'19 HI ATH Marist Liufau (Notre Dame Signee)

[PANDFAN]

the staff was upfront with him during the process and didn't wait until a week before signing day to tell him likes some other schools. PERFECTLY fine with this! just weird since i hadn't heard a peep about this during his recruitment

 

[IrishLion]

There is always room.

Bertrand and Liufau will both be on scholarship by the time ND opens at Louisville, and ND will be at 83 scholarship players.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Great, we're a football factory now - NDNation

 

[zelezo vlk]

the staff was upfront with him during the process and didn't wait until a week before signing day to tell him likes some other schools. PERFECTLY fine with this! just weird since i hadn't heard a peep about this during his recruitment

Although it does make a ton of sense because all the news about Liufau came out after we found out Bertrand was a greyshirt. So taking Liufau as a scholarship player when we already knew the deal with Bertrand was puzzling to me.

 

[NDShark]

Has there ever been a 5 star greyshirt?

Jarez Parks was high 4 IIRC

 

[Irish#1]

Has there ever been a 5 star greyshirt?

I'll bet Bama has had some due to grades.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Starting to play the cfb game. When we start processing the likes of Darnell Ewells, ND will be full blown.

I know we don't like to make distinctions , but the reality is that ND offers a Top 20 education (which means something in a country with +300M people), and costs around $60K per year--i.e., aprox. $250,000.00. ND is excellent training and taps you into an outstanding, fairly unique, alumni network.

For the 99.9% of non-football players, getting into Notre Dame without a scholarship is a HUGE deal. It is a real question for most kids whether it is better to pay the money to go to a school like ND then to, say, go to Alabama or USF on a full ride. Many, many, many kids, especially those with means, choose the better school and suck up the debt. Many think that is generally a reasonable, or even smart move.

Long story short. If ND (or Duke, Northwestern, UVA, Stanford, Michigan, USC, or other eleite schools) start saying you can come here, roll the dice that you may have to pay one year, but then be on scholarship if you justify your spot on the practice field--but you will still be enrolled at one of the best schools in the country if you don't. . . . that is not a bad deal! In fact, its what a lot of academic scholarships looks like.

This is not equivalent to saying, you can come here to SEC U, roll the dice that you may have to pay one year, and then you'll be on scholarship if you justify your spot, and BTW as far as we're concerned, your education is going to consistent 100% of checking off minimum requirements. It's like comparing an unpaid internship at Goldman Sachs with a paid intership at a local bank, and only focusing on the "unpaid" aspect.

Even, so. It sounds like ND is really saying, you can come here, roll the dice that you may have to pay one year, but then you'll have 3-4 years of scholarship to earn a degree from of the best schools in the country. That is an excellent deal.

We get so used to treating these football players like they are a special class, that we forget how hard it is to get into an elite university.

 

[SouthSideChiDomer]

I know we don't like to make distinctions , but the reality is that ND offers a Top 20 education (which means something in a country with +300M people), and costs around $60K per year--i.e., aprox. $250,000.00. ND is excellent training and taps you into an outstanding, fairly unique, alumni network.

For the 99.9% of non-football players, getting into Notre Dame without a scholarship is a HUGE deal. It is a real question for most kids whether it is better to pay the money to go to a school like ND then to, say, go to Alabama or USF on a full ride. Many, many, many kids, especially those with means, choose the better school and suck up the debt. Many think that is generally a reasonable, or even smart move.

Long story short. If ND (or Duke, Northwestern, UVA, Stanford, Michigan, USC, or other eleite schools) start saying you can come here, roll the dice that you may have to pay one year, but then be on scholarship if you justify your spot on the practice field--but you will still be enrolled at one of the best schools in the country if you don't. . . . that is not a bad deal! In fact, its what a lot of academic scholarships looks like.

This is not equivalent to saying, you can come here to SEC U, roll the dice that you may have to pay one year, and then you'll be on scholarship if you justify your spot, and BTW as far as we're concerned, your education is going to consistent 100% of checking off minimum requirements. It's like comparing an unpaid internship at Goldman Sachs with a paid intership at a local bank, and only focusing on the "unpaid" aspect.

Even, so. It sounds like ND is really saying, you can come here, roll the dice that you may have to pay one year, but then you'll have 3-4 years of scholarship to earn a degree from of the best schools in the country. That is an excellent deal.

We get so used to treating these football players like they are a special class, that we forget how hard it is to get into an elite university.

I'm pretty sure that because Liufau signed an LOI, he can't enroll unless he is on scholarship, so if he is going to take a gray shirt it will mean he just waits until the spring semester to enroll.

 

[BabyIrish]

It doesn't work like that, he can't take an academic scholarship without it counting as a football scholarship. This has been this way for a good long time now because it would get abused to the enth degree. It goes goes for other sport scholarships as well as because football and basketball programs can't take scholarship players from other sports without it also counting against there scholarship numbers as well. These crooked schools would be giving out table tennis scholarships and other such programs just to allow them to walkon to the football and basketball teams.

It might in the case of Bertrand because he never officially visited the school. They were unofficial s so he might be able to be granted a scholarship or financial aid of some sort. But not entirely sure of the rules here.

 

[RDU Irish]

Using your athletics to get in to a better school than you might have otherwise is the RIGHT way to use athletics.

 

[IrishLax]

The issue with gray shirting was always people being told the night before signing day or after they were ready to enroll that a scholarship was not available. That was the ethical problem, and there are lots of examples of it.

The issue with gray shirting was not the idea that someone could enroll for the spring semester instead of the fall if they really wanted to be at that school.

 

[BobbyMac]

I'm pretty sure that because Liufau signed an LOI, he can't enroll unless he is on scholarship, so if he is going to take a gray shirt it will mean he just waits until the spring semester to enroll.

This.

Wonder if he does a year of prep school or just sits in Gilman Sr.'s incubator on Oahu? I'd enroll at Holy Cross and accidentally bump into Balis every morning in the gym but that's just me.

 

[Ricochet]

It might in the case of Bertrand because he never officially visited the school. They were unofficial s so he might be able to be granted a scholarship or financial aid of some sort. But not entirely sure of the rules here.

The rules are simple, one can't be on a scholarship of any kind and walk-on to the football or basketball program without it counting against there athletic scholarship rules and limitations. Otherwise it would be abused to the extreme. Just think about it, why would ND give out an athletic scholarship to there best student athletes on the football team when they could skirt around the 85 limit by giving them academic scholarship.

 

[BabyIrish]

The rules are simple, one can't be on a scholarship of any kind and walk-on to the football or basketball program without it counting against there athletic scholarship rules and limitations. Otherwise it would be abused to the extreme. Just think about it, why would ND give out an athletic scholarship to there best student athletes on the football team when they could skirt around the 85 limit by giving them academic scholarship.

I just reread the Pete Sampson article about Bertrand. Because he never officially visited, and because Brian Kelly never went in-home, he can be classified as a regular student rather than a recruited prospect, opening the door for an academic scholarship, according to the article.

 

[ab2cmiller]

I just reread the Pete Sampson article about Bertrand. Because he never officially visited, and because Brian Kelly never went in-home, he can be classified as a regular student rather than a recruited prospect, opening the door for an academic scholarship, according to the article.

I'm assuming you meant normal "need based" financial aid. An academic scholarship would result in him being a counter as soon as he steps on the playing field.

I would also be very surprised that he would get one of the very very limited academic scholarships that ND hands out. Almost all financial aid at Notre Dame is need based.

 

[SouthSideChiDomer]

I'm assuming you meant normal "need based" financial aid. An academic scholarship would result in him being a counter as soon as he steps on the playing field.

I would also be very surprised that he would get one of the very very limited academic scholarships that ND hands out. Almost all financial aid at Notre Dame is need based.

I don't think it would. We went over it in the Kiser thread. If the academic scholarship is an established academic scholarship that does not restrict the school a player can choose and is not based on athletics then the player can be counted as a walk on.

 

[ab2cmiller]

I don't think it would. We went over it in the Kiser thread. If the academic scholarship is an established academic scholarship that does not restrict the school a player can choose and is not based on athletics then the player can be counted as a walk on.

NO. If the academic scholarship is from the school itself, that is a non-starter. Kiser's situation fits into a very narrow exception where it's an outside academic scholarship that fits into very specific terms. Again, if the academic scholarship comes from the school itself, he is a counter as soon as he hits the playing field. If Bertrand has access to some outside scholarship that fits into the narrow exception, then he would be fine.

 

[ResLife Hero]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">No, he isn't. Don't believe everything you read. It's being discussed on the board at BGI. Check it out. <a href="https://t.co/KOySl6HL2W">https://t.co/KOySl6HL2W</a></p>— Bryan Driskell (@BGI_CoachD) <a href="https://twitter.com/BGI_CoachD/status/1086283368151638016?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 18, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Anyone with BGI know what Driskell means?

 

[SouthSideChiDomer]

NO. If the academic scholarship is from the school itself, that is a non-starter. Kiser's situation fits into a very narrow exception where it's an outside academic scholarship that fits into very specific terms. Again, if the academic scholarship comes from the school itself, he is a counter as soon as he hits the playing field. If Bertrand has access to some outside scholarship that fits into the narrow exception, then he would be fine.

15.5 Maximum Institutional Grant-in-Aid Limitations by Sport.
15.5.1 Counters. A student-athlete shall be a counter and included in the maximum awards limitations set
forth in this bylaw under the following conditions: (Revised: 6/10/04, 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)
(a) Athletics Aid. A student-athlete who receives financial aid based in any degree on athletics ability shall become a counter for the year during which the student-athlete receives the financial aid;

15.5.1.1 Football or Basketball, Varsity Competition. In football or basketball, a student-athlete who
was recruited (see Bylaw 15.02.9) by the awarding institution and who receives institutional financial aid (as set
forth in Bylaw 15.02.5.2) granted without regard in any degree to athletics ability does not have to be counted
until the student-athlete engages in varsity intercollegiate competition (as opposed to freshman, B-team, subvarsity, intramural or club competition) in those sports. (Revised: 1/16/93 effective 8/1/93, 1/11/94, 6/20/04, 1/15/11
effective 8/1/11, 1/18/14 effective 8/1/14)​

15.5.1.1.1 Exception—Receipt of Institutional Academic Aid Only. In football or basketball, a
student-athlete who was recruited (see Bylaw 15.02.9) by the awarding institution and whose only source
of institutional financial aid is academic aid based solely on the recipient’s academic record at the certifying
institution, awarded independently of athletics interests and in amounts consistent with the pattern of all
such awards made by the institution, may compete without counting in the institution’s financial aid team
limits, provided he or she has completed at least one academic year of full-time enrollment at the certifying institution and has achieved a cumulative grade-point average of at least 3.000 (on a 4.000 scale) at the
certifying institution. (Adopted: 10/27/05 effective 8/1/06, Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)​

So I guess it matters what "compete" means. If it just means playing in games, then if he takes a true redshirt and is able to maintain a 3.0 GPA then he isn't a counter. But that doesn't even matter because Bertrant doesn't count as a recruited student athlete which these above rules govern because he wouldn't satisfy 15.5.1 (a). You might be thinking he falls more into this category as a non-recruited student athlete:

15.5.6.3.3 Nonrecruited Student-Athlete Receiving Institutional Financial Aid During First
Year. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete not recruited (per Bylaw 15.02.9) by the institution who receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) after beginning football practice during
the first year of enrollment becomes a counter but need not be counted as an initial counter until the next
academic year if the institution has reached its initial limit for the year in question. However, the student athlete shall be considered in the total counter limit for the academic year in which the aid was first received.
(Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11, 4/25/18 effective 8/1/18)

...but if he is receiving an academic scholarship with no basis on athletic ability, then he doesn't satisfy the bolded portion. In that case, it would be more appropriate to reference this portion:

15.02.5 Financial Aid. “Financial aid” is funds provided to student-athletes from various sources to pay or
assist in paying their cost of education at the institution. As used in NCAA legislation, “financial aid” includes all
institutional financial aid and other permissible financial aid as set forth below. (See Bylaws 15.01.6.1, 16.2, 16.3
and 16.4.) (Revised: 5/26/09)

15.02.5.1 Athletically Related Financial Aid. Athletically related financial aid is financial aid that is
awarded on any basis that is related to athletics ability, participation or achievement. If an application process
specifically requests athletics participation or achievements as criteria for consideration in determining whether
an applicant receives financial aid, aid received pursuant to such a process is athletically related financial aid.
(Adopted: 1/18/14 effective 8/1/14)

15.02.5.2 Institutional Financial Aid. The following sources of financial aid are considered to be institutional financial aid: (Revised: 1/11/94 effective 8/1/94, 1/14/97 effective 8/1/97, 4/26/01 effective 8/1/01, 10/31/02
effective 8/1/03, 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

(a) All funds administered by the institution, which include but are not limited to the following:

(1) Scholarships;
(2) Grants;
(3) Tuition waivers;
(4) Employee dependent tuition benefits, unless the employee has been employed as a full-time faculty/
staff member for a minimum of five years; and
(5) Loans.​

(b) Aid from government or private sources for which the institution is responsible for selecting the recipient or determining the amount of aid, or providing matching or supplementary funds for a previously
determined recipient.​

15.02.5.3 Other Permissible Financial Aid. The following sources of financial aid are also permitted: (Adopted: 1/10/95 effective 8/1/95, Revised: 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04, 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

(a) Financial aid received from anyone upon whom the student-athlete is naturally or legally dependent;
(b) Financial aid awarded solely on bases having no relationship to athletics ability;
(c) Financial aid awarded through an established and continuing outside program as outlined in Bylaw
15.2.6.3; and
(d) Educational expenses awarded by the U.S. Olympic Committee, which count against an institution’s
sport-by-sport financial aid limitations and against the individual’s maximum limit on financial aid.​

15.02.5.4 Exempted Institutional Financial Aid. The following institutional financial aid is exempt and
is not counted in determining the institution’s financial aid limitations: (Revised: 1/10/91, 1/10/92, 4/25/02,
10/31/02 effective 8/1/03, 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04, 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11, 4/26/17 effective 8/1/17)

(a) An honorary award for outstanding academic achievement or an established institutional research grant
that meets the criteria set forth in Bylaw 15.02.7 (and must be included in determining if the student athlete’s cost of attendance has been met);​

 

[Rack Em]

This.

Wonder if he does a year of prep school or just sits in Gilman Sr.'s incubator on Oahu? I'd enroll at Holy Cross and accidentally bump into Balis every morning in the gym but that's just me.

You have to be in college for a year before ND would let you transfer. It's a good idea but it wouldn't get past admissions.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Thank you SouthSide for the info. I can see now as a non-recruited athlete, he has some additional flexibility.

Discussion about an Academic Scholarship coming from ND is still highly improbable. They hand out very few academic scholarships and it's highly unlikely that Bertrand would be selected for one of those.

 

[Luckylucci]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">No, he isn't. Don't believe everything you read. It's being discussed on the board at BGI. Check it out. <a href="https://t.co/KOySl6HL2W">https://t.co/KOySl6HL2W</a></p>— Bryan Driskell (@BGI_CoachD) <a href="https://twitter.com/BGI_CoachD/status/1086283368151638016?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 18, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Anyone with BGI know what Driskell means?

Essentially he's saying that the plan is for ND to have scholarships available for Bertrand and Liufau with the 19' class. However, the staff was obviously proactive in it's approach to talking about this with the two kids, in case those scholarships weren't available.

 

[ndbroski]

Great, we're a football factory now - NDNation

I'm just happy there are kids out there willing to settle or make sacrifices just to play for ND.

 

[KizerWilhelm]

Per Loy, the plan is prep school and staying in football shape, so I'm not sure how that all works.

 

[Luckylucci]

Per Loy, the plan is prep school and staying in football shape, so I'm not sure how that all works.

Not really. The plan is to try and get him on campus with the 19' class. If that doesn't occur, then it's the Prep School route.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Whatever we do, let's just do it right.

God knows the NCAA would love to come in and f us in the a, given any window for "error".

 

[IrishFanJMercy]

I think I'd rather have Marist than the kid from Georgia if it means one or the other comes next year I also like Marist better than Kiser

 

[Luckylucci]

I think I'd rather have Marist than the kid from Georgia if it means one or the other comes next year I also like Marist better than Kiser

Not sure this really is a discussion at this point. JD Bertrand "the kid from Georgia", would be paying his own way as a PWO, if no scholarships are made available. Marist's family doesn't have that option. So he'd have to go the prep school route and wait for the space to open. Bertrand will be on campus no matter what. Marist has to wait and see about space. Now if only one scholarship is available, I would hope they give it to Marist, as he committed first and doesn't have another option.

 

[NDdomer2]

I know we don't like to make distinctions , but the reality is that ND offers a Top 20 education (which means something in a country with +300M people), and costs around $60K per year--i.e., aprox. $250,000.00. ND is excellent training and taps you into an outstanding, fairly unique, alumni network.

For the 99.9% of non-football players, getting into Notre Dame without a scholarship is a HUGE deal. It is a real question for most kids whether it is better to pay the money to go to a school like ND then to, say, go to Alabama or USF on a full ride. Many, many, many kids, especially those with means, choose the better school and suck up the debt. Many think that is generally a reasonable, or even smart move.

Long story short. If ND (or Duke, Northwestern, UVA, Stanford, Michigan, USC, or other eleite schools) start saying you can come here, roll the dice that you may have to pay one year, but then be on scholarship if you justify your spot on the practice field--but you will still be enrolled at one of the best schools in the country if you don't. . . . that is not a bad deal! In fact, its what a lot of academic scholarships looks like.

This is not equivalent to saying, you can come here to SEC U, roll the dice that you may have to pay one year, and then you'll be on scholarship if you justify your spot, and BTW as far as we're concerned, your education is going to consistent 100% of checking off minimum requirements. It's like comparing an unpaid internship at Goldman Sachs with a paid intership at a local bank, and only focusing on the "unpaid" aspect.

Even, so. It sounds like ND is really saying, you can come here, roll the dice that you may have to pay one year, but then you'll have 3-4 years of scholarship to earn a degree from of the best schools in the country. That is an excellent deal.

We get so used to treating these football players like they are a special class, that we forget how hard it is to get into an elite university.

So ur point is if we start grey shirting it's acceptable because the ND degree is of high quality but for other schools it's not because their degree is inferior?

And people wonder why other fanbases hate ND...

 

[BobbyMac]

You have to be in college for a year before ND would let you transfer. It's a good idea but it wouldn't get past admissions.

OK, then don't transfer the classes in. Audit a few prerequisites like PSY101, & ECON101 and then accidently bump into the S&C staff every day.

Any Poke Bars in South Bend yet?