'16 CA QB Ian Book (Notre Dame Signed NLI)

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

In 2016 Kizer completed 58.7% of his passes for 2,925 yards, 26 TDs, 9 Int., 8.1 yards per attempt.

In 2019 Book completed 60.2% of his passes for 3,034 yards, 34 TDs, 6 Int., 7.6 yards per attempt.

 

[ulukinatme]

In 2016 Kizer completed 58.7% of his passes for 2,925 yards, 26 TDs, 9 Int., 8.1 yards per attempt.

In 2019 Book completed 60.2% of his passes for 3,034 yards, 34 TDs, 6 Int., 7.6 yards per attempt.

Book is certainly on pace to have lower numbers than last year at the current rate (Even if we were playing 12 games). Is it more likely that Book has severely regressed, or is it a loss of Book's three biggest targets: Claypool, Finke, and Kmet that is affecting the passing game? That's just the point I'm trying to make, our current leading receivers are our RB and 2 TEs, not a WR.

 

[NDRock]

We also opened the season with a weak Texas squad, Syracuse, Nevada, and Duke. Yeah, the defense was atrocious, but Kizer also had 5% lower completion percentage in 2016 despite having basically a full season of experience under his belt. We also didn't have a receiver hit 1000 yards in 2016, and only three times did a receiver hit 100 yards. St. Brown eventually grew into a good receiver, but Hunter, Stepherson, and Sanders certainly weren't a group of world beaters and I'd hardly put that group among our best pass catchers if we're stacking up BK's seasons in South Bend. It was a far cry from the previous season when Kizer was throwing to Fuller, a steady Chris Brown, Amir Carlisle, and Corey Robinson.

The only one that matters in that group is Fuller. Other than him the rest of the 2016 group was just as good if not better than their 2015 counter parts.

I'm not one to take out bad games but if you removed the 2016 NC State game from Kizer's stat line (9/26 54 yards 1 INT) then his stats are about the same as 2015. I've never seen a football game played in worse conditions and the fact that ND called over 30 passes was enough to get someone fired. It was horrific.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Book is certainly on pace to have lower numbers than last year at the current rate (Even if we were playing 12 games). Is it more likely that Book has severely regressed, or is it a loss of Book's three biggest targets: Claypool, Finke, and Kmet that is affecting the passing game? That's just the point I'm trying to make, our current leading receivers are our RB and 2 TEs, not a WR.

I was ready to blame a majority of the passing game’s issues getting vertical on the RPO offense, Chip Long, and the makeup of the WRs. In retrospect Claypool was not just a big body target and Ian is showing some of the same negatives as before. I was ready to believe in ND’s offense taking a step forward.

The WR group is not great. McKinley doesn’t seem to move that well and ND has kept TEs out on the field which has benefits but does reduce downfield opportunities a bit. But Lenzy returned against a weak opponent and ND still didn’t do much in the downfield passing game. Lawrence Keys is not a big target but he has speed and has basically been nonexistent.

Also, the Kizer comparison was just interesting with the differences in perception. I thought he was a really good player who doesn’t get properly appreciated because BVG was an incompetent boob.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Book is certainly on pace to have lower numbers than last year at the current rate (Even if we were playing 12 games). Is it more likely that Book has severely regressed, or is it a loss of Book's three biggest targets: Claypool, Finke, and Kmet that is affecting the passing game? That's just the point I'm trying to make, our current leading receivers are our RB and 2 TEs, not a WR.

Book is getting so much aggro here because this is arguably the most complete team we've fielded since the Holtz era, and our QB, despite being a 5Y Senior and a 3Y starter, is clearly the weak link which is likely to hold us back from being competitive with a team like Clemson.

I'm thrilled that we're finally in a position where we're only one piece away from competing at the highest level. And I'm grateful for the high floor that Book has given us, much as Rees did when he was playing. But it's still frustrating that Kelly hasn't been able to recruit the position better.

 

[ThePiombino]

Book is getting so much aggro here because this is arguably the most complete team we've fielded since the Holtz era, and our QB, despite being a 5Y Senior and a 3Y starter, is clearly the weak link which is likely to hold us back from being competitive with a team like Clemson.

I'm thrilled that we're finally in a position where we're only one piece away from competing at the highest level. And I'm grateful for the high floor that Book has given us, much as Rees did when he was playing. But it's still frustrating that Kelly hasn't been able to recruit the position better.

This. THIS!

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

 

[T-Boone]

Maybe that Hilinski kid from South Carolina could come in as a transfer. I think it would help to have competition in the QB room.

 

[FWIrish4]

There is plenty of offense being schemed/called right now. Plenty. Would it be easier if we had a Chase Claypool on the outside for him to throw too. Of course. But even when we did (beginning of last year) we still had these problems. There is a constant here. This isn't new. This has been going on for 3 seasons now. Back in 18' when Pitt was running CB blitzes and Book had no idea what to do. So what did they do, finally in the 4th, they got him into play action. A smart OC would have done this sooner. And a better Qb wouldn't have had too.

https://www.nbcsports.com/video/mil...own-gives-notre-dame-first-lead-vs-pittsburgh

How much separation is there, 1-2 steps? Wow, look at how that works. So, the WR's don't need to be WIDE open to complete passes. Crazy concept.

This notion it's the WR fault or they need more separation is just a bad excuse for Ian's same problems he's always had. If it wasn't an issue, you wouldn't see the plays being called different. He cannot function in a (what most would consider) traditional spread offense, right now. At least not consistently. For whatever reason, he's buckling under the pressure of maintaining composure in the pocket while going through is progressions.

To start 2016, they scored 47 points against Texas in the opener. Kizer in that game was 15-24, 215 yds, 5 TD's. With 77 yards rushing and another TD. We didn't lose because our offense struggled with new WR's.

2016 was a disaster because the defense was. Kizer was forced to do too much. Or at least, he felt that way and then played that way. If Book was the QB with a defense that bad, his record would not be good either. You realize that we lost games that year scoring 47, 28, 35, 27, 31, and 27. Considering that Lea had an unprecedented number of games not giving up 30 or more, you can see why that's important.

So this was hit on someone else on the thread but I can’t find it. Lucky is spot on here. This is one of the most basic concepts of playing quarterback and basically taught to every high school let alone one being recruited to ND.

Route combinations are meant to have a read on a specific defender, have a progression of reads or are designed to get a specific player open. Most route combinations have the “clear” route which opens up the area for the read for the QB or the specific player to get the ball. Think of a tight end running a seam route to clear the field for the outside WR running a dig and the RB swinging to the same flat. Obviously the read is the flat defender - outside linebacker or the corner depending on the coverage.

The seam route by the tight end isn’t the designated target BUT QB’s are taught to “peak” initially at this route. If your TE has a step on the safety who may have cheated, the safety had a late turn or has inside leverage without great coverage and head not turned, you can throw this ball. You aren’t throwing it because there was blown coverage and the TE is wide open - because how often does that happen? You throw the TE open because there is a small advantage that you can exploit - a step on the defender so dropping it in the bucket or the defender with inside leverage would create a back shoulder situation.

Deep balls are more about anticipation and throwing your man open than they are about “separation” that gets your guy 5 yards ahead of a defender. Yeah having Will Fuller’s speed is ideal, but that’s rare. Deep plays are a combination of the receiver and the QB, but more so on the QB’s willingness to throw them open with anticipation and in the area where only your guy can win the ball. I think that is the source of all of our frustration that the willingness to actually make this throw is not occurring whatsoever. He can do it because he has above average accuracy, but he just doesn’t.

 

[ThePiombino]

So this was hit on someone else on the thread but I can’t find it. Lucky is spot on here. This is one of the most basic concepts of playing quarterback and basically taught to every high school let alone one being recruited to ND.

Route combinations are meant to have a read on a specific defender, have a progression of reads or are designed to get a specific player open. Most route combinations have the “clear” route which opens up the area for the read for the QB or the specific player to get the ball. Think of a tight end running a seam route to clear the field for the outside WR running a dig and the RB swinging to the same flat. Obviously the read is the flat defender - outside linebacker or the corner depending on the coverage.

The seam route by the tight end isn’t the designated target BUT QB’s are taught to “peak” initially at this route. If your TE has a step on the safety who may have cheated, the safety had a late turn or has inside leverage without great coverage and head not turned, you can throw this ball. You aren’t throwing it because there was blown coverage and the TE is wide open - because how often does that happen? You throw the TE open because there is a small advantage that you can exploit - a step on the defender so dropping it in the bucket or the defender with inside leverage would create a back shoulder situation.

Deep balls are more about anticipation and throwing your man open than they are about “separation” that gets your guy 5 yards ahead of a defender. Yeah having Will Fuller’s speed is ideal, but that’s rare. Deep plays are a combination of the receiver and the QB, but more so on the QB’s willingness to throw them open with anticipation and in the area where only your guy can win the ball. I think that is the source of all of our frustration that the willingness to actually make this throw is not occurring whatsoever. He can do it because he has above average accuracy, but he just doesn’t.

One of the post-USF ND podcasts were talking about Book's unwillingness (or possibly inability) to anticipate a WR being open, or throwing them open for that matter. It's a legit handicap for this offense. I know JM isn't the most athletic receiver in the world, but there is PLENTY of talent on this roster. This is 95% on Book.

 

[Irish#1]

I think he is a solid QB and the best we have right now so we better be grateful for him

completely agree, he may not have the highest ceiling but he's won a lot of games for ND and I for one am grateful to have him on the team.

He grew some last year starting with the VT game winning drive, but in the end, he was rated 3 stars for a reason (he's never had the strength to throw deep with heat on the ball). To expect him to walk on water this year is unreasonable. What we should expect is for him to recognize the D and check to a more favorable play when required, have a completion percentage around 65% and not throw a lot of INT's. I suspect once Austin is back, we'll see some shots down field.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

<a href="https://ibb.co/k07nkPH"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/QngBzxb/Capture.jpg" alt="Capture" border="0"></a><br /><a target='_blank' href='https://imgbb.com/'>free image hosting sites</a><br />
All said and done Book will be one of the most prolific passers in ND history.

 

[CHIDomer9]

<a href="https://ibb.co/k07nkPH"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/QngBzxb/Capture.jpg" alt="Capture" border="0"></a><br /><a target='_blank' href='https://imgbb.com/'>free image hosting sites</a><br />
All said and done Book will be one of the most prolific passers in ND history.

There's also lots of game film of Notre Dame lined up in the T formation. And the film is in color.

 

[tussin]

Book is certainly on pace to have lower numbers than last year at the current rate (Even if we were playing 12 games). Is it more likely that Book has severely regressed, or is it a loss of Book's three biggest targets: Claypool, Finke, and Kmet that is affecting the passing game? That's just the point I'm trying to make, our current leading receivers are our RB and 2 TEs, not a WR.

Just casually watching you can see that the issues with the passing game are not because of the receivers. There are many plays every game with receivers streaking open or at the very least running routes with 1-2 steps on their defender.

Ian just misses them because he can't hold in the pocket and read through progressions. It's almost as if he gets the play and determines pre-snap who he's throwing it to. I don't want to rip on him but it is what it is. He's like the guy in NCAA 13 who mashes the square button every play.

 

[fightingirish26]

<a href="https://ibb.co/k07nkPH"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/QngBzxb/Capture.jpg" alt="Capture" border="0"></a><br /><a target='_blank' href='https://imgbb.com/'>free image hosting sites</a><br />
All said and done Book will be one of the most prolific passers in ND history.

tends to happen when you start for 3 years in the 21st century.

 

[fightingirish26]

Just casually watching you can see that the issues with the passing game are not because of the receivers. There are many plays every game with receivers streaking open or at the very least running routes with 1-2 steps on their defender.

Ian just misses them because he can't hold in the pocket and read through progressions. It's almost as if he gets the play and determines pre-snap who he's throwing it to. I don't want to rip on him but it is what it is. He's like the guy in NCAA 13 who mashes the square button every play.

I get that same impression on so many plays. I'm sure most QBs have a player/route they feel most comfortable targeting before the ball is snapped, but he just seems to straight up panic when it's not there.

Also, the posts throughout this thread about throwing receivers open downfield are valid. It's true that McKinley can't get separation, and I honestly don't think his run blocking ability makes up for his other shortcomings. The other WRs are athletic enough to throw open. And you just have to go back to the Duke game where Book refused to throw to a wide open Keys down the field that would have been a sure touchdown. Was he scared to throw it or did he just not see it? Neither are really acceptable, being that this was a problem over and over again last year, showing that it wasn't just a simple missed opportunity. It is a feature (defect) of his game.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

There's also lots of game film of Notre Dame lined up in the T formation. And the film is in color.

tends to happen when you start for 3 years in the 21st century.

I realize it is a MODERN thing lol. But he is up there with all the qbs in the last 40- 50 years. Yes its scheme. Yes its modern football. Sooooo what. ND has never been an offense like Hawaii or Boise. If you follow ND football, Book has had very good passing stats.

I mean I know we all suffer from Post Tommy Rees Stress Disorder but Book has done well. He is 20-3 as a starter and should easily catch Claussen for passing yards this year.

 

[NorthDakota]

I realize it is a MODERN thing lol. But he is up there with all the qbs in the last 40- 50 years. Yes its scheme. Yes its modern football. Sooooo what. ND has never been an offense like Hawaii or Boise. If you follow ND football, Book has had very good passing stats.

I mean I know we all suffer from Post Tommy Rees Stress Disorder but Book has done well. He is 20-3 as a starter and should easily catch Claussen for passing yards this year.

I'm mildly surprised he isn't past Jimmy already lol. Jimmy's freshman year....what a godawful team. I'm still baffled on how a blueblood with national recruiting capability could be so bad.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

I realize it is a MODERN thing lol. But he is up there with all the qbs in the last 40- 50 years. Yes its scheme. Yes its modern football. Sooooo what. ND has never been an offense like Hawaii or Boise. If you follow ND football, Book has had very good passing stats.

I mean I know we all suffer from Post Tommy Rees Stress Disorder but Book has done well. He is 20-3 as a starter and should easily catch Claussen for passing yards this year.

Hey now, you're talking about Notre Dame's #3 all time passer.

 

[Rack Em]

Deep balls are more about anticipation

If I had a dime for every time a lady said that about me, I would have retired a long time ago.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Hey now, you're talking about Notre Dame's #3 all time passer.

Oh I know and I'm a Tommy supporter but many on this board were not and they said so for his entire time as a starter. Still do.

 

[ACamp1900]

If I had a dime for every time a lady said that about me, I would have retired a long time ago.

I know you’re often drunk but,... those weren’t ladies.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

I'm mildly surprised he isn't past Jimmy already lol. Jimmy's freshman year....what a godawful team. I'm still baffled on how a blueblood with national recruiting capability could be so bad.

Decided Schematic Advantage

 

[mgriff]

Ah, I see it's the season where a young QB gets put in due to an under-performing veteran QB, exceeds expectations, only to revert the following season. I was wondering when we'd hit this point in the QB cycle again under BK. The grass is not greener, we shouldn't get rid of BK or anything wild, but our QB issues seem to be consistent.

 

[NDRock]

Decided Schematic Advantage

Coupled with Ty's lack of recruiting

 

[NDRock]

Ah, I see it's the season where a young QB gets put in due to an under-performing veteran QB, exceeds expectations, only to revert the following season. I was wondering when we'd hit this point in the QB cycle again under BK. The grass is not greener, we shouldn't get rid of BK or anything wild, but our QB issues seem to be consistent.

As much as I've been critical of BK's QB struggles, it's actually a pretty common problem. Look at some of the bigger programs and they've all had issues. Florida post Tebow, Tennessee post Manning, Texas post VY/Colt, USC post Leinert/Sanchez, Auburn post Cam, etc... Georgia had a ton of talent at the position and the best they did was Jake Froome (good, not great). Michigan hasn't been good.

Really, besides Clemson, Bama, Ohio State and Oklahoma nobody has really had multiple great quarterbacks in the BK era. Guess that's why they're always in the playoffs.

It's really hard to find those generational talents at the position. We've won a bunch of games with good to average QBs. Just need to hit the jackpot once. Tyler?

 

[ThePiombino]

<a href="https://ibb.co/k07nkPH"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/QngBzxb/Capture.jpg" alt="Capture" border="0"></a><br /><a target='_blank' href='https://imgbb.com/'>free image hosting sites</a><br />
All said and done Book will be one of the most prolific passers in ND history.

#compiler

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Irish du Nord]

As much as I've been critical of BK's QB struggles, it's actually a pretty common problem. Look at some of the bigger programs and they've all had issues. Florida post Tebow, Tennessee post Manning, Texas post VY/Colt, USC post Leinert/Sanchez, Auburn post Cam, etc... Georgia had a ton of talent at the position and the best they did was Jake Froome (good, not great). Michigan hasn't been good.

Really, besides Clemson, Bama, Ohio State and Oklahoma nobody has really had multiple great quarterbacks in the BK era. Guess that's why they're always in the playoffs.

It's really hard to find those generational talents at the position. We've won a bunch of games with good to average QBs. Just need to hit the jackpot once. Tyler?

I agree with you except USC has had more success at QB than you're giving them credit for. Barkley, Kessler, and Darnold were all very good QBs, and Slovis seems like he'll be up there too.

If we're saying Bama has had multiple great QBs in the BK era, then so has USC.

 

[ulukinatme]

Just casually watching you can see that the issues with the passing game are not because of the receivers. There are many plays every game with receivers streaking open or at the very least running routes with 1-2 steps on their defender.

Ian just misses them because he can't hold in the pocket and read through progressions. It's almost as if he gets the play and determines pre-snap who he's throwing it to. I don't want to rip on him but it is what it is. He's like the guy in NCAA 13 who mashes the square button every play.

Book hit Claypool for over 1000 yards last season and 500 to Finke, and again the year before that Boykin and Claypool combined for about 1500 yards (A small chunk of the later also came from Wimbush). It's silly to claim Book can't hit his WRs when he's proved over two seasons that he can. All of a sudden he can't find them, despite the fact his OL is essentially intact from last season? Seems far more likely that these WRs are inexperienced and need to step up.

 

[ThePiombino]

Book hit Claypool for over 1000 yards last season and 500 to Finke, and again the year before that Boykin and Claypool combined for about 1500 yards (A small chunk of the later also came from Wimbush). It's silly to claim Book can't hit his WRs when he's proved over two seasons that he can. All of a sudden he can't find them, despite the fact his OL is essentially intact from last season? Seems far more likely that these WRs are inexperienced and need to step up.

I mean the majority of analysts disagree with you, but by all means -- dig those heels in.

 

[Free Manera]

This isn't something you can use stats to support or refute. It's a matter of watching games (and listening to analysts that watch the games) and seeing that good teams don't respect him throwing deep. They go man and put 8 guys in the short and intermediate area because they aren't afraid of giving up a big play.

It's not rocket surgery. Even Pitt was able to totally neuter him with this approach. It only takes beating teams deep once or twice a game to discourage stacking the box. But Book doesn't do that.