'11 SC QB Everett Golson (FSU transfer)

[BobbyMac]

If Golson is starting at QB for us in the fall, then I promise Jimmymac will do a naked lap around campus!

If I were a repper, you'd done got repped.

 

[dshans]

If Golson is starting at QB for us in the fall, then I promise Jimmymac will do a naked lap around campus!

Did I miss the video replay with incontrovertible evidence?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

My 2 cents:

• I'm not ready to throw in the towel on Golson. His ceiling is still ridiculously high. He's got 1st-round draft pick arm talent, and Wilsonian elusiveness. If he can just learn how to competently execute an option and how to secure the f*cking football when he runs, he'll make a run at the Heisman next year. But while those two things shouldn't be that hard to learn, they're crucial. If Golson can't improve significantly in those two areas during the off-season, he simply can't be our QB.
• I don't think schematic comparisons to 2012 are very helpful. Opposing defenses were still using the Rees game-plan to defend Golson, which is why he converted so many 3rd downs with his legs. We also had a much better OL-- Martin and Watt on the left, Braxton and Golic in the middle (both of whom were very good at pulling and run-blocking), and a healthy Lombard at RT (which we haven't had over the last two years)-- as well as better/ more experienced RBs. Unless Kelly is willing to endorse a major scheme change to a run-first spread (a la Auburn, Oregon or OSU), we're still going to look more like aTm and Clemson next season. And that's fine, as long as our QB poses a genuine rushing threat. A Golson who inexplicably can't execute the option doesn't pose such a threat, which creates major problems for the offensive scheme.
• I wouldn't read too much into the "Malik playbook" vs. LSU. That was a specific gameplan for a defense that: (1) had virtually no film on Zaire; and (2) had been gashed several times by option-running QBs during 2014 already. If that became our base offense, opponents would adjust to it and efficiency would trend down. Sample size of 1, etc.

 

[BobbyMac]

Well the if scoring 40 isn't "humming" I don't know what will satisfy this site, and I feel very sorry for Malik next year because walking on water will dissapoint some posters at this rate.

As to the bowl performance, I would say it's far more likely the consistent implementation of the running game was the catalyst of our fortune. Not the QB handing the ball off.

What do you think would have happened had EG taken every snap in the game assuming the same consistent running plan was implemented?

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[greyhammer90]

What do you think would have happened had EG taken every snap in the game assuming the same consistent running plan was implemented?

.

We would have won? What kind of question is that? What do you think would have happened?

 

[greyhammer90]

My 2 cents:

• I wouldn't read too much into the "Malik playbook" vs. LSU. That was a specific gameplan for a defense that: (1) had virtually no film on Zaire; and (2) had been gashed several times by option-running QBs during 2014 already. If that became our base offense, opponents would adjust to it and efficiency would trend down. Sample size of 1, etc.

This is a very important point that I didn't get into because I didn't want it to seem like I'm anti-Zaire.

 

[BobbyMac]

My 2 cents:

• I'm not ready to throw in the towel on Golson. His ceiling is still ridiculously high. He's got 1st-round draft pick arm talent, and Wilsonian elusiveness. If he can just learn how to competently execute an option and how to secure the f*cking football when he runs, he'll make a run at the Heisman next year. But while those two things shouldn't be that hard to learn, they're crucial. If Golson can't improve significantly in those two areas during the off-season, he simply can't be our QB.
• I don't think schematic comparisons to 2012 are very helpful. Opposing defenses were still using the Rees game-plan to defend Golson, which is why he converted so many 3rd downs with his legs. We also had a much better OL-- Martin and Watt on the left, Braxton and Golic in the middle (both of whom were very good at pulling and run-blocking), and a healthy Lombard at RT (which we haven't had over the last two years)-- as well as better/ more experienced RBs. Unless Kelly is willing to endorse a major scheme change to a run-first spread (a la Auburn, Oregon or OSU), we're still going to look more like aTm and Clemson next season.
• I wouldn't read too much into the "Malik playbook" vs. LSU. That was a specific gameplan for a defense that: (1) had virtually no film on Zaire; and (2) had been gashed several times by option-running QBs during 2014 already. If that became our base offense, opponents would adjust to it and efficiency would trend down. Sample size of 1, etc.

As usual, it's hard to argue with your logic BUT:

The guy who struggled at the end of this year was first exposed to this system 4 years ago. I know it hasn't been a traditional 4 years by any means but it's still 4 years. I don't think he has the mental make-up to play well enough to win every game. ND most likely, screw that they have to win every game next year to get to what ND plays for... a shot at the national title. From his body of work, I say it's 100% chance that he would lose at least one game therefore I'll ride with the kid who is gonna be here in '16 & '17.

.

 

[BobbyMac]

We would have won? What kind of question is that? What do you think would have happened?

Are you an attorney?

 

[Irish Insanity]

Whiskey, well stated. And that is why I think Golson would put himself in a better situation if he picked a team that suited him better. Kelly isn't gonna change his O to help Golson.

 

[IrishinSyria]

How many times do you want your QB running the ball per game? Mariota this year has something like 125 rushes (including sacks). That is roughly 9 rushes per game.

As I pointed out before, EG ran the ball that much and more in select games in 2012 and was effective. With the proper design, he can be a threat.

Yea, I mean... is there a huge body of film that I'm not aware of showing Golson failing to run the zone read on a consistent basis? There's no doubt that we didn't run it much while he was in..but I don't understand why that automatically = Golson can't zone read.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The guy who struggled at the end of this year was first exposed to this system 4 years ago. I know it hasn't been a traditional 4 years by any means but it's still 4 years. I don't think he has the mental make-up to play well enough to win every game. ND most likely, screw that they have to win every game next year to get to what ND plays for... a shot at the national title. From his body of work, I say it's 100% chance that he would lose at least one game therefore I'll ride with the kid who is gonna be here in '16 & '17.

You may be right, but it's hard to turn the page on a QB who would be a legitimate Heisman candidate if he could simply learn how to fix a couple minor issues with his game. Why he's been unable to do that in 4 years is beyond me, though.

Are you an attorney?

Of course he is. This board is infested with them.

Whiskey, well stated. And that is why I think Golson would put himself in a better situation if he picked a team that suited him better. Kelly isn't gonna change his O to help Golson.

But can Golson change to be successful in Kelly's single-back spread sets? It wouldn't take much. Maybe 5-10 option plays per game, and learn how to tuck the ball when he keeps. That's all.

Yea, I mean... is there a huge body of film that I'm not aware of showing Golson failing to run the zone read on a consistent basis? There's no doubt that we didn't run it much while he was in..but I don't understand why that automatically = Golson can't zone read.

It's a negative inference we're drawing, but it's a pretty strong one in this case. Running the ball well from the sort of single-back spread sets that Kelly favors requires a QB who can execute the option. Otherwise you're constantly at a numerical disadvantage at the point of attack, and it makes your offense much easier to defend. In fact, I can't think of a single program nationally who utilizes Kelly's preferred sets without an option QB. So the fact that Kelly isn't calling option plays for Golson is a pretty telling sign that the kid can't execute them well; because the offense would function a lot better if he could.

 

[BobbyMac]

It's a negative inference we're drawing, but it's a pretty strong one in this case. Running the ball well from the sort of single-back spread sets that Kelly favors requires a QB who can execute the option. Otherwise you're constantly at a numerical disadvantage at the point of attack, and it makes your offense much easier to defense. In fact, I can't think of a single program nationally who utilizes Kelly's preferred sets without an option QB. So the fact that Kelly isn't calling option plays for Golson is a pretty telling sign that the kid can't execute them well; because the offense would function a lot better if he could.

How can something so logical be this eloquent? Think I'm gonna have this tattooed next to my Nietzsche.

So you are on board in theory, just not application... yet.

.

 

[Ndaccountant]

My 2 cents:

• I'm not ready to throw in the towel on Golson. His ceiling is still ridiculously high. He's got 1st-round draft pick arm talent, and Wilsonian elusiveness. If he can just learn how to competently execute an option and how to secure the f*cking football when he runs, he'll make a run at the Heisman next year. But while those two things shouldn't be that hard to learn, they're crucial. If Golson can't improve significantly in those two areas during the off-season, he simply can't be our QB.
  [*]I don't think schematic comparisons to 2012 are very helpful. Opposing defenses were still using the Rees game-plan to defend Golson, which is why he converted so many 3rd downs with his legs. We also had a much better OL-- Martin and Watt on the left, Braxton and Golic in the middle (both of whom were very good at pulling and run-blocking), and a healthy Lombard at RT (which we haven't had over the last two years)-- as well as better/ more experienced RBs. Unless Kelly is willing to endorse a major scheme change to a run-first spread (a la Auburn, Oregon or OSU), we're still going to look more like aTm and Clemson next season. And that's fine, as long as our QB poses a genuine rushing threat. A Golson who inexplicably can't execute the option doesn't pose such a threat, which creates major problems for the offensive scheme.
• I wouldn't read too much into the "Malik playbook" vs. LSU. That was a specific gameplan for a defense that: (1) had virtually no film on Zaire; and (2) had been gashed several times by option-running QBs during 2014 already. If that became our base offense, opponents would adjust to it and efficiency would trend down. Sample size of 1, etc.

Sorry.....I am not sure the data really supports your second point. As noted in this thread, in 2014 we recorded a rush (via run or sack) 50% of the time.....47% without sacks. In 2012, that number was 58%. During Tommy's run in 2011 and 2013, the number was 50% and 48%.

The numbers actually seem to point to 2014 being more of BK (or Tommy if you prefer) and 2012 being an anomaly even though TOP and TO differential were the best under Kelly. Even more alarming......TO differential in 2010, 2011, 2013 & 2014 is -18. 2012 was +8. Even allowing for the defense advantage that year, one could argue that the offense design that is employed now versus 2014 isn't worth the marginal yards per game and pts per game differential to 2012.

http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/notre-dame-football/229635-fun-numbers-2014-season.html#post1433381

EDIT - And more to your other points in this thread, if Kelly is hellbent on this offense, he needs a QB that can execute the run well and also throw the ball very well. After 5 years, he hasn't had a QB at ND able to do this yet. Even if he did strike gold with one, the evidence suggests he would be challenged to duplicate that success. At some point, he needs to self evaluate whether or not his scheme is one that can lead to consistent dominance at ND. This, in my opinion, is a big reason why he continues to dick around with 8/9 win seasons that leaves many frustrated.

 

[IrishinSyria]

It's a negative inference we're drawing, but it's a pretty strong one in this case. Running the ball well from the sort of single-back spread sets that Kelly favors requires a QB who can execute the option. Otherwise you're constantly at a numerical disadvantage at the point of attack, and it makes your offense much easier to defend. In fact, I can't think of a single program nationally who utilizes Kelly's preferred sets without an option QB. So the fact that Kelly isn't calling option plays for Golson is a pretty telling sign that the kid can't execute them well; because the offense would function a lot better if he could.

I see what you're saying, but the few times I remember Kelly dialing up an EG read option this year, the play seemed to work like a charm. Obviously, EG's 60+ yard dash to open things up against Navy comes to mind. But so does his 6 yard keep against LSU on the final drive. His ball carrying is certainly a concern, but I only remember a couple of fumbles this year that really came when Golson was running the ball. Most came when he was trying to keep alive in the pocket or from poor snaps/hand-offs, etc...

I think that Golson CAN run the read option, but Kelly a) didn't want to risk him, b)thought he could use screens and the like to achieve the same basic effect at the point of attack and c) didn't think he needed it (both Bryant and Folston finished with >5 ypc this season).

 

[Irish Insanity]

Whiskey, can he change. I think. Will he under Kelly, I doubt it. There is a lot we don't see, but with what we do see, I just don't see the kind of communication and relationship between them.

 

[returnofthemack]

My 2 cents:

• I'm not ready to throw in the towel on Golson. His ceiling is still ridiculously high. He's got 1st-round draft pick arm talent, and Wilsonian elusiveness. If he can just learn how to competently execute an option and how to secure the f*cking football when he runs, he'll make a run at the Heisman next year. But while those two things shouldn't be that hard to learn, they're crucial. If Golson can't improve significantly in those two areas during the off-season, he simply can't be our QB.
• I don't think schematic comparisons to 2012 are very helpful. Opposing defenses were still using the Rees game-plan to defend Golson, which is why he converted so many 3rd downs with his legs. We also had a much better OL-- Martin and Watt on the left, Braxton and Golic in the middle (both of whom were very good at pulling and run-blocking), and a healthy Lombard at RT (which we haven't had over the last two years)-- as well as better/ more experienced RBs. Unless Kelly is willing to endorse a major scheme change to a run-first spread (a la Auburn, Oregon or OSU), we're still going to look more like aTm and Clemson next season. And that's fine, as long as our QB poses a genuine rushing threat. A Golson who inexplicably can't execute the option doesn't pose such a threat, which creates major problems for the offensive scheme.
• I wouldn't read too much into the "Malik playbook" vs. LSU. That was a specific gameplan for a defense that: (1) had virtually no film on Zaire; and (2) had been gashed several times by option-running QBs during 2014 already. If that became our base offense, opponents would adjust to it and efficiency would trend down. Sample size of 1, etc.

I agree completely. My ideal Golson offseason would be him working his ass off on ball security and the read option, and then watching film and practicing with Russell Wilson to get a feel for how he deals with his height (e.g. finding throwing lanes, passing over the middle, etc.). I think he can make huge strides. The problem is that Kelly will not adapt his system, as was clearly shown by the atrocious gameplanning during Rees' senior year (not playing to Rees' strengths at all). All of you who are clamoring for Zaire will be denigrating him just as much as Everett when Kelly decides to air it out 50 times and Malik's lack of touch is shown on deep passes. You know what else would be ideal, I'd like to hire Jeff Quinn and let him handle playcalling.

 

[returnofthemack]

I see what you're saying, but the few times I remember Kelly dialing up an EG read option this year, the play seemed to work like a charm. Obviously, EG's 60+ yard dash to open things up against Navy comes to mind. But so does his 6 yard keep against LSU on the final drive. His ball carrying is certainly a concern, but I only remember a couple of fumbles this year that really came when Golson was running the ball. Most came when he was trying to keep alive in the pocket or from poor snaps/hand-offs, etc...

I think that Golson CAN run the read option, but Kelly a) didn't want to risk him, b)thought he could use screens and the like to achieve the same basic effect at the point of attack and c) didn't think he needed it (both Bryant and Folston finished with >5 ypc this season).

I'm hopeful that Kelly would let Golson keep it more since Malik has shown how capable he is, giving the team a viable option in case Golson was injured. Kelly could also balance the two QBs like he did with Pike and Collaros. He's not an idiot, just stubborn.

 

[ulukinatme]

Yea, I mean... is there a huge body of film that I'm not aware of showing Golson failing to run the zone read on a consistent basis? There's no doubt that we didn't run it much while he was in..but I don't understand why that automatically = Golson can't zone read.

There's not a huge body of film on Golson running the option because he doesn't do it well when we do run it. He suffers from the same problem Hendrix did, he doesn't read the edge properly to decide if he needs to keep it or hand it off. Zaire did a great job with this, and we ran the hell out of it in the LSU game successfully. I think that tells you everything you need to know. If Golson hasn't grasped the concept yet, I'm not sure he's going to get it next year either.

 

[IrishLax]

Kelly addresses QB Everett Golson's future at Notre Dame - Notre Dame Insider: Notre Dame Football

 

[irishff1014]

Kelly addresses QB Everett Golson's future at Notre Dame - Notre Dame Insider: Notre Dame Football

I read that as anything we didn't know.

 

[IrishinSyria]

There's not a huge body of film on Golson running the option because he doesn't do it well when we do run it. He suffers from the same problem Hendrix did, he doesn't read the edge properly to decide if he needs to keep it or hand it off. Zaire did a great job with this, and we ran the hell out of it in the LSU game successfully. I think that tells you everything you need to know. If Golson hasn't grasped the concept yet, I'm not sure he's going to get it next year either.

This just begs the question though. I understand what it takes to run the read option well, what I'm asking is outside of the fact that we rarely run it while he's in, do we have any evidence (film or quotes from Kelly) indicating that he struggles to read the edge? The reason I ask is that the only two times I remember us running it, they were successful plays. I'm sure there were more though, I just don't remember when.

 

[returnofthemack]

This just begs the question though. I understand what it takes to run the read option well, what I'm asking is outside of the fact that we rarely run it while he's in, do we have any evidence (film or quotes from Kelly) indicating that he struggles to read the edge? The reason I ask is that the only two times I remember us running it, they were successful plays. I'm sure there were more though, I just don't remember when.

There was a quote from Kelly, I forget which game, where he says that if there's any doubt, Golson is always supposed to hand it off. I don't think it's something he can't do well, and if Kelly juggles both QBs, Golson will have to run it well to keep defenses off balance.

 

[Irish#1]

Whiskey, can he change. I think. Will he under Kelly, I doubt it. There is a lot we don't see, but with what we do see, I just don't see the kind of communication and relationship between them.

I would agree with this. I can also remember Golson fumbling in 2012. I don't remember how many and how many he lost, but it was enough to think he needed to correct his fumbling. That's a red flag for me when he comes back this year and it was worse.

 

[PANDFAN]

Lou from 247---Golson is not a natural at the zone read nor the option. Just because he is mobile and elusive and can improvise doesn't mean he can run the zone read or option. It's a separate art.

from UNHD-Zaire and fellow redshirt freshman, running back Greg Bryant, proved to be extremely efficient running the zone read option, an area where Golson reportedly struggled.

 

[ulukinatme]

This just begs the question though. I understand what it takes to run the read option well, what I'm asking is outside of the fact that we rarely run it while he's in, do we have any evidence (film or quotes from Kelly) indicating that he struggles to read the edge? The reason I ask is that the only two times I remember us running it, they were successful plays. I'm sure there were more though, I just don't remember when.

I can't really point you to specific plays, but I can tell you I cringed a number of times this season when we did run the read option with Golson. Overall it wasn't very successful, and a good number of times it was because of a mistake on his part deciding to keep it or hand it off. Hendrix was plagued with the same issue. Logic dictates that if we were successful running it with Golson in the past, we would have kept running it this season, but we didn't.

I did not feel that way about Zaire when he ran it, he was obviously very successful other than the 3rd possession I think...LSU gobbled one up that I remember, but it could have just been a great defensive play. He understands the mechanics and makes a quick decision with the ball. In 1 1/2 games Zaire had more than double the average yards a carry over Golson and came within 100 yards of his total rushing yards for the season.

 

[PANDFAN]

I can't really point you to specific plays, but I can tell you I cringed a number of times this season when we did run the read option with Golson. Overall it wasn't very successful, and a good number of times it was because of a mistake on his part deciding to keep it or hand it off. Hendrix was plagued with the same issue. Logic dictates that if we were successful running it with Golson in the past, we would have kept running it this season, but we didn't.

I did not feel that way about Zaire when he ran it, he was obviously very successful other than the 3rd possession I think...LSU gobbled one up that I remember, but it could have just been a great defensive play. He understands the mechanics and makes a quick decision with the ball. In 1 1/2 games Zaire had more than double the average yards a carry over Golson and came within 100 yards of his total rushing yards for the season.

had he handed it off it was a first down...BUT the blocker got trucked which lead to Zaire having to bounce it out further and their def was way too fast to go sideline to sideline

 

[ulukinatme]

had he handed it off it was a first down...BUT the blocker got trucked which lead to Zaire having to bounce it out further and their def was way too fast to go sideline to sideline

That's what I thought. Overall I remember Zaire doing a terrific job reading the edge and deciding to keep it or hand it off, but I remember one play going really poorly there at the beginning. I just couldn't remember if it was on Zaire or if LSU just did a great job, sounds like Zaire did the best he could on that play given an outstanding job by LSU.

 

[irishtrain]

I read that as anything we didn't know.

What I hear is its up to you my man but I am looking for a leader of this team and a warrior who brings presence to my football team. Golson is the most talented athlete to play the position at Notre Dame in a long time. The ball is in his court and I for one hope he takes this critic and lets it make him better. Kelly is doing just what he should be doing-challenging his player. If he stays you'll know if he's the man by the way he reacts to his mistakes on the sideline. Pull for this guy fellas he's a helluva talent and a good kid. If not the lefty looks like a stud.

 

[kmoose]

Golson is the most talented athlete to play the position at Notre Dame in a long time.

Quinn and Clausen haven't been gone all that long, and they were awfully talented.

 

[BGIF]

Quinn and Clausen haven't been gone all that long, and they were awfully talented.

It seems like they've been gone since Montana left ... the TV commerical one.