'13 PA OT Mike McGlinchey (Notre Dame Signed LOI)

[IrishLax]

You can "think" all you want...but you, or I, or anyone else has no idea how Wimbush is going to perform on Saturdays.

I think he's more talented..but I'm more confident with Kizer next year, over a guy who none of us has seen take any snaps.

That's your prerogative, I say give me Wimbush and let Kizer do his thing in the NFL.

 

[IrishBroker]

That's your prerogative, I say give me Wimbush and let Kizer do his thing in the NFL.

It's not that I'm not on team Wimbush...I'm just "you don't know how good you had it, til it was gone"

LOL

 

[irishog77]

As a Miami alum, I can tell you Kizer in the pocket is the second coming of Big Ben. Why do you think so many experts have him #1 or #2? Dude reeks of Sundays.

And he'll only get better when he doesn't have to waste time on read option and designed running plays. Drop back look WR-1, WR-2, TE, RB, if no one's open throw it out of bounds, avoid sack and get 'em next down. He will kill it.

Kizer still has some issues with accuracy, location, footwork, fundamentals, and an ability to run an NFL-style offense.

I think most of those can be fixed though. He was never really an all-in football player until 13 months ago. He had baseball in high school and was on the scout team as a FR at ND (and a non-EE to boot). More practice and development would help him out a lot. I can see Kizer being a disaster though if he is Cleveland's (or Chicago, etc.) starting QB 11 months from now.

 

[Domina Nostra]

You can "think" all you want...but you, or I, or anyone else has no idea how Wimbush is going to perform on Saturdays.

I think he's more talented..but I'm more confident with Kizer next year, over a guy who none of us has seen take any snaps.

That's your prerogative, I say give me Wimbush and let Kizer do his thing in the NFL.

I agree with IrishBroker. A good example is wanting McGlinchey over Stanley, or Stanley over Martin. A lot of people say Martin had the lowest upside, but it's really just hard to top that kind of performance on a consistent level.

I would obviously love to be wrong!

 

[dwshade]

That's your prerogative, I say give me Wimbush and let Kizer do his thing in the NFL.

Doesn't want the best QB on the team back next year. Brilliant.

 

[IrishLax]

I think Wimbush is really great too but I say that regarding his HS film and the few snaps he took last year. Just curious why you think he's better than Kizer? This statement excites me as you seem to know a ton about NDFB.

I think he's going to be better, because I think he has talent perfectly suited to the college game. He has speed and athleticism that is unreal for the QB position... he can make plays with his legs like Lamaar Jackson. He has an elite arm, and while I think Kizer right now is definitely a superior pocket passer, I think Wimbush will put fear into the heart of defenses like we haven't seen a ND QB do this century.

Kizer is extremely good, best QB we've had since Quinn. But Wimbush has the ability to do things like what Cam Newton and Mariota did where teams have no clue how to defend them because you can't take away everything that they do. Where Kizer is athletic and can make plays with his athleticism... Wimbush is the kind of guy that if you let him get loose it's a death sentence. He's not quite the athlete of Denard Robinson, but imagine if Denard had a cannon for an arm and "good enough" accuracy. I've legitimately heard he's faster than most of our WRs and RBs. I don't know how you defend a running attack that involves him... and if you sell out to stop that, how do you defend the vertical passing game with our weapons?

Ok. So what does one do better than the other? What makes Kizer better or Wimbush better?

If Kizer goes in the draft, do you guys think Wimbush will hit the ground running better than Kizer is now or will be at the end of this season? If not, how long will it take Wimbush to get to Kizer's level right now?

Kizer is a much more advanced pocket passer. Wimbush is significantly more athletic and has a stronger arm. I don't think Wimbush will be able to do what Kizer does in terms of going through progressions, standing tall in the pocket and hitting tons of tough throws over the middle. But Kizer struggles throwing to his right with sometimes questionable mechanics, and isn't perfect.

What I think will make Wimbush a seamless transition is that you can run the "Zaire" offense... but with a plus passing game, and home run threat at QB.

Are you getting that vibe from everyone around the Gug?

Last year, when Kizer was given the reigns, a lot of people thought it might not last and that Wimbush might supplant him on talent despite inexperience. But Kizer ended up being so legit that the discussion was basically dropped entirely after the USC game. Some of the throws Kizer made in that game were UNREAL. The one throw to Fuller on the sideline was one of the best passes I've ever seen a college QB make.

Coming into this year, people all kind of said the same thing... that Zaire/Kizer looked good enough that you had to RS Wimbush this year, but when you watch all three work Wimbush's "talent" or "ability" was incredible. I've never heard people talk about a QB the way they talk about Wimbush... that's about a 10 year period with some pretty meh QBs... but it's usually "he does this and that well, but he could work on this other thing." The only knock I've heard on Wimbush is inconsistent accuracy, which frankly does not matter that much with the style of offense we'd run. Pretty much everything else is superlative... there is nothing but praise.

 

[BobbyMac]

Kizer still has some issues with accuracy, location, footwork, fundamentals, and an ability to run an NFL-style offense.

I think most of those can be fixed though. He was never really an all-in football player until 13 months ago. He had baseball in high school and was on the scout team as a FR at ND (and a non-EE to boot). More practice and development would help him out a lot. I can see Kizer being a disaster though if he is Cleveland's (or Chicago, etc.) starting QB 11 months from now.

I can argue both sides of everything you brought up. There is nothing in DK's game that says he won't be a success in the NFL and I can point out Ryan Leaf and a host of others that were in the same boat.

No one can directly answer who is better. 18 months ago everyone here was leaving DK out of the ND QB convo's and projecting BW to leap frog him when MZ left. Now, guys who get paid 7 figures are talking about DK being the 1st-3rd QB taken in the draft and we still have guys thinking BW is a better option for next year.

I'm not afraid of BW starting against Temple next year but I don't think there is any logical evidence that would point to him being a better choice than DK if he were to return.

 

[IrishLax]

Doesn't want the best QB on the team back next year. Brilliant.

Bad at reading or something? I mean, that obviously seems to be the case considering how many times I had to explain to you with multiple links that DeShaun Watson was recruited by Georgia and you still didn't grasp it. Or how you argued for punting on 4th & short in plus territory when no statistics support it. Or pick one of a million other examples.

There is evidence that Kizer is extremely talented and can run an elite offense. There is no evidence that Wimbush couldn't do better. Really that simple. Scenario has played out the same way at many other schools over the years, like with Darron Thomas and Mariota as I mentioned. Everyone thought he was "crazy" for leaving early, then it was "Chip Kelly is crazing for saying this unproven guy would've won the job over him if he stayed." Well...

 

[stlnd01]

If Kizer and Nelson come back do we lose any starters on offense next year?

 

[Domina Nostra]

Doesn't want the best QB on the team back next year. Brilliant.

What IrishLax is saying is that he thinks Wimbush IS the best QB on the team.

My response is that Kizer is too good to realistically expect better. But that doesn't mean it can't happen!

Last year, when Kizer was given the reigns, a lot of people thought it might not last and that Wimbush might supplant him on talent despite inexperience. But Kizer ended up being so legit that the discussion was basically dropped entirely after the USC game. Some of the throws Kizer made in that game were UNREAL. The one throw to Fuller on the sideline was one of the best passes I've ever seen a college QB make.

Coming into this year, people all kind of said the same thing... that Zaire/Kizer looked good enough that you had to RS Wimbush this year, but when you watch all three work Wimbush's "talent" or "ability" was incredible. I've never heard people talk about a QB the way they talk about Wimbush... that's about a 10 year period with some pretty meh QBs... but it's usually "he does this and that well, but he could work on this other thing." The only knock I've heard on Wimbush is inconsistent accuracy, which frankly does not matter that much with the style of offense we'd run. Pretty much everything else is superlative... there is nothing but praise.

I'll take that!

 

[stlnd01]

Re: Wimbush, I'd rather have Kizer but would be OK with BW. Trick is who's behind him in case he goes down. Not figuring Zaire sticks around at this point.

 

[IrishLax]

It's not that I'm not on team Wimbush...I'm just "you don't know how good you had it, til it was gone"

LOL

I'm usually in this camp. Said stuff recently along these lines for guys like Farley, etc. People rag on guys until they're gone and then it's "ohhhhh shiiiiiiitttt".... there's the whole thing about at ND the "favorite player is the backup QB." This could be one of those times.

I think the difference is everyone knows Kizer is great. He's obviously good enough to win a championship. Ultimately, Kizer coming back because he is a known quantity and injuries happen would certainly on paper be better on paper than him leaving early.

I'm more saying that if he leaves because his draft stock is high I think the offense will actually grade out better next year regardless... even with a very hard schedule. I think everyone is extremely confident in what Wimbush will be able to do, and I'm fine with Kizer going to the pros now. There is a lot mechanically he could still work on, but a lot of times QBs have their draft stock crushed by coming back for another year and people over analyzing why they "didn't improve" or "regressed." I'd like to see him cash in now if given the opportunity.

 

[IrishLax]

If Kizer and Nelson come back do we lose any starters on offense next year?

Only Hunter if he moves on, or McGovern if he looses his job to someone. We'd also return 8/9 on defense depending on how you view Onwualu/Luke considering Luke is basically playing nickel now and how often Onwualu is off the field.

 

[irishff1014]

Wow good news

 

[Sherm Sticky]

I'm so confused. I opened this thread thinking there would be talk of this bruising offensive linemen.

Yet as always it's turned into pretty boy QB talk.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Buster Bluth]

I'm so confused. I opened this thread thinking there would be talk of this bruising offensive linemen.

Yet as always it's turned into pretty boy QB talk.

Oh I think there'll be a whole offseason thread for the OL lineup, considering 2/5 of the lineup aren't what I'd called "anointed" OL recruits like Hoge/Kraemer/Eichenberg. One or more of those guys simply may be too good to keep off the field--but it's tough to bench a returning OL starter.

Having McGlinchey back is big news. One would think HH has the inside track of retaining Nelson's services too.

I'm pretty much in the "playoff contender even with Kizer camp" too. The hype will all come down to the DC hire though.

But one guy we can't forget about is Alize Jones. I just don't know how you'd defend an offense with 5/5 returning OL, the #1 draft pick at QB, St. Brown and Stepherson/Hunter on the outside, Sanders and Jones underneath and two of the most talented RBs in recent Irish memory also doing their thing. For-fucking-get about keeping that contained for four quarters.

 

[IrishLax]

Oh I think there'll be a whole offseason thread for the OL lineup, considering 2/5 of the lineup aren't what I'd called "anointed" OL recruits like Hoge/Kraemer/Eichenberg. One or more of those guys simply may be too good to keep off the field--but it's tough to bench a returning OL starter.

Having McGlinchey back is big news. One would think HH has the inside track of retaining Nelson's services too.

I'm pretty much in the "playoff contender even with Kizer camp" too. The hype will all come down to the DC hire though.

But one guy we can't forget about is Alize Jones. I just don't know how you'd defend an offense with 5/5 returning OL, the #1 draft pick at QB, St. Brown and Stepherson/Hunter on the outside, Sanders and Jones underneath and two of the most talented RBs in recent Irish memory also doing their thing. For-fucking-get about keeping that contained for four quarters.

If both McGlinchey and Nelson return, I think it's literally the best offensive group I've ever seen at ND by a country mile.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

If both McGlinchey and Nelson return, I think it's literally the best offensive group I've ever seen at ND by a country mile.

Not even a debate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Irish#1]

You'd be just as confident heading into next year regardless of if the QB is Wimbush or Kizer?

I'm not sure I understand that. Undoubtedly Kizer is the better QB at this time, and more then likely, at that time. It might have the same upside (best offense in the country), but Kizer would certainly provide less downside. Therefore, more confidence.

I'll take it a step further. When they were both untapped potential, Wimbush had more speed and a stronger arm, Kizer had more size and the overall athletic IQ (in terms of thriving in multiple sports). Both were relatively unpolished, but maybe Wimbush had a little more.

Now that Kizer has had gotten experience, I think there is absolutely no basis to think Wimbush will be more effective then Kizer. Maybe he will be, but the bar is set MUCH, MUCH higher than when Wimbush, Zaire, and Kizer were all untapped and we were projecting. At this point, Kizer is the man and Wimbush is all potential.

Yeah I don't get that logic at all. The difference between a 3rd year SR. starter and an unknown 1st year starter is huge. We know for certain that Kizer is a high NFL draft pick regardless of which year he goes. We don't know what Wimbush will be.

Agree, there will be no QB controversy next year if DK comes back. I do think he is gone after this season.

 

[irishff1014]

Re: Wimbush, I'd rather have Kizer but would be OK with BW. Trick is who's behind him in case he goes down. Not figuring Zaire sticks around at this point.

You will have Book or Jurkovec

 

[irishff1014]

Oh I think there'll be a whole offseason thread for the OL lineup, considering 2/5 of the lineup aren't what I'd called "anointed" OL recruits like Hoge/Kraemer/Eichenberg. One or more of those guys simply may be too good to keep off the field--but it's tough to bench a returning OL starter.

Having McGlinchey back is big news. One would think HH has the inside track of retaining Nelson's services too.

I'm pretty much in the "playoff contender even with Kizer camp" too. The hype will all come down to the DC hire though.

But one guy we can't forget about is Alize Jones. I just don't know how you'd defend an offense with 5/5 returning OL, the #1 draft pick at QB, St. Brown and Stepherson/Hunter on the outside, Sanders and Jones underneath and two of the most talented RBs in recent Irish memory also doing their thing. For-fucking-get about keeping that contained for four quarters.

I agree with everything Buster said. The only thing is with Jones is your just getting another WR. He isn't an inline tight that can come across in motion and block. Other than that with an experienced O-line plus all these weapons look out.

 

[stlnd01]

If both McGlinchey and Nelson return, I think it's literally the best offensive group I've ever seen at ND by a country mile.

Probably have to go back to the late 80's/early '90s - maybe '92? - for anything close.

 

[Ndaccountant]

You will have Book or Davis

FIFY

 

[irish4ever]

That's your prerogative, I say give me Wimbush and let Kizer do his thing in the NFL.

Fine, just as long as we have a legitimate "plan B" just in case Wimbush would go down. I'm not sure that ND would have that for next season IF Kizer and Zaire are both gone.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

I'm usually in this camp. Said stuff recently along these lines for guys like Farley, etc. People rag on guys until they're gone and then it's "ohhhhh shiiiiiiitttt".... there's the whole thing about at ND the "favorite player is the backup QB." This could be one of those times.

I think the difference is everyone knows Kizer is great. He's obviously good enough to win a championship. Ultimately, Kizer coming back because he is a known quantity and injuries happen would certainly on paper be better on paper than him leaving early.

I'm more saying that if he leaves because his draft stock is high I think the offense will actually grade out better next year regardless... even with a very hard schedule. I think everyone is extremely confident in what Wimbush will be able to do, and I'm fine with Kizer going to the pros now. There is a lot mechanically he could still work on, but a lot of times QBs have their draft stock crushed by coming back for another year and people over analyzing why they "didn't improve" or "regressed." I'd like to see him cash in now if given the opportunity.

I may have missed this because I don't have the drive to read the past couple pages.

Do you believe this offense will be better next year because of the synergy of all the components returning, ie- great experience and continuity or because you believe Wimbush will be at least as good as Kizer? Or both?

I see almost no possible way Wimbush grades out as well as Kizer. Kizer's poise is what sets him apart. Occasionally he presses but usually he's a cool customer, never gets swallowed up by the moment (with some exceptions).

I really wish Kizer would return next year because I believe that's the best possible case for our 2017 team but I won't blame him if he cashes in on a 1st round grade.

The good news for whoever is behind center, is that our OL is potentially going to be more seasoned and we'll have another loaded backfield with: TJ JR, Williams and Adams.

The WRs as a unit will likely be better because they'll have an additional year under their belt and we only lose THJr.

Oh, and we gain a monster safety net in Alize Jones. He would've added so much to the offense this year. I'm happy our TEs are at least catching a pass/game but Alize will be a game breaker running seams,

 

[zelezo vlk]

I want Wimbush to have playing experience before 2018.

 

[Irishnuke]

If he projects as the top OT in the draft I think he'll change his mind. That's a shit load of money to walk away from if he blows out his knee next year. Of course I'd love him to stay but I'm not as optimistic as some.

 

[IrishLax]

I may have missed this because I don't have the drive to read the past couple pages.

Do you believe this offense will be better next year because of the synergy of all the components returning, ie- great experience and continuity or because you believe Wimbush will be at least as good as Kizer? Or both?

I see almost no possible way Wimbush grades out as well as Kizer. Kizer's poise is what sets him apart. Occasionally he presses but usually he's a cool customer, never gets swallowed up by the moment (with some exceptions).

I really wish Kizer would return next year because I believe that's the best possible case for our 2017 team but I won't blame him if he cashes in on a 1st round grade.

The good news for whoever is behind center, is that our OL is potentially going to be more seasoned and we'll have another loaded backfield with: TJ JR, Williams and Adams.

The WRs as a unit will likely be better because they'll have an additional year under their belt and we only lose THJr.

Oh, and we gain a monster safety net in Alize Jones. He would've added so much to the offense this year. I'm happy our TEs are at least catching a pass/game but Alize will be a game breaker running seams,

And Hunter could come back, if he wants (but I think he moves on with life).

To your bigger question, let's look at Kizer's QBR which is an imperfect measure but also tries to measure everything that goes into being a QB. He sits 13th in the country, last year he finished 12th (but with a lower rating than he currently has now). He grades out in the "very good" category. Good enough to win a championship with the right supporting cast. But it's also not Lamar Jackson. It's not like how he's played through 16 games has been truly elite. It's very good, but it's conceivable that someone can play better than he's playing right now... like we saw with Marcus Mariota taking over for Darron Thomas. Darron Thomas had the #11 QBR in 2011... and Chip Kelly pushed him out, because he thought Mariota was better. Mariota finished second in QBR the next year... his first as a starter... to Johnny Manziel.

What I said in an earlier post is that Wimbush, because of his athleticism + arm combo, is basically your ideal "playmaking" college QB. He's faster than almost every skill position player on the team, and our skill position players aren't chumps. He has the ability to be truly transcendent. He's going to add a completely different dimension to the running game that is virtually impossible to defend if you can also attack vertically... and he has the arm and Notre Dame has the receivers to do just that.

Again, on paper, hard to argue we're not best off with both Kizer + Wimbush on roster next year. But I'm extremely confident in Wimbush's abilities to take the offense to another level next year and grade out better than Kizer in metrics like QBR. My main fear would be injury.

 

[ND Fan Vancouver]

Fresh outta solitary. What up Happy Gilmore!

Hahaha! Thanks bro! Didn't know about the copy and paste issue. Was just trying to help my NDFB brothers. I see why that'd be a problem and won't happen again.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

<blockquote class="twitter-video" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/NDFootball">@NDFootball</a> captain <a href="https://twitter.com/BigGlinch68">@bigglinch68</a> gets the surprise of a lifetime from his 13-year-old autistic brother, Jimmy <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BRxND?src=hash">#BRxND</a> <a href="https://t.co/mEQpQBMg2e">pic.twitter.com/mEQpQBMg2e</a></p>— Bleacher Report (@BleacherReport) <a href="https://twitter.com/BleacherReport/status/784079543346663424">October 6, 2016</a></blockquote>
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