'11 OH LB Jarrett Grace (Signed Notre Dame LOI)

Old Man Mike

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Kelly's comment indicates to me that despite lots of nice talk about Joe Schmidt [who I am in standing applause and admiration for what he's accomplished] is not really looked upon as the answer at middle linebacker in 2014. The staff all seem to believe that:

1). Grace is their only high-quality veteran middle backer, and he might not be able to go;
2). Morgan MIGHT be great, but they'd be fools to count on that as a rookie;
3). Deeb, despite the "romantic vision" of his indomitable workout ethic, is not yet ready;
4). Randolph, although a real talent, doesn't exactly look like a true MLB;
and 5). Ben Councell is big, fast, relatively proven, veteran-knowledgeable, instinctive, good filler-tackler, and perfect in passing situations already.

So.....
 

Whiskeyjack

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How ironic that in transitioning from a 3-4 to a 4-3, the only area we're desperately thin is MIDDLE LINEBACKER.
 
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GoIrish41

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Ben Councell at MLB? Yeah..... no. Seems much better suited for SAM than MIKE in 4-3.

I think it will depend on Van Gorder's scheme, no? We've yet to see anything outside of the Spring Game (which was vanilla) with regard to how he will deploy his linebackers and DL. Maybe a more athletic guy like Councell will thrive in that roll. And if that is the case, maybe Morgan, who is even more of an athletic freak than Councell will pick up the scheme by mid season and take over in the middle. I really don't think we can look at last year's defense and make any substanative projections on who will fit into which position until we see the product on the field and watch how the pieces are used. Just my opinion.
 

IrishLax

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I think it will depend on Van Gorder's scheme, no? We've yet to see anything outside of the Spring Game (which was vanilla) with regard to how he will deploy his linebackers and DL. Maybe a more athletic guy like Councell will thrive in that roll. And if that is the case, maybe Morgan, who is even more of an athletic freak than Councell will pick up the scheme by mid season and take over in the middle. I really don't think we can look at last year's defense and make any substanative projections on who will fit into which position until we see the product on the field and watch how the pieces are used. Just my opinion.

Nothing really to do with what we've seen/haven't seen. I just don't see any way that someone the size of Councell can play ILB. Not even in a 3-4, but he'd have a better chance there. He's got your classic OLB or rush DE build at 6'4"+ 250+... Kiko Alonso is about as tall as you get for a MLB at 6'3"... can't think of any taller. You just don't usually have the quickness/agility/short burst speed above that.

So I agree with your general premise about position projections site unseen, but at the same time you don't need to know anything about scheme to know that it's quite rare to have someone with Councell's build playing inside. Can anyone think of some in the NFL that I'm forgetting?
 

Emcee77

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You know who I think could be a kickass ILB if Grace can't go and we need more help there?

Ty Isaac.
 

GoIrish41

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Nothing really to do with what we've seen/haven't seen. I just don't see any way that someone the size of Councell can play ILB. Not even in a 3-4, but he'd have a better chance there. He's got your classic OLB or rush DE build at 6'4"+ 250+... Kiko Alonso is about as tall as you get for a MLB at 6'3"... can't think of any taller. You just don't usually have the quickness/agility/short burst speed above that.

So I agree with your general premise about position projections site unseen, but at the same time you don't need to know anything about scheme to know that it's quite rare to have someone with Councell's build playing inside. Can anyone think of some in the NFL that I'm forgetting?

Erlacker?
 

IrishLax

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Erlacker?

Awesome pull. Played at almost exactly the same build as Councell. Although Urlacher was a freak that transitioned from safety to linebacker, whereas Councell was primarily considered a DE coming out of HS. So I don't know if he's got the fluidity to do what Urlacher did.
 

Luckylucci

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Nothing really to do with what we've seen/haven't seen. I just don't see any way that someone the size of Councell can play ILB. Not even in a 3-4, but he'd have a better chance there. He's got your classic OLB or rush DE build at 6'4"+ 250+... Kiko Alonso is about as tall as you get for a MLB at 6'3"... can't think of any taller. You just don't usually have the quickness/agility/short burst speed above that.

So I agree with your general premise about position projections site unseen, but at the same time you don't need to know anything about scheme to know that it's quite rare to have someone with Councell's build playing inside. Can anyone think of some in the NFL that I'm forgetting?

I agree with what your saying but since you asked. Luke Kuechly is 6'3 and a pretty long MLB. However, I'd call him the exception not the rule. I think 6'3 is about as tall as a MLB is going to get.
 

Emcee77

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Urlacher is a great call, but I think Lax's original point remains. Councell is a prototypical OLB/DE and not really a great profile fit at ILB. I'd love to keep Councell outside.

But plenty of guys play against type, and if Kelly and the coaches think Councell can play ILB, so do I.
 

ozzman

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Urlacher is a great call, but I think Lax's original point remains. Councell is a prototypical OLB/DE and not really a great profile fit at ILB. I'd love to keep Councell outside.

But plenty of guys play against type, and if Kelly and the coaches think Councell can play ILB, so do I.

I always thought Urlacher was out of position at MLB. Sure he excelled and was a freak, but I think had he slid outside he would have been even better.
 
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Urlacher is a great call, but I think Lax's original point remains. Councell is a prototypical OLB/DE and not really a great profile fit at ILB. I'd love to keep Councell outside.

But plenty of guys play against type, and if Kelly and the coaches think Councell can play ILB, so do I.

The Mad Stork, Ted Hendricks was used in an unconventional manner at linebacker. Too small to play end(issued #83), too tall to play linebacker, Hendricks was too good to keep off of the field. Quarterback hurries, pass deflections, and sacks, to go along with blocked kicks, safties, interceptions, tackles for loss, and fumble recoveries. Too hell with prototypical size. Put your best athletes on the field, and they will find ways to make their presence felt!
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Interesting that Councell is 6'5", and Isaac and Grace are 6'3"-6'4".
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Jack Lambert was 6'-5" :)

No he wasn't. He looked it (because he was so skinny) but he wasn't. My then brother-in-law was 6'3" exactly. Jack was just a shade taller. Some listed him at 6'4". But I saw Jack and Bob together a number of times and they were always nearly the same height.
 

ulukinatme

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It's not like we're better suited to stay in the 3-4 though. NT in a 3-4 is just as important, and probably more so, than MLB in the 4-3. Any 3-4 gurus will tell you that it all starts with NT in that scheme, and shortly after that you need good MLBs too. We've just really whiffed on our NTs the last few cycles. On the plus side, we should have some talent at MLB coming up, we're just going to be young there.
 

kmoose

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It's not like we're better suited to stay in the 3-4 though. NT in a 3-4 is just as important, and probably more so, than MLB in the 4-3. Any 3-4 gurus will tell you that it all starts with NT in that scheme, and shortly after that you need good MLBs too. We've just really whiffed on our NTs the last few cycles. On the plus side, we should have some talent at MLB coming up, we're just going to be young there.

Like I said in the other thread....... I think that maybe Sheldon Day would make a better NoseGuard, than any one of our linebackers would make, a Middle Linebacker. Perhaps not in the long run, but for 2014.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I'm just saying......... it might be ironic, but it's not a surprise. Or, at least, it shouldn't be. Hopefully, Grace will be healthy enough, and talented enough, to make a difference.

Certainly didn't surprise me. But if we'd had optimal ILB depth prior to the switch (7-8), we'd currently be trying to turn ILBs into OLBs. I view it as a pretty serious indictment of Diaco's defensive recruiting that we're having to do the opposite instead.
 

dshans

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I cannot type on my smart phone for the life of me. :)

Don't despair. I couldn't type for shit on my Royal manual, IBM Selectric and can't on any computer keyboard.

Hell, I think I single-handedly kept White Out and Erasable Typing Paper in business for years.

My fingers are far too stiff and inaccurate to even think about trying to type on phone, be it smart or dumb as shit.

I'm old (and wise???) enough to plow through, ignore and interpret obvious, simple typographical errors.

The Grammar Hammer is reserved for egregious missteps, possible humorous (?) quips and petty squabbles.

It ain't no big thang ...
 

ulukinatme

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Like I said in the other thread....... I think that maybe Sheldon Day would make a better NoseGuard, than any one of our linebackers would make, a Middle Linebacker. Perhaps not in the long run, but for 2014.

Eh, I don't know. Sheldon Day seems to have the look and build of a 4-3 DT. I don't think he has the size and strength to regularly command double teams like Nix could. Your 3-4 NT absolutely must command double teams, otherwise the scheme doesn't work. The fact we struck out on NTs the last few recruiting cycles is reason #1 that we're switching to a 4-3 and we'll probably be better off in recruiting as a result. It's very difficult to convince bright kids to come to Notre Dame to eat double teams for four years with little on the stat sheet.
 

kmoose

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Eh, I don't know. Sheldon Day seems to have the look and build of a 4-3 DT. I don't think he has the size and strength to regularly command double teams like Nix could. Your 3-4 NT absolutely must command double teams, otherwise the scheme doesn't work. The fact we struck out on NTs the last few recruiting cycles is reason #1 that we're switching to a 4-3 and we'll probably be better off in recruiting as a result. It's very difficult to convince bright kids to come to Notre Dame to eat double teams for four years with little on the stat sheet.

In terms of size, you'd like your nose tackle to be in the 6'-6'3" range, and be North of 300 lbs. Day is currently listed as 6'2", 290lbs. So he is not ideal for a Nose Tackle, but he's not far off. And, if he can maintain his quickness, he would command those double teams.
 

Luckylucci

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How was he put in an unfair a awkward position? He didn't indentify the underneath route fast enough, got too deep of a drop, and had no chance to make the tackle. Obviously, that RB is faster than Grace, he's faster than almost, if not all MLB's. However if you put yourself in the right spot with the depth of your drop or recognizing the route you'd be able to make the tackle.
 

IrishLax

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How was he put in an unfair a awkward position? He didn't indentify the underneath route fast enough, got too deep of a drop, and had no chance to make the tackle. Obviously, that RB is faster than Grace, he's faster than almost, if not all MLB's. However if you put yourself in the right spot with the depth of your drop or recognizing the route you'd be able to make the tackle.

Yeah but if he jumps the route and Saunders instead goes vertical...

IMO, the issue is that you had a great play call against the defense we had on the field. Have to have ILB on the field on 3rd and 3... they identified the mismatch and hit it. Bigger mistake was Ishaq (who was asked to drop into a shallow zone) not doing a good job in coverage and failing to get involved in the play at all... and Austin Collinsworth being flat out slow. No way you're stopping the 1st down but a small gain versus big gain is due to mental and athletic failures of other players.
 

EuropeanDomer

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How was he put in an unfair a awkward position? He didn't indentify the underneath route fast enough, got too deep of a drop, and had no chance to make the tackle. Obviously, that RB is faster than Grace, he's faster than almost, if not all MLB's. However if you put yourself in the right spot with the depth of your drop or recognizing the route you'd be able to make the tackle.

There were ten players without a four yard cushion from the LOS, however, Saunders had a free release and an easy, really easy mismach with Grace to have a free way to the end zone.

I cant blame Diaco for plays like this (Shumate) : http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/8a7d7acfdbb4e2e5a53601f6512fd791.gif. Farley (two plays after): http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/farley_95b13b0c819038da7076ac327780d635.gif but that play was a mess and probably, at that point, cost the game.
 
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