'16 CA QB Ian Book (Notre Dame Signed NLI)

[BilboBaggins]

Kizer was better than Book. Is this even debated?

 

[Irish du Nord]

Kizer was better than Book. Is this even debated?

Statistically he was pretty similar and Book was way better in clutch situations. We give Kiser too much benefit of the doubt for 2016 imo, he looked really bad in some games that year (MSU, Stanford, VT, and Duke stand out) and his season stats were padded in others (Cuse, UT)

 

[Irish4life]

Kizer was better than Book. Is this even debated?

Not if you look at QB stats or record lol

 

[benneboy]

Kizer was better than Book. Is this even debated?

Book went down as a better player at ND. That's not all that close. The only area they are even comparable is throwing statistics. Book was a better runner, won substantially more games, and took us to 2 playoffs. Mind you ND's only playoff appearances

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Stats alone Book was by far the best qb we’ve had in a long time. People just don’t want to accept it. Three years of hating on the kid will do that.
2019 was a ridiculous year for him.

 

[Irish2155]

Kizer was better than Book. Is this even debated?

This is the stupidest post I’ve seen on this board. I know I have some drunken rants, but this is literally new world stupid.

 

[Old Man Mike]

I believe that Kizer had a higher upside as a college QB, but Book was obviously, in any metric, the better college achiever.
Kizer took his higher upside into the pros and blew it. Ian will, in my opinion, continue to get more and more integrated to
league play, and will have a far better NFL career --- though that will be for the future to demonstrate. I also think that Ian might just stick around in the league long enough to be considered to have had a better career than Clausen or even Quinn. (though both those guys were more dangerous college quarterbacks.) We all need to give Ian a standing ovation for his accomplishment.

 

[BilboBaggins]

Funny how the narratives fluctuate. This time last year IE was predicting an improvement in the passing game because Coan could consistently see over the OL, a trait Book lacked.

DeShone Kizer stunted his own career by leaving two college years on the table and then getting Browns'd, but the guy had a getter QB rating than Book, despite 2016, and played well enough to be drafted in the second round. Not too shabby. Book made the most of his physical potential but DeShone Kizer was obviously the more talented QB.

 

[stlnd01]

Funny how the narratives fluctuate. This time last year IE was predicting an improvement in the passing game because Coan could consistently see over the OL, a trait Book lacked.

DeShone Kizer stunted his own career by leaving two college years on the table and then getting Browns'd, but the guy had a getter QB rating than Book, despite 2016, and played well enough to be drafted in the second round. Not too shabby. Book made the most of his physical potential but DeShone Kizer was obviously the more talented QB.

Yes Kizer had superior physical tools, which is largely why he was drafted higher. But who was the better quarterback for Notre Dame? Book, no doubt.

 

[BilboBaggins]

Yes Kizer had superior physical tools, which is largely why he was drafted higher. But who was the better quarterback for Notre Dame? Book, no doubt.

If you're judging a quarterback by how many games the team won when they played, well the answer doesn't require much thought. Book has more wins than any ND quarterback. But who seriously thinks he is the best ND quarterback ever?

Book wasn't even statistically better, or run a better offense than 2015. Book was known as a QB with obvious limitations and maximized his potential regardless. No shame in that.

Put 100 coaches in a room and ask them to draft a QB to play a college season with, Kizer or Book. Who gets picked more? Do you really think it's Book? Come on now...

 

[stlnd01]

If you're judging a quarterback by how many games the team won when they played, well the answer doesn't require much thought. Book has more wins than any ND quarterback. But who seriously thinks he is the best ND quarterback ever?

Book wasn't even statistically better, or run a better offense than 2015. Book was known as a QB with obvious limitations and maximized his potential regardless. No shame in that.

Put 100 coaches in a room and ask them to draft a QB to play a college season with, Kizer or Book. Who gets picked more? Do you really think it's Book? Come on now...

If you're judging a quarterback by how many games the team won when they played, well the answer doesn't require much thought. Book has more wins than any ND quarterback. But who seriously thinks he is the best ND quarterback ever?

Book wasn't even statistically better, or run a better offense than 2015. Book was known as a QB with obvious limitations and maximized his potential regardless. No shame in that.

Put 100 coaches in a room and ask them to draft a QB to play a college season with, Kizer or Book. Who gets picked more? Do you really think it's Book? Come on now...

I dunno. I think Book was a smarter player, he made fewer mistakes, and that, despite his limitations, made him a superior quarterback at Notre Dame. He also played three seasons to Kizer’s two. Maybe if Kizer had stuck around for 2017 and we could have seen him reach his potential in college I’d feel differently. But what I remember from 2016 in particular was a talented QB who tried to do too much.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

If you're judging a quarterback by how many games the team won when they played, well the answer doesn't require much thought. Book has more wins than any ND quarterback. But who seriously thinks he is the best ND quarterback ever?

Book wasn't even statistically better, or run a better offense than 2015. Book was known as a QB with obvious limitations and maximized his potential regardless. No shame in that.

Put 100 coaches in a room and ask them to draft a QB to play a college season with, Kizer or Book. Who gets picked more? Do you really think it's Book? Come on now...

No one said best qb ever. 2019 book was better in every aspect than any year of Kizer. More yards more Tds less ints better completion more wins. Had kizer stayed instead of leaving maybe it’s a different conversation but with the evidence at hand book was certainly a better ND qb than Kizer was.

 

[Irish2155]

Funny how the narratives fluctuate. This time last year IE was predicting an improvement in the passing game because Coan could consistently see over the OL, a trait Book lacked.

DeShone Kizer stunted his own career by leaving two college years on the table and then getting Browns'd, but the guy had a getter QB rating than Book, despite 2016, and played well enough to be drafted in the second round. Not too shabby. Book made the most of his physical potential but DeShone Kizer was obviously the more talented QB.

Naw bro. You fluctuate narratives big. You take facts and twist them into narrative.

You’re a weird mother fucker

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Ian book career

DeShone Kizer

He had a 1 point better rating in 2015 than 2019 Book.

Book had more tds, less ints, more yards with their respective best years.
They both regressed in their last year at ND.

 

[BilboBaggins]

Naw bro. You fluctuate narratives big. You take facts and twist them into narrative.

You’re a weird mother fucker

Are you alright? It's just sports man. DeShone Kizer or Ian Book do not even know you exist, no need to get this worked up.

Anyway, some IE quotes after Coan got on the radar for ND, through week one.

Clearly, a fan base that was not ready to move on from a QB who couldn't see over the OL to throw slants or deep balls. /s

'17 NY QB Jack Coan (Notre Dame Transfer)

QB West Sayville, NY Sayville HS Measurements: Height: 6-3 Weight: 185 Rankings: 247 Comp:..... 3* ..... #11 QB Pro ..... #278 OA ..... .8800 rating 247:.............. 3* ..... #12 QB Pro ..... #289 OA ...... 88 Rivals:........... 4* ..... #13 QB Pro .......................... 5.8...

www.irishenvy.com

"Coan can push the ball down field with the right weapons and usage better than Book, this is a solid signing if happens. Those two kickers are the real questions"

"Nice to see a QB who stays in the pocket! Looks like he goes through his progressions too without panicking."

"A QB that sets his feet and steps up in the pocket will be interesting to watch next year."

"A QB that is decisive. That will take a while to get use to"

"Would love to know what offense you'd have run with pedestrian WR core and a QB who can't throw a slant because he isn't tall enough to see over OL"

"Definitely more willing to let it rip than Book. That’s what we all want, just know that more interceptions will come with that. Gotta take the good w/ the bad...at least he gives receivers a chance."

"The narrative has been our receivers don't get open. Well film study on some of the experts/pods ect show that is just not ALWAYS the case. There were multiple times when guys had half a step or more and Book didn't see them or showed that Book (who I loved btw) would not throw the damn ball and throw receivers open. The odd times he did, plays were made. It may have been more of a "vision" thing, just not seeing the play developed downfield.

The fact that ex. Duke's QB was making throws downfield is an example of this vision. Book just wouldn't take any chances/shots to even keep teams honest. Each year he seemed to pull back a little bit more. His first year as a starter, he seemed to sling it a lot more then he did later on.

Now go watch Coan's film. Yeah he hits the wide open guy, any QB would, but he also throws a nice deep ball and lets his WR adjust and make themselves open. That is a key component that was seriously lacking from IBs game.

Will we lose a guy from the QB room? Probably, but guess what. This is big boy rules. Put up or Shut up. Clamoring for a Tyler B (twitter is a mess) is just silly. The guy obviously is an athlete, but is also a guy who got hurt as a Soph, played weak comp as a Junior and didn't have a senior season. We don't know what we have yet. Anyone who says different is lying to themselves. Tyler Davis in your face is a helluva lot different the a HS DT."

"As long as our line next year doesn't regress significantly and the receivers stay healthy, this should be an upgrade to the passing game IMO. That's not a knock on Book. Coan will have two stud RBs, what should be a good to great offensive line again even with 4 new starters, an elite tight end, and a plethora of receivers that will hopefully remain healthy or take the next step that run sub 4.7 40s. I will certainly miss Book's escape ability, but this feels about as good of a 1 year fill in as you can get since we can't bank on Buchner being ready with no football in Cali this past year."

"Was just coming here to post that. This season is going to be so weird with a QB that is tall and wants to attack all parts of the field."

"Really excited for Coan. Think he will be a much different QB than what we are used to."

"At the very least, it feels like we’re going to see them push the ball downfield quite a bit more. The question will be does it produce results. I’m cautiously optimistic it will."

"Book’s arm strength was never the problem. He was averse to even attempting it"

"Book's arm strength was never really the issue. It was more his willingness to let it fly down field. Coan, for his apparent lack of arm strength, appears to at least have the vision and/or willingness that Book lacked. And that's exactly what the passing offense needed."

"If book is our QB last night, we don't win that game. (I'm a big fan of Ian)"

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Ian book career
View attachment 3051353
DeShone Kizer
View attachment 3051354
He had a 1 point better rating in 2015 than 2019 Book.

Book had more tds, less ints, more yards with their respective best years.
They both regressed in their last year at ND.

I’ll go even a bit further and say that if you really look at the numbers they really don’t deviate that much from the following.

220 completions
340 attempts
8 y/a
2800 yards per season
25 TDs
7 int
QB rating 145

Almost like it’s the stats derive from Kelly’s SYSTEM

Clear outlier is 2019 Ian book and 2017 Ian Book

For example Jack Coan pretty much has th same stats for Kelly but it appears that Coans year was better than anyone else’s. Go figure.

 

[Bluto]

Kizer in 2015 and 2016 played on teams with the worst DC in ND history. People seem to forget that football is a complementary game in terms of offense and defense. Give Kizer semi competent D in 2015 and 2016 and I think his stats are way better. I also think Kizer could have maximized what Claypool, Boykin and others brought to the table. I mean Kizer was a bigger, more accurate version of Wimbush. Put him on that 2017 team throwing behind that line, with that run game…Lordy.

 

[BilboBaggins]

Almost like it’s the stats derive from Kelly’s SYSTEM

Clear outlier is 2019 Ian book and 2017 Ian Book

For example Jack Coan pretty much has th same stats for Kelly but it appears that Coans year was better than anyone else’s. Go figure.

Don't the wins derive from Kelly's system too?

I think we all watched these guys play and there is a reason Kizer was drafted in the second round, Book was drafted in the fourth round, and Coan went undrafted.

I believe that Kizer had a higher upside as a college QB, but Book was obviously, in any metric, the better college achiever.
Kizer took his higher upside into the pros and blew it. Ian will, in my opinion, continue to get more and more integrated to
league play, and will have a far better NFL career --- though that will be for the future to demonstrate. I also think that Ian might just stick around in the league long enough to be considered to have had a better career than Clausen or even Quinn. (though both those guys were more dangerous college quarterbacks.) We all need to give Ian a standing ovation for his accomplishment.

This is another OMM quote:

Kizer + Good team Health = play-offs.

Championship? Probably not.

Kizer, in my opinion, was the only Kelly QB good enough to win a playoff game, playing like his normal performance would indicate. We've had other erratically performing super athletes like Golson who just might make a miracle, but consistent QBing ... that was Kizer.

 

[Old Man Mike]

You seem to have a serious need to take personal swipes at people. That characteristic is close to the definition of a non-collegial low social intelligence person, who probably turns all his interactions into crap. Edgar Rice Burroughs wrote the following in Tarzan of the Apes: " If you will pardon my candor, I might remark that you are somewhat of an ass, don't you know."

Blessed be the ignore buttons as they are the gateways to exchanges of peace.

 

[SeekNDestroy]

You seem to have a serious need to take personal swipes at people. That characteristic is close to the definition of a non-collegial low social intelligence person, who probably turns all his interactions into crap. Edgar Rice Burroughs wrote the following in Tarzan of the Apes: " If you will pardon my candor, I might remark that you are somewhat of an ass, don't you know."

Sounds like me.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Don't the wins derive from Kelly's system too?

I think we all watched these guys play and there is a reason Kizer was drafted in the second round, Book was drafted in the fourth round, and Coan went undrafted.


This is another OMM quote:

Yes. Kelly’s system took mostly 4 and three stars and maxes their abilities. His offenses were pretty much tailored such that a given amount of production can be expected. Come he’ll or high water we were gonna get 28 points a game and produce 400 yards of offense. I’d say Kizer was drafted purely on physical tangibles more than anything else. He only lasted what two years in the pros? I’m not going to judge him or Book or Coan based on their draft spot or pro career. Doesn’t mean anything to me regarding their college careers.

 

[Irish4life]

Kelly's offenses were built around a physical, dominant ground attack + efficient QB play. Book gave ND that.

 

[BilboBaggins]

You seem to have a serious need to take personal swipes at people. That characteristic is close to the definition of a non-collegial low social intelligence person, who probably turns all his interactions into crap. Edgar Rice Burroughs wrote the following in Tarzan of the Apes: " If you will pardon my candor, I might remark that you are somewhat of an ass, don't you know."

Blessed be the ignore buttons as they are the gateways to exchanges of peace.

This is pretty sad coming from you, OMM. All I did was point out that you yourself once regarded Kizer as having the ability to get Notre Dame a win in a playoff game. I haven't swiped at anyone here, I was the one called a "weird mother fucker" for suggesting that the IE narrative of Ian Book has changed dramatically.

 

[stlnd01]

Don't the wins derive from Kelly's system too?

I think we all watched these guys play and there is a reason Kizer was drafted in the second round, Book was drafted in the fourth round, and Coan went undrafted.


This is another OMM quote:

Given the obvious difference in physical tools, the fact that Kizer was taken in the second round and Book taken just two rounds later says a lot about Book’s mental game and what he actually accomplished on the field.

 

[BilboBaggins]

Given the obvious difference in physical tools, the fact that Kizer was taken in the second round and Book taken just two rounds later says a lot about Book’s mental game and what he actually accomplished on the field.

Yeah it says Ian Book absolutely maximized his potential. This might sound weird to everyone getting defensive, but I am an Ian Book fan. Seems like a tremendous guy and I enjoyed watching him quarterback a lot of wins for Notre Dame football.

But I don't really care for this narrative switcheroo. I am also not going to ignore that Ian Book had glaring flaws in his game, and that plenty of IE posters were ready to move on from the winningest QB in Notre Dame history. Like Kizer, Ian Book also left eligibility on the table. I have yet to see someone write "man if only Ian Book would have returned for 2021.." Instead, people were predicting an improvement in the passing game for 2021, as cited on this thread after I was called a "weird mother fucker" for making the claim. IMO Ian Book embodied where the program has been the last few years: win a lot of game against teams you should beat, and also get exposed athletically against the elite teams.

 

[stlnd01]

Yeah it says Ian Book absolutely maximized his potential. This might sound weird to everyone getting defensive, but I am an Ian Book fan. Seems like a tremendous guy and I enjoyed watching him quarterback a lot of wins for Notre Dame football.

But I don't really care for this narrative switcheroo. I am also not going to ignore that Ian Book had glaring flaws in his game, and that plenty of IE posters were ready to move on from the winningest QB in Notre Dame history. Like Kizer, Ian Book also left eligibility on the table. I have yet to see someone write "man if only Ian Book would have returned for 2021.." Instead, people were predicting an improvement in the passing game for 2021, as cited on this thread after I was called a "weird mother fucker" for making the claim. IMO Ian Book embodied where the program has been the last few years: win a lot of game against teams you should beat, and also get exposed athletically against the elite teams.

You kicked off this debate by saying: “Kizer was better than Book. Is this even debated?”

I guess it depends on what we mean by “better.” It’s certainly debatable.

Kizer had better tools, a higher ceiling, and I probably agree with OMM statement that of recent Notre Dame quarterbacks he’s the one most likely to win a playoff game. But he also led a four-win team.

Book was a smarter QB who made fewer mistakes (partly b/c he took fewer risks) and within the constructs of what he was asked to do was more effective at actually winning games. He took us to the playoffs twice and you can’t win playoff games if you don’t get there.

Both had big holes in their games. Both certainly could have been better. If Kizer had come back for 2017 maybe (probably?) things are different. Personally I’d have been happy to see Book back last year but the guy was understandably ready to move on and frankly it was nice to have a QB who’d push the ball downfield sometimes, even if he was a pylon in the pocket.

Either way I liked Kizer and sorry he landed on the Browns. I’m glad to see Book getting his legs under him in the NFL. And I hope Buchners better than either of them.

 

[ulukinatme]

If you're judging a quarterback by how many games the team won when they played, well the answer doesn't require much thought. Book has more wins than any ND quarterback. But who seriously thinks he is the best ND quarterback ever?

Book wasn't even statistically better, or run a better offense than 2015. Book was known as a QB with obvious limitations and maximized his potential regardless. No shame in that.

Put 100 coaches in a room and ask them to draft a QB to play a college season with, Kizer or Book. Who gets picked more? Do you really think it's Book? Come on now...

Book never had a Will Fuller to throw to, a guy that could really take the top off a defense. He had Claypool for one year which was pretty good for a possession guy, but his next best WR was Finke. Loved Finke, Ohio native, but that's a pretty far drop off. Kizer also had St. Brown, and steady guys like Chris Brown and Corey Robinson.
While Book had some decent OL to play behind...Kizer had Stanley, McGlinchey, Mustipher, Elmer, Nick Martin, Bars, and Quenton fuckin' Nelson. That's an embarrassment of riches! It's no wonder Kizer had quite an offense in 2015. With that OL we nearly had two RBs go for 1000 yards that year with Procise and Josh Adams.
Needless to say, the deck was stacked in Kizer's favor.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Someone, preferably Bilbo, describe what criteria should be used for "best".

Book was limited but outproduced Kizer. Book was shorter, bailed on his reads often and saw phantoms when a clean pocket formed. He had more complete teams and he ended as our winningest QB ever.

Kizer had more "tools" but he was hit and miss in the clutch. He could throw a beautiful downfield ball but then would try to force things unnecessarily. His teams were less complete but he had consistent receiving options.

I'll never remember Kizer as a "great" ND QB because he wasn't. He left a year on the table and never gave us a great season. His lasting memory for me is Stanford.

I'll always remember Book for giving me 3 really fun seasons, despite his limitations. His unwillingness to go through his progressions made me crazy but his escapability/running were also tons of fun. And his makeshift, forward pitch in the UNC game that almost made Herbstreit have an aneurysm is a cherished memory.

 

[notredomer23]

I don’t think this is a debate if Kizer foolishly didn’t leave early. But sophisticated folks like myself know we’ll never have another QB like Clausen in 2009.

 

[GrangerIrish24]

I think if Kizer stayed for 2017, this conversation would be different