

You fellas sure take a lot out of one play... lol

 

[IrishLion]

You fellas sure take a lot out of one play... lol

More of the fact that this was also part of his problem at times last season. Flying around and missing on plays that he should make. He took some big-time swings-and-misses last season lol.

And ultimately I think he'll be no.2... this is just a motivational tool for him IMO.

 

[Luckylucci]

It is a good sign that he hustled down the field rather than giving up, and that he had the athletic ability to even catch the play from behind, but over-running the play in the first place could very well be what's keeping him off of the two-deep currently. Could be indicative of a guy that plays too out-of-control and doesn't "get" the defense yet.

*I'm in the camp that believes Morgan essentially is the no. 2 MLB, and that Grace being slotted there for now is more of a nod to a guy with seniority, and perhaps also a motivational ploy for Morgan.

Me too

 

[NDohio]

You fellas sure take a lot out of one play... lol

More of the fact that this was also part of his problem at times last season. Flying around and missing on plays that he should make. He took some big-time swings-and-misses last season lol.

And ultimately I think he'll be no.2... this is just a motivational tool for him IMO.

Pretty much my answer too.

Ultimately, I can't wait to see his athleticism and mental parts of the game come together - he is going to be a stud when that happens.

 

[Wild Bill]

It is a good sign that he hustled down the field rather than giving up, and that he had the athletic ability to even catch the play from behind, but over-running the play in the first place could very well be what's keeping him off of the two-deep currently. Could be indicative of a guy that plays too out-of-control and doesn't "get" the defense yet.

*I'm in the camp that believes Morgan essentially is the no. 2 MLB, and that Grace being slotted there for now is more of a nod to a guy with seniority, and perhaps also a motivational ploy for Morgan.

I think they have Grace there b/c he'd be the go to guy if Schmidt went down during the game. In that situation, you need a guy that can come in, keep everyone calm and keep the defense in check. If Schmidt goes down for an extended period of time (I hope not), I don't see Grace keeping Morgan off of the field. Grace is physically limited and it was obvious before he was injured in 2013.

 

[IrishLion]

I think they have Grace there b/c he'd be the go to guy if Schmidt went down during the game. In that situation, you need a guy that can come in, keep everyone calm and keep the defense in check. If Schmidt goes down for an extended period of time (I hope not), I don't see Grace keeping Morgan off of the field. Grace is physically limited and it was obvious before he was injured in 2013.

I wish they'd do something like this with QB position, too. If something happens and Malik needs to miss extended time, or they need an answer in a game that is still undecided, sen Kizer out there. But if you've got a big lead and the game is NOT in the balance, let Wimbush take some reps.

I think it would be smart to have situations where both backups play, since a more run-oriented offense results in more risk that multiple QB's could conceivable miss time.

 

[RDU Irish]

I would prefer Wimbush redshirts.... but then again if he is as good as we hope he would defer a fifth year anyway after beating out Kizer and starting for a couple years. Playing him this year might be a good recruiting tool, though. Opens a window for the new guy.

 

[#1rish]

http://watchnd.tv/#!/videos/UwMzk5dzpwNOhXjBwUXDEbRa9IJGnby4

Damn Alize.

 

[Te'o4Heisman]

http://watchnd.tv/#!/videos/UwMzk5dzpwNOhXjBwUXDEbRa9IJGnby4

Damn Alize.

No Kidding. Thats his second grab like that this camp. Kids going to be a human highlight reel, but that was also a pretty darn nice throw by Malik. Good touch and over the safety where only his guy could make a play on it.

Also in that video, Coney literally makes Morgan look small as they are both pulling up after the pass deflection. His legs looked a little thin, but he's a monster.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I think they have Grace there b/c he'd be the go to guy if Schmidt went down during the game. In that situation, you need a guy that can come in, keep everyone calm and keep the defense in check. If Schmidt goes down for an extended period of time (I hope not), I don't see Grace keeping Morgan off of the field. Grace is physically limited and it was obvious before he was injured in 2013.

You have been exactly on all day/night. In addition, I expect to see Grace starting against the option teams, and the heavier offensive lines.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

https://youtu.be/lsJFnZosyOc

4:34
Alize
Oh lawwwwd

 

[Luckylucci]

I wish they'd do something like this with QB position, too. If something happens and Malik needs to miss extended time, or they need an answer in a game that is still undecided, sen Kizer out there. But if you've got a big lead and the game is NOT in the balance, let Wimbush take some reps.

I think it would be smart to have situations where both backups play, since a more run-oriented offense results in more risk that multiple QB's could conceivable miss time.

On the last part, I agree with you. Malik just can't handle the rock as much as people expect him too and we'll be fine. College DT QB's carry it roughly 12x per game that's a good number. Which means he's going to have throw it 30ish. Let's hope he does that well. I have confidence, but we need to see it

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

On the last part, I agree with you. Malik just can't handle the rock as much as people expect him too and we'll be fine. College DT QB's carry it roughly 12x per game that's a good number. Which means he's going to have throw it 30ish. Let's hope he does that well. I have confidence, but we need to see it

I don't have confidence he can throw it 30 times, yet. I want him to prove he can do it and I almost guarantee teams will be pressing up near the line of scrimmage to make him prove it. Zaire bails on the pocket much earlier than even Golson did, I want to see him climb in the pocket and deliver strikes when the heat is on. We can't run short dink & dunk plays all game and those intermediate-long throws will determine our season.

Zaire has to prove he can burn the defenses and it'll start with Texas. 3-3-5 stack with likely two safeties playing in or near the box.

 

[IrishLion]

On the last part, I agree with you. Malik just can't handle the rock as much as people expect him too and we'll be fine. College DT QB's carry it roughly 12x per game that's a good number. Which means he's going to have throw it 30ish. Let's hope he does that well. I have confidence, but we need to see it

I don't have confidence he can throw it 30 times, yet. I want him to prove he can do it and I almost guarantee teams will be pressing up near the line of scrimmage to make him prove it. Zaire bails on the pocket much earlier than even Golson did, I want to see him climb in the pocket and deliver strikes when the heat is on. We can't run short dink & dunk plays all game and those intermediate-long throws will determine our season.

Zaire has to prove he can burn the defenses and it'll start with Texas. 3-3-5 stack with likely two safeties playing in or near the box.

The amount he's going to need to throw the ball, just for balance's sake (not even taking into account wear-and-tear), will depend on the tempo. If ND really tries to increase their tempo, they could run 80 plays per game. In this case, unless they want to have an insanely imbalanced run-pass ratio, they're almost going to NEED 30 throws per game, but maybe more.

If the tempo stays the same as last year and they average 75 plays per game, they're still going to need to throw the ball around 30 times, just to keep the defense honest.

So, throwing the ball 30 times per game still leaves 45-50 run plays on the table.

If Folston takes 20 and Zaire takes ~10, that leaves ~20 carries for RB2/RB3/WR. I don't know if it's optimal to ask Folston to take any more than 20 and Zaire any more than 10 consistently, and I don't know that it's realistic to expect 20 carries from RB2/RB3/WR either. So for balance's sake, Malik may very well need to throw the ball more than 30 times each outing.

But, we could see a plodding, clock-eating ball-control offense that only runs 70 plays per game (or less) if we're running well I guess, or we could see a game where RB3/RB4 take a bunch of carries because blowout (we could only hope lol).

 

[Irish YJ]

maybe here is the right place for this

Looking at Rivals updated depth chart (I know, not always the most accurate...)

1. Sanders now listed on both KR and PR
2. Chris Finke (FR, I think PWO or just WO, no profile), now listed in PR as well.
3. ESB now listed as #2 behind Fuller. Holmes #3.
4. Aliz'e now number #2 TE
__________________

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I don't have confidence he can throw it 30 times, yet. I want him to prove he can do it and I almost guarantee teams will be pressing up near the line of scrimmage to make him prove it. Zaire bails on the pocket much earlier than even Golson did, I want to see him climb in the pocket and deliver strikes when the heat is on. We can't run short dink & dunk plays all game and those intermediate-long throws will determine our season.

Zaire has to prove he can burn the defenses and it'll start with Texas. 3-3-5 stack with likely two safeties playing in or near the box.

This may be a series of stupid questions but I never let that stop me before.

Is a 3-3 an odd front defense? Is it like a 3-4, which is really the old 5-2 with another name, (putting more versatile guys on the outside, and calling them linebackers)?

The reason I ask is because I can't see how you can one gap with three linemen, and stop the run. I don't care how many linebackers, Spur, Stud, hybrid-strong safeties, or whatever you have. The only way you can pass rush with a three man line is to two gap to protect for the draw or the delay, correct? Or is the defense always bringing one or more linebackers? If that is the case, and the offensive line can actually work inside - out, I would think quick stuff over the middle would be open all day. What am I missing?

Because if the quick stuff is open over the middle, that would be an invitation for Chris, Torii or Will to have a career day, wouldn't it?

 

[koonja]

maybe here is the right place for this

Looking at Rivals updated depth chart (I know, not always the most accurate...)

1. Sanders now listed on both KR and PR
2. Chris Finke (FR, I think PWO or just WO, no profile), now listed in PR as well.
3. ESB now listed as #2 behind Fuller. Holmes #3.
4. Aliz'e now number #2 TE
__________________

I really hope Sanders is our PR. I want to see him go, but also don't want fuller taking shots if not necessary.

 

[Old Man Mike]

On the issue of whether Malik bails on the pocket earlier than Everett did: I'm not so sure. Malik seems to bail [perhaps] early on the pocket in order to make an executive decision to run, while my vision of Everett was bailing on the pocket WAY too early out of fear it was collapsing inside, but without a firm executive decision as to what he was going to do.

The actual season-long data will tell the truth about that, but if it IS true, then I'll take one sort of bailing out with much greater approval than the other. And of course it would be great if there was no premature bailing out at all, but this is real life, so ...

 

[Fbolt]

I enjoy theverbal/non verbal language BK exhibits in the pressers. Interestingly when announcing Captains, Jaylon seemed to be the oddball when describing why he was chosen. Seems the other selectees were leaders but Jaylon was the best player on the team but possibly not exhibiting the leadership skills the staff was looking for.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

On the issue of whether Malik bails on the pocket earlier than Everett did: I'm not so sure. Malik seems to bail [perhaps] early on the pocket in order to make an executive decision to run, while my vision of Everett was bailing on the pocket WAY too early out of fear it was collapsing inside, but without a firm executive decision as to what he was going to do.

The actual season-long data will tell the truth about that, but if it IS true, then I'll take one sort of bailing out with much greater approval than the other. And of course it would be great if there was no premature bailing out at all, but this is real life, so ...

Mike,

I don't necessarily disagree with you. I think Malik can tuck it and run with the best of em *BUT* how effective will that be when there is a spy attached to Zaire all game and the opposing defense is collapsing the pocket? His mindset will have to change to that of a quick read pass or climb the pocket to get just enough time to continue through his progressions.

If you re-watch the LSU game, he had some successful scrambles in the first half that caught them off guard but if you watch the second half, he was much more limited and often hurt us on bad read-option decisions. One particular 4th and short was blown up in the backfield because he kept it instead of letting Folston pick up the 1st.

I simply want to see Malik prove he can work this offense to the highest degree. The fact that he showed so well in his first career start against the SEC's top defense bodes well for us and I hope it's an indicator of things to come but he definitely finished that game with plenty of areas for improvement.

Let's hope Kelly and co. have given him the proper guidance/direction to make big strides in his game because he can be a very potent weapon in this offense.

 

[Irish2155]

Just saw on Sportscenter...ESPN will be at ND next Saturday for "SportsCenter on the Road".

This is going to be a long week...

 

[Irishcop]

Just saw on Sportscenter...ESPN will be at ND next Saturday for "SportsCenter on the Road".

This is going to be a long week...

Is this a part of Game Day?

 

[IrishLion]

If you re-watch the LSU game, he had some successful scrambles in the first half that caught them off guard but if you watch the second half, he was much more limited and often hurt us on bad read-option decisions. One particular 4th and short was blown up in the backfield because he kept it instead of letting Folston pick up the 1st.

I still think about that play lol. The play-side defenders thought Folston had the ball, and he STILL hopped through the line cleanly. If Zaire hands it off, Folston is probably off to the races.