Russia Invades Ukraine

Blazers46

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Their propaganda is shockingly bad. Like literally no one with half a brain believes this to be true. "We're committing war crimes against civilians to stop genocide."


Maybe. But winners write the history books. Like an officer told me the other day, “if you kill someone claim self defense, it’s your word against theirs”.

People with “half brains” exist. We don’t have to have to look far to see this. Nobody will help. Ukraine will fall. Gaslight the hell out of them, maybe give them a stimulus check and let them use whatever pronouns they want and call it a day.
 

Cackalacky2.0

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Either:
1. All of Europe/US leaders are spineless and short sighted.
2. There is back channeling that they want to declare a "successful" military operation and then GTFO.

I wouldn't trust #2, and I think it's probably #1. Boris Johnson saying "we can't establish a no fly zone because that'll bring us into direct conflict with Russia." ....OK? Kennedy could've said the same thing when he put a blockade in front of Cuba. But he didn't. He knew you show strength not weakness if you want results.
I have to think that with Ukraine's EU application being voted on in a few hours, this has changed the calculus. How I dont know but I have a hard time believing they admit UK into the EU only for them to not help militarily. Makes zero sense
 

Whiskeyjack

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These fools. Just like when Hitler hit Czechoslovakia. They hide in their beds thinking it will all pass them by.
Hitler didn't have nukes, and western Europe wasn't already committed to the common defense through NATO. You really need to let go of the Nazi analogies. It's a truly terrible comparison.
Either:
1. All of Europe/US leaders are spineless and short sighted.
2. There is back channeling that they want to declare a "successful" military operation and then GTFO.

I wouldn't trust #2, and I think it's probably #1. Boris Johnson saying "we can't establish a no fly zone because that'll bring us into direct conflict with Russia." ....OK? Kennedy could've said the same thing when he put a blockade in front of Cuba. But he didn't. He knew you show strength not weakness if you want results.
There's a world of difference between blockading a Soviet client state and taking direct military action against a nuclear-armed Russia.
 

NorthDakota

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What's the point of sending planes to Ukraine? Does Ukraine have a surplus of pilots?
 

Cackalacky2.0

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Hitler didn't have nukes, and western Europe wasn't already committed to the common defense through NATO. You really need to let go of the Nazi analogies. It's a truly terrible comparison.

There's a world of difference between blockading a Soviet client state and taking direct military action against a nuclear-armed Russia.
I posted an article earlier today with Fiona Hill who takes this position. She says Putin will use whats at his disposal and he wants the whole world to know it. She also says that we are in WWIII but are failing to accept it. Its a good interview with pretty much our governments top Russia intelligenista.
 

NDPhilly

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Videos coming out of Ukraine this morning showing a clear escalation against non-military targets by the Russians. Bombing of urban centers in Kyiv and Kharkiv.
 

Cackalacky2.0

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Videos coming out of Ukraine this morning showing a clear escalation against non-military targets by the Russians. Bombing of urban centers in Kyiv and Kharkiv.
They are also apparently using cluster bombs and thermobarics indiscriminately against civilian locations.
 

ACamp1900

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Been waiting for this,... the 'ND loses by fifty' guy is a cartoon of the cynic and preparing for the worst guy that I actually am.
 

Cackalacky2.0

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Regarding sending planes I found this article which doesn’t really translate to not sending planes. Seems the question is airspace and how to get them to Ukraine without Allies using NATO airspace. Seems more logistical than that they aren’t actually going to deliver them.


Polish President Andrzej Duda spoke ambiguously Tuesday about how or whether those planes would arrive.

“We are not going to send any jets into Ukrainian airspace,” said Duda, who did not indicate if Poland was considering an aircraft transfer over land, or who else might be delivering them.
 
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tussin

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There's a world of difference between blockading a Soviet client state and taking direct military action against a nuclear-armed Russia.
Nuclear deterrence is supposed to work both ways -- Putin shouldn't be allowed to commit crimes against humanity in Ukraine because he has nukes. It is spineless that Western powers won't support Ukraine when NATO itself consists of 3 nuclear powers.

I think what irks me most is that the West is posturing as if it is providing full support while watching Kyiv get bombed into oblivion.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I posted an article earlier today with Fiona Hill who takes this position. She says Putin will use whats at his disposal and he wants the whole world to know it. She also says that we are in WWIII but are failing to accept it. Its a good interview with pretty much our governments top Russia intelligenista.
I saw that. Hill made some good points, but I disagreed with a lot of her comparisons to WWII. The implication there being that taking decisive military action against Putin early is necessary to prevent atrocity later. Russia's ability to wage a conventional war (or even to occupy Ukraine!) isn't remotely comparable to the war machine that Nazi Germany built, and once nukes are on the table, the calculus is radically different.

If you're considering action that would significantly increase the chance of the world ending--even where you still deem that chance to be low--you'd better think long and hard about whether it's worth it. By all means, we should punish Russia with every non-military tool at our disposal (and targeted more at the oligarchs than the Russian people wherever possible). But we've made a lot of implicit security guarantees in the last 30 years that we aren't prepared to risk nuclear war to uphold. Ukraine is one of them.
 
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Irish#1

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ShamrockOnHelmet

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i tend to agree that we are already in WW3, whether anyone chooses to admit it or not. The fronts are different; cyberspace and economic warfare, but we have arrived regardless.

the simple truth is there’s only one way this truly ends positively, and that’s internal Russian popular revolt. The one and only place Putin will not nuke is Russia, so the end must come from within, or it won’t come at all. I’m hopeful seeing reports of Belarusian and Chechen forces (whose “countries” are effectively Russian-regime territories) aligning against the Russian regime, but the Russian people themselves have to act if we have any real hope of ending this without a nuclear wasteland
 

Whiskeyjack

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Nuclear deterrence is supposed to work both ways -- Putin shouldn't be allowed to commit crimes against humanity in Ukraine because he has nukes. It is spineless that Western powers won't support Ukraine when NATO itself consists of 3 nuclear powers.

I think what irks me most is that the West is posturing as if it is providing full support while watching Kyiv get bombed into oblivion.
Since the Cold War began, these are the unwritten rules of MAD:
  • Nuclear-armed powers do not engage in direct military operations against each other.
  • Article 5 of NATO extends the protection that rule affords its 3 nuclear-armed members (US, UK and France) to its other 27 members.
  • A nuclear-armed power can war directly against the client state of another nuclear-armed power, or indirectly by providing materiel, resources, diplomatic support, etc.
Russia's war against Ukraine doesn't violate any of those rules. But any NATO country taking direct military action to stop it would.

That doesn't mean that Russia can do whatever it wants. But when it comes to our military options, it really does boil down to "Are we willing to risk the end of the world to stop this by force?" And the answer has to be no here. Short of finding a way to preemptively disarm Russia's ICBMs, the risks involved far outweigh the benefits.
 

FDNYIrish1

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Russia is going to steamroll. This was never a fair fight. I have a tremendous respect for the way Ukraine has resisted, but this scumbag Putin is going to overwhelm them. At this point guerilla tactics in an urban environment are all that’s left. It saddens me tremendously to watch what’s going on there.
 

IrishLax

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Since the Cold War began, these are the unwritten rules of MAD:
  • Nuclear-armed powers do not engage in direct military operations against each other.
  • Article 5 of NATO extends the protection that rule affords its 3 nuclear-armed members (US, UK and France) to its other 27 members.
  • A nuclear-armed power can war directly against the client state of another nuclear-armed power, or indirectly by providing materiel, resources, diplomatic support, etc.
Russia's war against Ukraine doesn't violate any of those rules. But any NATO country taking direct military action to stop it would.

That doesn't mean that Russia can do whatever it wants. But when it comes to our military options, it really does boil down to "Are we willing to risk the end of the world to stop this by force?" And the answer has to be no here. Short of finding a way to preemptively disarm Russia's ICBMs, the risks involved far outweigh the benefits.
Then you "sell" a few dozen drones to Ukraine and let CIA operators fly them if need be. This shit really isn't that complicated. Either you're willing to stand up to Putin now, or you're willing to let him conquer any territory that isn't a part of NATO.
 

tussin

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Then you "sell" a few dozen drones to Ukraine and let CIA operators fly them if need be. This shit really isn't that complicated. Either you're willing to stand up to Putin now, or you're willing to let him conquer any territory that isn't a part of NATO.
It was truly shocking to me that we had satellite images of a 40 mile convoy rolling towards Kyiv to destroy everything and no one was willing to do anything to stop it. Building on your drone point, I refuse to believe that NATO powers have no covert options to support Ukraine militarily. At a certain point, the public understanding will shift from "we stand with Ukraine" to the reality that we feel bad but it's "below our line."

1646153000887.png
 

Whiskeyjack

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Then you "sell" a few dozen drones to Ukraine and let CIA operators fly them if need be. This shit really isn't that complicated. Either you're willing to stand up to Putin now, or you're willing to let him conquer any territory that isn't a part of NATO.
That's doable. They've got plenty of our equipment already, and providing them with some "consultants" to train their military on properly operating it is SOP.

Yes, Putin's apparently much more aggressive and unstable than our leaders had previously thought. But capability is just as important as intent when deciding how to deter an opponent, and while he's capable of making a mess in Russia's near abroad, he's not capable of rolling tanks through western Europe currently.

Hopefully we make this Ukrainian campaign so expensive for him in blood, treasure and reputation that the Baltic states will seem far more trouble than they're worth. And while we shouldn't have been caught flat-footed in Ukraine, we'll have a much better idea now of how to prepare Russia's other vulnerable neighbors to repel Putin.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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It was truly shocking to me that we had satellite images of a 40 mile convoy rolling towards Kyiv to destroy everything and no one was willing to do anything to stop it. Building on your drone point, I refuse to believe that NATO powers have no covert options to support Ukraine militarily. At a certain point, the public understanding will shift from "we stand with Ukraine" to the reality that we feel bad but it's "below our line."

View attachment 3050381
With the current state of satellite and surveillance technology, it is harder than ever to take covert military action that isn't easily identifiable as a US operation. I'm certain we had American drone pilots in Germany who were itching to light that column up. But that's not meaningfully different than sending an AC-130 with a giant American flag painted on the side to destroy it. It would be an open declaration of war against a nuclear-armed opponent, which is something we simply do not do under the current rules of engagement. Has nothing to do with a lack of concern for Ukraine.
 

Cackalacky2.0

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Then you "sell" a few dozen drones to Ukraine and let CIA operators fly them if need be. This shit really isn't that complicated. Either you're willing to stand up to Putin now, or you're willing to let him conquer any territory that isn't a part of NATO.
Ukraine has at least a dozen or more Turkish made UAVs.
 

irishog77

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Then you "sell" a few dozen drones to Ukraine and let CIA operators fly them if need be. This shit really isn't that complicated. Either you're willing to stand up to Putin now, or you're willing to let him conquer any territory that isn't a part of NATO.
I'm sort of here.

3 big questions I have regarding all this are:

1) What is actually on the table for nato against putin? He's not kim jong un. He's not some totally batshit crazy dictator. Contrary to the narratives that portray him as that now, he's been a known entity for 20 years.

2) At what point do we hold the russian people responsible and accountable? If putin is the unhinged dictator he's now being painted as, then we/nato/the russian people really should take him out (yeah, yeah, I understand the "devil you know" theory, but that is now out the window if you're supposedly a crazy man). Again, we're not dealing with kim jong un or saddam hussein where the people are mired in abject poverty and oppression. If the russian people aren't willing to change their country's self-selected lot in life, then I'm not sure nato can.

3) What's the line in the sand putin can't cross? I mean's it certainly not invading Ukraine. We knew this was coming for months, and weren't even able to get putin to 2nd guess that. Will current sanctions make him think twice about invading/annexing the next country? Maybe. But current sanctions will also give him time to regroup and reorganize.
 

Sea Turtle

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Maybe 1 million 'volunteers' from the EU should pour into Ukraine like those Chinese did in the Korean war.
 
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